It seems very much like the JR High mentality that we have to put someone down to make ourselves feel better but as adults we shouldn't have to do that. I know groups of people hate others, whites, blacks, jews, etc,... But I can't fathom why people have this hate for gays. What are they doing to you? I know the people here don't but I can't get it. How does someone being gay affect you? Muchless someone marrying another gay? This country is very messed up when our "leadership" is so blatantly homophobic.

It's the 'ick' factor. Personal distaste disguised as morality. Just like bigotry is about nothing more than personal distaste.

It's a Bible thing.

I guess I understand what you are getting at, but why don't these same people feel the "ick" factor about killing thousand of innocent Iraqis?

The Bible, like religion is used as a tool to foster whatever those who have/want power use (or more accurately, misuse) to get/retain control.

Most people are uncomfortable with what is unfamiliar/unknown. It's easier to believe bad things about those you don't know, especially when someone is vilifying them and using something you're familiar with against THEM.

It's also the ick factor.

I think most people are ok with homosexuality as long as it isn't crammed down their throats. When the same-sex marriages started, the news was blanketed with clips of gays on courthouse steps, kissing, etc. .. that was too much for many people.

Florida, where I live is very much "gay" friendly.....we have many couples in our neighbourough and nobody bother them. In fact, most have excellent taste and their houses are always very nice redone, which is always good

People hate out of fear. If I were gay I wouldn't give a damn what small minded people thought of me. People really need to mind their own business and live and let live.

People do not naturally hate one another, it's a social beahvior that is taught.

The GOP used to be the party of the eastern elete (Rockefellar, Lodge, Romney, etc.). After the Goldwater defeat, when the GOP was out in the wilderness, it searched for target groups it could manipulate. Enter the neocons. Into its fold they welcomed religious fundamentalists, racial bigots, Nascar dads, soccer moms, NRA members, white supremisists, and assorted other nutcases.

It's easy to manipulate those of low intelligence and the misinformed with the politics of fear.

Read
http://indyweek.com/durham/2002-10-30/ae.html
http://www.tms.tribune.com/htmlmail/commen...3huffington.htm
http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/nov2004/countdown.php

For those who need more, read Dr. Daniel Siegel's "Mindsight".

I don't hate gay individuals. My brother is gay and has even borrowed my heels and asked for makeup tips. If the Creator created my brother to be gay, who am I to tell the Creator that he/she is wrong? (not that I find anything wrong with it personally) These *holier than thou* people in this world should stop and think about what they are preaching. If only the closed minded would open their minds to let some light in, they would see that we each are unique expressions of the very being who created us.

in your face stuff always puts people over the edge. this being said, I'm sick of Britney Spears' antics being shoved down my throat and you don't see me protesting to stop her from get married twice in less than a year

Why do people name topics like this. Sheesh

A combination of homophobia, insecurity of ones own sexuality, and religious conviction.

Hi,

I am straight, but your question seemed so sincere that I thought I would try to address it.

I can't really say for sure other than Bible teachings etc. However, if you read the Bible, Jesus didn't allow others to throw stones. Since they believe gays are sinners, they also forget or ignore that Jesus protected sinners from the "morally righteous". He said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Since we are ALL sinners, nobody could cast one. Jesus did not allow it. He protected sinners and kept them safe. He didn't chase sinners away, He took them unto him. He also doesn't say it is ok to hate sinners or your enemies. I can't understand how they can ignore Jesus's words, actions, and behavior.

As I thought about your question, I am thinking that those gays who flash around in dress-up, talking in "fake" voices trying to sound female etc., don't help their cause at all. It is like watching "overkill and overacting" and the impression they give to others isn't necessarily a positive one. It makes the "ick" factor more extreme and harder to accept.

There is one more thing I have noticed. Many males claim to "hate gays" and call them names, however in the same breath they like watching two gay females together. If that isn't hypocritical, I don't know what is. Many males like gays if they are female, hate and ostracize them if they are male. So the truth is, those men don't hate gays, only male ones.

THROUGHOUT HISTORY PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS HATED OTHER PEOPLE FOR SOME PERCIEVED DIFFERENCE. THE HUMAN RACE HASN'T CHANGED, ONLY OUR TECHNOLOGY HAS. WHETHER YOUR BLACK, HISPANIC, JEWISH, ASIAN, CHRISTIAN, MOSLEM, BUDDHIST, OR GAY HUMAN BEINGS JUDGE, AND WILL CONTINUE TO JUDGE OTHERS BASED ON SUPERFICIAL DIFFERENCES. NOW THAT WE HAVE MAPPED THE HUMAN GENOME ITS POSSIBLE (FROM A DNA PERSPECTIVE) TO TRACE ANY TWO PEOPLE FROM TOTALLY DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHIC AND RACIAL BACKGROUNDS AND FIND A SHARED ANCESTOR. BECAUSE THERE IS ALMOST NO VARIATION IN THESE GENE CODES IT IS THOUGHT THE HUMAN RACE AT ON ONE POINT WAS ON THE VERGE OF EXTINCTION NUMBERING MABEY ONLY TWO THOUSAND. WERE ALL THE SAME. I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS IS EVEN AN ISSUE????

It doesn't support their purposes




the truth is, those men don't want to join in with the gay men. .. they do want to join in with the women and enjoy the fanstasy they could. If they were smart, they'd be happy to have more gay men so they had less competition for the women they want.

Hmmm... I enjoyed reading your observations. Good points!

I do not understand the "crammed down their throats" mentality.

How are two people who love each other, kissing in public, cramming their sexuality down my throat? They're not trying to kiss me.

LOL! ITA!

Why do people hate gays? Well, one thing is that gay hatred is nothing new; check out any history of torture book to see woodcuts of gays being burned at the stake, sawed in half, etc.

So why? Here are some uneducated guesses:

1) evolution: if everyone were gay, the species wouldn't propagate. (???)

2) see "The Myth of Male Power" by Farrell for a conjecture. Roughly it is this:

homosexuality is a better deal that heterosexuality. Why? Two gays have sex. Result: sexual pleasure. A straight couple has sex. Possible result: "commitment", possibly a kid to support for 18 years (or more), loss of freedom, etc.

3) Fear? Fear of what I don't know. Here is what I do know: back in college (US Naval Academy), I was watching TV with a bunch of guys. There was a jeans commercial that had a "butt-shot" up close (really tight jeans). Many of the guys whooped it up. They panned away....turns out it was a guy. :o

You should have seen it; I've never seen those guys get so quiet so quickly! :D

But I really don't know; I'd love to hear from an evolutionary psychologist.

ollie

Like a previous post said, it's the 'ick' factor. Men don't like to see men kissing, women don't like to see women kissing. For many, the natural reaction is 'ewww'. Most feel what people do in private is their own business .. but, when it's on national news every hour of every day for weeks .. it forces people to see what many would rather not. That's how Bush won .. they used the same-sex marriage controversy to get the ban initiative on ballots across the country, then rode the turnout into the White House. Bush, in essense, was re-elected because of intolerance. The opposite of what Jesus taught.

I also think why do we "straight" people consider ourselves "straight." I'm not saying us but why are we considered, labeled "straight." Who is to say what is "straight?" The normal way may be gay or there may be no normal way. It's so sad the way it is.
I'm a Roman Catholic who completely disagrees with the church on this issue and many others.

omigosh, I think you've got it!

The trouble with these general explanations is that they don't fit with societies where same sex relationships were not regarded with hatred but rather the reverse, as for example ancient Greece. It's interesting that the story you recount took place in the military. In America today the military often seems an intensely homophobic setting. In ancient Greece, however, homosexual relationships were thought to be conducive to military prowess and bravery in battle. In Sparta homosexual relationships were practically a structural feature of training and life in the military, and the Sacred Band of Thebes, legendary for their bravery, was entirely composed of 150 pairs of male lovers. The "Band of Lovers" who had never before been defeated, died to a man fighting against Phillip of Macedon and Alexander the Great. Plutarch describes the reason for their phenomenal bravery in this way: "For men of the same tribe or family little value one another when dangers press; but a band cemented by friendship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another." Thus love produces courageous action out of a desire to be seen as honorable by the lover. Now it's remarkable that even commanders in the contemporary American military will say that when it comes to the fighting itself, the motivation for troops in the field is the love they have for one another. But under the constraints of socialization in a homophobic culture homosexual love can be seen as dishonorable and impermissible. Given these conflicting elements, it is perhaps not surprising that in experiencing the love they feel for each other which is to motivate them in battle, soldiers feel they must actively resist its becoming or being seen as homosexual love. This may be part of the explanation for the intensity of homophobia in the military in societies where homophobia is part of early and continuing cultural indoctrination.

joeby;

I think youv'e hit the nail on the head!

I don't think there is any one, single reason - I think you've been given an excellent overview of some of the multiple reasons which contribute to a societal "norm" in attitudes.

One theme which I do believe pervades all of these reasons is fear.

We are taught from a very early age that expressing our sexuality - regardless of sexual orientation - is "bad" or "wrong." Sexual freedom, whether you are male or female, is discouraged. Don't masturbate, your palms will get hairy, you'll go blind, etc. Don't lust after someone, you'll go to hell. Denial is good, giving in to our passions is bad. Sex is for procreation - period. These messages are very insidious, and very pervasive.

Homosexuals aren't procreating - sex is for pleasure, it is for expressing Love, it is for sharing intimacy. I think there is a degree of jealousy among hets - why is it ok for the homosexuals to have sex just for the sake of having sex? Our religious leaders only reinforce these ideas - and then take it one step further by condemning what homosexuals are doing, because sexual freedom is "bad." And we wouldn't want the het parishinors to get the wrong idea.

Now this is pure conjecture, and I absolutely cannot back this up with any facts or figures - but from what I have observed -

Het couples who enjoy sex with their partner, purely for the joy sex brings, tend to be very accepting of homosexuals. And the people I know who think homosexuality is evil, or wrong, or sinful, or disgusting - tend to be pretty prudish in their own sex lives as well. Sex is "functionary," or selfish, or wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am. There is very little "spice" - though they usually won't admit it. If you ask them, they'll deny it - but if you pay attention to the comments they make in general conversation about their sexual relationships - it becomes pretty evident.

But again - I am not trying to state that this is factual or even "the norm." Just a trend I've noticed - possibly because of the type of people I'm exposed to. But I'd be interested in hearing others observations about this.

I am probably the most conservative person roaming these forums. I do so because I like to be educated on others views, and share my views.

I do not hate gays. I do not care if people have gay sex. I just don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to see it or even know it is going on. I have a gay cousin and a gay brother in-law that I get along with just fine. I respect them as human beings, and their freedom of choice as long as they respect me enough to not put me around what they do in their private life. I see homosexuality as a sin. I don't see it as any worse or better then being a liar, being an alcholic, etc. They are all sins and no one is perfect in view. I hope that isn't too offensive to anyone, but it is how I feel. I think many heterosexuals agree with my view.



I think what the real problem here is that everyone is just a little gay. I have talked about this with some people who agree. Everyone has some gay thoughts every now or then that they force themselves to not think about. When they see gay people being intimate they go "ewww" because it is forcing them to think about it. I could be wrong but this is what I have observed.

Also, someone was asking how gay people hurt heterosexuals. Let me tell you a short story. My freshmen year in college I had a roomate from a big city. We were going to school on the west coast. He was in love with his high school sweet heart who was in this all girls school in new york. It was actual more like a country club then a school, but I guess that is irrelevant. My roommate stayed up late into the night every night talking with this girl. He was planning a trip to fly over to New York and see her over thanksgiving break as a suprise. This is a little expensive and shows how committed this guy was to her. In the mean time ,at this school that his girl friend was going to, they are very progressive. Lesbianism is very excepted at this all girls school. For example, my roommate and I would innocently joke around about lesbians at the school, and one day we were jokeing around when he was talking to his girl friend on the phone to his girl friend, and he got in trouble for it. The reason being is a lot of what we were saying was actually had a lot of truth to it, and we didn't realize it. I week before he was planning to go to on this trip to see her; she calls him up and says she has kissed her roommate, and wants to explore this new relationship. This girl was not gay, she did like men, and even wanted to keep her relationship with my roommate; however, she was cheating on him, he could not trust her anymore, and their relationship was over.

If this school was not so accepting of lesbians then this girl would never have tried to experiement, there would be a lot less pain in both of their lives, and who knows, they may have even married and had kids. Those two did have a lot of potential from my view even though it was a long distance relationship.

Basically, what I am trying to tell you with this story is that an exceptance of homosexuality tends to create more homosexuals, and hurts heterosexual potential. I think it goes back to what I was talking about where everyone is a little gay, and just doesn't want to think about it. When homosexuality is accepted people will think be more willing to think about it, and many people who would have been just fine as heteros may becstart same sex relationships. I think a lot of people realize this and do not see it as a good thing.

This is just my thoughts. I could be wrong. I realize this is a delicate issue and hope I did not offend anyone. I was just trying to give an honest prospective on this so you people can see the issue from another view.

I think when it comes to the whole gay issue, there are so many things we cannot say and probably many things we cannot even think. Sometimes I think gay people are a little too focused on their sexuality. That might be what upsets people. It's always slightly unsettling to be forced to acknowledge somebody else's sexuality. Even heterosexual couples are hard to take if they are constantly hanging all over each other publicly. But do you ever hear anybody say they hate gays? This is sort of an interesting point, actually. The interesting part is that the problem is not with all of any one group of people. I sometimes wonder how far back in history this terrorism that we are combatting in this particular era goes. And this thought occurred to me in reading Joeby's post, too. I think sometimes we tend to think that just because something occurred in history, it has some bearing on what is in fact truth. I feel like I need to mention that I picked up a PLUG popup box at exactly the same time I received my registration email; and truly, as I write, I feel like the breath is being sucked right out of me. It did say I was vulnerable to internet attacks. So what's new? It also said my computer was open to hackers and the scum of the internet. That just makes me laugh.

Desert Flower

I'm not sure it's gay people so focused on their sexuality. The big anti-gay diatribes from the late 70's - early 80's were about how they (gay people) are all promiscuous (which we all know is only immoral when practiced by homosexuals; it's perfectly legit for heterosexuals - or at least straight men, since they can't get pregnant). The more recent rise in anti-gay activity has been because those of us who grew up in the 70's & 80's (and those after us) began to see that gay people are very much like straight people, and that makes them more *gasp* human - just like us and less the pariah of society the neocons want them to be. The fact that your average mainstream person doesn't react to homosexuality the same way a klansman in the 50's reacted to a black man is what upsets those who haven't fully evolved emotionally.

sorry to be able to answer yes to that

How typical of heterosexuals imagining gays and lesbians don't have the ewwww! and ick factor seeing you flaunt your sexual proclivities.Unfortunately for gays your corporations use your sexual desires to sell everything from cars to colognes.

"heterosexuality isn't normal.........it's just COMMON!"

Exactly, people aren't offended if to heteros walk down the street holding hands and steal a kiss now and then, so why should it matter it it is two women or two men?


How do two people who love each other and want to enter into marriage effect my marriage? It doesn't! I think gays should have the same rights that the rest of us have.

I live in a state that just voted for Kerry but also voted for an amendment to our state constitution banning gay marriage. So even some usually clear thinking Dems also have a problem with this issue.

It really makes no sense to me.

If it makes you feel any better, I have the total ick factor when anyone pulls the going off to war routine that was common in the hallway at school. I don't imagine that gay people don't have the ewwwwww yuck reaction at all, I'm too amazed that more straight folks don't get a bit grossed out by it to be honest.

See the postings in the religion category - "Republican groups and agendas"

I grew up with a father who was extremely racist. I came to understand that his racism stemmed from fear, and his fear stemmed from ignornance. Basically, you hate what you don't understand.

In the case of gay people, there can be a lot of different reasons why they are picked out as targets for hatred. Someone mentioned it being taught, that is a very good point and very pertinant.

Some people are threatened, maybe a fear that they too might have homosexual feelings and are not able to face them.

Some people feel the gay lifestyle is a choice and because it is a choice and because the bible speaks out against "man laying with another man" they are violating God's will. (they conveniently forget the "judge not lest ye be judged" thing)

The truth is, we don't understand it and because it is not well understood, people fear it. Because they fear it, they hate it. Yes, it is very juvenile and yes they are wrong to use God as a reason to deny someone the right to get married and live as miserably as heterosexuals do.

As for choice, we now suspect it isn't a choice of lifestyle, that one's sexual persuation isn't a choice but something you are born with. Which would explain why pedophilia is so hard to "treat."

I lived with a gay couple for over a year, back in the early 90s. I remember one of them telling me that he knew when he was 5 years old that there was something about him that made him different from the other boys. Of course at 5, one hardly understands sexual orientation, but certainly it isn't too young to realize that in some manner, you are different from your peers. After all, I know many 5 year olds who get crushes on members of the opposite sex all the time.

I think another good question might be, how can we educate people to get them to understand that this is not something to be feared and that by denying one group the right to basic freedoms and privilages, we open ourselves up to the same denial?

I'm not quite sure what you count as being "too focused on their sexuality." Let me ask you this question. When heterosexual couples, married or not, refer frequently in their conversations to their husband or wife or their boyfriend or girlfriend, do you think that is being "too focused on their sexuality"? Or does it qualify when they give each other a kiss goodbye in public when parting? It's amazing how many heterosexual people would say no about that but yes if the same thing were done by a gay couple. The charge of being "too focused on their sexuality" or the more common "flaunting their sexuality" is applied according to a double standard. (In fact, in most places in the US, a gay couple would risk physical assault if they gave each other a kiss goodbye or held hands.) A similar sort of thing also happens, though less so, in the case of interracial (especially black/white) heterosexual couples.




Unfortunately, yes. In fact, there's a famous demon named Fred Phelps who calls himself a Christian minister and proclaims that "God Hates Fags" and even has a website of the same name (godhatesfags.com). He turns up at gay functions and even, incredibly, at the funerals of gay people with his associates who hold signs emblazoned with this travesty so that the bereaved have to witness their appalling hatred. Although he is an extreme case, there are others who share similar feelings even if they are ashamed to trot them out so publicly.




I'm not quite sure what you have in mind in that last sentence. Could you elaborate?

Because we are THE most artistically gifted and creative group EVER to have existed within the species. Think about it ! Spells jealousy.

Because people freak out at their own subconcious thoughts and feelings and "project" them onto others to defend their own fragile egos. Look up projection in any psych 101 book if you don't understand it.

Homophobes are pathetically transparent, aren't they?

They hate us because we have so much that they want. They're too screwed up to figure out how to create better lives.

We are a gifted minority, much as African Americans are a gifted minority.

They don't understand. They are taught what is socialy exceptable any deviation is abnormal. They have to chastize people to feel normal or some people do.

Like many labels, it's a retro hate remark. "Bent" is a old fashioned term for being gay, which led to a necessary opposite = "Straight".

I have to resoundingly concur with Underbear on the "ick" factor going many different directions. Personally, the image of het sex is very unappealing to me, and can actually make me wince and turn away - sound familar? So I understand the urge...

HOWEVER - because I live in a world of wide diversity I try to find the beauty in the moment, urging myself to find it within myself to enjoy another couple's joy. And in that way I swallow the ick and emerge the better for the experience. Sometimes it's not your first impressions that matter - rather it's the considered opinions that we should embrace.

If I am not particularly disgusted by either form of sexual relations, is it possible that I am bisexual?

I honestly don't know one way or another...I have never had any sort of sex life.

No one can answer this question but yourself. Give yourself plenty of time, and listen to your own physical and emotional reactions to things. Think about them, and you'll begin to know yourself.

Each of us grows up dealing with the people around us, and sooner or later we discover what appeals to us sexually. How you react to that information will either make you comfortable with your sexuality, or uncomfortable. If you find yourself uncomfortable, I highly suggest the use of therapy - a wonderful opportunity for self examination when done with a respectful professional.

I'd like to point out that my personal ick factor is based on many different experiences over my long lifetime, and are not solely based upon my lesbianism. Disgust for a particular form of human sexuality is one's perogative, but it does not negate or undermine the power of that same expression when practiced by a loving couple. My point was that if you look closely enough, you can find the beauty in any adult, consensual couple's love - as long as you look with respect, a desire to understand, and compassion. That's what I try to do when I see a straight couple kissing in public, rather than my irrational knee jerk reaction in feeling disgust at heterosexual public displays of affection.

Hello OneinTen...it is nice to meet you.

I also feel embarrassed whenever I see anyone behaving passionately in public. That includes screaming, crying, or fornicating.

I suppose that I should experiment to discover the definition of my sexuality...but I founder in most intimate interactions.

WTF does that mean? So maybe schools shouldn't let gays/lesbians attend? SHE and only SHE made that choice. People have free will and don't enjoy or want to do things they DON'T want to.

So, blame it all on Lesbians? What a crock of sh*t.

No I'm not straight and I'm damn well proud of it.

This is the real way this story would have unfolded:

The girl would have experimented sooner or later, because she had questions concerning her own sexuality. She would never have brought it up to your friend, her boyfriend, however, instead keeping it a deep dark secret.

She would have married your friend, more or less to make sure the secret got kept, and to reassure herself that she "really was straight". She would have convinced herself that she loved your friend, confused by her own feelings into relief at being desired by a man as proof that she's straight.

They would have lived together for some time, and the differences between them would have become bigger and greater with passing time. He would have recognized that she wasn't happy with him, and she would have recognized that he wasn't happy with her.

Eventually she would have left him, determined to find someone who could love her for herself. Or, perhaps worse, she would have stuck it out. They would still be living in an unhappy, bitterly depressed marriage.

Universities and colleges, by the way, exist to edify the mind. You can only do that when you encourage openness of thought, not closed mindedness.

Maybe they're concerned that they'll get turned on by the sight of two men kissing. Maybe they are too insecure about their own sexual orientation.

A question I have is, how come the people who are the most concerned about gay people looking at them sexually are the ugliest people?

After reading these replies I think I have to agree with rottmom, its a fear factor, People as a whole fear anything that is different or unknown to them, also they have a tendency when afraid to agree with the majority even if them thierselves do not have the same outlook or opinions. I also believe people are so comfortable in thier lifestyles now, that accepting someone that does not fit into it terrifies them.

I also agree the ick factor is there for some, but I honestly dont think thats the cause of the hate. People dont hate everything that icks them out, they just avoid it, or in some cases are even more drawn to it and facinated by it.

From reading replies to questions I asked in another topic on the GLBT issues which Im still thinking about, IMO that misunderstanding, speculation, munipulation, isolation and ignorance of a another type of lifestyle are the greatest cause of fear and hate of the GLBT community.

When I hold my partner's hand in public I'm not trying to cram anything down anyone's throat. I have only had one partner my entire life. We've been together since I was 20. I think I should at least feel free to hold her hand.

While it's true that many heterosexual men like the idea of two women having sex, they may not be too keen on two women who have an actual complete relationship. I have been asked "Why do you hate men?" And the simple answer is I don't hate men, and I don't know why it's assumed that I do. I have male friends and relatives and I like them just fine. I can only imagine that the men who ask me this question equate not having romantic feelings for men to hating men. Perhaps it challenges their position in society because a woman who is gay is basically saying "I don't need a man to support me or make me happy."

Gay people also challenge gender roles in society. I've had people ask me "So who's the man in your relationship." And there is no man in our relationship. We both do the dishes and we both take out the trash. I mean, if you've locked yourself into a gender role in your relationship that's your own fault. Gay people prove that there's no excuse for a man not doing the laundry and no excuse for a woman not taking out the trash. There's no reason why a man can't stay home with the kids and no reason why a woman can't work. So maybe some people hate gays because we completely throw out gender roles and it challenges their role in society.

it's like this. Many people I know who 'hate gays' are actually gay themselves (closet cases). Go figure!

Its true that the same mentality of racism is also linked to homophobia. However, victims of racism hate being compared to homosexuals because they feel that homosexuality is a choice. Race is obviously not a choice. This is probably why Bush increased his percentage of African American voters. Until science can prove that homosexuality is not a choice, people will continue to be insensitive to homosexuals.

Uh, many of the folks that hate gays think that the universe came into being roughly 6-7 thousand years ago.

Science can't prove anything to such people.