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Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Energy Independence, Environment, Science and Technology > Energy, Environment, Science and Technology Issues Archive
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Kathy
beamer619 Oct 10 2004, 07:52 PM


QUOTE
PUMP DREAMS
by JOHN CASSIDY

Is energy independence an impossible goal?

Issue of 2004-10-11
Posted 2004-10-04

In the predawn hours of October 6, 1973, on Yom Kippur, Egyptian and Syrian forces launched a surprise attack on Israeli positions in the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights. Two weeks later, after the Pentagon had started airlifting matériel to Israel, to counter Soviet shipments to Egypt and Syria, King Faisal, of Saudi Arabia, cut off his country’s oil exports to the United States. Other members of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, which had been founded in Baghdad thirteen years earlier, followed Faisal’s lead. Almost overnight, the price of crude oil doubled. Gasoline prices rose sharply, shortages developed, and a new phrase entered the American lexicon: “gas lines.” On November 7th, President Nixon, already under pressure from Watergate, addressed an anxious country, saying, “Let us set as our national goal, in the spirit of Apollo, with the determination of the Manhattan Project, that by the end of this decade we will have developed the potential to meet our own energy needs without depending on any foreign energy source.”

More than thirty years later, Nixon, Leonid Brezhnev, Anwar Sadat, Hafez al-Assad, and Golda Meir are all dead—and so is King Faisal, who was assassinated by his nephew in 1975—but energy independence has returned as a major issue. The price of crude recently touched fifty dollars a barrel, drivers in many parts of the country are paying more than two dollars a gallon for gasoline, and both Presidential candidates have been sounding uncannily like Nixon. “I want an America that relies on its own ingenuity and innovation—not on the Saudi royal family,” Senator John Kerry said in his speech at the Democratic Convention, in July. “And our energy plan for a stronger America will invest in new technologies and alternative fuels and the cars of the future—so that no young American in uniform will ever be held hostage to our dependence on oil from the Middle East.” President Bush has countered by pushing his own energy agenda, which includes a controversial proposal to begin drilling for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, an idea that Congress has so far rejected. “We will make our country less dependent on foreign sources of energy,” Bush told the Republican Convention.

Although the Democratic and Republican energy plans differ widely, their underlying rationale is the same. In 2003, the United States consumed some twenty million barrels of oil a day, of which slightly more than half was imported from abroad, much of it from the Persian Gulf. By 2020, according to the Department of Energy, domestic oil producers will be meeting less than a third of United States needs, and the Gulf countries will be supplying up to two-thirds of the world’s oil. “This imbalance, if allowed to continue, will inevitably undermine our economy, our standard of living, and our national security,” the Bush Administration’s National Energy Policy Development Group warned in a May, 2001, report. “But it is not beyond our power to correct. America leads the world in scientific achievement, technical skill, and entrepreneurial drive. Within our country are abundant natural resources, unrivaled technology, and unlimited human creativity. With forward-looking leadership and sensible policies, we can meet our future energy demands and promote energy conservation, and do so in environmentally responsible ways that set a standard for the world.”

When energy independence is presented in this way, it is hard to object—who would advocate energy dependence?—but optimism and an appeal to American patriotism don’t add up to a coherent policy. Moving beyond rhetoric and actually trying to make America less reliant on foreign oil involves confronting powerful commercial interests, solving difficult technological problems, and convincing the American public that cheap fuel is not a birthright.



The two hundred and ninety million people who live in the United States make up just five per cent of the world’s population, but they consume a quarter of the world’s oil supply. For much of the twentieth century, the United States was the world’s largest oil producer, and its profligacy wasn’t a pressing problem. Today, however, we are only the third-largest producer, behind Saudi Arabia and Russia. In terms of proven reserves—oil deposits that are known to exist and are believed to be accessible at reasonable cost—we have slipped to tenth place in the international rankings, as reservoirs in Texas, Louisiana, and Oklahoma have started to dry up.

According to the oil company BP’s “Statistical Review of World Energy,” a recognized authority on these matters, at the end of 2003 the United States possessed thirty-one billion barrels of proven reserves, more than China and less than Nigeria. These figures have a straightforward implication: if the United States were forced to rely on its own resources, it would run out of oil in four years and three months. This calculation takes into account the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which President Ford created in 1975, and which is stored at a number of sites in Texas and Louisiana. At full capacity, the reserve contains about seven hundred million barrels of oil—enough to keep the economy going for a few months during an emergency, such as the outbreak of a war that would cut the supply lines to the Middle East, but not nearly enough to keep gasoline prices low for a more extended period, which is what some politicians have suggested. “The purpose of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, from its inception, was never to bring down the price of oil,” Larry Goldstein, the president of the Petroleum Industry Research Foundation, told me. “It was to minimize the economic dislocation during supply disruptions, unforeseen shocks to the market.”

The Bush Administration, which has proposed expanded tax breaks for drilling and exploration, apparently believes that there is plenty of oil yet to be discovered beneath the North American continent, a view not shared by the oil industry, which has cut back sharply on domestic drilling. Not so long ago, the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico were considered a fertile exploration area. Lately, after much costly and frustrating drilling, it has proved something of a disappointment. Lee Raymond, the chairman and chief executive of ExxonMobil, was recently moved to comment that the company would have done better financially if it had given up after sinking a single well there.

The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, on Alaska’s North Slope, is the new hope. The Prudhoe Bay oil field, one of the world’s biggest reservoirs, is just sixty miles west of the refuge. Surveys carried out by the U.S. Geological Survey suggest that anwr may contain about ten billion barrels of recoverable oil. If this estimate turns out to be reliable, and if exploration starts next year, in 2025 anwr could be generating about a million barrels of oil a day. This is a lot of fuel, but it dwindles next to our energy requirements. By 2025, according to the Department of Energy, Americans will be consuming almost thirty million barrels a day. With luck, an anwr oil field operating at full capacity could satisfy perhaps three or four per cent of that total, meaning that most of the oil we use would still have to be imported.



Senator Kerry’s ambitious energy plan, which doesn’t include drilling in the Arctic preserve, comes in two parts. The less publicized piece involves promoting natural gas and coal, two hydrocarbons that already meet about half of America’s energy needs, mostly in the form of fuel for power stations. Kerry says that he will build a gas pipeline from Alaska, where there are large deposits of natural gas, and invest ten billion dollars in modernizing antiquated coal plants.

These ideas have merit—global stocks of natural gas and coal are huge—but they don’t represent a panacea. As natural gas has come to be used more widely in the United States, we have started to import large quantities of it from foreign producers. America possesses just three per cent of the world’s known reserves; Iran, Russia, and Qatar together possess more than fifty per cent. There can be no guarantee that a future government in Tehran, Moscow, or Doha won’t seek to exercise its market power in the same way that opec did in the nineteen-seventies.

Coal is less subject to political uncertainty, and Nazi Germany demonstrated that it can fairly easily be converted to gasoline. It is still abundant in the United States and in many other countries that are short of oil, such as China and India and some European countries. Modern coal-fired power plants don’t emit nearly as much nitrogen oxide and sulfur dioxide, the two main sources of acid rain, as older plants do. However, burning coal inevitably generates carbon dioxide, the gas primarily responsible for global warming, which even the Bush Administration has now admitted is a genuine phenomenon. It is feasible to sequester the carbon dioxide, but scientists are divided about whether it will prove possible to store it someplace where it won’t get released into the atmosphere. Since 1996, Statoil, a Norwegian company, has been injecting about a million metric tons of carbon dioxide a year into an aquifer under the North Sea. “People like myself have a lot of confidence that this will work,” Bob Williams, a physicist at the Princeton Environmental Institute, told me. “But we can’t say it with certainty until we do a lot more experiments. Nobody is going to be convinced by one demonstration project in the North Sea. You don’t want CO2 to come up into your basement from an underground storage area.”

Many environmentalists see any attempt to prolong our dependence on hydrocarbons as dubious. The Apollo Alliance, an influential umbrella organization of Greens and trade unionists, is calling for the development of power derived from the sun, the oceans, and crops, which it says will enable the country to achieve energy independence within a generation. Senator Kerry has adopted some of the Apollo Alliance’s rhetoric, calling energy independence “the great project of our generation.” The second half of his plan, the conservation and alternative-energy part, includes a pledge to make sure that twenty per cent of America’s electricity comes from renewable energy sources by 2020. Since about ten per cent of the power supply already comes from alternative-energy plants—hydroelectric plants, mainly—this doesn’t sound like an overambitious target, and it hardly amounts to energy independence.

Yet, even getting to twenty per cent represents a big challenge. Power generated from waves, windmills, and solar panels is weak, intermittent, and expensive—at least twice the cost of electricity produced from coal or gas. When it is cold or dark, solar panels don’t produce energy; when it is calm, wind turbines don’t turn. To insure continuity of supply, renewable power plants have to budget for large amounts of overcapacity, a problem that isn’t going to disappear. And, although alternative energy is getting cheaper as technology improves, the same is true of energy generated from hydrocarbons. “He”—Kerry—“is asking for an awful lot without telling us how he’s going to get there and at what cost,” Robert Ebel, a veteran oil-industry executive who once worked for the C.I.A. and now heads the energy program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, in Washington, said. “Where is the twenty per cent going to come from?”

There is another, more basic problem with Kerry’s proposals. Switching to renewable energy wouldn’t reduce oil imports much, because most power stations don’t run on oil, which is largely used for road and air transport. Developing a transport fuel that can compete with oil is an enormous challenge. For this reason, among others, many analysts regard the candidates’ endorsement of energy independence as a political diversion. “It makes absolutely no sense to talk about energy independence,” Ebel told me. “We cannot produce our way to energy independence, and we cannot use efficiency or conservation to achieve energy independence. It’s just not going to happen, at least in my lifetime.”



If the skeptics are right, what can be done? Some experts, such as Edward L. Morse, who worked in the State Department on energy issues during the Carter and Reagan Administrations, believe that new discoveries in Russia, Central Asia, and West Africa will eventually allow the United States to diversify its sources of petroleum. “The most recent giant field that was discovered was Kashagan, in Kazakhstan,” Morse told me. “That field probably has more oil in place than the total remaining known reserves of the United States. The exploitable resources in the former Soviet Union are probably on the same order of magnitude as those in Saudi Arabia and Iraq.”

Unfortunately, nobody knows for sure how much crude is buried in the Caspian region and Siberia, or how much it will cost to extract those reserves and transport them to world markets. Taking the planet as a whole, the rate at which oil is being discovered has slowed down since the nineteen-sixties, and some geologists believe that global production is about to start falling. Colin Campbell, a British geologist who used to work for major oil companies, has popularized this argument. “Understanding depletion is simple,” Campbell says on the Web site of the organization he founded, the Association for the Study of Peak Oil & Gas. “Think of an Irish pub. The glass starts full and ends empty. There are only so many more drinks to closing time. It’s the same with oil.”

The geological debate is difficult for an outsider to judge. All we know for sure is that proven reserves are concentrated in the Persian Gulf: Saudi Arabia (262.7 billion barrels), Iran (130.7 billion), Iraq (115 billion), the United Arab Emirates (97.8 billion), and Kuwait (96.5 billion). The only country in the Western Hemisphere that has reserves of comparable magnitude is Venezuela (78 billion barrels), which is also a member of opec and boasts a populist, left-leaning President, Hugo Chávez, who frequently rails against United States imperialism. opec oil, for all its geopolitical drawbacks, is cheap, easy to transport, and relatively clean if used efficiently.

One of the key strategic issues facing the United States is how to insure continued access to opec oil when other countries are also importing more fuel. During the past ten years, global demand for oil has risen by almost a fifth, with the greatest increases coming from India and China, which recently passed Japan to become the world’s second-largest consumer of crude oil.

The decision to invade Iraq represented one way to deal with the oil-dependency dilemma: direct American intervention. President Bush, a former Texas wildcatter, and Vice-President Cheney, the former chief executive of Halliburton, the world’s biggest oil-services company, both have an acute understanding of energy issues. In 1999, when Cheney was still at Halliburton, he gave a speech at London’s Institute of Petroleum in which he pointed out that by 2010 the world would probably need another fifty million barrels of oil a day. “So where is the oil going to come from?” Cheney asked. “While many regions of the world offer great oil opportunities, the Middle East, with two-thirds of the world’s oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies.”

As Vice-President, Cheney was put in charge of the National Energy Policy Development Group, which, in its May, 2001, report, pointed out that the Persian Gulf region would “remain vital to U.S. interests.” The Bush Administration hadn’t publicly raised the possibility of invading Iraq, but in August, 2002, seven months before the war started, Cheney warned that Saddam would be able to seize control of the world’s economic lifeline if he acquired weapons of mass destruction: “Armed with an arsenal of these weapons of terror, and seated atop ten per cent of the world’s oil reserves, Saddam Hussein could then be expected to seek domination of the entire Middle East, take control of a great portion of the world’s energy supplies, directly threaten America’s friends throughout the region, and subject the United States or any other nation to nuclear blackmail.”

Cheney has since been criticized for exaggerating the threat that Saddam represented, but the geostrategic thinking that underpinned the energy portions of his speech was not new. It dated back to January 23, 1980, when President Jimmy Carter declared, in his State of the Union address, “Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.”

Prior to the Carter Doctrine, the United States had exercised its influence in the Middle East through friendly governments in Saudi Arabia and Iran: the so-called “twin pillars” of American policy. But in January, 1979, a popular revolt toppled the Shah, and the new regime in Tehran tilted toward Moscow. Then, in December, 1979, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Following Carter’s speech, the Pentagon embarked on a lengthy military buildup in the Gulf, beginning with the creation of a Rapid Deployment Joint Task Force, which could be dispatched to the Middle East on short notice. In 1983, President Reagan went a step further, establishing a U.S. Central Command, based in Tampa, and charging it with defending U.S. interests in East Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia.

When Communism collapsed, the U.S. military didn’t withdraw from the Persian Gulf. After the Gulf War of 1991, it stationed its forces in Saudi Arabia, the Muslim holy land, and built up its presence in Qatar and Turkey. Saddam, after surviving one American-led invasion, eventually fell victim to Washington’s willingness to project its power militarily, a point that Michael T. Klare, a professor at Hampshire College, in Amherst, Massachusetts, stresses in his new book, “Blood and Oil.” “From the vantage of officers and enlisted personnel in the U.S. Central Command, the invasion of Iraq is only the latest in a series of military engagements in the Gulf proceeding from the Carter Doctrine,” Klare writes. “This history helps to explain why the very first military objective of Operation Iraqi Freedom was to secure control over the oil fields and refineries of southern Iraq.”



The policy of direct intervention hasn’t worked as planned. In April, 2003, just weeks after the invasion of Iraq, Vice-President Cheney predicted that by the end of the year Iraq would be able to raise its oil output as much as fifty per cent over prewar levels. Before the war, the Iraqi National Oil Company was pumping about two and a half million barrels a day. Now, with the help of money, personnel, and equipment provided by the American government, it is pumping about 1.8 million barrels a day—at least, on those days when insurgent attacks on pipelines and storage facilities don’t force a cut in production. Early hopes of a surge in foreign investment that would enable Iraq to double or triple production in the next few years have turned out to be fanciful. Western oil companies are understandably reluctant to invest in a country that seems to be slipping toward civil war. “Iraq has great potential, but it also has great problems,” Robert Ebel said. “I would give them perhaps four, or four and a half, million barrels of production a day by the end of the decade—certainly not the six million barrels the Iraqis are talking about.”

To energy traders, what is happening outside Iraq’s borders is at least as important as what is happening inside the country. The Bush Administration’s decision to take military action has destabilized the rest of the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia, and this has severely rattled the oil market. “People who trade oil futures in New York and London read ten articles saying that the Saudi regime is going to collapse, then they bid up the price of oil,” Robert Mabro, the chairman of the Oxford Institute of Energy Studies and an internationally renowned expert on oil, told me last week. “The fears may be exaggerated, but they are having a big effect on the oil price.”

Contrary to popular belief, the opec cartel, led by Saudi Arabia, no longer controls the price of oil, and hasn’t done so since 1986, when the price collapsed. The price is determined by the forces of supply and demand, operating through the futures markets in New York and London, where oil is traded like any other commodity. During the past couple of years, opec’s eleven members have raised their daily production by almost three million barrels to meet rising demand, and they don’t have much spare capacity left. Futures traders believe that another interruption in supply could lead to a crisis in the market. This has led them to bid up the current price by about fifteen dollars a barrel since the start of the year, an increase that is sometimes referred to in the markets as a security premium. “The recent terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia and the continuing attacks on oil infrastructure in Iraq are largely responsible for the extant security premium in crude-oil prices,” John Kilduff, an energy analyst at the brokerage firm Fimat USA, said in recent testimony before the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources. “Historically, Saudi Arabia has been the stalwart in terms of being able to fill production gaps when they have occurred. The mere idea that the kingdom may be the source of a supply disruption has caused available crude to become even more valuable in the face of such an uncertainty.”

By invading Iraq, the Bush Administration has unwittingly helped to create what its National Energy Policy was designed to avoid: rising oil prices that threaten to derail the economic recovery. When the price of fuel goes up, it acts like a tax on the economy, reducing consumers’ purchasing power and raising firms’ costs. After the oil-price shocks of both 1973 and 1979, the economy went into a recession. So far this year, the economy has continued to grow, but the rate of expansion has fallen, a development that Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, has largely blamed on rising oil prices.

In light of what is happening in the oil market and in the Middle East, many analysts believe it is time to reassess the Carter Doctrine and its Bush-Cheney variant. “I think we are pretty much at the end of the line,” Jeffrey Sachs, the director of Columbia University’s Earth Institute, who also serves as a special adviser to Kofi Annan, the United Nations Secretary-General, told me. “Saudi Arabia is pretty rapidly destabilizing. Iraq I don’t think we are ever going to get under control this way. And our relationship with Iran is poor and deteriorating. The idea that we are going to be the dominant military power of the Persian Gulf is an extremely unrealistic way to manage our affairs. I don’t have an automatic solution. I just think that this one—where we keep building up the military commitment because it keeps failing—is a loser.” A less provocative United States policy stance would involve reducing the American military presence in the Gulf while retaining a veto over what happens there. (American disengagement, which Senator Kerry sometimes seems to advocate, is neither realistic nor desirable.) “The only sensible policy in the Middle East for a superpower is one of benign protection,” Robert Mabro said. “‘Don’t misbehave, boys! If you start misbehaving, we might intervene.’ But we aren’t going to be there all the time.”

From an economic vantage point, a strategy based on Realpolitik makes sense. To meet the rising demand for oil in the coming decades, the Gulf states need to spend tens of billions of dollars on expanding their capacity, an enormous capital investment that is unlikely to materialize in a hostile environment. Some opec members already favor keeping the supply tight so that prices will stay high. As in the past, the West will have to rely on the Saudi government to be the voice of moderation. “If you are sitting on a very large reserve base, as Saudi Arabia is, you don’t want somebody coming along and saying, ‘We are really going to make a push to develop an alternative to the internal-combustion engine,’” Robert Ebel said. “You have a division of opinion within opec, but Saudi Arabia is big enough to call the shots.”



For decades, energy policy has been subject to a simple political divide: Republicans tend to favor increasing supply; Democrats tend to favor reducing demand. If this split ever made sense, it doesn’t any longer—something that Senator Kerry, to his credit, has grasped, despite his lack of candor about Middle East oil. “There is no single thing out there that is going to solve the problem,” Larry Goldstein said. “You have to focus on the supply side as well as the demand side.” Amy Myers Jaffe, a senior fellow at Rice University’s James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy, who heads a joint task force on the future of energy with the Council on Foreign Relations, concurs. “A coherent policy has to be a combination of everything,” she said.

Considering Americans’ voracious demand for fuel, the first step is conservation. The measures that Bush and Kerry have proposed, such as providing tax breaks to people who buy gas-electricity hybrids and cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells, are halfhearted. (American carmakers have just started to market these vehicles, in very limited numbers.) A quicker and less costly way to conserve fuel would be to tighten up the Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency standards, which President Ford introduced. The fuel-efficiency requirements—27.5 miles per gallon for cars; 21 miles per gallon for light trucks—have hardly been raised since 1986. Moreover, many S.U.V.s are officially classed as light trucks, which means they are subject to less stringent requirements. If this loophole was closed, at least according to some estimates, demand for gasoline would drop by a million barrels a day—two-thirds of what we import from Saudi Arabia. Yet neither candidate has been willing to face down the auto industry and come out in favor of making the change.

Getting serious about conservation would be a lot more practical than talking about the “hydrogen economy.” In January, 2002, the Bush Administration launched its FreedomCAR Initiative, which was intended to produce an affordable hydrogen-powered automobile within ten or fifteen years. Not to be outdone, Senator Kerry has called for the establishment of a taxpayer-funded Hydrogen Institute, which, his campaign says, would “unite scientists and researchers to create a New Energy Economy by 2020.” These grandiose plans are unlikely to be realized. In his new book, “The Hype About Hydrogen,” Joseph Romm, a former Assistant Secretary of Energy in the Clinton Administration, points out that as far back as 1923 the British scientist John Haldane described an energy economy based on liquefied hydrogen stored in underground tanks. Since Haldane’s day, a great deal of scientific effort has been expended on hydrogen fuel cells, but hydrogen-powered cars are still underpowered, unreliable, and costly. Hydrogen itself is also expensive, because it rarely exists in pure form. The cheapest way to obtain it is to burn coal or natural gas, which produces hydrogen and carbon dioxide.

For this reason, if no other, many experts say that increasing the supply of fossil fuels is essential. “It can’t be our policy that we will never drill for energy in the United States, that we will never have any new import terminals for liquid natural gas, or that we don’t mine coalfields,” Jaffe said. Many people seem to be confused about where the power to light their homes comes from, she went on. “You have movements of canoeists that want to shut down every hydroelectric plant in the country. You have people who believe we shouldn’t renew the leases for nuclear plants. Nobody wants a liquid-natural-gas terminal near their home. They don’t want any drilling for natural gas or oil. The public is really not up to speed on energy issues.”

Many Americans also appear to believe that they are entitled to cheap fuel, regardless of how much they consume. When gasoline hits two dollars a gallon, they look for somebody to blame—this despite the fact that gasoline is still cheaper than it was in the nineteen-seventies, after adjusting for inflation, and that it costs a lot less than it does abroad. In the United Kingdom, for example, a gallon of gasoline costs more than five dollars.

No prominent politician will say it publicly, but from an energy perspective an extended period of higher fuel prices might well be just what the country needs. Many of the problems we now face can be traced to the nineteen-nineties, when oil prices collapsed. Between 1976 and 1985, when gasoline prices were high, drivers switched to smaller, less wasteful cars, and oil consumption fell by ten per cent. Once oil prices slipped back, Americans returned to their beloved gas-guzzlers. Between 1985 and 2000, the demand for oil rose by almost twenty-five per cent.

Higher energy prices would have many beneficial effects. Besides encouraging gasoline conservation, they would help the renewable-energy sector, which can’t compete at today’s prices, and they also would make it economical to start exploiting nonconventional supplies of oil, such as oil shale in the Rockies, tar sands in Alberta, Canada, and heavy oil in Venezuela’s Orinoco Belt. “Under any reasonable economic scenario, in twenty-five or thirty years we will be using more alternative fuels,” Jeffrey Sachs said. “We will be gasifying coal and we will be liquefying tar sands, and doing a lot of things that mean opec’s bargaining power will be reduced.”

The most straightforward way to keep energy prices up, and the one that most developed countries adopt, is to tax hydrocarbons—a policy proposal long regarded as political suicide in the United States. The federal tax on gasoline hasn’t gone up since 1993, when President Clinton raised it a paltry four cents a gallon. Americans prefer lower prices at the pump even if they have to pay hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes to support a U.S. military presence in the Middle East. Amy Myers Jaffe has calculated that the cost to taxpayers of oil-related military activities is equivalent to about ten cents per gallon of gasoline. “We are being taxed on energy in this country,” she said. “It’s just hidden.”

Given the public’s ignorance about energy issues, and the entrenched interests that dominate the industry, many analysts are skeptical about the prospects for change. Jaffe believes that it will take a repeat of what happened in the seventies to force meaningful reforms. Joseph Romm said, “If people cared about oil imports they would buy different cars. In response to 9/11, people started putting flags on their S.U.V.s and buying Hummers. That tells you something.”

Before any progress can be made, the political debate will have to move beyond the myth of energy independence. “Sooner or later, we are going to have a lot of hybrid cars, electric cars, and, perhaps, at some time in the future, we are going to have a hydrogen economy,” Robert Mabro told me. “But, until we get there, to talk about energy independence is foolish. The two candidates, with due respect, are lying to the people, or they don’t know what they are talking about.”


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?041011fa_fact
Kathy
Freedom4all Oct 11 2004, 03:07 PM

Energy Independence is a Political Choice - so is apathy.

John Kerry had the courage to talk about a failed political war in Vietnam - and he has the courage to talk about a failed energy policy in the Middle East.

Talking about energy independence is the role of a leader - and YES we can achieve energy independence within Ten Years.

Americans have many choices - and Choice itself is the key to energy independence.

"America stands at a crossroad, a choice between two very different futures. One choice leads to increased dependence on foreign oil and a future dominated by terrorism and war. The other choice leads to American energy independence and a world economy that is no longer desperate for oil."
www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com

The following web page gives a detailed example for how to achieve energy independence within ten years:
Biodiesel
Biodiesel is only one of many examples that can be found on the American Energy Independence web site.


--------------------

Make Energy Not War
Future wars could be prevented if everyone who has taken a stand against the war in Iraq would turn their passion toward the goal of American Energy Independence. Standing against war is not enough – Standing together for Energy Independence will create a positive political force and a shared national dream.
Peace through energy independence
Kathy
big sky brad Oct 11 2004, 08:21 PM


It sounds like John Cassidy has been listening to too much Bush lately.

"What's with all the negative waves, man?"
Kathy
Freedom4all Oct 11 2004, 08:29 PM

John Kerry and John Edwards will put America on the path toward energy independence. Harnessing the full force of American optimism and ingenuity, they will invest in new technologies and alternative fuels, create tax incentives that help automakers produce more fuel-efficient cars, and reward the consumers who buy them.

Kerry Outlines Energy Plan that will Make America Safer, Stronger and More Secure
Delivering a speech in Santa Fe, NM, Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry Monday highlighted his commitment to making America independent of Middle East Oil.

In his remarks, Kerry criticized the president’s wrong energy choices over the last four years, choices which have helped the oil industry but have squeezed families and been bad for America’s security, economy and environment.

Kerry stressed that it is time for a new direction in America, and he laid out his five-point energy plan that relies on American ingenuity and innovation to make America safer, stronger and more secure.

“Instead of standing up for you, George Bush has chosen secret meetings with the energy industry behind closed doors in the White House, where they can make their case, but there’s no one there to make yours,” Kerry said. “And after four years of empty rhetoric and inaction, the Republican-controlled Congress is ending another session without passing a good energy bill for America. At the end of the day, George Bush just couldn’t get it done. Just like with jobs, health care, and education, the president has more excuses than results.”

While oil companies have raked in record profits under Bush and been at the table to set energy policy, America’s families, security, economy and environment have suffered as a result of Bush’s choices.

America is now more dependent on foreign oil than when Bush came into office, putting our security at risk. Families are paying 38 percent more at the pump, hurting our economy, and the administration is trying to exempt oil companies and gas companies from Clean Water Act requirements that limit pollution, threatening our environment.

“Just like on every other issue, they’ll tell you they have an energy plan,” Kerry said. “But as usual, it’s a plan that warms the hearts of their powerful friends and leaves you out in the cold.”

Kerry today said he has a real energy plan, one that will harness the full force of American ingenuity to create the energy of the future and make America independent of Middle East Oil. His plan will increase fuel efficiency, lower energy prices, produce alternative and renewable sources of energy, and create new energy jobs in America, not in the Middle East.

Unlike the Bush plan, the Kerry-Edwards energy plan will make America safer, stronger and more secure.

“For the sake of our children, for the sake of our security, for the sake of our economy, for the sake of our environment - we must meet that challenge and make America energy independent of Mideast oil.”
-John Kerry


--------------------

Make Energy Not War
Future wars could be prevented if everyone who has taken a stand against the war in Iraq would turn their passion toward the goal of American Energy Independence. Standing against war is not enough – Standing together for Energy Independence will create a positive political force and a shared national dream.
Peace through energy independence
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 13 2004, 11:17 AM

Has Bush made America's energy situation worse? Certainly.

Can we achieve energy independence.
While it sounds like a great goal
NO. No more than we can have oxygen, wind, sunshine or water independence.

A pipe dream, a distracting one. Shows no real understanding of how energy works, where it comes from, how energy markets must work at a fundemental level (regardless of the particular foilbles of our current energy markets).

Leads us down a dead end path to even try.

Want a secure, reliable source of energy, at fair/reasonable prices?

Back demoocracy in the ME. Stop backing dictators/kleptos/thugs in ME.

Inherent in Kerry's energy independence "goal"/distraction is a couple implicit assumptions:
1.places like Saudi Arabia, Nigieria, Azerbijan, Kuwait, Iraq can never have a democracy. Forever condemned to unstable regimes, wars, etc.

2. Even if ME, Nigeria became democratic, somehow they would not wish, would not be able to supply oil.

3. the only way to get enough oil, at a price we are willing to pay is through war.

That is the real scary part of Kerry's energy independence, is those implicit assumptions.

I mean even if energy independence were physically possible, is not deciding that is what we should work for, making thos eimplicit assumptions, namely oil producing countries will never be stable (democratic) or will never be able/willing to sell us oil, and thus wishing to not have to get it by force, we choose independence.

Of course, there is another assumption, in the 3rd. namely, that America is not willing to pay the true, fair cost of oil.
Kathy
Freedom4all Oct 13 2004, 01:42 PM

tlfeet:

You are living in the past.

We have many options for energy independence - all options require vision and determination - and choice!

- See post above.
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 13 2004, 03:02 PM

Living in the past?

Not all just facing the basic facts, has nothign to do with politics, current economic systems, oil markets . . . just the basic facts.

Now, I might wish for energy independence. I can certainly see places we coul duse less oil.
But no matter if/who politics changes, no matter how greeat is sounds, no matter how much people may fervently wish there are som ebasic cold hard facts that will always be there.

It is called reality, reality in the nature of the physics & chemistry of energy production.

We can rant and rave about, complain or wish physics & chemistry are not fair, not to our liking . . .but never-the-less they are there, will always be there, and the best we can do is work within the bounds of nature.

I really do not want to give a physics/chemistry lecture. But that is what it boils down to. If you don't believe me, head off to shcool and study chemistry & physics (or do some research online).

So, I am not saying Kerry's plan won't work cause of politics, or the oil companies, or he lacks sufficent vision, orbecuase I do not want to see it work (I would in one sense), but it simply a basic matter of physics & chemistry of energy production, storage & usage (whatever transitory form it may take on its way).

But, my main concern is those implicit assumptions, that lie behind the wish for a plan.
1. writing off a large chunk of the planet to endless wars, turmoil
2. no hope for democracy in that part of the world.
3. the assumption that we will only get sufficient supplies, at reasonable (reasonable to us) prices, at th epoint of a gun.

Consider, if our major supplier were say Britian, would we even be worrying about energy independence? Would the topic even come up?

I did read #3, which is why I mentioned those pesky little things like physics & chemistry.
Yu may well wish, as hard as you are able for different laws of physics & chemistry, but sorry, they are not going to change becuase you wish them too. Even if everyobdy on the planet wished for a different set of physical & chemical realities, ain't going to happen . . . cause nature kinda ignores our wishes and does what it wants.

Now, to me that little glitch is actually a source of hope. Cause sooner or later, we America the West is going to have to realize that due to those basic fundamental laws of nature, we are going to have to figure out how to get along with the peoples of countries who are sitting on our oil.

Well, unless we choose to go back to pre-industrial type lifestyles. Not to mention find things like plastic, drugs, food additives, fibers, lubricants, etc. to also be useful. Cause the other thing people ignore is that not only do we burn oil, we also makea whole range of products out of oil.

What about hydrogen?
What about it?

Scientific American did any interesting pice. Focusing upon the production and movement of cars using various energy sources, oil, hydorgen, electricity, solar power.
To some extent, they looked at yes today's techonolgies, but they allso looked at it given any set of technolgies.

Things like, to get hydrogen you need to split water, That takes energy. How mcuh. OK, you've converted water to hydrogen, and are going to burn it in a car. How mcuh energy does it produce? Hwo far would a car go on that energy.

They looked at it from the point of view of thing slike well what if you had the most efficient conversion method, hows it come out? Hydrogen net result produces more pollution and takes more energy than oil.

The other funny kind of thin about these ideas is the "hydrogen" economy being tauted.

Sound great, if you ignore the fact that we already have one.
How so?

Another name for oil/gas is "hydro-carbons"
Now the word "hyrdo"in hydorcarbons does not refer to water . . . . it refers to . . . .
as if I have to spell it out . . . .all together now
the hydro in hydrocarbon refers to HYDROgen.
Kathy
Dan Wingfoot Oct 13 2004, 03:10 PM


A hydrogen economy makes sense when the hydrogen is produced by electricity generated by nuclear power. The population of America is too backward scientifically to have the political will to utilize this answer, however. A demogogue will always win elections against a candidate favoring the development of safe nuclear by scaring the daylights out of the scientifically ignorant among us with fuzzy science. Other nations will get the jump on us as oil reserves deplete and will eventually leave us behind in a generation or two to slip into our new place as a second-rate global power because we can't sustain our population and compete on the global stage because of lack of energy.
Kathy
jeffmoskin Oct 13 2004, 03:24 PM


So let's enact a carbon tax. It's been discussed many times. Bring the price of gas up to the world price of $5.00 a gallon. take the $3.00 in tax money and offset it with a sliding scale tax credit to every person with a JOB: a $5.00 per hour (or whatever the math comes out to) tax rebate, tapering off with higher base pay rates.

This will make possible a living wage; it won't cost businesses a nickel; it will discourage the use of big SUV's and encourage the use of carpools.

An idea whose time has come.

Cheap energy in America has always been an illusion. It's time to wake up.


--------------------






"It's not the people who vote that count. It's the people who count the votes." -Joseph Stalin
Kathy
lengould Oct 14 2004, 02:46 PM

QUOTE
(jeffmoskin @ Oct 13 2004, 03:24 PM)
So let's enact a carbon tax.



Exactly. Though much smarter than an inclusive carbon tax is an imported energy tax. Specifically intended to recover the 10 cents / gallon military subsidy. At that rate the tax would be enough to ensure that domestic bio- and synthetic alternatives would be developed, and the resulting increase in pump prices would encourage smaller vehicles.

Interesting to note the article's explicit statement about the motives of the current action in Iraq. And no-one disagrees. How surprising. Now, remind me, how many [hundreds of] times have I been insulted as a Canadian by americans for not joining the "war on terror"? (we do have forces in Afganistan hunting for Bin Laden who is the real threat, not for what he might do to North America but for what he might do to Saudi Arabia)
Kathy
borabora234 Oct 15 2004, 08:06 AM


QUOTE
(Freedom4all @ Oct 13 2004, 02:42 PM)
tlfeet:

You are living in the past.

We have many options for energy independence - all options require vision and determination - and choice!

- See post  above.




you make no sense on any of your post....you merely just attach links that are beyond economic reality. Again are you a geoscientist are have any natural resource background.
Kathy
JimHopf Oct 15 2004, 04:09 PM

In addition to not mentioning the "N-word" even once in the entire (long) article, the author made little reference to hybrid cars, and no reference to plug-in hybrids. With plug-in hybrids, the overall oil usage for a given driver (with typical driving habits) can be reduced by almost a factor of ten. Much of the reduction is the increased energy efficiency of the (hybrid) vehicle, with the other main factor being that most of the energy comes from the power grid, as opposed to the fuel, which is only used occassionally. This alone could eliminate the need for foreign oil.

We have ample, domestic options for electricity production (especially baseload production, which will be used to charge these vehicles at night), including renewables, advanaced nuclear, and clean coal. Unlike the hydrogen economy, which is indeed saddled with profound technical challenges, high costs, and massive infrastructure investments, this approach involves only minor technical advances, no real infrastructure investments, no major costs, and few changes in lifestyle, driving habits, how you fill up and/or operate your car, etc..... This technology is right around the corner, if we just care enough to use it. Synfuels (from coal, tar sands, etc...) are another possibility, albiet a significantly less desirable one.

Amen to the carbon tax idea. It's an idea whose time has already been here for some time now. I'm also open to removing the SUV exemption from CAFE, and/or taxes on non-renewable or foreign fuels.


Len,

I'm inclined to support the foreign fuel tax idea. One may say that the ME producers will just respond by lowering their prices so that their oil remains competative with (or cheaper than) the domestic alternatives. Their margins are certainly high enough to do that (with production costs of only a few dollars per barrel). But so what? Even that is a good deal, because it takes money (pure profit) that would have gone into their coffers, and sends it to our government instead. Instead of a money stream that may be used to support terrorism, it goes to reduce the budget defecit instead. What a no-brainer!

But this raises a question. Isn't this the very sort of thing that the WTO was formed to prevent. This is a tarriff in the classic sense of the word. A deliberate tax on a product from specific/foreign nations, with the express purpose of making their product less competative, and reducing their market share. Regardless of our high-minded sounding reasons for wanting to reduce foreign (read: Arab) energy dependence, this is really all it is. If we tried to put a foreign oil tax in place, won't the WTO intervene to stop it? Will OPEC sue?
Kathy
lengould Oct 15 2004, 06:33 PM


Jim: I know, I thought about that one for a long time. You think the Middle East would be upset, wait 'till you hear from Canada / Alberta

but have concluded it is still a necessary and justified step for the US, and still recommend it to you without reservation. It would be nice if your government also talked to ours and they both implemented the tax while NAFTA production avoided the tax, but as it may, from a global stability perspective, I'd still prefer to see it done.

What I believe would be justified is to implement it as a "security defense charge" of $10/bbl on every tanker ship (oil and LNG) arriving at US ports. That way a skilled diplomat could likely arrange for the WTO to not impose any countermeasures. And worst case, you might find a counter-tax imposed on all your exports to the Middle East.

You'd survive.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 15 2004, 06:52 PM


y'all

The field of metal air fuel cells, especially zinc air fuel cells, have long been known to be an efficient and clean way to generate power. The Lawrence Livermore National Labs had a ZAFC project sandbagged by the "bridge fuel" hydrogen PEM project, since the hydrogen fuel cells could still use petroleum/natural gas as fossil fuel sources. This was in 1997 BTW. The reason we have a democrat Norm Mineta as Transportation sec is because he supports hydrogen fuel projects.

http://www.llnl.gov/PAO/Newsstand/articles...-26-97zinc.html

Is the site describing the original project for commercialization. Now that the government went for hydrogen fuel cells whole hog, companies like eVionyx.com and Arotech are doing smaller demonstration projects, although the scientists know that metal air fuel cells' potential is huge. Especially in the Pacific Rim countries (the US, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Peru and most importantly China) who have the world's vast reserves of zinc. We don't want to be fighting the Chinese for the last drop of oil...do we ? ZAFCs are the bests way out of that.

Also, zinc is in vast supply and only costs fifty cents a pound. Platinum, the catalyst in hydrogen PEM fuel cells costs around $800 per OUNCE.

Oil will really start running out within thirty or so more years so we'd better get cracking !
Kathy
lengould Oct 15 2004, 08:32 PM

evdebs: More interesting description at http://www.metallicpower.com/. While this is an interesting possibility as an alternative energy carrier to hydrogen, it's not the only one.

More elegant, though perhaps more expensive, is the Vanadium Redox system, almost exactly the same but using a pair of Vanadium solution reactants with no potential for heavy metals mixing with air. See VRBPower from Vancouver at http://www.vrbpower.com. Certainly further on in development, and Mackenzie Bay Corp. of Michigan is just dying to expand a big vanadium resource in northern Quebec to supply the solutions.

Most elegant of all for vehicle applications is the "Boron Engine" cycle being developed, at least in theory, by G. R. L. Cowan at http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc In thuis cycle, everything is optimized to the absolute maximum. Any federal research organization with any sense should take this concept and simply develop the ~~~~ out of it until it is optimized, at which point there would be no further discussion of energy carriers.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 15 2004, 09:00 PM

len

Thanks for the links. I'm still "enamored" with zinc but can see why the DOE is looking into methane hydrates in the artic (see http://www.netl.doe.gov/ then search for 'methane hydrates'), where the CH4 potential is huge and US/Canada ties would create a huge pipeline possiblity via existing systems...

Still, it's got that single carbon atom attached ! Zinc is just as good a bet....maybe later.
Kathy
lengould Oct 16 2004, 03:30 AM

Interesting. DOE site a bit difficult to make out as far as immediate impact. Found this on a UofT site http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin1/000914b.asp which claims to have already proved existence of large deposit off west coast

<snip>"The gas energy contained in the 10-square kilometre area we surveyed is equivalent to six years of electricity consumption in Canada,” says physics professor Nigel Edwards. <snip>

So how many 10 x 11 (all north america) / 6 years = 17 square kilometers (per year) of resource are there? (eg. 100km x 100km = 600 yrs?? That's just one small location.) What difficulties in recovery?

Might be unwise to count on it for now. And if recovery looses even a small percentage to the atmosphere that would be a big problem given methane is about 10x worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 16 2004, 01:16 PM

len

Which is why I'm for zinc air fuel cells; proven recyclable clean power without a MiddleEast monopoly on supply. Pacific Rim countries ... vast supply of zinc... why stay with oil ? Go ZAFCs !
Kathy
elninophen Oct 16 2004, 02:21 PM


Well, the problem is that Bush has had his hands dipped in Texas oil for a long time. How much of a profit do you think these oil companies have made since the increase in oil prices??
Kathy
Sunny Daze Oct 16 2004, 02:34 PM



QUOTE
The field of metal air fuel cells, especially zinc air fuel cells, have long been known to be an efficient and clean way to generate power.



Generate Power??? Isn't the zinc used up during the electrochemical process? This process requires energy to reduce the Zinc back to its metal form so that the Zinc can be recycled to use again?. Where does that energy come from?



QUOTE
Also, zinc is in vast supply and only costs fifty cents a pound.  Platinum, the catalyst in hydrogen PEM fuel cells costs around $800 per OUNCE.



Pt is a catalyst and not used up in the process of coverting Hydrogen gas and Oxygen gas to water and electrical potential.

Still zinc-air fuel cells maybe a useful as portable power systems.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 16 2004, 03:51 PM



sunny

I support the 'no single fuel' alternative along with conservation espoused by Richard Heinberg in his book "The Party's Over" and now in "Powerdown", however ZAFCs were about the only technology that showed as a bright spot; hydrogen is a mirage.

Please check out EVWorld's article "Behold the power of zinc" at http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=121
shows that electrons aren't lost in this process and the fuel is clean and recyclable.
For more information on the recyclable nature ZAFCs and the postassium hydroxide catalyst, as opposed to hydrogen PEM fuel cells and their platinum catalyst, you can contact Dr. Jim Evans at UC Berkeley's metallurgy dept (he invented the processes mentioned in my post above regarding Lawrence Livermore Lab).

Zinc at $0.50 per pound and Platinum at $840 per ounce....which one is cheaper and in vastly more supply worldwide ?

Also, Fromthewilderness' "Why hydrogen is no solution" article at
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/...en_answers.html
should make all forum readers think twice before supporting Bush's hydrogen fuel cell program. Another reason to go with Zinc Air Fuel Cells.

eVionyx and Arotech are two other companies making ZAFCs.
Kathy
Sunny Daze Oct 17 2004, 01:02 PM


QUOTE
Zinc at $0.50 per pound and Platinum at $840 per ounce....which one is cheaper and in vastly more supply worldwide ?


Still, it is misleading to compare a catalyst to a reactant. Niether Hydrogen or Zinc-Air fuel cells produce energy. They use stored chemical energy (Hydrogen and Oxygen for Hydrogen fuel cells and Zinc and Oxygen for Zinc Air fuel cells) and convert that chemical energy into electrical potential energy for portable on demand use of elelctricy for power.

Indeed, ZAFCs may have a brighter future than Hydrogen fuel cells for many reasons. I am also a firm supporter of the development of multiple energy storage and conversion technologies.

We need to make sure we understand the difference between an energy source and the ways we can store, transport, and convert captured energy.

As an individual, I am focused on the many ways we might capture clean energy from our environment, a few of the more obvious ways such as wind, solar, geothermal, biomass, tides, and waves, without increasing CO2 emmisions into our atmosphere. A. Lovins among others has also pointed for years that energy conservation is a lower cost alternative to production of energy as well.

I am frustrated by our collective focus on one source, one technology solutions.
The "One size fits all" mentality is a major road block to moving our efforts forward.

This dificulty can be applied to the push for hydrogen fuel cells support from the government as well. ZAFCs should be researched and developed as indicated based on objective scientific research and engineering. As should any reasonalbe potential solution.. What the test for a "reasonable solution" is, I don't know.

The comments that disturb me most are such as, "Wind will only produce 10% to 20% of our needs".

Only! 10% from 10 diferent souces renewable resources would have obvious effect.

Lastly, I if I could see the future ( I can't of course) I would follow the path of technological and social solutions that reduces the rate at which we as the human race are adding to the overall amount of CO2 as quickly as possible.

I do know anything that goes against the natural laws of the universe will fail in the end and economics and the current bottom line which drive what research gets done is one of those things mother nature can't be bothered with. Its the Human Race's problem to solve.

This is where government, big or small, needs to step up to the plate and play as if it were the last game of the world series. If we don't win this game of CO2 reduction, the rules we have counted on for our civilization throughout recorded history will be changed at the start of the next season. I don't like the odds of surving, let alone winning, when the field of play is shifting under our collective feet.

Waring over what's left of dwindaling non-renewable resources only will bring us sooner to the end of those resources. If we want to make more misery in world mother nature will oblige us. We do however, have a better choice and I hope (Help, is on the way, hope is already here.) we in America will choose the better.

The game ain't over, till we give up.

To all those in the game with me, Cheers! and lets keep rolling and win this one before the rules change.
Kathy

borabora234
Oct 17 2004, 07:46 PM


QUOTE
(elninophen @ Oct 16 2004, 03:21 PM)
Well, the problem is that Bush has had his hands dipped in Texas oil for a long time. How much of a profit do you think these oil companies have made since the increase in oil prices??







The profit an oil company makes is irrelvant. The system in place is called capitalism which is purely driven on supply and demand. I suggest you do some homework and educate yourself on this extremely capital intensive industry and how difficult it is to actually find oil. By the way oil companies employ a lot of people at all skill levels and I'm sure quite a few people enjoys the profits these companies make to bolsetr there 401K holdings.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 17 2004, 10:36 PM


Yeah, and remember that the Saudis need to keep up the funding for those "charities" and madrassas in places like Deobandi Koranic School in India...
Kathy
elninophen Oct 18 2004, 06:15 AM

I fail to see why the profit of an oil company is irrelevant, especially when the Bush family profits heavily from these profits. Capitalism is fine, but when crony capitalism starts to set in and kickbacks are given to those in power, we have a serious problem. Rather than using diplomatic channels to negotiate with OPEC nations, the president is choosing to sit on it and let the Saudi royal family run our lives. It is essentially this connection that has prevented the solid development of non-petroleum based energy. Right now, China and India are using increasing amounts of gas and oil. Think about the economic benefits of being the first nation to design vehicles and an energy source that can free these nations and ourselves from the noose that the middle east has placed upon us. Or, would you rather just go to war and colonize the entire middle east?
Kathy
lengould Oct 18 2004, 08:47 AM

The US can already forget about being "the first" in anything to do with alternatives to the oil economy. There's 10 or 15 countries which are already so far ahead the US will be playing catch-up and buying foreign technology for many years to come.
Kathy
lengould Oct 18 2004, 10:41 AM

And BTW, with the Saudi royal family already owning 7% of ALL STOCKS ON THE NYSE, chances are your economy couldn't survive any move more dramatic than the current one.

And don't forget who you'll need to go to war with if you want absolute control of internationally traded petroleum. eg. china, india, russia. Sound like fun?
Kathy
TeachAmerica Oct 18 2004, 10:56 AM

Solar is ..... not good.

Gee, I'll rip down our 3K system then. Shoot.... it was 1/4 of the way towards paying itself off. It added value to my home. Added to my basis..... and yet didn't affect my property taxes. Rats. I thought it was a good thing financially. Never mind that it cut our energy use by..... 30 - 40%.

America just has to invest in ITSELF (our own homes!) to make huge changes in our energy use. In doing so lots of jobs will be created........ ones that can't be outsourced. If the government works at it, the American companies producing: solar panels, geothermal units, and wind generators will prosper and the prices will come down.

Our president can't even manage to mention HYBRIDS in a speech. He likes to push hydrogen... Then he gives tax breaks to businesses buying SUV's. Odd. You'd think he likes the idea that we are using plenty of oil.

(Let's not forget his ranch uses GEOTHERMAL!)

(New houses just need to be turned the right way and slightly remodeled to gain passive solar heating and cooling! Throw on solar cells where they make sense or geothermal.... Let the new homeowners start with a tax break for making the investment in helping energy resources rather than becoming another regular consumer. TALK ABOUT INVESTING IN OUR ECONOMY!!!)


--------------------


"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Goering. Hitler's Reich-Marshall
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 18 2004, 11:51 AM


"Pacific Rim countries ... vast supply of zinc... why stay with oil ?''

Actually, most zinc, I beleive comes from Africa, but OK, whether it ocmes from Pacific Rim or Africa or South Am.

If we are importing it, we are not independent. We just changed the source.

Similary with so-called idversification of oil sources. First, whether a particular tanker load comes from country X or country Y does not change the total amount of energy, nor how it is being allocated.

From geo-politcal point-of-view we are just changing the source of the "problems".

With current/similar policies (not just talking Bush admin vs Kerry admin, but US foreing policy - fairly consistant over 60 years) instead of having ME as "unstable" source we have just changed it to Nigeria being unstable source, or Kazakhstan being unstable source.

In addition, much of things like uranium, cadmium, Vanadium, etc. come from FOREIGN sources.

As to evil oil comanies & their profits & nefarious uses they are put to:
1. it really says nothing about where we get oil
2. it does suggest that corp law needs to change
3. argues that we help democracy take root in places like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Kazakhstan (where we are backing the local dictator - cause he has a terrorist porblem) so
a. kleptomanics aren't the ones benefiting from the oil revenue (amazing/not how much money many of these countries have got from oil - yet how poor the vast majority are)
b. even if a benign democractic SA wants to fund religious schools, so what? That is their right. But such schools proably would not be preaching hate.

If we switiched to other foreing sources, materials, what you don't think the major corps will get in on it. Shell will just sit back and whither away? Of course not they wil lget into those new businesses - and guess what, make tons of of those (at taxpayer expense), support dictators (we have to have a stable supply of zinc)

. . . it is silly to say our problem is oil. Our problem is failure to be honest about it in geo-political sense and in terms of corp & market laws/systems.

Our failure is not depending upon oil but self-defeating policies that cause the geo-political-economic-military mess.

Even if we switched from an oil based economy to a X-based economy, all of that failed geopolitical-economic-military problems will just occur in the "new" so-called enlighted approach.

In addition:
No one has directly address the much more serious points, that even dreaming of such a plan implies writing off huge swatches of the planet, to wars, upheaval, forever condemned to rule by despots, etc.


--------------------

I think it would be a good idea.
Some bald guy, who wore a sheet, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.
Kathy
lengould Oct 18 2004, 01:00 PM


QUOTE
(TeachAmerica @ Oct 18 2004, 10:56 AM)
Let the new homeowners start with a tax break for making the investment in helping energy resources rather than becoming another regular consumer. TALK ABOUT INVESTING IN OUR ECONOMY!!!)




Actually your economy can't afford to be giving tax breaks to anybody. (checked your deficit lately?) Any subsidies for application of any sort simply cause added problems by distorting the market. Far smarter for you to penalize with a tax the parts of the energy equation like imported energy that are causing the problems, and let the free market sort out what the most effective solutions are. Oh, but of course I forgot, can't do that 'cause that's what every other country in the world is doing.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 18 2004, 03:35 PM


all

With that champion of free markets, Red China, leading the way in growth of oil importation and seeking to equal the US in an auto industry... I guess there isn't any way out of an eventual fight for that last drop of oil. That is why I proposed Zinc Air Fuel Cells. Combined with other options we don't end up in cometition for that last drop of oil. China has large zinc resources as do North America, Peru, and Australia. The only other plausible resource is methane hydrates but that relys on artic sources and tech fixes.

The clock is running.
Kathy
Skeptics Oct 18 2004, 08:13 PM


QUOTE
I guess there isn't any way out of an eventual fight for that last drop of oil. That is why I proposed Zinc Air Fuel Cells.
I'm missing something. Please explain how it is that a zinc air fuel cell is different from a rechargeable battery. If it is like a rechargeable battery, from where will you get the energy to charge it?


I think you are confusing energy with energy storage. No?
Kathy
farmerTom Oct 18 2004, 11:32 PM

Renewable, domestic product, domestic refined, all American alcohol. Not much to convert a vehicle to burn alcohol, the cost of making good alcohol will drop considerably as demand goes up. Alcohol could eventually be sold out of the pump for about $1 gallon, why it takes a lot less in logistic expense, and refine cost, it grows on American farms....the numbers people spit at ya are gross exaggerations of a very profitable industry. Prove me wrong>>>>>>>>>
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 01:53 AM

From http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENE...ICY/tables.html

Physics Dept. Syracuse Univ.

Biased industry source.

Earth gets energy from 3 sources:

Sun (fusion) aka as biomass, alcohol, methane, oil, natural gas, petrol, hydroelectric, coal
Radioactive decay aka as geothermal, nuclear power (fission)
Gravitational aka tidal (although over long term Earth is losing same by imparting to Moon )

US uses approx 10^13 watts (10,000,000,000,000) energy all forms.
Solar 10^15 watts (1,000,000,000,000,000) watts landing upon US.

Yippee, we could go Solar, increase energy conspumption by 100 times, have room to spare.

But, no wait, that is the amount, total power, of all sunlight falling on every square inch of US.

Well we can't cover entire country in SuperEnhanced Solar Energy Converters (SESEC patent pending). . . Well I guess we could, but then where would we grow plants to eat, or to feed to cows to turn into methane?

Oops, forgot, plants.
OK, well worldwide plants use 10^14 watts out of 10^17 watts hitting all of the Earth.
US must be roughly same % - so US plants consume 10^12 of the watts hitting US.

OK, but US is not covered with huge numbers of SESEC, and if we did, we'd, have less plants.
So how much, how much land, would we have to give over to SESEC?

Well if our energy consumption is 100th of the Solar energy hitting US, then 1% of our land area needs to be covered in SESEC.
I propose all of Indiana + 0.5*Delaware (1% of 3.7*10^6 sq. mi.)
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108355.html

Now I was using a SESEC, which is special device which is 100% efficient.

2nd Law of Thermodynamics (another nasty corp conspiracy) says "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."

In plain English, no machine can be 100% efficient. It must, always loose energy. [Although I am running a special on perpetual motion machines. ]

A "machine" designed to convert Solar to any other form, electricity, biomass, oil, coal, matters not which, will not be able to convert all the energy in the sunlight into the preferred energy form.

It will loose something in the process. How much?

Well, today's solar collectors have an efficiency of about 22% so we would have to cover 5 Indianas and 2.5 Delawares, with todays Solar panels.
http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/v...ators-work.html

Now, a similar analysis could be done for other "forms" of solar energy. How much coal? How much water falling (do we want to dam every river)?
Using numbers discussed above, even if we could extract energy input into every plant every year and turn into electricity or such, we'd be short by 90% of our needs.

Then do same for nuclear.
Geothermal does not pan out either, unless we could drill hundreds of miles into Earth.

Notice. I said nothing about politcal system, organization of economy or energy markets. Does not matter if system is lassaiz-faire, or communist (Solar output, does not depend upon US society).
Said nothing about costs, taxes, evil solar panel multinationals, or nasty oil companies.
Also, said nothing about waste, pollution.

It boils down to how much energy is needed, how much is produced, how efficient it is to convert from one form or the other.
All Energy comes from solar (fussion), radioactive decay & gravity (goodbye Moon).
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 02:06 AM

Or You can do the math

pdf download

Source for thermodynamics:
Thermodynamics
Kathy
farmerTom Oct 19 2004, 04:55 AM


? Thought we were talking about powering our vehicles???? Quick to the Batmobile Robin!

Alcohol burns hot, less expansion than gasoline, but was in use here in the States during WWII. Its running most of Brazils vehicles (so I heard), so unless you are a Oil lobbiest the alcohol solution is immediate. It also will put another set of cash crops that american farmers can grow.

Acidic fruit like greatfruits and lemons make wine faster and stronger than other fruits, why. What's that mean for wood alcohol?? Less time in the fermenting tanks, higher yield in distilation.

Overnight litterately the country could convert to alcohol as its primary fuel for existing gas burners. Efficieant distillation is relitively cheap do to the fact that "its not a food/drink".

What are some good sources of sugars and yeist that can easily be cultivated here in the US? I think the yeist can easily be cultivated in old manufactoring/warehousing buildings. I've also heard tale of some oily based plants that put a "kick" in the alcohol fuel too. Once the alcohol is made its distrobution is very close, or close enough to gasoline that little expence will incure.

What are we waiting on...the "experts" to quit backing the oil companies mad.gif
Kathy
lengould Oct 19 2004, 07:50 AM


QUOTE
(tlfeet @ Oct 19 2004, 01:53 AM)

US uses approx 10^13 watts (10,000,000,000,000) energy all forms.
Solar 10^15 watts (1,000,000,000,000,000) watts landing upon US.






I think these figures are a little more believable. Not sure who put up that Syracuse website, but it's flat wrong.

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/public...solar/solar.asp

"Every year, the sun irradiates the earth's land masses with the equivalent of 19 trillion toe. A fraction of this energy could satisfy the world's energy requirements, around 9 billion toe per year"

eg. Current world energy use / suns irradiation ON LAND (after allowing for cloud covers etc) = 9 x 10^9 / 19 x 10^12 , approx. 1/2000 th
Kathy
lengould Oct 19 2004, 08:05 AM


Of course adjusting to high US usage v.s. world brings percentage to 3/1000, then adjusting to a 20% collector efficiency brings it up to 1.5%
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 09:26 AM

"Current world energy use / suns irradiation ON LAND (after allowing for cloud covers etc) = 9 x 10^9 / 19 x 10^12 , approx. 1/2000 th"

Agrees with Syracuse. Toe, btu, watt, joule, calorie are just various measures of energy, (like inches, miles, meters, microns, different scales of same thing. Btu for energy, inches etc for length.

Jeez I just love this. OK WEC says US consumes 1/1000 th of the total solar energy hitting US
Syracuse, say 1/100 th.
It does not matter, we are talking rough numbers, seeing if stuff will fit in the ballpark.

You'd still have to cover a good chunk of the US with solar panels - assuming of course they were actually built.
Allow for inefficiency of whatever conversion process system you choose. Currently roughly solar-panels are 22% efficient.
[I know someone is going to come along and say no, its 24.5% ]
The most efficient machines, of any type, are about 60% efficient. So go with 60% then.
You still have to cover a huge amount of area with solar-panels.

Alcohol?
Where does alcohol come from?
Plants.
Where do plants get their energy?
The Sun.

How much energy do ALL, plants in US get 10^12 of the watts
How much does US use? 10^15 watts.

10^15 >10^12

Meaning if we turned all plant energy into energy for us we would still be short.
Now if you turn plant energy into alcohol (or whatever form, methane, does not matter) you have changed nothing. You do not gain energy in the process.
In other words, if you turned all the enrgy going into all plants straight into alcohol, you still do not have enough energy.
In the process of conversion you loose a big chunk.

It would be more efficient to go straight from sun to SESEC and skip the plants (one less step in process means less energy lost in the conversion).

Others have mentioned:
OK getting cars of oil and onto grid (batteries), changes nothing either.
You just simply have to provide more energy to the grid (or batteries) You have not saved or gained any energy - you just changed its form from oil to electricty.

Yes, we do not have to get electricity from oil, but you still have to come up with the energy equivalent - it has to come from somewhere (the grid or batteries do not magically create energy).
You convert sunlight to electricity, or natural gas to electricity or coal into electricity, etc.
If all cars swithced to grid, grid inputs woul have to go up to cover the increased energy demanded from it by the cars.
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 09:44 AM

More importantly, most importantly:

The reason for energy independence is to avoid the unstable sources of energy, and all the foibles of multinationals, geopolitics, etc.

OK, say you switched to another system. Guess who is going to implement it? Large corporations/large government projects. You have not changed anything in that regard. It is not a matter of current econ/political systems. If you want large scale energy production, you have to have large scale entities doing it.

Joe's solar-panel shop on 4th & Main is not going to be able to do it. Not cause Joe is evil or is not smart, but because Joe can only produce some many solar-panels - either the Shells, GEs, GMs, get into it the bidness or Joe grows to become just as big.

I can just see it now, we go through all that work and in 100 years from now, people are complaining about giant solar-panel companies like Joes ripping them off. Which may or may not happen.

But that is not due to oil vs solar vs alcohol vs hydrogen, it would be due to the legal/politcal/economic systems adopted.

So rather than trying to do this technical fix to a political/ecnomic problem, why not just tackle the political/ecnomic issues?
Figure out ways to reign in or make more responsible the multinationals of the world. If you don't fix that, then it matters not whether we get our energy from oil, alcohol, perpetual motion machines, hydrogen or whatever.

If you do fix the foibles of multinationals/geo-politics then you do not have to worry about energy independence.

It is just a distraction!
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 10:16 AM


Sorry for some reason, it won't let me edit my posts.

OK, WEC says 1/1000 or 1/1200 or whatever.
OK so we have to cover 1/500 or 1/600 of US with solar-panels (allwoinf for 50% efficency)

How much is that? Hard to visualize? Is for me, anyway.

So, US land area is roughly 3.7 X 10^6 sq mi
1/600 th (best case?) is 6,166 sq mi. call it 6,000.

How much is that?
Well roads & parking lots cover something like 61,000 sq mi ( http://www.earth-policy.org/Alerts/Alert12.htm )


So 1/10 of what we have paved with roads & parking lots.
Or a little more than the land area devoted to rice cultivation. (5725 sq mi / 3,665,400 acres) http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/land/meta/m5266.html
Kathy
TeachAmerica Oct 19 2004, 10:47 AM


QUOTE(lengould @ Oct 18 2004, 10:00 AM)
QUOTE(TeachAmerica @ Oct 18 2004, 10:56 AM)
Let the new homeowners start with a tax break for making the investment in helping energy resources rather than becoming another regular consumer. TALK ABOUT INVESTING IN OUR ECONOMY!!!)



Actually your economy can't afford to be giving tax breaks to anybody. (checked your deficit lately?) Any subsidies for application of any sort simply cause added problems by distorting the market. Far smarter for you to penalize with a tax the parts of the energy equation like imported energy that are causing the problems, and let the free market sort out what the most effective solutions are. Oh, but of course I forgot, can't do that 'cause that's what every other country in the world is doing.






Let's see.... the government pays 50% (which is sort of outragous!!). In return, out of the 100% costs.... 50% goes to a worker who then pays taxes...... the government gets a huge chunk of it's change right back. If this worker was getting welfare or some other aid.... then add those savings. This doesn't count the profits the company that makes the panels will make. That doesn't count the workers at the plant making the solar panels. Or.... we can hand money back to people..... to pay for the increased oil demand.... and so the rich can find more tax free bonds to invest their "free" money in.
Kathy
evdebs Oct 19 2004, 11:19 AM


Skeptics

Just as you have energy expended in getting oil out of the ground and to the gas station, you have a zinc-recycling system needed to get the zinc oxide pellets out of the ZAFC and back into the zinc station. This is mentioned in Arotech's website information at http://www.electric-fuel.com/ev/index.shtml -- you have to read thru the brochures etc to get full information

and also at the EVWorld article on ZAFCs at http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=121

The Lawrence Livermore article from 1997 shows that this isn't anything to be 'skeptical' about http://www.llnl.gov/PAO/Newsstand/articles...-26-97zinc.html

Just read through the sites slowly and carefully and you will see this is something that compares more than favorably with the hydrogen fuel cell "pig in a poke" we are being sold already. The limitations of platinum and the Second Law of Thermodynamics with hydrogen apply more than equally with zinc. There is a vast supply of zinc and not a vast supply of hydrogen...this is what I'm merely pointing out to any true skeptic.

Again, I favor what Richard Heinberg has pointed out in "The Party's Over" and "Powerdown": conservation and full use of all viable power sources especially those that can be most "green" and environmentally sound. Zinc just happens to be one of them, and Heinberg mentions this in "The Party's Over".
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 12:06 PM

Zinc Production
http://www.indexmundi.com/en/commodities/m...nc_table01.html

US produces about 7.5% of world zinc production (mining).
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/com.../stat/tbl11.txt

Currently, that is not increasing zinc consupmtion by use in ubitquitous ZAFC, we import 40% of our zinc needs.

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/com...c/stat/tbl1.txt

Everything you wanted to know about zinc production/consumption: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/zinc/stat/

OK. So we are going to be energy independent by moving from oil, which we import, to zinc, which we import. How does that make us energy independent?

World's largest producers Canada, Australia, China & Peru.
Kathy
Freedom4all Oct 19 2004, 12:33 PM

evdebs-

Skeptics is questioning your assumptions about the energy source for the Zinc. The Zinc is not a source of energy - just as hydrogen is not a source of energy.

Yes, you get a one-time use of the new zinc pellets, but then the used zinc is recycled so it can be used again. The recycling process requires more energy than the recycled zinc pellets will return to the fuel cell.

Read the following excerpt from the link you provided:
"The ZAFC produces electricity by reacting zinc pellets with oxygen from the air. The reaction takes place in an electrochemical cell filled with an electrolyte. Under discharge, a reaction product (zinc oxide) gradually accumulates in the solution, while the oxygen reacts at a porous membrane forming one wall of the cell. The pellets are held in a hopper above the cell, and fall into the cell to be consumed on demand. This fuel cell is "refueled" by simply adding fresh zinc pellets to the hopper, and removing the zinc oxide as a slurry. The zinc oxide is then recycled to produce new zinc fuel pellets in an external zinc recovery unit, developed by Jim Evans at the Department of Metallurgy, UC Berkeley."

Skeptics is trying to get you to think about where the energy for the recycling will come from.

The article named the inventor of the Zinc Air Fuel Cell:
"The Laboratory's "refuelable" ZAFC technology was invented by John F. Cooper (principal investigator) of the Chemistry and Materials Science Department"

John F. Cooper has also invented a pure carbon fuel cell:
www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com/carbon.html


--------------------

Make Energy Not War
Future wars could be prevented if everyone who has taken a stand against the war in Iraq would turn their passion toward the goal of American Energy Independence. Standing against war is not enough – Standing together for Energy Independence will create a positive political force and a shared national dream.
Peace through energy independence
Kathy
lengould Oct 19 2004, 12:40 PM


evdebs: Actually, the world does not have a huge available supply of zinc, just of zinc oxide which, in order to use as a fuel will need a large energy input to convert to pure zinc. From which then you can get part of the energy back by converting back into zinc oxide in a fuel cell, leaving you again with zinc oxide .....


Teach & tlfeet: Agreed on most points. Especially finances. Only real cost inputs to manufacturing solar cells are sand and energy, plus a few exotic trace minerals. Nothing significant. Only reason it's not being done right now is that the incentives (read who profits, who looses current profits) are wrong. Fix that and the rest fixes itself.
Kathy
Freedom4all Oct 19 2004, 12:47 PM

Several of the previous posts have presented some very large numbers regarding solar energy and renewable biomass.

The American Energy Independence web site presents a solar energy web page that leads the reader through several simple arithmetic steps to help them prove to themselves that the United States could produce 100% of its electricity using existing concentrated solar Power (CSP) technology. building the power plants in the desert region of the Southwestern United States, using 10 Million acres of desert land - Do the math: America's Solar Energy Potential

Biodiesel made from Algae grown in ponds on 10 Million acres could supply 100% of U.S. transportation fuel.
Do the math:
www.AmericanEnergyIndependence.com/biodiesel.html


--------------------

Make Energy Not War
Future wars could be prevented if everyone who has taken a stand against the war in Iraq would turn their passion toward the goal of American Energy Independence. Standing against war is not enough – Standing together for Energy Independence will create a positive political force and a shared national dream.
Peace through energy independence
Kathy
tlfeet Oct 19 2004, 12:47 PM

QUOTE
Only real cost inputs to manufacturing solar cells are sand and energy, plus a few exotic trace minerals.


I was going to ask, what were the components of solar panels. No in terms of parts (e.g.frame, legs, cell, etc.) But what are they made of, silicon, metal, plastics I assume.


QUOTE
plus a few exotic trace minerals


And they would be? Many exoctic trace minerals come from unstable countries.

And % (by wieght/volume) of same.
Kathy
lengould Oct 19 2004, 12:54 PM

Also interesting is Dr. Micheal Antal at U of Hawaii, who is working on a carbon-fueled fuel cell, esp. taking advantage of the porous nature of carbons produced from eg. copra shells and other bio-refuse.

http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/fuelrd.asp

"Research in HNEI's Renewable Resources Research Laboratory has led to the development of a thermochemical process that can produce large quantities of biomass-derived carbon. Under the HEET Initiative, researchers will begin exploring the feasibility of using this energy source as a fuel for fuel cells. Biocarbon fuel cells developed under the initial phase of HEET resulted in the generation of about 400 mV (open-circuit), but power output was limited because of mechanical design considerations. Work will continue on defining appropriate cell geometry, construction materials, and operating protocols to permit the evaluation of this novel technology. Since biocarbons exhibit exceptionally high electrical conductivity, their use in high performance bipolar plates is being examined."
Kathy
lengould Oct 19 2004, 12:59 PM

QUOTE
(tlfeet @ Oct 19 2004, 12:47 PM)
And they would be?  Many exoctic trace minerals come from unstable countries.

And % (by wieght/volume) of same.






Not absolutely sure, but in general I don't think the dopants are significant in amount or availability to the overall process costs. Big cost inputs are energy and labour, if I'm not mistaken.

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