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hughesfan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Scooter's going down, but I would be lying if I said I was happy yesterday with the outcome of this thing. I of course wanted Rove to fall, and even Cheney, who I feel personifies evil. I wanted it badly, too. Now I find myself clinging to the wild hope that Scooter will "flip" as they say on Law & Order, and sing like a canary, bringing everyone down with him. I just wanted to see MANY aides, staffers, helpers, friends, whatever the he**, rounded up in handcuffs and carried off in a paddy-wagon! Coupled with the fact that the Meirs story is now a non-story, I was especially bummed about this far less than satisfactory outcome! anger.gif There was such a frenzied build up, only to have some clown named "Scooter" take the fall??? It just isn't enough... Thanks for letting me rant!
TheRestofUs
I wanted the whole gang brought to justice. I am let down at the moment, but I know one thing. That crew in the White House, by their silence on the central issue (outing a CIA Agent), has betrayed our country, and deeply enraged the Covert Community.

Those people will remember that.
MrJim
This is, by far, the biggest victory we have had in years against the Bush corruption. I don't feel let down. I also think that the investigation will continue, and that much bigger things are coming.

In addition to this investigation, the Wilson civil suit is being filed against BushCo.

This issue effectively cracks the stranglehold BushCo has over the Republican Party.

The one disappointment in this whole thing for me is the (so far) extremely weak response from the Democrats. I am beginning to believe the radical rhetoric that they are simply in the pockets of big business the same as the Republicans, and that, for any single Senator or Congressman, their sole purpose in Congress or the Senate is to hang on to their jobs any way possible.

Yes, I know that Reid, Kerry, and Pelosi came out with statements, but where is the rest of the gang? Waiting to fold on the next Supreme Court nomination?
graham4anything
Be happy.

Libby could get 30 years. These are BIG charges There were 5 indictments against him, and maybe there are 5 more coming up for Rove that are already sealed.

Cheney is going to have to testify if there is a trial. He is in deep trouble.

By having Rove hanging like he is, they can't celebrate or do more bad stuff. Rove is now known to be MR. A.
They are on the run.

It probably stopped a new war too if we are lucky

And Boltin may be going down. His name is over everything.
progressivephoenix
I am a little disappointed. I thought there would be more. I think there will be more in a few months. Be patient. chillpill.gif
wliberty
To be perfectly honest I feel like Hughesfan. If Rove had been charged too, it would have gone a long way to make me feel better. He so deserves it. Where is justice when the likes of Rove always walks? sad.gif
Gabrielle
I'm not dissappointed. I'm happy that the beginning of the end of this administration has begun. I am convinced this is not going to be unspun. And I believe Fitzgerald is not nearly done with Rove or Cheney.
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(MrJim @ Oct 29 2005, 12:25 PM)
This is, by far, the biggest victory we have had in years against the Bush corruption.  I don't feel let down.  I also think that the investigation will continue, and that much bigger things are coming.

In addition to this investigation, the Wilson civil suit is being filed against BushCo.

This issue effectively cracks the stranglehold BushCo has over the Republican Party.

The one disappointment in this whole thing for me is the (so far) extremely weak response from the Democrats.  I am beginning to believe the radical rhetoric that they are simply in the pockets of big business the same as the Republicans, and that, for any single Senator or Congressman, their sole purpose in Congress or the Senate is to hang on to their jobs any way possible.

Yes, I know that Reid, Kerry, and Pelosi came out with statements, but where is the rest of the gang?  Waiting to fold on the next Supreme Court nomination?
*


Boy, you really have it in for the Dems. Check out the headline in this article. By the way, don't forget that this happened on a Friday afternoon when most Senators were already on their way home. smile.gif

QUOTE
Democrats pounce on indictment
By Brian Knowlton International Herald Tribune

SATURDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2005


WASHINGTON Democrats wasted no time Friday in asserting that the indictment of I. Lewis Libby Jr., the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, reflected a recklessness by the Bush administration - perhaps at the very highest level, they suggested - that had endangered the national security.

"These are very serious charges," said Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Senate minority leader. "They suggest that a senior White House aide put politics ahead of our national security and the rule of law."

Christopher Wolf, attorney for Joseph Wilson 4th - whose wife, Valerie, is the CIA operative around whom the case is built - read a note from his client that praised the special prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, for his "professionalism, for his diligence, for his courage."

The note also said: "Whatever the final outcome of the investigation and the prosecution, I continue to believe that revealing my wife Valerie's secret CIA identity was very wrong and harmful to our nation, and I believe, I feel that my family was attacked for my speaking the truth about the events that led our country to war."

Republicans were slower than Democrats to react.

Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah offered a mixed verdict. While saying that the prosecutor apparently had been "reading something into the statute that I didn't read into the statute," he added: "Knowing Fitzgerald as I do, he's a competent, very, very good professional, and you have to doubt that he would bring charges that he didn't have backup for."

Hatch, a member of the Judiciary Committee, praised Libby as a serious and competent professional, saying, "We'll just have to see what happens."

But Democrats spoke of "corruption."

"There is a level of corruption here that seems to ignore these questions about national security in a very dangerous way," said Senator Byron Dorgan, Democrat of North Dakota. "This is an issue that potentially endangers our national security."

While some Republicans, including Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, have suggested that charges of perjury might be seen as trivial - unworthy fruits of a two-year-long investigation - Democrats have sought to give Libby's indictment the broadest interpretation.

"This case is bigger than the leak of highly classified information," said Reid. "It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the president."

Representative John Conyers of Michigan, the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, said, "The charges really beg the larger question: What did the president and vice president know about these and related matters, and when did they know it?"

While the president spent much of the day out of town, Democrats were quick to try to link him to the CIA leak scandal.

Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, Bush's rival in the 2004 elections, said the indictment provided "evidence of White House corruption at the very highest levels, far from the 'honor and dignity' the president pledged to restore to Washington just five years ago."

He added: "A chief architect of the war in Iraq, Scooter Libby, sworn to protect this country, used access to national security information not as weapons against our nation's enemies, but as weapons against someone who dared to ask tough questions of a dishonest policy. Then they tried to cover it up."

"Not only was America misled into war, but a Nixonian effort to silence dissent has now left Americans wondering whether they can trust anything this administration has to say."

Even a Republican, Representative Tom Petri of Wisconsin, commented, saying that "as so often happens with Washington scandals, it isn't the original scandal that gets people in the most trouble - it's the attempted cover-up."


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/28/news/react.php
Beamer
QUOTE
Democrats pounce on indictment
By Brian Knowlton International Herald Tribune

SATURDAY, OCTOBER 29, 2005


That's because they're so desperate for something to fight the Republicans with.

I personally thought there would be more indictments.
Mac2
The only thing disappointing to me is knowing how slowly the legal process works ( or does not work) today in this country!
graham4anything
You know what the funny thing is?

Anyone who voted for George Bush voted for Scooter Libby

They voted for allowing people to leak the names of agents who are doing their job

The ones who voted for George Bush41 and his 100 points of light and then voted for George Bush Idiot 43 and his 100 points of war

And would vote for that type again and again for the same thing

Thank God for people like Patrick Fitgerald. He should run for President as an Independent.

Wouldn't it be something and quite ironic if the message out of the new tv show "Commander in Chief" isn't that she is a woman. But that she is INDEPENDENT?

And maybe all the people that voted for Scooter Libby when they pushed the corroded button for George Bush41 and 43 should think of that next time they are in the booth.
Indianhead
QUOTE(Gabrielle @ Oct 29 2005, 11:08 AM)
I'm not dissappointed.  I'm happy that the beginning of the end of this administration has begun.  I am convinced this is not going to be unspun. And I believe Fitzgerald is not nearly done with Rove or Cheney.
*


I agree...five indictments is ok by me.
Rove still under investigation keeps the pressure on.

And this Fitzgerald guy? Aces...just solid aces...patience y'all.
hughesfan
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Oct 29 2005, 10:54 AM)
Be happy.

Libby could get 30 years. These are BIG charges There were 5 indictments against him, and maybe there are 5 more coming up for Rove that are already sealed.

Cheney is going to have to testify if there is a trial. He is in deep trouble.

By having Rove hanging like he is, they can't celebrate or do more bad stuff. Rove is now known to be MR. A.
They are on the run.

It probably stopped a new war too if we are lucky

And Boltin may be going down. His name is over everything.
*


G4A it is good that Libby could get 30 years. I have to say that was a "pick me up," for sure. But I am still hoping the threat of a 30 year sentence might make Libby drop a dime on his pals, and bring everyone completely down. I also agree with you that Rove has this as a total cloud over him, and that really is the next best thing we could hope for. I really hope Cheney does have to testify and that he continues his lies and cover ups. Then, he too will be indicted. Cheney is just such an evil person. I don't use that kind of inflammatory language--okay, sometimes I do--but really, he is just so awful!!! And he hides, hides, hides. But I do appreciate the cheerful reminder that Libby's a** is grass and that the trial may ruin the others! Thanks! :hexe:
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Oct 29 2005, 01:35 PM)
That's because they're so desperate for something to fight the Republicans with. 

I personally thought there would be more indictments.
*


Wow, some of you guys are a tough crowd to please. It seems the Dems are damned if they do and damned if they don't. blink.gif
DefeatBush
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Oct 29 2005, 11:35 AM)
That's because they're so desperate for something to fight the Republicans with. 

I personally thought there would be more indictments.
*



I agree.

I think part of it goes to a lot of irresponsible blogging.... all the scoops and predictions and a lot of wishful thinking.
graham4anything
and every single MAIN STREAM MEDIA station is talking about this.

It was on CBS news last night for 10 of the 22 minutes.

Naysayers thought it wouldn't go anywhere six months or a year ago. It was dead in the water.

And Fitsy held tight, played his cards, and dealt a winning hand yesterday. And a new leader was born.

A breathe of fresh aire.

Bottle him up and make him our next President- Bring back the Truth, Justice and American way type of thing again
DefeatBush
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Oct 29 2005, 12:33 PM)
Wow, some of you guys are a tough crowd to please. It seems the Dems are damned if they do and damned if they don't. blink.gif
*



False on two counts.

1) It's not some monolithic "the Dems" which are being criticized, but the fake-Democratic national " leadership" which by and large has abandoned the core principals of the Democratic Party and become ideologically and morally corrupt.

2) They are not being damned for "doing"-- they still arn't showing leadership (only followship); they still are embracing the whole discredited, proven-to-fail ideology of fake-DLC type "centrism".


The newly touted slogan, "America can do better" epitomizes this disastrous situation.
Magmak1
We are watching a new soap opera... "As the Screws Turn".

Sit back, get some refreshments, and stay tuned in.

The really great thing about the Libby indictments is that it shows several things:

1) The Bush world is not impenetrable.

2) There are people who will do the right thing... acting, speaking out, etc.... and that they will do it the right way... honorably, with respect for the law and the process...

3) That the Bushies will continue to act in their old ways... further distancing themselves from the true core of the American people and their Republic.

David Gergen again last night re-itereated the theme that we cannot afford to have three years of a wounded, ineffective Presidency that cannot govern, and that Bush's only real choice of value at this point is to clean house, bring in people who are respected, and turn to work again in a bipartisan way to address real issues in a meaningful way.
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(DefeatBush @ Oct 29 2005, 02:59 PM)
False on two counts.

1) It's not some monolithic "the Dems" which are being criticized, but the fake-Democratic national " leadership" which by and large has abandoned the core principals of the Democratic Party and become ideologically and morally corrupt.

2)  They are not being damned for "doing"--  they still arn't showing leadership (only followship);  they still are embracing  the whole discredited,  proven-to-fail ideology of  fake-DLC type "centrism".
The newly touted slogan,  "America can do better"  epitomizes this disastrous situation.
*


So your view is what? What should the Democratic Party be doing that in your opinion they are not doing? What should they have done yesterday that they did not do?
Pie
QUOTE
We are watching a new soap opera... "As the Screws Turn".
laugh.gif

It would seem so. I saw Dems all over the place after the indictment was handed down. Boxer, for one, was on at least two shows. Listen- they have to gain airtime, folks. Try visiting some of the individual Dem websites. wink.gif

Hughesfan: I think there is much more to come. I was very impressed with Patrick Fitzgerald.
When he began his news conference, I thought he was nervous- then I realized he was furious.
Furious with the egregious breach of ethics and law that had transpired. And clearly he is not done prosecuting.
tomhye
QUOTE(hughesfan @ Oct 29 2005, 09:09 AM)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Scooter's going down, but I would be lying if I said I was happy yesterday with the outcome of this thing. I of course wanted Rove to fall, and even Cheney, who I feel personifies evil. I wanted it badly, too. Now I find myself clinging to the wild hope that Scooter will "flip" as they say on Law & Order, and sing like a canary, bringing everyone down with him. I just wanted to see MANY aides, staffers, helpers, friends, whatever the he**, rounded up in handcuffs and carried off in a paddy-wagon! Coupled with the fact that the Meirs story is now a non-story, I was especially bummed about this far less than satisfactory outcome!  anger.gif  There was such a frenzied build up, only to have some clown named "Scooter" take the fall???  It just isn't enough...  Thanks for letting me rant!
*


Big things don't happen all at once, now this can't go away, Libby has to decide whether to accept what's effectively a life sentence and even CNN keeps repeating pieces and interviews saying it betrayed our security and our country. Do you think it stops with Libby now that the media are calling the administration traitors?
tomhye
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Oct 29 2005, 11:24 AM)
I agree...five indictments is ok by me.
Rove still under investigation keeps the pressure on.

And this Fitzgerald guy? Aces...just solid aces...patience y'all.
*


I've got to agree, and now I think opposition leadership has crossed the threshold and is approaching critical mass, especially since Kerry was such a good prosecutor and will know how to cover Fitzgerald. I know how tough it was for you waiting for this, but now the battle is soon.

In case you missed it Dobbs spent some time this week complaining about foreign agents and our government, sooner or later I think he'll nail Cheney on charges (in the public eye if not in court) that will collapse the entire house of cards. They can't fight on these two related fronts at the same time, the attack will be pressed and they will be destroyed in detail.
USA#1
This is only the beginning this reaches deep ... I think we'll all get a lot more.

Believe Me !!! cool.gif
MrJim
QUOTE
So your view is what? What should the Democratic Party be doing that in your opinion they are not doing? What should they have done yesterday that they did not do?


Standing on the rooftops with bullhorns screaming bloody murder -- that is what they should be doing.

Act like an opposition party. Watch some TV showing how British or Canadian opposition parties act -- that is how the Dems should be doing it.
Indianhead
QUOTE(tomhye @ Oct 29 2005, 01:41 PM)
Big things don't happen all at once, now this can't go away, Libby has to decide whether to accept what's effectively a life sentence and even CNN keeps repeating pieces and interviews saying it betrayed our security and our country. Do you think it stops with Libby now that the media are calling the administration traitors?
*


I mentioned patience earlier...maybe it's because I live in
the dirt of the real world. I've been putting in two hours three
days a week digging a huge pine stump (which resulted from
Katrina) with a pick-axe and shovel. I'm about 3/4 of the way.

I also have a large pan of pork ribs marinading. 24 hours before
they are ready to bake, then broil with sauce...they fall apart when
finished (3.5 hours)...make you slap yo momma.

I need not even bring up making love.

My point is: patience is a virtrue in some things.
Especially when it is required. Yes, I'd like to STOP THE WAR,
and indict Rove, Cheney and Bush...but I know it may or may not
happen. So...I'll lace up my boots...and swing that pick-axe until fatigued.
And eventually I'll drag that stump to the fire and turn it to ash.
Just like we will burn this bankrupt administration - in time - keep workin'.
rox63
QUOTE(USA#1 @ Oct 29 2005, 04:06 PM)
This is only the beginning this reaches deep ... I think we'll all get a lot more.

Believe Me !!! cool.gif
*



For those seeking more, take a gander here. First item is from Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo. Second item is a post from the person who used to run the blog The Nashua Advocate.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006889.php

QUOTE
(October 29, 2005 -- 03:03 PM EDT)

Anyone have any insight on this graf from 'Libby Charged' article in today's Times?
    Mr. Fitzgerald was spotted Friday morning outside the office of James Sharp, Mr. Bush's personal lawyer. Mr. Bush was interviewed about the case by Mr. Fitzgerald last year. It is not known what discussions, if any, were taking place between the prosecutor and Mr. Sharp. Mr. Sharp did not return a phone call, and Mr. Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, declined to comment.
Remember, in his capacity as president, Mr. Bush's lawyer is Harriet Miers, the White House Counsel. This is his personal lawyer. In fact, I believe Sharp was hired particularly for this case.

Thoughts?

-- Josh Marshall


http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2005/10/3...of-cheneys.html

QUOTE
Saturday, October 29, 2005

3 Hours Before the Indictment of Cheney's Chief of Staff, the Special Prosecutor Pays a Mysterious Visit to President Bush's Criminal Defense Attorney

Paragraph Buried in New York Times Story Suggests President Bush Is Now the Target of a Criminal Investigation

From Talking Points Memo.

Things that make you go hmm.

So, let's see here:

1. According to the block-buster New York Daily News story from last week, Rove has the power to blow the President out of the water by telling investigators that Bush knew he (Rove) was the leaker prior to speaking with federal investigators. Meaning--according to an unchallenged major-media news report--Rove can confirm that the President of the United States committed a crime. Indeed, an offense already established by the Republican majority in Congress as impeachable (cf. William Jefferson Clinton).

2. On Wednesday, Rove thought he was about to be indicted on numerous counts of perjury, obstruction, false statement, and leaking classified information. Rove was looking at (like Libby) up to 30 years in a federal prison. Which, for Rove (given his age) would be a life sentence.

3. On Wednesday and Thursday, Rove's attorney, Luskin, engaged in some desperate last-minute negotiations with Fitzgerald, whose substance and content are as yet unknown.

4. On Friday, in a stunner, Rove was not indicted.

5. Also on Friday, Fitzgerald was spotted in the law offices of President Bush's personal criminal defense attorney.

6. On Friday evening, frighteningly-obscure blogger Seth Abramson--not knowing Fact #5--speculates that Rove was not indicted because he has the goods on President Bush and may have become a cooperating individual in the Plamegate investigation.

7. If Fitzgerald had gotten the goods on President Bush on Wednesday or Thursday, courtesy of Rove, the first place he would have gone on Friday morning is: the law offices of President Bush's personal criminal defense attorney.

8. The mainstream media, apart from the New York Times (which buried this news) has reported none of this.

CONCLUSION: A Special Prosecutor from the Department of Justice is currently investigating serious criminal charges against the President of the United States. These criminal charges would substantially mirror the charges which led to the impeachment of the last President of the United States.

Is this really so far-fetched, knowing what we know now?

posted by Seth Abramson @ 1:41 PM
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(MrJim @ Oct 29 2005, 04:13 PM)
Standing on the rooftops with bullhorns screaming bloody murder -- that is what they should be doing.

Act like an opposition party.  Watch some TV showing how British or Canadian opposition parties act -- that is how the Dems should be doing it.
*


laugh.gif This sounds like the Zell Miller approach. Sorry, but I just don't agree. I know there are people, however, who would agree with you. I just don't happen to be one of them. smile.gif
Pie
QUOTE(MrJim @ Oct 29 2005, 04:13 PM)
Standing on the rooftops with bullhorns screaming bloody murder -- that is what they should be doing.

Act like an opposition party.  Watch some TV showing how British or Canadian opposition parties act -- that is how the Dems should be doing it.
*

It is difficult to act like an opposition party when we do not have a parliamentary form of government. The rules do allow the same type of interchange in Congress. And without full media support, how much can be done ?

As for standing on rooftops, well that would play right into the Repubs playbook on how 'uncivil' the Dems are, wouldn't it ?

As for the people of these United States, I am ashamed that they are not out protesting and raising some caine. The other night I attended one of the two candlelight vigils in my area- only 100 people showed up at our location. Now that makes me very angry and disappointed. So unless we are all trying to do something ourselves, then we have no right to complain.

But, hey- Fitz got Libby and he was a founding member of PNAC. A certified neo-con. That's a darn good start. Rove could fall soon - in fact, I am banking on it.
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(rox63 @ Oct 29 2005, 05:28 PM)
For those seeking more, take a gander here. First item is from Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo. Second item is a post from the person who used to run the blog The Nashua Advocate.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006889.php
http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2005/10/3...of-cheneys.html
*


Which NYT story are they referencing?
graham4anything
Case not closed on Cheney's role
By Paul Richter

Los Angeles Times


PREV | of | NEXT




STEPHEN MORTON / AP
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...akcheney29.html

WASHINGTON — Vice President Dick Cheney appears as no more than a background character in the indictment of his chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby. Yet even that secondary role raises questions about whether Cheney played any part in the alleged effort to discredit an administration critic.

Indeed, Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald said emphatically Friday that, "We make no allegation that the vice president committed any criminal act."

But as the Libby case moves forward, it is likely to focus more attention on the vice president's position as one of the most-powerful behind-the-scenes figures in government.

The five-count federal indictment says Cheney talked to Libby about the fact that Valerie Plame — the wife of Joseph Wilson, a former U.S. ambassador and administration critic — was a CIA operative. And it suggests that Cheney was close by his chief of staff as Libby took some of the actions that led to the charges of lying and obstruction of justice.

If the case goes to trial, testimony could show whether Cheney had any role in inspiring Libby's alleged decision to unmask Plame. Even if Cheney emerges blameless, the indictment deprives him of a capable and like-minded assistant who helped him carry out his foreign-policy agenda, beginning with the Iraq war.

Cheney has been "splashed by this, though not soaked," said Ross Baker, a political scientist at Rutgers University.

Cheney and Libby have had the closest kind of working relationship, based on a strong mutual admiration.

The two share hawkish foreign-policy views, a wry sense of humor, and a hard-charging style. On Friday, Cheney said he accepted the resignation with "deep regret," and called Libby "one of the most capable and talented individuals I have ever known."

The indictment says that Cheney was the third person, after an unidentified undersecretary of state and a CIA officer, to discuss with Libby the fact that Plame was a CIA officer. It is not illegal for senior officials with security clearances to talk about classified matters. What was illegal, Friday's indictment charged, was the alleged false statements Libby subsequently made about the Wilson affair in interviews with the FBI and testimony before the grand jury investigating the CIA leak case.

Libby's conversation with Cheney took place around June 12, 2003, about the time Libby and unidentified other "officials in the office of the vice president" discussed how to respond to Wilson's allegations that the administration was lying about Iraq's alleged purchase of uranium from Niger, a claim that formed part of President Bush's rationale for invading Iraq.




The indictment hints that Cheney and Libby may have discussed how to handle the Wilson problem and the media coverage of Wilson's charges. It says that on or about July 12, on the return leg of a trip to Norfolk, Va., with Cheney, Libby talked over "with other officials aboard the plane" how Libby should respond to media inquiries, including some from Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper.

The indictment did not indicate whether Cheney participated in that discussion.

Robert Boorstin, a former Clinton administration aide at the Center for American Progress, said that there is little chance these charges will hurt Cheney in his relationship with Bush. Cheney is "still the 800-pound gorilla. ... He's still going to be the last person who whispers into the president's ear."

Still, Boorstin said, it will be hard for Cheney to find a replacement as effective as Libby, and his loss will likely be a blow to morale in the office of the vice president.

The indictment comes at a time that has been difficult for Cheney, analysts noted.

He was one of the earliest and most influential advocates of an Iraq war, which continues to lose public support.

He has come under personal criticism recently as opponents of the war have been emboldened.

Last week, in an article in The New Yorker magazine, retired Gen. Brent Scowcroft, the national-security adviser to President George H.W. Bush, suggested that Cheney had changed greatly since he oversaw the 1991 Persian Gulf War as secretary of defense. "I don't know him anymore," Scowcroft said.

Meanwhile, there are some suggestions that, in his second term, the current president has been more inclined to follow the advice of his secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, and to take a less-hawkish line on issues such as the alleged North Korean and Iranian nuclear-weapons programs.
hughesfan
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Oct 29 2005, 03:14 PM)
I mentioned patience earlier...maybe it's because I live in
the dirt of the real world. I've been putting in two hours three
days a week digging a huge pine stump (which resulted from
Katrina) with a pick-axe and shovel. I'm about 3/4 of the way.

I also have a large pan of pork ribs marinading. 24 hours before
they are ready to bake, then broil with sauce...they fall apart when
finished (3.5 hours)...make you slap yo momma.

I need not even bring up making love.

My point is: patience is a virtrue in some things.
Especially when it is required. Yes, I'd like to STOP THE WAR,
and indict Rove, Cheney and Bush...but I know it may or may not
happen. So...I'll lace up my boots...and swing that pick-axe until fatigued.
And eventually I'll drag that stump to the fire and turn it to ash.
Just like we will burn this bankrupt administration - in time - keep workin'.
*


Very well put, Indianhead. I've calmed down since my earlier rant and through reading the words of wisdom on this board! Just got to keep swingin' that axe! My problem is I tire too easily to keep swingin' and just want to bulldoze things! tongue.gif And the ribs sound incredibly tasty! thumbsup.gif
Indianhead
We literally raise cane (sugarcane) down here.
It takes time, you've gotta work hard.
But after ya harvest you burn the residue.
The whole field goes up in flames...and the
ground is renewed. The cane can make
sugar, syrup or rum...take your choice.

We will fire the field...we will.

hughesfan
QUOTE(Pie @ Oct 29 2005, 03:32 PM)
As for the people of these United States, I am ashamed that they are not out protesting and raising some caine.  The other night I attended one of the two candlelight vigils in my area-  only 100 people showed up at our location.  Now that makes me very angry and disappointed.  So unless we are all trying to do something ourselves, then we have no right to complain. 
[/color]
*


You know you are absolutely right... yes2.gif
rox63
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Oct 29 2005, 05:34 PM)
Which NYT story are they referencing?
*


This one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/29/politics...?pagewanted=all

QUOTE
Cheney Aide Charged With Lying in Leak Case

By DAVID JOHNSTON and RICHARD W. STEVENSON
October 29, 2005

WASHINGTON, Oct. 28 - I. Lewis Libby Jr., Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, was indicted by a federal jury on Friday on five felony charges of lying to investigators and misleading the grand jury in the C.I.A. leak case, deepening the air of political crisis afflicting the White House while leaving many questions unanswered.

The indictment charged Mr. Libby with one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of making false statements to F.B.I. investigators and two counts of lying to the grand jury. It presented Mr. Libby as a deceptive witness who lied repeatedly and provided fictitious accounts to the grand jury about his dealings with reporters. But it did not charge him with the actual leaking of a C.I.A. officer's name.

Mr. Libby, one of the highest-ranking and most influential officials in the administration, immediately resigned and left the White House.

He said in a written statement later that he expected to be exonerated. If convicted of all the charges, he faces up to 30 years in prison and fines up to $1.25 million.

At a news conference at the Justice Department, the special counsel in the case, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, said his investigation "is not over," but he declined to say whether he might seek additional indictments.

The developments left unresolved the fate of Karl Rove, President Bush's senior adviser and deputy chief of staff, who had been warned by the prosecutor that he was in serious legal jeopardy but who was not charged in the indictment against Mr. Libby. With the term of his grand jury at an end, Mr. Fitzgerald said he could present any new evidence to an already impaneled grand jury if needed.

Mr. Rove's lawyer, Robert D. Luskin, said in a statement he was confident Mr. Fitzgerald would conclude Mr. Rove had done nothing wrong.

The charges against Mr. Libby and the prosecutor's decision not to indict Mr. Rove riveted Washington, left the White House scrambling to insulate Mr. Bush from further political damage and emboldened Democrats to press their case that the administration had been dishonest with the American people.

But rather than marking the end of the matter after 22 months of an intensive investigation that went to the heart of the White House, the indictment opened a new chapter. Mr. Libby could face a trial that seems likely to expose to the public some of the administration's innermost workings and probably require testimony by Mr. Cheney. And it only highlighted how many elements of the case remained obscured by the secrecy of the legal proceedings.

The 22-page indictment portrayed Mr. Cheney and many of his aides as personally involved in an effort to learn about Joseph C. Wilson IV, a former diplomat who emerged in the spring and early summer of 2003 as a critic of the way the administration used prewar intelligence showing that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear weapons program to justify the invasion of Iraq.

But the indictment did not charge Mr. Libby with the action that set off the prosecution nearly two years ago: the leak of the name of Mr. Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, a C.I.A. officer whose identity was publicly disclosed by Robert D. Novak, the syndicated columnist. Mr. Novak cited two senior administration officials as his sources.

Nor did the indictment name Mr. Novak's sources, beyond a reference to an "Official A" at the White House who had spoken to him in the week before Mr. Novak's column on July 14, 2003. That official is believed to be Mr. Rove. According to lawyers in the case, Mr. Rove told the grand jury of a conversation with Mr. Novak in which Mr. Novak mentioned that he had heard that Mr. Wilson's wife worked at the C.I.A. Mr. Rove told the grand jury that he had responded to Mr. Novak by saying he had heard the same thing, the lawyers said.

Mr. Fitzgerald was spotted Friday morning outside the office of James Sharp, Mr. Bush's personal lawyer. Mr. Bush was interviewed about the case by Mr. Fitzgerald last year. It is not known what discussions, if any, were taking place between the prosecutor and Mr. Sharp. Mr. Sharp did not return a phone call, and Mr. Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, declined to comment.

At his news conference, Mr. Fitzgerald did not explain his reasons for taking no action against Mr. Rove, even though the prosecutor had advised him that he might be indicted and had continued interviewing witnesses and reviewing evidence as recently as midweek.

Lawyers in the case said Mr. Fitzgerald had misgivings about whether he could prove that Mr. Rove had deliberately sought to mislead investigators about his conversation with a reporter. Allies of Mr. Bush said the expectation within the White House was that Mr. Rove would not be charged although he had received no official word of being cleared.

Hours after the indictment was filed and made public at the Federal District Court in Washington, Mr. Bush appeared on the South Lawn of the White House to praise Mr. Libby for working "tirelessly on behalf of the American people" and to say that while he and his administration were "saddened" by the news, they would "remain wholly focused on the many issues and opportunities facing this country."

Mr. Cheney, who was in Georgia, issued a statement calling Mr. Libby "one of the most capable and talented individuals I have ever known."

According to the indictment, Mr. Cheney's office was portrayed as the hub of a concerted effort to gather information about Mr. Wilson. The indictment said that Mr. Cheney told Mr. Libby several weeks before the Novak column ran that Mr. Wilson's wife worked in the CIA's counterproliferation division, part of the intelligence agency's clandestine wing. That assertion by the prosecutor suggested that Mr. Cheney would be a likely witness in the trial and raised questions about the vice president's degree of involvement in dealing with Mr. Wilson and his criticisms.

Mr. Cheney's office declined to comment on whether the vice president would agree to testify, referring questions on the issue to Mr. Cheney's personal lawyer, Terrence O'Donnell. Mr. O'Donnell did not return a telephone call.

Mr. Libby's case has been assigned to Judge Reggie B. Walton of Federal District Court in Washington. No date has been set for the arraignment or the start of a trial.

Mr. Libby's lawyer, Joseph A. Tate, said in statement that Mr. Libby was innocent and that his case would be "vigorously" defended. The lawyer said Mr. Libby had cooperated with the prosecutor and had testified "to the best of his honest recollection on all occasions."

Mr. Tate said Mr. Libby had produced many documents and had signed waivers to allow reporters to testify about their confidential conversations with him.

"We are quite distressed that the special counsel has now sought to pursue alleged inconsistencies in Mr. Libby's recollections and those of others and to charge such inconsistencies as false statements," Mr. Tate said.

The indictment etched a starkly different portrait of an official who repeatedly deceived authorities about his actions. It accused Mr. Libby of one overall count of obstruction of justice for misleading the grand jury about the circumstances under which he learned about Ms. Wilson's work at the C.I.A. and about his conversations with journalists.

The indictment charged Mr. Libby with two counts of making false statements on each of the two occasions in which he was interviewed by F.B.I. agents in October and November 2003. In addition, the indictment charged him with two counts of perjury for lying in two appearances before the grand jury in March 2004.

"We brought those cases because we realized that the truth is the engine of our judicial system," Mr. Fitzgerald said, adding later, "We didn't get the straight story, and we had to - had to - act."

Moreover, as Mr. Libby was telling the grand jury that he heard about Ms. Wilson from reporters, the indictment said, prosecutors were compiling evidence that it was Mr. Libby who passed on information to two reporters, Matthew Cooper of Time magazine and Judith Miller of The New York Times. Mr. Cooper and Ms. Miller declined to comment.

In contrast to Mr. Libby's testimony to the grand jury that he learned of Ms. Wilson from journalists, the indictment presented evidence that showed Mr. Libby engaged in an effort - which began earlier and was more aggressive and broader than was previously known - to collect information about Mr. Wilson from the State Department and the C.I.A.

It was this effort, not his conversations with reporters, that allegedly led Mr. Libby to learn that Mr. Wilson was married to a C.I.A. employee and to the information that she may have had a role in sending her husband to Africa. The indictment alleged that:

¶On May 29, 2003, Mr. Libby asked an undersecretary of state, believed to be Marc Grossman, the under secretary for political affairs, for information about Mr. Wilson's 2002 trip to Niger - although at that time Mr. Libby did not know Mr. Wilson's name. In response, Mr. Grossman provided Mr. Libby with oral reports that identified Mr. Wilson and directed the Bureau of Intelligence and Research at the State Department to prepare a written report.

¶On June 9, 2003, a number of classified documents were faxed from the C.I.A. to the vice president's office, addressed to the attention of Mr. Libby and another unidentified official. The documents discussed Mr. Wilson and his trip, but did not mention him by name.

¶June 11, Mr. Libby was told by Mr. Grossman that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for the C.I.A. and that State Department officials were saying that she was involved in sending him on the trip.

¶On June 11, 2003, Mr. Libby was told by an unidentified senior C.I.A. officer that Ms. Wilson was employed at the C.I.A. and was behind Mr. Wilson's trip to Africa.

¶On June 12, 2003, Mr. Libby was told by Mr. Cheney that Ms. Wilson worked in the C.I.A. counterproliferation division, most of whose employees work under covert or classified status. Mr. Cheney's information was understood to have come from the C.I.A. Lawyers involved in the case have said that Mr. Libby's notes of the meeting indicated that Mr. Cheney's information came from George J. Tenet, then the direction of central intelligence. Mr. Tenet has declined to comment.

On June 23, 2003, the indictment said, Mr. Libby met with Ms. Miller and told her that Mr. Wilson's wife might work at a bureau of the C.I.A.

Mr. Wilson went public with his criticism of the administration on July 6, 2003, when he published an Op-Ed article in The New York Times in which he said that he went to Africa at the request of the C.I.A. after the vice president's office raised questions about an intelligence report about a possible effort by Iraq to buy uranium ore from Niger. Mr. Wilson concluded such a deal was "highly doubtful."

In the days that followed, Mr. Libby took several crucial steps, according to the indictment. On July 7, 2003, he had lunch with Ari Fleischer, the White House press secretary, telling him that Ms. Wilson worked at the C.I.A. and that the information was not widely known. Mr. Fleischer's lawyer, Robert Barnett, said he would not comment because he could be called as a witness in the case.

Later, Mr. Libby began a series of meetings with reporters. He met with Ms. Miller of The Times again on July 8, 2003, and told her "of his belief that Wilson's wife worked at the C.I.A.," the indictment said. On July 10, 2003, he spoke with Tim Russert, NBC's Washington bureau chief, to complain about a news report he had seen, but the Wilsons, according to the indictment, did not come up.

But Mr. Libby told F.B.I. agents and the grand jury a much different account that the indictment said was false.

In one grand jury appearance, according to the indictment, Mr. Libby said, "Mr. Russert said to me, 'Did you know that Ambassador Wilson's wife, or his wife, works at the C.I.A.?' And I said, 'No, I don't know that.' And then he said, 'Yeah all the reporters know it.' And I said again, 'I don't know that.' "

-------
Eric Lichtblau, John Files, Holli Chmela and Douglas Jehl contributed reporting for this article.
Pie
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Oct 29 2005, 05:42 PM)
We literally raise cane (sugarcane) down here.
It takes time, you've gotta work hard.
But after ya harvest you burn the residue.
The whole field goes up in flames...and the
ground is renewed. The cane can make
sugar, syrup or rum...take your choice.

We will fire the field...we will.


*

Excellent, Indianhead. yes2.gif Sweet reply.
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(rox63 @ Oct 29 2005, 05:50 PM)


Thanks Rox. clap.gif The NYT has written so many good stories here lately that I didn't want to have to go through all of them to find it. biggrin.gif
rox63
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Oct 29 2005, 05:52 PM)
Thanks Rox.  clap.gif The NYT has written so many good stories here lately that I didn't want to have to go through all of them to find it. biggrin.gif
*


Maybe they are trying to atone for Judy Miller? dontknow.gif
Indianhead
Hughesfan:

The ribs will be served with garlic mashed potatos,
carrots and green beans...my parents will share.

My dad will probably have a story about his B-27 bomber
in WWII, my mom a story about some embarrassing
incident in my youth. They are hardcore Democrats...
so we'll probably talk about The Scooter too. dancing.gif

In their late 70s they remember The Great Depression
and have schooled me in patience. I'm soooo blessed. smile.gif
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(rox63 @ Oct 29 2005, 05:28 PM)
For those seeking more, take a gander here. First item is from Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo. Second item is a post from the person who used to run the blog The Nashua Advocate.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/006889.php
http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2005/10/3...of-cheneys.html
*


Perhaps instead of indications that the President is in trouble he met with Bush's lawyer because Bush & Rove are cooperating in selling out Cheney and the neocons?
rox63
Good related post on FireDogLake. I'm not going to put the text here, because I'm feeling too lazy to edit out the cuss words. But it's worth reading. It talks somewhat about how Fitz has put the squeeze on people he's indicted in other cases, and how they eventually rat out the big fish, rather than face spending the rest of their lives in prison.

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/pa...radler-and.html

Or for those who prefer to copy and paste the link instead of clicking on it, use this:
firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/patrick-fitzgerald-david-radler-and.html
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(rox63 @ Oct 29 2005, 06:00 PM)
Good related post on FireDogLake. I'm not going to put the text here, because I'm feeling too lazy to edit out the cuss words. But it's worth reading. It talks somewhat about how Fitz has put the squeeze on people he's indicted in other cases, and how they eventually rat out the big fish, rather than face spending the rest of their lives in prison.

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/pa...radler-and.html

Or for those who prefer to copy and paste the link instead of clicking on it, use this:
firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/patrick-fitzgerald-david-radler-and.html
*


Thanks Rox63.

I don't prefer it but because of my computer problems I appreciate it. biggrin.gif
hughesfan
QUOTE(rox63 @ Oct 29 2005, 04:00 PM)
Good related post on FireDogLake. I'm not going to put the text here, because I'm feeling too lazy to edit out the cuss words. But it's worth reading. It talks somewhat about how Fitz has put the squeeze on people he's indicted in other cases, and how they eventually rat out the big fish, rather than face spending the rest of their lives in prison.

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/pa...radler-and.html

Or for those who prefer to copy and paste the link instead of clicking on it, use this:
firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/patrick-fitzgerald-david-radler-and.html
*



Fun reading! Thanks! biggrin.gif
graham4anything
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...akcheney29.html


3 Hours Before the Indictment of Cheney's Chief of Staff, the Special Prosecutor Pays a Mysterious Visit to President Bush's Criminal Defense Attorney

Paragraph Buried in New York Times Story Suggests President Bush Is Now the Target of a Criminal Investigation

From Talking Points Memo.

Things that make you go hmm.

So, let's see here:

1. According to the block-buster New York Daily News story from last week, Rove has the power to blow the President out of the water by telling investigators that Bush knew he (Rove) was the leaker prior to speaking with federal investigators. Meaning--according to an unchallenged major-media news report--Rove can confirm that the President of the United States committed two crimes: obstruction of justice and making false statements to federal investigators. Indeed, these two offenses have already been effectively established by the Republican majority in Congress as impeachable offenses (cf. William Jefferson Clinton).

2. On Wednesday, Rove thought he was about to be indicted on numerous counts of perjury, obstruction, false statement, and leaking classified information. Rove was looking at (like Libby) up to 30 years in a federal prison. Which, for Rove (given his age) would be a life sentence. Sure, he'd be unlikely to do anything like that much time, but everyone involved in the Plamegate investigation seems to be talking like these are eminently jailable offenses--even for those (like Rove and Libby) with no prior criminal record.

3. On Wednesday and Thursday, Rove's attorney, Luskin, engaged in some desperate last-minute negotiations with Fitzgerald, whose substance and content are as yet unknown.

4. On Friday, in a stunner, Rove was not indicted. No one, including Fitzgerald, is willing or able to adequately explain why.

5. Also on Friday, Fitzgerald was spotted in the law offices of President Bush's personal criminal defense attorney.

6. If Fitzgerald had gotten the goods on President Bush on Wednesday or Thursday, courtesy of Rove--and thereby saving Rove, for the moment, a Friday indictment--the first place he would have gone on Friday morning is: the law offices of President Bush's personal criminal defense attorney.

7. The mainstream media, apart from the New York Times (which buried this news in its Saturday article) has reported none of this.

CONCLUSION: A Special Prosecutor from the Department of Justice is currently investigating serious criminal charges against the President of the United States. These criminal charges would substantially mirror the charges which led to the impeachment of the last President of the United States.

Is this really so far-fetched, knowing what we know now?

Or, better yet, I'll put it this way: is there a more plausible scenario anyone can provide for why the Special Prosecutor would be in Attorney Sharp's offices on Friday morning, when Bush's only interview with Plamegate investigators now lies more than a year in the past--and Fitzgerald has no reason on earth to (as I'm sure someone somewhere will claim) tell Sharp in person that Bush is not a target? No: he would have done that by letter; that doesn't require an in-person visit.

Maybe it's just the criminal defense attorney in me talking.
graham4anything
well-here it is, with I hope all the curse words *** out
http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2005/10/pa...radler-and.html

Aug 19, 2005 (AXcess News) Chicago - F. David Radler, the ex-publisher of the Chicago Sun-Times, was charged with criminal fraud by federal prosecutors for his role in stealing $32 million from the paper's parent company, Hollinger International.

Patrick Fitzgerald acquitted himself superbly today. A country weaned on the corrupt, leering hackery of Ken Starr -- who squandered millions of taxpayer dollars in a partisan witch-hunt -- got to watch as a guy with an inner core of decency got up and frankly spoke about his investigation with professionalism and honesty. We got to be proud of the Justice Department again. We got to enjoy a moment of confidence that if there is a bottom to be gotten to in all of this there is a man in charge who will honorably and doggedly find it.

But hopes were set high that an array of GOP scalps would be waving in the wind by this time today, and that was not the case. Did we pin them unrealistically on a man and a situation to whom they did not rightfully belong? Perhaps.

But perhaps the only thing in the situation that is wonting is time.

If I were Karl Rove right now, I'd be kicking myself around the room. The thing that got him into this mess in the first place is spinning "expletive deleted" he didn't need to spin, and it looks like he's done it once again.

Fitzgerald held his cards close today, and gave no indication that Rove was on the hook for anything, giving pause to many who were hoping that he would give some signal that Turdy's goose was yet to be cooked. But on Thursday evening, Rove's people were spinning furiously to everyone who would sit still -- NYT, WSJ, AP -- telling them that Rove was not going to be indicted today, but his attorneys had been told that he was "still under investigation."

Wow. If they'd just shut up, all the talking heads would be chattering today about how Rove was in the clear. Flip on the TV and listen for a while, and hear how even partisan wonks like Andrea Mitchell and Bob Woodward -- who are certainly parroting every other talking point Unka Karl sent them out with today -- are still not saying that Rove is in the clear. They don't know what the f**k to say. The queen is dead and the Borgs are are wandering around aimlessly bashing into one another.

So what are we to think of all of this? Well, consider:

1. Fitzgerald gave nothing away today. Or, damn near nothing. However he let it be known that he could not investigate the underlying claims of violations of the Identities Protection Act because another crime was being committed that prevented him from doing so, namely the crime Libby stands accused of.

2. He's not done. As he said, "We recognize that we want to get this thing done. I will not end the investigation until I can look anyone in the eye and tell them that we have carried out our responsibility sufficiently to be sure that we've done what we could to make intelligent decisions about when to end the investigation.

3. In the Libby indictment, most individuals who are cooperating witnesses are indicated by their job title -- Assistant to the Vice President for Public Affairs, Under Secretary of State, White House Press Secretary (guess that explains where Ari Fleischer's been in all this, he's a cooperating witness). The exception is the anonymous "Official A," who purportedly spoke with Robert Novak in the week prior to July 11, 2003 (p. 8, pp 21). That's a distinction you would make if you were still investigating someone and you did not want to prejudice that investigation.

4. When pressed about whether members of the press (read: Novakula) could not discuss their dealings with the grand jury openly, Fitzgerald said he had requested that they remain circumspect so as not to compromise the investigation. But when asked later whether this now meant that they were released from this obligation, it was the only time I saw Fitzgerald waffle during the press conference -- he wasn't prepared for that one, and he said he couldn't answer. If the investigation were really over, then why not? Given the statements he made regarding the importance of the press, wouldn't he want to free everyone up as soon as possible?

5. As Josh Marshall and Billmon have noted, it was indicated both in the indictments and in Fitzgerald's press conference that there might have been enough evidence to go after Libby for Identities Protection. Why didn't he? Especially since the one time Fitzgerald stepped beyond his role as Special Counsel to editorialize was when he underscored the damage that had been done to the intelligence community by the outing of Plame. This guy probably hugs the Patriot Act in his sleep. He is a total law'n'order true believer. He would not pull his punches on that front, and has in the past been extremely aggressive -- some would say draconian -- in protecting what he saw as threats to the national security.

Now we enter the realm of -- admittedly -- pure speculation. But Fitzgerald has Libby on 30 years worth of counts, and he's got him cold. No wiggle room. Libby may not do 30 years, but he ain't doing 6 months. He is F-****-D ****** It was the Veep's boon companion himself, David Gergen, who said on MSNBC today that this is squeeze time. It really matters little to a man of 55 whether he is looking at 30 years or 60 -- he'd rather have 60 thrown at him if some of them were shaky and he thought he could use the wobbly ones to get out of the rest.

There is no wobble in the indictments handed down today. It's pretty clear. Libby can deal or swing.

Which brings us to David Radler. Who is David Radler? David Radler was the #2 man at Hollinger International. The day after he was indicted by the US Attorney for the State of Illinois Patrick J. Fitzgerald for looting money from the stockholders of Hollinger, he announced he'd rather "cooperate with investigators" (read: rat out his boss, Conrad Black) than spend the rest of his life perfecting the ultimate starch job in the prison laundry. Radler decided he would take Door #2 and do twenty-nine unpleasant months and pay a fine when the prospect of life in prison became a reality.

That's just the way Patrick Fitzgerald works. If the Hollinger case, and the Ryan case, and the Daley Case, and the Al Quaeda case and the Gambino case are any indication, Fitzgerald will now use what he's got to get more.

So if I was Big Dick Cheney, I wouldn't be sleeping very easy tonight. At the very best, his chief aide was just popped for lying to protect him. Do you think Andrea Mitchell could spare some TV time from mewling over what a loss it will be not to have Scooter in the Hamptons during the summer to discuss the serious implications of the Vice President's role in this highly dubious affair? Well probably not, but if there's a God in his heaven tonight the tightly-stretched skin of her face will soon snap and whiplash her into inactivity.

Do not make this mistake of thinking a presidential pardon will be a panacea for those involved. Fitzgerald's honorable and straighforward presentation today made it nigh impossible for the Rovians to fall back on their old tricks and launch a smear campaign -- Matthews damn near crowned him Pope this afternoon, and any attempt at a pardon will just make Bush look like an impeachment-worthy crook out to thwart the efforts of an honest public servant. Every solution they can come up with seems to beget more problems.

There is no joy in Bushville tonight.
NiteOwl
For those feeling let down...

The fat lady hasn't even gotten warmed up yet.



The Bush agenda is DOA... Bush is effectively castrated. Bush's approval rating is in the crapper with little prospect of improving significantly for the rest of his term. The GOP and the RW are demoralized and de-energized at this point (great for '06). The spectre of further investigations and inquiry hang over the WH. The press is starting to do its job again. The whole Iraq war is cast in suspicion in the eyes of most Americans... people are waking up. The corruption of the GOP and BushCo is becoming very evident... which won't be helpful in the future. GOP ideals are being questioned by many... and their "big business" favortism is starting to show how detrimental to the good of the Americans their philosophy truly is. The myth of Homeland Security has been laid bare.

And... the whole Neo-con agenda is derailed at present. Bush or anyone else even remotely suggesting further military intervention around the world will come under tremendous scrutiny. (I think it will be safe to say, some day soon, that Bush and Cheney's aggressiveness in pushing us to war with Iraq effectively killed the neo-con movement).

So... celebrate. Each straw is one step closer to breaking the Bush/GOP camel's back... and this has been a week of many straws. I'll take every one we get. Little victories. thumbsup.gif
Indianhead
The Bush agenda is DOA...
Wow! Succinct!

Wisdom of an owl. notworthy.gif
EvelyninTexas
I like this theory. Is anybody besides the NYT noting Fitz's visit to the prez's legal eagle? Could itjust have had something to do with Libby's indictment?


QUOTE(graham4anything @ Oct 29 2005, 05:17 PM)
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...akcheney29.html
3 Hours Before the Indictment of Cheney's Chief of Staff, the Special Prosecutor Pays a Mysterious Visit to President Bush's Criminal Defense Attorney

Paragraph Buried in New York Times Story Suggests President Bush Is Now the Target of a Criminal Investigation

From Talking Points Memo.

Things that make you go hmm.

So, let's see here:

1. According to the block-buster New York Daily News story from last week, Rove has the power to blow the President out of the water by telling investigators that Bush knew he (Rove) was the leaker prior to speaking with federal investigators. Meaning--according to an unchallenged major-media news report--Rove can confirm that the President of the United States committed two crimes: obstruction of justice and making false statements to federal investigators. Indeed, these two offenses have already been effectively established by the Republican majority in Congress as impeachable offenses (cf. William Jefferson Clinton).

2. On Wednesday, Rove thought he was about to be indicted on numerous counts of perjury, obstruction, false statement, and leaking classified information. Rove was looking at (like Libby) up to 30 years in a federal prison. Which, for Rove (given his age) would be a life sentence. Sure, he'd be unlikely to do anything like that much time, but everyone involved in the Plamegate investigation seems to be talking like these are eminently jailable offenses--even for those (like Rove and Libby) with no prior criminal record.

3. On Wednesday and Thursday, Rove's attorney, Luskin, engaged in some desperate last-minute negotiations with Fitzgerald, whose substance and content are as yet unknown.

4. On Friday, in a stunner, Rove was not indicted. No one, including Fitzgerald, is willing or able to adequately explain why.

5. Also on Friday, Fitzgerald was spotted in the law offices of President Bush's personal criminal defense attorney.

6. If Fitzgerald had gotten the goods on President Bush on Wednesday or Thursday, courtesy of Rove--and thereby saving Rove, for the moment, a Friday indictment--the first place he would have gone on Friday morning is: the law offices of President Bush's personal criminal defense attorney.

7. The mainstream media, apart from the New York Times (which buried this news in its Saturday article) has reported none of this.

CONCLUSION: A Special Prosecutor from the Department of Justice is currently investigating serious criminal charges against the President of the United States. These criminal charges would substantially mirror the charges which led to the impeachment of the last President of the United States.

Is this really so far-fetched, knowing what we know now?

Or, better yet, I'll put it this way: is there a more plausible scenario anyone can provide for why the Special Prosecutor would be in Attorney Sharp's offices on Friday morning, when Bush's only interview with Plamegate investigators now lies more than a year in the past--and Fitzgerald has no reason on earth to (as I'm sure someone somewhere will claim) tell Sharp in person that Bush is not a target? No: he would have done that by letter; that doesn't require an in-person visit.

Maybe it's just the criminal defense attorney in me talking.
*
Dyan
Yeah, I'll admit it. I feel like the eagerly expected Christmas present turned out to be ............. a rain check for the next time the toy is in stock.

Graham said (in another thread where I expressed this) that I had fallen for the Republican spin, but that's not it. Just the opposite, I fear that I and others fell for the hopeful liberal spin. I KNEW it realistically would be pretty much what we got and what we got is pretty darned good. And yet, I let myself dream and believe that huge and dramatic things were right around the corner.

It's often joked that every woman secretly wishes for a white knight to wisk her away, so maybe this is similar. I wanted something HUGE. A dramatic disclosure that would shake our government and reveal these thugs for exactly what they were. Instead, I keep going back to the real world where what we got was one indictment.
winston smith
QUOTE(hughesfan @ Oct 29 2005, 08:09 AM)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Scooter's going down, but I would be lying if I said I was happy yesterday with the outcome of this thing. I of course wanted Rove to fall, and even Cheney, who I feel personifies evil. I wanted it badly, too. Now I find myself clinging to the wild hope that Scooter will "flip" as they say on Law & Order, and sing like a canary, bringing everyone down with him. I just wanted to see MANY aides, staffers, helpers, friends, whatever the he**, rounded up in handcuffs and carried off in a paddy-wagon! Coupled with the fact that the Meirs story is now a non-story, I was especially bummed about this far less than satisfactory outcome!  anger.gif  There was such a frenzied build up, only to have some clown named "Scooter" take the fall???  It just isn't enough...  Thanks for letting me rant!
*

Yes, I felt let down; I really wanted Rove to frogmarch. He still might. The investigation is continuing on and Fitz has the forged Niger docs, so the war is going on trial with Libby. Unless Scooter pleads out- which he sez he won't- this is a trial that will last well into next November. It will be on the news every day, and no one will be able to stop it. laugh.gif

Until Fitz tells Rove he is no longer a target of the investigation, Turdblossom is going to be preoccupied with saving his own ass; covering Chimp's miscues will be down on the list somewhere below making sure the bathrooms have toilet paper.

Additionally, we know Shrub in inept. Without Rove's full attention, he's gonna continue to screw up time after time, and every time he does, our newly emboldened press will be over him like flies on a turd.

Yeah, I'd love to have Rove in an orange jumpsuit, but this is OK for now. wink.gif
Dyan
QUOTE(MrJim @ Oct 29 2005, 03:13 PM)
Standing on the rooftops with bullhorns screaming bloody murder -- that is what they should be doing.

Act like an opposition party.  Watch some TV showing how British or Canadian opposition parties act -- that is how the Dems should be doing it.
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That is EXACTLY what they should be doing. They need to learn how an opposition party acts by watching those that do it best.

Btw, in my opinion, excusing their silence by saying that it happened on Friday when they were all going home just doesn't fly. Everyone in the country KNEW it was coming. We waited and watched every day this week. And when the rumors flew like mad Thursday night, we knew something had to be announced on Friday. So this wasn't exactly an unexpected event. And you know what???? If the shoe had been on the other foot and if these had been Democrats indicted, Rove would have been ready and active one minute after the first sentence left Fitzgerald's mouth. AS SOON AS he said 'Scooter Libby' and indicted in the same sentence, Rove would have left a staffer to watch the rest of the speech and went into high gear.

When people ask what I want from Democrats, THAT'S WHAT I WANT. Political leaders who have plans and who strikes when the iron is hot. Okay, something might happen on the Democratic side Monday or next week. If they do, then I'll apologize for my moment of doubt.
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