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The_Bammo
The Unraveling of the US Military

In a recent speech at Fort Bragg, a major U.S. military base, president Bush declared, "There is no higher calling than service in our armed forces." It seems fewer and fewer young Americans and their parents agree with him. The U.S. military is finding it increasingly difficult to sustain itself. This is despite what at first sight should be fruitful conditions for military recruitment: the events of Sept. 11 and the fears about terrorism; the argument by the Bush administration that the global war on terrorism must be fought in Afghanistan and Iraq and other such faraway places, or it will end up having to be fought at home; and America's ongoing wars that bring to the screens daily stories of heroic "warriors" liberating and defending the innocent.

The_Bammo
Troop Shortages

Newspapers describe the U.S. Army as "facing one of the greatest recruiting challenges in its history." The U.S. military is deeply worried. General Barry McCaffrey, now a professor at the West Point, wrote in the Wall Street Journalthat the U.S. is in a "race against time" in Iraq because of the strains on the military – the military is "starting to unravel." He argues that, "The U.S. Army and the Marines are too under-manned and under-resourced to sustain this security policy beyond next fall." The consequences are great. For McCaffrey, the U.S. military in Iraq is "the crown jewel of our national security guarantee to the American people in the war on terror." This threatens the future of the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as McCaffrey puts it, "Failure would be a disaster for U.S. foreign policy and economic interests for the next 20 years."

Sending in more troops, the American solution year after year in the Vietnam War, does not seem to be an option. President Bush has said that he would send more troops to Iraq if the military commanders in the field asked for them. He claims that they have not done so. But others suggest a more serious obstacle. Senator Harry Reid (D-Nev.), the Senate minority leader, has said that U.S. military commanders in Iraq have told him that they need more troops but they know none are available. Reed has said, "The conclusion I reach is that they know the soldiers aren't there, so why ask for something you know doesn't exist?"

A recent study by the RAND Corporation, a military think-tank, "Stretched Thin: Army Forces for Sustained Operations" found that the troop shortage in the Army is so severe that it calls into question the Pentagon's policy of being able to fight two major regional wars at the same time while also having sufficient soldiers for the war on terrorism and providing security in America. A recent meeting of the National Governors' Association, which brings together the governors of the states, registered the governors' concern that deployment of National Guard soldiers in Iraq was leaving their states unable to deal with possible natural disasters and other emergencies, with one governor exclaiming that "we don't have personnel – whether it is full time or part time – to take care of all the needs and concerns of Americans."

The_Bammo
Recruitment Problems

Little of this seems to resonate with the public. So far this year, the U.S. Army is reported to be 40 percent short of its recruitment target. The Army has failed to meet its monthly recruiting goals in each of the preceding four months. In mid-July, the U.S. military reported that the Army National Guard, which makes up more than one-third of the U.S. soldiers in Iraq, had missed its recruiting goal for the ninth straight month. This was an understatement of the larger trend. The Army National Guard has apparently missed its recruiting targets for at least 17 of the last 18 months.

U.S. Army Chief of Staff General Peter Schoomaker told the Senate "We've got enormous challenges" when it comes to recruitment of new soldiers. The Army's goal of 80,000 new recruits for this year "is at serious risk," and next year "may be the toughest recruiting environment ever." These recruiting problems, he believes, are likely to stretch "well into the future."

These problems are despite the enormous incentives now being offered to join the military. There is a joining bonus of $90,000 paid over three years, of which $20,000 is in cash and $70,000 in benefits, along with a canceling of the loans many a young American must take to afford to go to college. There are reports also that people almost 40 years old are now eligible to join the military, and that the physical and intellectual standards for recruits have been lowered.

The fall in recruitment is strongest in the African-American community (12 percent of the U.S. population) and among women. African-Americans made up almost a quarter of Army recruits in 2000, now their numbers have fallen to less than 14 percent. The number of women Army recruits has dropped from 22 percent in 2000 to about 17 percent. Women make up about 15 percent of the military in total.

The_Bammo
The Military Path to Citizenship

About 7 percent of the U.S. military are not citizens. There are about 30,000 foreign soldiers in the U.S. military from more than 100 countries; more than a third are Hispanic. To encourage recruitment, in 2002 the Bush administration made it easier for foreign-born U.S. troops to become naturalized citizens. Now, any legal resident who joins the military can immediately petition for citizenship rather than wait the five years required for civilians to start this process. They do not even have to pay the several hundred dollar fee for this process. As an added incentive, if a foreign-born soldier who is a U.S. citizen dies in the line of duty, the foreign-born members of his or her family can now seek citizenship, even if they are not legal residents. It is also possible for soldiers to be made citizens after they have died in service and for their families to then become eligible for citizenship.

Despite all this, the numbers of non-citizens joining the military is falling fast. The number has fallen by 20 percent since 2001. It is not slowing down, as much of the decline came last year.

It is not just those would be foot soldiers who are staying away. Those with the most to defend are less willing to do so. Army's Reserve Officers' Training Corps, which trains and commissions more than 60 percent of the new Army officers each year, has been facing similar problems. It now has the fewest participants in nearly a decade, with recruitment having fallen by more than 16 percent over the past two years. In a recent article in Harpers, Lewis Lapham pointed out that there is a longer-term process at work here, noting that almost half of the 1956 graduating class from Princeton University went into the military (400 out of a total of 900 students), but from the class of 2004, there were only nine students who joined out of a class of 1,100.

The children of America's elite see no future for themselves in the military. And there are some soldiers who see this. The story is told of a U.S. Marine who returned to California after a tour of duty in Iraq and was invited to speak at a "gated community" in Malibu as a war hero. He told his audience "I am not a hero. … Guys like me are just a necessary part of things. To maintain this way of life in a fine community like this, you need psychos like us to go and drop a bomb on somebody's house."

In its efforts to find out why there are now such problems with recruitment, the Army called in the research company Millward Brown to do a study. It found that the resistance was due to popular objection to the war in Iraq, the casualties, and media coverage of the torture at Abu Ghraib. The study reportedly concluded that, "Reasons for not considering military service are increasingly based on objections to the Iraq situation and aversion to the military."

In short, the Bush administration has failed to make its case for the war in Iraq. Now, people see and read about what really happens in war, and towns and cities are facing the reality of the 1,900 or so American military deaths and well over 14,000 wounded so far in Iraq. A June 2005 Gallup poll found that in the past five years the proportion of Americans who said they would support their child's entering the military has fallen from two-thirds to about half. This has not all happened spontaneously. Across the U.S., there is a growing campaign against military recruitment that is bringing parents, teachers, and peace activists to protect students from military recruiters.

The_Bammo
Retention Also a Problem

It is not just recruitment. The military has been having problems keeping its soldiers. Almost 30 percent of new recruits leave within six months. Some of this is at least due to the vast gap between the day-to-day experiences of young people before they join up and the life of a recruit during training. Stories talk of recruits who "can't eat, they literally vomit every time they put a spoon in their mouths, they're having nightmares." Bonuses are being offered to encourage soldiers to re-enlist once their service is over. It is reported that re-enlistment bonuses can be as high as $150,000, depending on the specialty and length of re-enlistment.

Some reports suggest the Army has started to lower its standards for soldier performance, and so reduce losses. The Wall Street Journal has reported a military memo directing commanders not to dismiss soldiers for poor fitness, unsatisfactory performance, or even for pregnancy, alcoholism, and drug abuse.

There are problems with desertion. The Pentagon has admitted that more than 5,500 soldiers have deserted since the start of the Iraq war. In comparison, 1,509 deserted in 1995. The cases that have become public have said that they did so because they are opposed to the war. A telephone hotline to help soldiers who want to leave the military has reported that the number of calls it is receiving is now double of what it was in 2001 – the hotline answered 33,000 calls last year.

The_Bammo
A New Army of Mercenaries?

Max Boot, a prominent military commentator, named among "the 500 most influential people in the United States in the field of foreign policy," has offered his solution for the problem of finding people to fight America's wars. In a recent article, Boot proposed that the path to a bigger American Army lay in offering a new deal, "Defend America, Become American." Boot has proposed that the U.S. should look beyond just U.S. citizens and permanent, legal residents for soldiers to fight in its military.

He has proposed a "Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors Act," a DREAM Act, as he puts it, that would offer legal status to the children of illegal immigrants residing in the U.S. and eligibility for citizenship if they can meet a number of conditions, including graduating from high school, and if they go to college or choose to serve in the military. A bill to this effect was introduced in the U.S. Senate but has not been voted on yet.

Even this may not be enough, though. Like many others who argue that America should embrace fully and enthusiastically its imperialism, Boot believes there is a need to dramatically increase the size of the U.S. military, and military spending will have to rise to pay for an Army able to put and keep troops on the ground in faraway countries. He has proposed that the U.S. should "offer citizenship to anyone, anywhere on the planet, willing to serve a set term in the U.S. military."

Boot asks, "Would foreigners sign up to fight for Uncle Sam? I don't see why not, because so many people are desperate to move here. Serving a few years in the military would seem a small price to pay and it would establish beyond a doubt that they are the kind of motivated, hardworking immigrants we want." The nightmare of war is offered as the prelude to the "American dream."

vfguenley
Great post Bammo, the point is a valid one, we also need to think about how do we stop this destructive trend from continuing, firing geo bush might not be enough.
ghostgovt
There ya go... the downsizing of the military involves the cunning planning by Sec of Def Rumsfield for switching many militray duties over to the PMFs, another big business brainstorm. Read further in this article to see how flawed this idea is even though it does allow for more unaccountability for the BushCons.




http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0428-01.htm

Published on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 by the Statesman / Calcutta, India

Soldiers on Hire - Part 2
by Huck Gutman


Private Military Firms (PMFs) allow placing many of the costs of the Iraq occupation “off budget.” In the USA, as in all democracies, funding for government activities is ultimately in the hands of the people, through their elected representatives in legislative bodies.

But the 20,000 international PMF employees in Iraq (equal to over 15 per cent of the official US military presence of 130,000 soldiers) are off budget. They are not listed as military defense. Instead, they are paid out of the money budgeted for Iraqi reconstruction. Recent government estimates are that as much as one quarter of the $18 billion budgeted for reconstruction will be paid to those who perform military operations of one sort or another. That means money dedicated to rebuilding schools and hospitals will, instead, fill the coffers of private firms that supply guards, analysts, security, convoy protection.

In merchandising, this technique is called “bait and switch” and is widely used by unscrupulous salesman: offer something at an announced price, and substitute another item of either inferior quality, or higher price. Offer reconstruction, substitute military and paramilitary activity. In the marketplace, bait and switch tactics are illegal. That does not seem to hold for White House policies in Iraqi military affairs.

Second, hiring private military firms bails out the questionable defense. policies of secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld. Contrary to the advice of his generals, the secretary insisted on downsizing the military. His vision is of a corporate military, and so he imitates the efficiencies put in place by modern multinational corporations. On one level, he is merely continuing what his predecessors in the defense department did, and indeed what every imperial power has done for many centuries: he has moved toward further mechanizing warfare. For Rumsfeld, it is not just that killing efficiency – horrible term, horrible concept – is enhanced by mechanization: the automated battlefield can work like an automated factory, so that less workers are needed. Secretary Rumsfeld has been insistent that the US military can be downsized. And not just by, for example, using fully automated drones instead of bombers with crews, or substituting laser-sighted weapons in the hands of two or three soldiers in a Humvee instead of sending forth a platoon of men.

Rumsfeld has tried his utmost to privatize the US military. For him, following corporate strategy, downsizing means moving to “just in time” hiring, using private firms to provide what the military formerly did for itself. He has insisted that it makes no fiscal sense to keep and pay for a well-trained standing army, when the USA can purchase every sort of service on an “open market” whenever there is a need for military action. Why should soldiers, in Rumsfeld’s view, cook for themselves, move their trash, provide supplies, run and maintain their technology – why not privatize these activities? Even in the case of actually military duty – guarding public officials from hostile attack, fighting guerrilla assaults – much of what soldiers traditionally do can be performed by the mercenaries hired by private firms. All of these services can be hired only when needed, and the army can be kept small, and hence inexpensive in terms of manpower. Weapons systems, produced at high profit by huge corporations, are another matter: cost efficiency here seems to be of little or no concern.

(Rumsfeld’s strategy may well be flawed, which is why the use of PWFs is so suspect, since in the US vernacular PWFs allow him to cover his behind. In Iraq today, US forces are stretched thin. That situation was highlighted recently when tens of thousands of soldiers slated to come home after a year’s term in Iraq found those returns cancelled, some as they were on their way to the airport for a flight home. US troops have discovered, contrary to both planning and promises, that their presence in an increasingly hostile war zone has been extended. Additionally, the defections of Spain, the Dominican Republic and Honduras from the US “alliance” has stretched the US forces so thin that Rumsfeld’s downsized army is further unprepared to fight the rising Iraqi insurgency.)

Thus, the privatized military forces cover up the flaws in Rumsfeld’s downsizing strategy. Secretary Rumsfeld, today, staves off criticism that his lean military is not able to do what it has to do in Iraq, by paying privatized firms and their subcontractors to do it instead of army or air force personnel. That privatized firms charge more for the activities is of no concern, even though the point behind downsizing was supposedly cost-efficiency.
The_Bammo
U.S. Military To Gay Soldiers: You're Only Good For Wartime

By Staff
Sep 14, 2005, 11:44



American military documents have been uncovered that outline a procedure for delaying a gay soldier's military discharge until after they have participated in "active duty" for the United States. In other words, known gay soldiers who are not good enough for the U.S. military are more than acceptable to fight for their country in a time of war.

The document was released by the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military (CSSMM) on Tuesday. According to 365gay.com the document was discovered by accident during research for a story being prepared for the American television network, ABC.

It has been a well known public secret that the American military's policy on gay recruits and personnel is 'don't ask, don't tell'. If a person's homosexuality is made public, that person will be 'discharged for homosexual conduct' from the military.

Despite the U.S. military's continued denial of such a regulation, the 1999 edition of the "Reserve Component Unit Commander's Handbook" clearly states if a person who is gay is awaiting official discharge from the military because of his or her sexuality and the country is involved in a war or conflict at the time, that discharge will not be authorized and the "member will enter active duty with the unit."

The Pentagon also continues to deny that their policy is to send known gays to war or conflict at a time when recruit levels are dwindling but there are countless reports by gay soldiers and activists that known gays are regularly sent into combat situations only to be discharged upon completion of their theatre rotation, a practice which is backed up by military discharge records.

A study released in May of this year by the Congressional Research Service admitted that the discharge of known gays do decline during wartime but goes on to qualify that by explaining that the declines are a result of "random fluctuations in the data" and not an official policy that retains gays during wars and conflicts.

It should be noted that the general American policy on gays not being welcome in the United States military is self-defeating. As reported by a UCLA study, the U.S. military could increase their personnel numbers by as much as 41,000 members if the gay ban was lifted.

http://www.halifaxlive.com/artman/publish/...40905_992.shtml


Marine


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david sobien
Bush should contact the Chinaese to ask if they would please lend us more money. And Marine you should watch out for your military pension and health benifits. Bush needs money and he will say we need to sacrifice. Somehow the defination of "WE" never includes his friends like Steve Forbes or Haliberton.
Marine



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Can Marine mothers save recruiting?
Submitted by: 9th Marine Corps District
Story Identification #: 200584112032
Story by Staff Sgt. Bill Lisbon



RS Des Moines, Iowa (June 30, 2005) -- In a time when Marine recruiters across the country face increasing opposition from their applicants’ parents, some here are turning to their "Moms" for help.

The Moms of the Marines they enlisted, that is.

A recently formed support group made up of area Marine mothers said they would back up recruiters if needed by sharing their own views to teetering or unyielding parents cautious of military service for their kids.

"It’s good for them to know that we have made it through that," said Thea Welke, co-founder and chairman of Marine Moms of the Quad-Cities.

While some parents might be predisposed to disbelieve those they view as nothing more than a slick-dressed salesman, they could be swayed by fellow parents with children already in the Corps, said recruiters here.

"If you think we’re lying, go ask these people who’ve dealt with us before and whose kids are in the Marine Corps and becoming successful," Staff Sgt. Ryan Easton, who leads the Quad-Cities recruiting substation, said he tells parents.

Easton welcomes the group in a challenging recruiting atmosphere.

For five straight months, the Marine Corps has fallen short of it monthly goal for new contracts. Many point the finger at worried parents urging their children to avoid the military, believing signing up earns them a one-way ticket to Iraq and a death sentence.

Even older prospects in their 20s are telling recruiters that they need to ask their parents before signing up, said Easton, despite the fact the Marine Corps doesn’t require anyone 18 or older to get parental consent.

"It’s putting a hurting on us," he said. "We’re essentially having to change everything we’re doing in recruiting."

So far, the Marine Moms haven’t talked to any wary parents, but the group is still evolving, said Mary Lou Keester, another Marine Moms co-founder.

The idea for the local group grew out of recommendations from recruiters as well as Welke’s involvement with online groups for Marine parents. Keester also realized that while her initial connection with the Marines was with her son’s recruiter, there were plenty of other parents in the area, regardless of whether their kids were in the Delayed Entry Program, going through boot camp or deployed to Iraq.

A veteran recruiter in the Quad Cities area, Easton said his substation’s recruiters have enlisted approximately 500 Marines over the past five years. So, in theory, there are just that many parents, most who are likely to see their child’s decision to join the Corps in a positive light.

"It’s going to be a benefit for us in order to give the parents a better feeling about what their kids are going to do," said Easton.

The group’s first meetings in April and May each attracted 15 people, a showing Welke said she’s proud of. Membership is now 25 strong.

Meanwhile, business cards for the group sit on the recruiters’ desks and Easton and his Marines dispense them freely to parents in hopes of squelching apprehension and quite possibly creating a few more Marine Moms.

"It’s just nice to talk to people who understand," Keester said

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf...ht=2,recruiting
Marine
EAD recruiter tears up the streets
Submitted by: 6th Marine Corps District
Story Identification #: 200585112350
Story by Sgt. Eric R. Lucero



ORANGEBURG, S.C. (Aug. 1, 2005) -- Recruiting duty has long been billed as an “independent duty” billet. A recruiter can often count on going an entire month and only see two or three other Marines. This is exactly why recruiters have always formed bonds within their respective recruiting sub-stations and often refer to themselves as “teams.”

They know that when the going gets tough, the Marines on their left or right are the only thing keeping them from hitting rock bottom. But what happens when you’re stationed at a permanent contact station and the only Marine assigned to that office is you? According to Sgt. Demond L. Johnson of PCS Orangeburg, S.C., you just put your head down and charge harder.

Johnson has just completed his sixth month on recruiting duty and although not one of his original goals, he says recruiting has been the most rewarding accomplishment during his time as a Marine.

“It’s definitely not where I saw myself when I enlisted,” he grinned, “and now that I’m here, I can’t see myself anywhere else.”

Johnson first hit the streets as part of the RSS Sumter team while serving as recruiter aide. After six months assisting canvassing recruiters in Sumter, Johnson decided sitting on the sidelines was not enough.

“To tell you the truth, I got tired of watching other Marines receive awards and gain recognition for their efforts,” he said. “I’m so competitive. I didn’t want to sit there and watch other Marines earn awards. I wanted to be recognized as the best.”

Johnson was promoted to sergeant in July of 2004 and submitted his package to become an Extended Active Duty recruiter the very next month. After graduating from Recruiter School, Johnson requested his previous duty station in RSS Sumter. He was granted his wish, with one small hitch. He was assigned to PCS Orangeburg within RSS Sumter. While this may not have been Johnson’s dream come true, he immediately saw it as an opportunity to turn around and area that had traditionally underachieved.

The opportunity to shine while turning PCS Orangeburg into a hotbed for Marine recruiting soon turned to a deep-rooted desire to simply, “help the kids out.”

“I found myself wanting to get these kids off the streets and give them an opportunity that other people may not see in them,” he said. “I wanted to do for them what my recruiter did for me.”

Oddly enough, Johnson’s recruiter is still assigned to RS Columbia. Gunnery Sgt. Nikita Wallace first enlisted Johnson while he was a canvassing recruiter in Sumter. Although Wallace had no impact on Johnson’s request to become a recruiter aide, he did offer a small bit of advise when it came to Johnson’s EAD package to become a canvassing recruiter.

“I think he saw how much it was bothering me to sit on the sidelines at the all-hands and watch other Marines awarded,” Johnson said. “I remember him walking past me after one awards presentation and whispering to me, ‘I know what you’re doing there in Sumter, you do what you got to do.’ He knew I was contemplating becoming a recruiter. I think that did it for me.”

Once graduated from Recruiter School, it didn’t take long for other members of RS Columbia’s command group to notice the potential in Johnson.

“I remember he was extremely quiet and looked confused during his training,” said Master Sgt. Clyde Wilson Jr., Johnson’s recruiter instructor. “It didn’t take long for me to realize he was just waiting for his opportunity to apply what we taught him.”

Since hitting the streets in Orangeburg, Johnson has excelled beyond even his own expectations. In his first six months of recruiting, he wrote 72% of RSS Sumter’s contracts. Johnson was recognized as RS Columbia’s Recruiter of the Month for December 2004. He also received two Meritorious Masts during this time. He has also been recognized by RS Columbia as a, “Heavy Hitter,” for writing five contracts during the month of March.

Through all of his early success and awards, Johnson is most proud of a small, out-of-place, wooden plaque that hangs on his awards wall in much the same manner as a small, three-legged mutt would at the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show.

The plaque reads, “Presented To Sgt. Johnson. Thank you for your hard work and concern for me. Christopher Samuel Williams 2005.”

The plaque was given to Johnson by Christopher’s mother for all the hard work he did for her son. Oddly enough, however, Christopher never was granted enlistment into the Marines.

“There are some kids that just want this so bad,” said Johnson, “and it’s unfortunate for them when they come back unqualified. You look at them and know they would have been a great Marine.”

Christopher Williams took the ASVAB test three times and despite decent grades in high school, he was unable to pass the test. Christopher’s mother however, was most impressed the way Johnson refused to treat her son like just another contract.

“When she gave me the plaque, she just kept telling me she was so glad I treated her son like he was my brother,” said Johnson. “That’s what meant the most to me, because that was one of my goals as a recruiter. I wanted my kids to think of me like they belonged to my family. To me, that’s what the Marine Corps is all about.”

Johnson’s remaining goals are to be meritoriously promoted and become a SNCOIC in charge of RSS Sumter.

“He works the hours, gets the job done and there’s no reason he can’t be meritoriously promoted to staff sergeant at the rate he’s going,” said Wilson.

As far as Johnson’s concerned, that may not be enough.

“Can you be meritoriously promoted to gunny from a sergeant?” he asks while laughing.




http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf...ht=2,recruiting
flydangler
QUOTE(Marine @ Sep 16 2005, 01:10 PM)
Hey Master Guns, I noticed that "mortician" wasn't included in this listing or links. Seems some here posted (with apparent glee) the story of a Marine involved in a shooting incident in MA and all of the articles posted (which methinks I only noticed when quoted by others) stated this Marine was a "mortician", eh? Methinks somethin' don't compute!
nates_daisy
QUOTE(The_Bammo @ Sep 14 2005, 12:57 PM)
Retention Also a Problem

It is not just recruitment. The military has been having problems keeping its soldiers. Almost 30 percent of new recruits leave within six months. Some of this is at least due to the vast gap between the day-to-day experiences of young people before they join up and the life of a recruit during training. Stories talk of recruits who "can't eat, they literally vomit every time they put a spoon in their mouths, they're having nightmares." Bonuses are being offered to encourage soldiers to re-enlist once their service is over. It is reported that re-enlistment bonuses can be as high as $150,000, depending on the specialty and length of re-enlistment.

Some reports suggest the Army has started to lower its standards for soldier performance, and so reduce losses. The Wall Street Journal has reported a military memo directing commanders not to dismiss soldiers for poor fitness, unsatisfactory performance, or even for pregnancy, alcoholism, and drug abuse.

There are problems with desertion. The Pentagon has admitted that more than 5,500 soldiers have deserted since the start of the Iraq war. In comparison, 1,509 deserted in 1995. The cases that have become public have said that they did so because they are opposed to the war. A telephone hotline to help soldiers who want to leave the military has reported that the number of calls it is receiving is now double of what it was in 2001 – the hotline answered 33,000 calls last year.

 

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I was talking to one of my girl friends whose new husband is in a Reserve unit that will deploy to Iraq before Thanksgiving. They have decided NOT to give leave before deployment due to AWOL issues...... sad.gif Fortunatley, she will be able to travel to visit him soon. Otherwise they would simply have to wait until his return from Iraq.......
Marine
QUOTE(nates_daisy @ Sep 18 2005, 01:06 AM)
I was talking to one of my girl friends whose new husband is in a Reserve unit that will deploy to Iraq before Thanksgiving.  They have decided NOT to give leave before deployment due to AWOL issues...... sad.gif  Fortunatley, she will be able to travel to visit him soon.  Otherwise they would simply have to wait until his return from Iraq.......
*

I'd like to point out that what Bammo posted is a play on words, if you will carefully examine what he says it compares the number of desertions since the beginning of the war to the number of desertions in 1995.

Number one, it is deceptive to compare the total number of desertions over a two and a half year period to a twelve month period.

Number two, arbitrarily choosing 1995 as the 12 month period for comparison is deceptive because total desertions reached an all time low in 1995.

I appreciate the Bammo providing articles like this because it supports the contention that the anti-war movement has reached the point of desparation where they are willing to use deception to try and gain support for their cause.

I would assume your friend's husband is in the 4th Marine Division since you refered to him as a reserve unit. The 4th Marine Division is already in Iraq, do you suppose he's just not trying to have his wife worry about him?
nates_daisy
QUOTE(Marine @ Sep 18 2005, 04:10 AM)
I would assume your friend's husband is in the 4th Marine Division since you refered to him as a reserve unit.  The 4th Marine Division is already in Iraq, do you suppose he's just not trying to have his wife worry about him?
*


Actually its a National Guard unit that got called up. blink.gif He is now active, of course. They are at a Georgia training base and were to be sent to the Mississippi prior to deploying but Katrina has delayed that, so it has set back the deployment just enough for her to squeeze in another visit smile.gif . Its too bad that everyone's leave is being cut just cause of some people not returning. sad.gif Course this is one of the units where people were offered a big signing bonus to continue and then if they didnt take it, they were held in anyway by a provision extending their service time. Maybe they are having morale problems?

As for the issue of desertion, I am sure that many people are conflicted about their service and I think each person must resolve those issues for themselves. I am so glad I turned down the offers the military made me because I know I am much better off as a teacher.

Where are you stationed? My brother is at Camp Pendleton. He is not deployable for another year or two after his next surgery, but thinks maybe he will go and do training units in Afganistan when he is. We are keeping our fingers crossed he will get promoted to Staff Sargent this month thumbsup.gif.
Marine
QUOTE(nates_daisy @ Sep 18 2005, 12:49 PM)
Actually its a National Guard unit that got called up.  blink.gif   He is now active, of course.  They are at a Georgia training base and were to be sent to the Mississippi prior to deploying but Katrina has delayed that, so it has set back the deployment just enough for her to squeeze in another visit smile.gif .  Its too bad that everyone's leave is being cut just cause of some people not returning.  sad.gif  Course this is one of the units where people were offered a big signing bonus to continue and then if they didnt take it, they were held in anyway by a provision extending their service time.  Maybe they are having morale problems?

As for the issue of desertion, I am sure that many people are conflicted about their service and I think each person must resolve those issues for themselves.  I am so glad I turned down the offers the military made me because I know I am much better off as a teacher.

Where are you stationed?  My brother is at Camp Pendleton.  He is not deployable for another year or two after his next surgery, but thinks maybe he will go and do training units in Afganistan when he is.  We are keeping our fingers crossed he will get promoted to Staff Sargent this month thumbsup.gif.
*

Well, in a little under two months I will have been retired for five years. I served a shade ove 30 years and was stationed at Pendleton twice. I spent most of my time in Fleet Marine Force Atlantic, mostly Camp LeJuene North Carolina. I was an E-5 Sergeant for so long(1974 to 1978 doh.gif ) I thought for a while that would be the best I'd ever be but I hung in there and made E-9 Master Gunery Sergeant at 24 years. Tell your brother to hang in there, the rank will come.
nates_daisy
QUOTE(Marine @ Sep 18 2005, 03:06 PM)
Well, in a little under two months I will have been retired for five years.  I served a shade ove 30 years and was stationed at Pendleton twice.  I spent most of my time in Fleet Marine Force Atlantic, mostly Camp LeJuene North Carolina.  I was an E-5 Sergeant for so long(1974 to 1978 doh.gif ) I thought for a while that would be the best I'd ever be but I hung in there and made E-9 Master Gunery Sergeant at 24 years.  Tell your brother to hang in there, the rank will come.
*


He wants to seek custody of his daughter. Seeing how his ex just ended up in the psych ward with a .43 blood achohol level sad.gif , he now has a good chance of not having to go to court to do it. If he was a Staff Sargent he could easily get a 3 bedroom home, suitable for himself and wife, his step-son, and her. So if the stars align correctly it could all happen quickly. smile.gif
Marine
QUOTE(nates_daisy @ Sep 18 2005, 05:13 PM)
He wants to seek custody of his daughter.  Seeing how his ex just ended up in the psych ward with a .43 blood achohol level sad.gif , he now has a good chance of not having to go to court to do it.  If he was a Staff Sargent he could easily get a 3 bedroom home, suitable for himself and wife, his step-son, and her.  So if the stars align correctly it could all happen quickly.  smile.gif
*

I am pretty sure he already knows about this web site
https://www.manpower.usmc.mil/portal/page?_...&_schema=PORTAL but if he doen't get it to him so he will know exactly what the selection board is looking for. Next, tell him to sit down and have a heart to heart talk with his First Sergeant, contrary to popular belief First Sergeants are human beings. If the First Sergeant has doubts about being a human being tell him to tell the First Sergent a Master Gunnery Sergeant says he is a human being.

Seriously, if your brother is right on the border line and his First Sergeant is made aware of the situation he might be able to add enough push to the procedure to get it done.

Tell him to take as many of these course that he can to.
https://www.marinenet.usmc.mil/portal/
nates_daisy
QUOTE(Marine @ Sep 18 2005, 07:11 PM)
I am pretty sure he already knows about this web site
https://www.manpower.usmc.mil/portal/page?_...&_schema=PORTAL but if he doen't get it to him so he will know exactly what the selection board is looking for.  Next, tell him to sit down and have a heart to heart talk with his First Sergeant, contrary to popular belief First Sergeants are human beings.  If the First Sergeant has doubts about being a human being tell him to tell the First Sergent a Master Gunnery Sergeant says he is a human being. 

Seriously, if your brother is right on the border line and his First Sergeant is made aware of the situation he might be able to add enough push to the procedure to get it done.

Tell him to take as many of these course that he can to.
https://www.marinenet.usmc.mil/portal/
*


Seriously, thanks. While my brother usually knows all the options available, suggestions are always welcome. I forwarded your comments to him. I hope for the sake of my niece that he gains custody. His new wife adores her and the my new nephew is just like a biological brother to her already. When I think of the tears she cried at the ceremony for having "a real mom who loves me now" it just breaks my heart. Maybe you will have given us the answers to our prayers for her future!

love.gif
The_Bammo
Wednesday, October 12, 2005


Commander in chief deploys wrong troops


President Bush's misuse of Guard and Reserve troops will lead to future problems as enlistment declines.




"An Army of one" is becoming much more literal. The Bush administration's rush to war and willingness to deploy regular military and record numbers of National Guard and Reserve troops in combat have tarnished the public perception of military service.

If troop strength, particularly in the Guard and Reserve, slips too far as a result, the United States will lack the human resources to deal with future calamities.

Army enlistment, during the year ending Sept. 30, fell 8 percent short of target, some 6,600 enlistees out of 80,000 sought. Recruitment has been declining for years, getting worse after President Bush took the nation to war in Iraq on false pretenses.

The military has confronted the shortages: by asking Congress to increase the maximum enlistment bonus to $40,000; by lowering academic standards for recruits; by keeping its freely available video game called America's Army up to date with fresh releases. Whether those measures will succeed remains questionable.

Even if they do help, it is far from certain that the Guard and Reserve will benefit. Their roles have changed for the worse as Bush shifts their duties from domestic support to international warrior.

Most people who enlist in the Guard and Reserve figure they will be called upon to help out in an emergency on the home front, to respond to disasters like Hurricane Katrina. Under Bush, they find themselves shipped overseas to fill gaps in the regular Army.

Nearly half the troops in Iraq are Guard and Reserve, a higher proportion than any previous U.S. war. In a country where no location is safe from insurgent attack, those troops increasingly come under fire and represent a growing portion of U.S. casualties.

Just 10 percent of U.S. deaths in Iraq during the initial five-week invasion were Guardsmen and Reservists. More than half were in August and September.

Yet the commander in chief refuses to change course. He intends to deploy U.S. troops inside America's borders during the next natural disaster, leaving the Guard and Reserve on the hook overseas.

Bush has laid the foundation for catastrophe. With fewer people willing to enlist in the Guard, Reserve and regular Army, America will be even less well prepared to respond to the next emergency at home.

Rebuilding their morale will require returning the part-time troops to their domestic responsibilities and the Army to its overseas mission.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/wb/wb/xp-35898


vfguenley
QUOTE(The_Bammo @ Oct 12 2005, 09:33 AM)
  Wednesday, October 12, 2005
Commander in chief deploys wrong troops
President Bush's misuse of Guard and Reserve troops will lead to future problems as enlistment declines.

"An Army of one" is becoming much more literal. The Bush administration's rush to war and willingness to deploy regular military and record numbers of National Guard and Reserve troops in combat have tarnished the public perception of military service.

If troop strength, particularly in the Guard and Reserve, slips too far as a result, the United States will lack the human resources to deal with future calamities.

Army enlistment, during the year ending Sept. 30, fell 8 percent short of target, some 6,600 enlistees out of 80,000 sought. Recruitment has been declining for years, getting worse after President Bush took the nation to war in Iraq on false pretenses.

The military has confronted the shortages: by asking Congress to increase the maximum enlistment bonus to $40,000; by lowering academic standards for recruits; by keeping its freely available video game called America's Army up to date with fresh releases. Whether those measures will succeed remains questionable.

Even if they do help, it is far from certain that the Guard and Reserve will benefit. Their roles have changed for the worse as Bush shifts their duties from domestic support to international warrior.

Most people who enlist in the Guard and Reserve figure they will be called upon to help out in an emergency on the home front, to respond to disasters like Hurricane Katrina. Under Bush, they find themselves shipped overseas to fill gaps in the regular Army.

Nearly half the troops in Iraq are Guard and Reserve, a higher proportion than any previous U.S. war. In a country where no location is safe from insurgent attack, those troops increasingly come under fire and represent a growing portion of U.S. casualties.

Just 10 percent of U.S. deaths in Iraq during the initial five-week invasion were Guardsmen and Reservists. More than half were in August and September.

Yet the commander in chief refuses to change course. He intends to deploy U.S. troops inside America's borders during the next natural disaster, leaving the Guard and Reserve on the hook overseas.

Bush has laid the foundation for catastrophe. With fewer people willing to enlist in the Guard, Reserve and regular Army, America will be even less well prepared to respond to the next emergency at home.

Rebuilding their morale will require returning the part-time troops to their domestic responsibilities and the Army to its overseas mission.

http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/wb/wb/xp-35898

*



You are right on there Mr Airborne Bammo, recruitment is like the presidents polls, so many Americans are tired of having their government lie to them that it’s showing up everywhere, polls, recruitment and donations to the republican party are tell tail signs of things to come. Hopefully we can put an end to all the death and destruction before our governments complete implosion takes place. Cheney’s chief of staff, Rove, Frisk, DeLay and how many more are trying to make a mockery of our beloved nation. Thankfully there will be many like Mr Bammo who will not allow our failure in leadership to become the beginning of the end, we will keep the faith and we will fight for the future of this wonderful nation in spite of the intentional divisions created by the neocon control machine.
Keep America safe, vote, and think progressively while doing it.
Marine
Navy Recruiting Achieves Milestones for FY '05
Story Number: NNS051013-09
Release Date: 10/13/2005 5:40:00 PM



By Journalist 1st Class Sonja Chambers, Navy Recruiting Command Public Affairs

MILLINGTON, Tenn. (NNS) -- Navy Recruiting Command (CNRC) marked its 50th consecutive month and fourth consecutive fiscal year (FY) of meeting active-duty enlisted accession and new contract objectives Sept. 30.

CNRC finished the year accessioning 37,703 active-duty recruits against a target of 37,635.

"We should all be proud of the hard work and dedication to mission our Navy recruiters have shown this year," said Rear Adm. Jeffrey L. Fowler, commander, Navy Recruiting Command. "In a much tougher market, these Sailors know what needs to be done and are getting after it."

CNRC began the year with a larger-than-normal Delayed Entry Program (DEP) at 69 percent as a hedge against a market that was expected to tighten during the Fiscal Year '05 execution year.

This strategy proved correct, as previously programmed recruiter reductions and a stronger-than-expected economy prompted recruiters to tap the DEP more frequently in order to make accession goals. The DEP ended the year at a strong 58 percent.

This hedge also enabled recruiters to continue meeting higher quality standards as the market narrowed.

Recruits with above average test scores improved, with 70.4 percent scoring in the upper test category.

Attainment of diversity was another success in FY '05. The percentage of African-American, Hispanic and Asian/Pacific Islander/Native American recruits who had above average test scores rose this year and diversity in officer accessions increased by seven percent.

An expanding national economy with low unemployment rates led to greater private sector competition for skilled non-veterans considering service in the Navy reserve.

Civilian unemployment rates hovered near historic lows for sectors in high demand by the Navy reserve such as Seabees, hospital corpsmen and masters-at-arms.

Additionally, continued high active-duty retention reduced the pool of experienced veterans available to serve in the reserves.

As a result, in FY '05, Navy recruiters accessioned 9,788 reserve enlisted recruits, which is 85.1 percent of the goal of 11,491.

For more news from around the fleet, visit www.navy.mil.

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=20561
ghostgovt
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003100.php

Is the U.S Military Overstretched?
VoA
Tue, 23 Aug 2005,

WASHINGTON, D.C.: With more than 250,000 American troops deployed in nearly 130 countries, many analysts are questioning whether the United States military is stretched in ways that could undermine its future capabilities should new threats arise.

In his annual report to Congress last May, General Richard Myers, Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, conceded that the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan have strained the military to a point where it runs a higher risk of not being able to quickly and easily defeat potential enemies.

U.S. military casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, and recruitment shortfalls in some branches of the armed forces, such as the Army and National Guard, have alarmed some observers who warn that the military is overburdened and overstretched.

Charles Pena, Director of Defense Policy Studies at the Cato Institute in Washington, says the current system used to repeatedly rotate and redeploy troops serving in Iraq over extended periods of time could negatively impact America’s all-volunteer armed forces. He adds, "This may be the legacy of the Iraq War, that we will have a very different army in particular, than we did before we went to war in Iraq. It’s too early to say exactly what might happen. But certainly there are many troubling and worrisome signs that we may be doing real damage to the United States Army.”

Mr. Pena explains that the current strain may discourage new volunteers from enlisting, thereby weakening the military’s future capabilities. Other analysts say that while the U.S. military is probably using all available manpower, it is not overstretched and continues to have some spare capacity.

Downsized Military Adds to Strain

But policy analyst Jack Spencer of the Washington-based Heritage Foundation reminds foreign policy critics that some stress is to be expected because the United States is on a war footing. He says, "Certainly, the U.S. military is stressed right now. But we’re engaged in the global war on terrorism. And I would suggest that we don’t need a military so large that we’re able to take on such a huge endeavor - - one that is vital to the national interest - - without feeling a little bit of stress.”

Most analysts say the United States’ armed forces are still recovering from the 1990s, when troop levels and budgets were slashed even as they took on peacekeeping missions in countries like Somalia and Bosnia.

Military sociologist David Segal of the University of Maryland says America’s armed forces are being used in ways for which they weren’t originally structured. The result, he says, has caused a disconnect between military force capabilities and national security policy.

"We now have a force structure that is an artifact of decisions that were made during the Cold War to support a national security strategy of deterrence and defense. We downsized from there and moved in the 1990s from deterrence and defense to participation in contingency operations in places like Kosovo, as well as peacekeeping in places like the Sinai. Then we sort of slipped from contingency operations to continuous operations during the period when we were downsizing without considering whether we could actually do that. And I think the answer is that we can’t.”
Marine
Corps offers adventure training as incentive for first-term reenlistments
Submitted by: MCB Camp Butler
Story Identification #: 20001030204018
Story by Gunnery Sgt. Matt Hevezi



CAMP FOSTER, Okinawa, Japan (Oct. 27, 2000) -- First-term Marines who reenlist now may also be able to nab an assignment to one of the Corps' most sought-after training schools. Marines who move slow on this deal need not apply.

"These school seats will go fast, probably in a matter of days," said Master Sgt. Andre Cooper, the senior career planner at III Marine Expeditionary Force.

Up for grabs are quotas to attend the Airborne Course; Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (or SERE) Course; Mountain Survival Course; Winter Mountain Leader Course; Summer Mountain Leader Course; Cold Weather Survival Course; High Risk Personnel Course; and Small Arms Weapons Instructor Course.

The annual offering of school assignments as a reenlistment incentive became available to career planners Corpswide in 1999 to help increase retention.

Having the schools to offer, Cooper said, is just one additional tool available to career planners to help encourage Marines to stay in uniform.

For Marines serving in career fields not offering incentives like reenlistment bonuses or the opportunity to make a lateral move into another career field, Cooper said the school incentive is very appealing to many Marines considering reenlistment.

"We have a lot of Marines who joined the Corps to do this kind of adventurous training," he said. "And most of these kinds of schools are given to the infantry. Career fields like disbursing usually don't offer it. So I think for those Marines it is very attractive."

"They can get a chance to attend a school they wouldn't normally have the opportunity to attend," said Staff Sgt. Robert E. Kelvin, career planner, Headquarters Battalion, 3rd Marine Division.

Kelvin said most Marines he interviews for reenlistment have a positive reaction when he tells them of the opportunity to attend what many consider the Corps' "adventure" schools.

"With or without the school I was going to reenlist," said Sgt. Jayson P. Landin, a classified network administrator with Headquarters Battalion, 3rd Marine Division. "The school is just an added bonus for me."

Landin said attending the Airborne Course will be a welcome change from his daily duties of mostly working indoors with computers.

Cooper said the two most popular incentive schools being offered, the Airborne Course and the SERE Course, are available to reenlisting Marines in limited numbers.

Cooper said career planners are hoping Marine manpower officials will approve several additional first-term reenlistment incentives currently being considered. Cash bonuses of $2,000 for all career fields and additional points for promotion are possibilities for future reenlistment incentives, according to Cooper.

"Awarding promotion points would be a big incentive," Cooper said. "It would put a lot of Marines over the edge for promotion. Right now there are a lot of Military Occupational Specialties's out there with outrageous waits for promotion."

Additional information on the reenlistment school incentive offer is contained in MarAdmin Message 488-00.



http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf...ight=2,manpower
vfguenley
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 14 2005, 07:42 PM)
Corps offers adventure training as incentive for first-term reenlistments
Submitted by: MCB Camp Butler
Story Identification #: 20001030204018
Story by Gunnery Sgt. Matt Hevezi
CAMP FOSTER, Okinawa, Japan (Oct. 27, 2000) -- First-term Marines who reenlist now may also be able to nab an assignment to one of the Corps' most sought-after training schools. Marines who move slow on this deal need not apply.

"These school seats will go fast, probably in a matter of days," said Master Sgt. Andre Cooper, the senior career planner at III Marine Expeditionary Force.

Up for grabs are quotas to attend the Airborne Course; Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape (or SERE) Course; Mountain Survival Course; Winter Mountain Leader Course; Summer Mountain Leader Course; Cold Weather Survival Course; High Risk Personnel Course; and Small Arms Weapons Instructor Course.

The annual offering of school assignments as a reenlistment incentive became available to career planners Corpswide in 1999 to help increase retention.

Having the schools to offer, Cooper said, is just one additional tool available to career planners to help encourage Marines to stay in uniform.

For Marines serving in career fields not offering incentives like reenlistment bonuses or the opportunity to make a lateral move into another career field, Cooper said the school incentive is very appealing to many Marines considering reenlistment.

"We have a lot of Marines who joined the Corps to do this kind of adventurous training," he said. "And most of these kinds of schools are given to the infantry. Career fields like disbursing usually don't offer it. So I think for those Marines it is very attractive."

"They can get a chance to attend a school they wouldn't normally have the opportunity to attend," said Staff Sgt. Robert E. Kelvin, career planner, Headquarters Battalion, 3rd Marine Division.

Kelvin said most Marines he interviews for reenlistment have a positive reaction when he tells them of the opportunity to attend what many consider the Corps' "adventure" schools.

"With or without the school I was going to reenlist," said Sgt. Jayson P. Landin, a classified network administrator with Headquarters Battalion, 3rd Marine Division. "The school is just an added bonus for me."

Landin said attending the Airborne Course will be a welcome change from his daily duties of mostly working indoors with computers.

Cooper said the two most popular incentive schools being offered, the Airborne Course and the SERE Course, are available to reenlisting Marines in limited numbers.

Cooper said career planners are hoping Marine manpower officials will approve several additional first-term reenlistment incentives currently being considered. Cash bonuses of $2,000 for all career fields and additional points for promotion are possibilities for future reenlistment incentives, according to Cooper.

"Awarding promotion points would be a big incentive," Cooper said. "It would put a lot of Marines over the edge for promotion. Right now there are a lot of Military Occupational Specialties's out there with outrageous waits for promotion."

Additional information on the reenlistment school incentive offer is contained in MarAdmin Message 488-00.
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf...ight=2,manpower
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When this war was being contemplated anyone with half a wit and a television knew the bush crew had it wrong, the world knew they had it wrong, my kids knew they were way off base. Is it your intention to follow orders without understanding the mission, then why not question the orders, especially knowing as the pentagon did that it was a political hack chicken hawk in charge, ( the pentagon is being run by a bunch of incompetent’s as well, they have no memories of previous battles won ). So you play to win, how is that going to happen now, you’ve lost the support of the American people and your war is going very poorly. Your leader was a washout from the national guard, a draft dodging coward who ran away from the war I was fighting, what makes you think he will have a burst of intelligence and courage now? Is it your intention to continue sending young Americans to their death until we’ve brought peace to the entire middle east, in what 30 or 50 years. Can you somehow envision a scenario with bush in charge that allows for peace to break out and overcome 1500 years of regional history, all at the end of an American gun
Marine
QUOTE(vfguenley @ Oct 15 2005, 10:59 AM)
When this war was being contemplated anyone with half a wit and a television knew the bush crew had it wrong, the world knew they had it wrong, my kids knew they were way off base. Is it your intention to follow orders without understanding the mission, then why not question the orders, especially knowing as the pentagon did that it was a political hack chicken hawk in charge, ( the pentagon is being run by a bunch of incompetent’s as well, they have no memories of previous battles won ). So you play to win, how is that going to happen now, you’ve lost the support of the American people and your war is going very poorly. Your leader was a washout from the national guard, a draft dodging coward who ran away from the war I was fighting, what makes you think he will have a burst of intelligence and courage now? Is it your intention to continue sending young Americans to their death until we’ve brought peace to the entire middle east, in what 30 or 50 years. Can you somehow envision a scenario with bush in charge that allows for peace to break out and overcome 1500 years of regional history, all at the end of an American gun
*

Are you talking about Bill Clinton? He's the only president I've served under who avoided military service which I am aware of. And I never held that against Bill Clinton, personally I never wanted anyone watching my backside who didn't want to be there.

I don't know where you get the idea what the USA is doing in the Middle East is going poorly. Here's the headline NPR is running: "Polls close in Iraq after millions of people cast their ballots in a vote on whether to approve their new constitution. For the most part, the day was quiet, with only scattered reports of minor attacks." That sure as hell doesn't sound like what America is doing is failing, now does it?

Vaughn, it's you who does not understand the mission here. The mission is being accomplished no matter how bad you dislike it.
ghostgovt
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 15 2005, 03:53 PM)
Are you talking about Bill Clinton?  He's the only president I've served under who avoided military service which I am aware of.  And I never held that against Bill Clinton, personally I never wanted anyone watching my backside who didn't want to be there.

I don't know where you get the idea what the USA is doing in the Middle East is going poorly.  Here's the headline NPR is running: "Polls close in Iraq after millions of people cast their ballots in a vote on whether to approve their new constitution. For the most part, the day was quiet, with only scattered reports of minor attacks."  That sure as hell doesn't sound like what America is doing is failing, now does it?

Vaughn, it's you who does not understand the mission here.  The mission is being accomplished no matter how bad you dislike it.
*

roflmbo.gif roflmbo.gif
flydangler
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 15 2005, 05:53 PM)
I don't know where you get the idea what the USA is doing in the Middle East is going poorly
Methinks it might be based on the lack of stoners we got servin' today, eh?
david sobien
That constitution is not worth the paper it is written on. It will be forgotten as soon as the next bomb goes off.
Marine
QUOTE(david sobien @ Oct 15 2005, 09:52 PM)
That constitution is not worth the paper it is written on. It will be forgotten as soon as the next bomb goes off.
*

I bet there were plenty of nay sayers about 215 years ago saying the same thing about another constitution David.
EvelyninTexas
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 16 2005, 06:28 AM)
I bet there were plenty of nay sayers about 215 years ago saying the same thing about another constitution David.
*


I hope you are right, Marine. But that will only happen if, like in our own country, the rest of the world lets Iraq resolve their own problems. Remember, it took a lot of conflict, including a Civil War, for us to get it right, And we are still in the process of interpreting our own Constitution. That's why dubya's Supreme Court appointments are so critical.

If the Iraqi constitution is indeed ratified, now we need to let them get to the real work of building some kind of democracy.
flydangler
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 16 2005, 07:28 AM)
I bet there were plenty of nay sayers about 215 years ago saying the same thing about another constitution David
Might be he thinks like this, eh?


Marine
QUOTE(EvelyninTexas @ Oct 16 2005, 05:43 AM)
I hope you are right, Marine.  But that will only happen if, like in our own country, the rest of the world lets Iraq resolve their own problems.  Remember, it took a lot of conflict, including a Civil War, for us to get it right,  And we are still in the process of interpreting our own Constitution.  That's why dubya's Supreme Court appointments are so critical. 

If the Iraqi constitution is indeed ratified, now we need to let them get to the real work of building some kind of democracy.
*

The Iraqis don't want a civil war or the insurgency to continue. The Iraqis want their country back, even the Sunni realized when they boycotted the Parliamentary elections it did not benefit them.

The future of Iraq is in the political process now, thinking Iraqis know the future of Iraq is not in the barrel of a gun.

I've said it a number of times a guerrilla insurgency has to have popular support in order to succeed. The insurgency is dispised by almost all Iraqis, it shall fail.

I anticipate the jihadist insurgency will end in a whimper sooner than most people think. The Iraqis are ready to go back to living a normal life.
vfguenley
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 15 2005, 03:53 PM)
Are you talking about Bill Clinton?  He's the only president I've served under who avoided military service which I am aware of.  And I never held that against Bill Clinton, personally I never wanted anyone watching my backside who didn't want to be there.

I don't know where you get the idea what the USA is doing in the Middle East is going poorly.  Here's the headline NPR is running: "Polls close in Iraq after millions of people cast their ballots in a vote on whether to approve their new constitution. For the most part, the day was quiet, with only scattered reports of minor attacks."  That sure as hell doesn't sound like what America is doing is failing, now does it?

Vaughn, it's you who does not understand the mission here.  The mission is being accomplished no matter how bad you dislike it.
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Lets see here, Bubba Clinton was gone by 9/11, according to bush we are in Iraq in retaliation to being attacked in New York and Washington, what connection did Clinton have with the terrorists who flew into the WTC and the Pentagon? Seems to me that Clinton and his crew tried very hard to inform bush about the number one threat to America, the middle eastern radicals. Seems bush didn’t care at the time.
You talk about having someone watch your back. Would a “coked up” national guard pilot have made a better person for watching your back? It’s no secret why so many people joined the guard during the Nam war, we all knew it was to avoid having to confront combat.
It wasn’t a flash of exceptionally intelligent thinking that brought me to the conclusion that the Iraqi war is going poorly, it’s been the constant berrage of bad news from most of the news agencies along with what I hear from my friends and relatives who are serving in Iraq. Anyone who now thinks this war is going well is simply not in touch with reality. We’ll see if peace breaks out after this election, it would be better if you were right and we could begin bringing our soldiers home. Your reminding me of the vice presidents comments when the war first started, something about how the Iraqi’s would be throwing flowers at our soldiers when they first arrived in Iraq, are you saying the flowers are going to show up sometime soon.
The mission has been to fatten the coffers of bush’s pals, which has been successful, and to mislead the American people into thinking that being Imperialistic is good for America. Do you really think that bush & co really cares about you average Iraqi, they are having trouble liking each other much less any third world people. If the mission is to get a couple of thousand Americas killed in an effort to further conservative causes, then your right, mission successful.
You say the Iraqi’s don’t want a civil war, then who is doing the bombings, is it our troops who are setting off the IED’s, ( nothing new here, a command detonated bomb back in our day ).
Marine
QUOTE(vfguenley @ Oct 16 2005, 09:50 AM)
Lets see here, Bubba Clinton was gone by 9/11, according to bush we are in Iraq in retaliation to being attacked in New York and Washington, what connection did Clinton have with the terrorists who flew into the WTC and the Pentagon? Seems to me that Clinton and his crew tried very hard to inform bush about the number one threat to America, the middle eastern radicals. Seems bush didn’t care at the time.
You talk about having someone watch your back. Would a “coked up” national guard pilot have made a better person for watching your back? It’s no secret why so many people joined the guard during the Nam war, we all knew it was to avoid having to confront combat.
It wasn’t a flash of exceptionally intelligent thinking that brought me to the conclusion that the Iraqi war is going poorly, it’s been the constant berrage of bad news from most of the news agencies along with what I hear from my friends and relatives who are serving in Iraq. Anyone who now thinks this war is going well is simply not in touch with reality. We’ll see if peace breaks out after this election, it would be better if you were right and we could begin bringing our soldiers home. Your reminding me of the vice presidents comments when the war first started, something about how the Iraqi’s would be throwing flowers at our soldiers when they first arrived in Iraq, are you saying the flowers are going to show up sometime soon.
The mission has been to fatten the coffers of bush’s pals, which has been successful, and to mislead the American people into thinking that being Imperialistic is good for America. Do you really think that bush & co really cares about you average Iraqi, they are having trouble liking each other much less any third world people. If the mission is to get a couple of thousand Americas killed in an effort to further conservative causes, then your right, mission successful.
You say the Iraqi’s don’t want a civil war, then who is doing the bombings, is it our troops who are setting off the IED’s, ( nothing new here, a command detonated bomb back in our day ).
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Vaughn, if you would stop making stuff up it would be easier to respond to your post.

You know, when you make stuff up first we have to sort out what's real and what's not. Right there in your first sentence you make the statement we invaded Iraq in retaliation for al Qaeda's attack on New York and Washington. Would you care to provide us with a link where anyone except the antiwar movement has said that?

Then you make some kind of rambling statement about a draft dodging president; to my knowledge to be a draft dodger means not having military service. The only president I ever served under who lacked any form of military service was Bill Clinton. I asked you if Bill Clinton is who you are talking about when you start flinging the statement "draft dodger". Instead of responding to that which was asked, you try to change the subject.

My cousin joined the Texas Air National Guard about the same time Bush did. I don't slight anyone's military service performed, not even my lazy cousin. In fact when I hear ANYONE denigrating ANYONE'S military service my opinion of them is the same as YOUR opinion of the Swift Boat Vets.

Now let's look at the news out of Iraq today, again it seems another day of nothing but good news. Damn, even Kofi Annan thinks what's happening in Iraq is wonderful and is showing progress.

I swear, until you develop better debating skills it is really tough to respond to you.
david sobien
Sure Marine Bush had a fine time during his National Guard days while others did the dieing for him. So did VP Chaney and the rest of the cowards in this administration. Well Marine I am denigrating Bush's military service and I could care less what you think. Bush hid out in the Guard by using his daddy's influence. That does not cause me to respect him. I was just a Navy engine room guy and my service was like a Medal of Honor winner compared to what Bush did. At least I collected 18 months of combat pay in Vietnam. I completed my service and did what my country asked of me. Bush hid out and did not even bother to complete his service. Hale to the chief! I can not see how you can defend him.
Marine
QUOTE(david sobien @ Oct 16 2005, 10:00 PM)
Sure Marine Bush had a fine time during his National Guard days while others did the dieing for him. So did VP Chaney and the rest of the cowards in this administration. Well Marine I am denigrating Bush's military service and I could care less what you think. Bush hid out in the Guard by using his daddy's influence. That does not cause me to respect him. I was just a Navy engine room guy and my service was like a Medal of Honor winner compared to what Bush did. At least I collected 18 months of combat pay in Vietnam. I completed my service and did what my country asked of me. Bush hid out and did not even bother to complete his service. Hale to the chief! I can not see how you can defend him.
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Well David, I feel about you the same way you feel about the swift boat vets. No difference in my opinion between what you just said and what they said.
david sobien
There is a big difference in that the swift boat people were liers. Am I lieing about Bush's military record?
flydangler
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 17 2005, 09:03 AM)
Well David, I feel about you the same way you feel about the swift boat vets.  No difference in my opinion between what you just said and what they said.
Methinks the comparison might be lost to them blinded by ideology. Seems them marchin' six paces behind the dung cart never quite catch up to it and yet still get much of the benefit, eh?
amy
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 17 2005, 09:03 AM)
Well David, I feel about you the same way you feel about the swift boat vets.  No difference in my opinion between what you just said and what they said.
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I'm wondering Marine, were the accusations against Kerry, by the swiftboaters, true?
Marine
QUOTE(amy @ Oct 17 2005, 10:33 AM)
I'm wondering Marine, were the accusations against Kerry, by the swiftboaters, true?
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My personal belief is the allegations are a load of horse pookey and have absolutely no place in politics.

I know some of the folks who post here will disagree but someone does not get a Bronze Star and a Silver Star for being a coward.

I think they were cheap shots at John Kerry's integrity and I think the same about the AWOL charges leveled at Bush. I take them as cheap and taudy political mudslinging and I have no respect for any person who elects to participate in it.
Marine
QUOTE(david sobien @ Oct 17 2005, 09:24 AM)
There is a big difference in that the swift boat people were liers. Am I lieing about Bush's military record?
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amy
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 17 2005, 02:36 PM)
My personal belief is the allegations are a load of horse pookey and have absolutely no place in politics. 

I know some of the folks who post here will disagree but someone does not get a Bronze Star and a Silver Star for being a coward.

I think they were cheap shots at John Kerry's integrity and I think the same about the AWOL charges leveled at Bush.  I take them as cheap and taudy political mudslinging and I have no respect for any person who elects to participate in it.
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I agree that Kerry is a man of integrity. I also agree that the mudslinging has no place in politics, and the interesting thing is, it usually backfires producing the opposite of its intent.
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