Theologian Says Controlled Demolition of WTC Is Now a Fact, Not a Theory

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20051026163300114

On Oct. 15th and 16th, New Yorkers filled two venues to hear the prominent theologian and author of two books on 9/11 give a presentation entitled "The Destruction of the Trade Towers: A Christian Theologian Speaks Out." Dr. Griffin has continued to blaze a trail of courage, leading where most media and elected officials have feared to tread. His presentation went straight to the core of one of the most powerful indictments of the official story, the collapse of the towers and WTC 7.

Dr. Griffin included excerpts from the firemen's tapes which were recently released as a result of a prolonged court battle led by victim's families represented by attorney Norman Siegel and reported in the NY Times. He also included statements by many witnesses. These sources gave ample testimony giving evidence of explosions going off in the buildings. A 12 minute film was shown for the audiences, who saw for themselves the undeniable evidence for controlled demolition.

Dr. Griffin listed ten characteristics of the collapses which all indicate that the buildings did not fall due to being struck by planes or the ensuing fires. He explained the buildings fell suddenly without any indication of collapse. They fell straight down, into or at least close to their own footprints (rather than falling over), and at virtually free-fall speed, meeting virtually no resistance as they fell--a physical impossibility unless all vertical support was being progressively removed by explosives severing the core columns. The towers were built to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 and 160 mile per hour winds, and nothing about the plane crashes or ensuing fires gave any indication of causing the kind of damage that would be necessary to trigger even a partial or progressive collapse, much less the shredding of the buildings into dust and fragments that could drop at free-fall speed. The massive core columns--the most significant structural feature of the buildings, whose very existence is denied in the official 9/11 Commission Report, were largely severed into sections short enough to be placed on trucks used to remove them quickly before a real investigation could transpire. There was a volcanic-like dust cloud from the concrete being pulverized, and no physical mechanism other than explosives can begin to explain how so much of the buildings' concrete was rendered into extremely fine dust. The debris was ejected horizontally several hundred feet in huge fan shaped plumes stretching in all directions.

These are all facts that have been avoided by mainstream and even most of the alternative media. Again, these are characteristics of the kind of controlled demolitions that news people and firefighters were describing on the morning of 9/11. Those multiple first-person descriptions of controlled demolition were hidden away for almost four years by the City of New York until a lawsuit finally forced the city to release them. Dr. Griffin's study of these accounts has led him beyond his earlier questioning of the official story of the collapses, to his above-quoted conclusion: The destruction of the three WTC buildings with explosives by US government terrorists is no longer a hypothesis, but a fact that has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's important to note that Dr. Griffin is one of many prominent intellectuals--including the likes of Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Peter Dale Scott, Richard Falk, Paul Craig Roberts, Morgan Reynolds and Peter Phillips, who have seen through the major discrepancies of the official explanation of 9/11 and have risen to challenge it. These brave individuals represent the tip of an ever-growing iceberg of discreet 9/11 skeptics. Indeed, 9/11 skepticism appears to be almost universal among intellectuals who have examined the evidence, since there has not yet been a single serious attempt to refute the case developed by Dr. Griffin and such like-minded thinkers as Nafeez Ahmed and Mike Ruppert. As for the general public, polls have shown that a strong majority of Canadians (63%, Toronto Star, May '04) and half of New Yorkers (Zogby, August 2004) agree that top US leaders conspired to murder nearly 3,000 Americans on 9/11/01.

How, then, can the mainstream US media continue to ignore the story of the century? Perhaps the best answer was given by Dr. Griffin himself in the conclusion of his talk, and is worth quoting at length:

"The evidence for this conclusion (that 9/11 was an inside job) has thus far been largely ignored by the mainstream press, perhaps under the guise of obeying President Bush's advice not to tolerate "outrageous conspiracy theories." We have seen, however, that it is the Bush administration's conspiracy theory that is the outrageous one, because it is violently contradicted by numerous facts, including some basic laws of physics.

"There is, of course, another reason why the mainstream press has not pointed out these contradictions. As a recent letter to the Los Angeles Times said:

”’The number of contradictions in the official version of . . . 9/11 is so overwhelming that . . . it simply cannot be believed. Yet . . . the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of 'X-Files' proportions and insidiousness.'

"The implications are indeed disturbing. Many people who know or at least suspect the truth about 9/11 probably believe that revealing it would be so disturbing to the American psyche, the American form of government, and global stability that it is better to pretend to believe the official version. I would suggest, however, that any merit this argument may have had earlier has been overcome by more recent events and realizations. Far more devastating to the American psyche, the American form of government, and the world as a whole will be the continued rule of those who brought us 9/11, because the values reflected in that horrendous event have been reflected in the Bush administration's lies to justify the attack on Iraq, its disregard for environmental science and the Bill of Rights, its criminal negligence both before and after Katrina, and now its apparent plan not only to weaponize space but also to authorize the use of nuclear weapons in a preemptive strike.

"In light of this situation and the facts discussed in this lecture---as well as dozens more problems in the official account of 9/11 discussed elsewhere---I call on the New York Times to take the lead in finally exposing to the American people and the world the truth about 9/11. Taking the lead on such a story will, of course, involve enormous risks. But if there is any news organization with the power, the prestige, and the credibility to break this story, it is the Times. It performed yeoman service in getting the 9/11 oral histories released. But now the welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed. I am calling on the Times to rise to the occasion."

Icelandic Green-Left Party Demands International Inquiry on 9/11

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20051024011250549

Hmmm... where have I heard this before?

Certainly not in any of the mainstream media....

must have had a bad dream one night...

while wearing my tin-foil nightcap....

or maybe I saw the movie.

I like that this says

PRESIDENT'S BUSH VERSION OF EVENTS THAT DAY ARE A CONSPIRACY THEORY.

It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for 19 bumbling idiots to bring down the WTC with the wind there, with no possible pre-knowledge of the weather that day, and with the knowledge that a 1/6 degree different in the plane would have caused it to land harmlesslly in the river with no buildings down

It's impossible to drive coast to coast and arrive at another house, less than a 1% variation could put you in the ocean!

This is also reported on thetruthseeker.co.uk. I put up a post in the People of Faith forum.
There is also concern that Mohammad Atta was a double agent working for the USA which has something to do with Col Anthony Schaffer losing his security clearance (for getting to close to the truth). I believe something to do with ABLE DANGER not being given to the 911 Commission, because they did not want to hear about it, and rebuffed Col Schaffers attempts to contact them. And also there were documents destroyed. Some of this connects to the British Member of Parliament (Michael Meacher) article he wrote in the Guardian. Rep Curt Weldon seems to know all about all of this. Hope this helps not hinders you.

tomhye-all kidding aside, I have come to learn, when I need on this board to see a serious answer, about serious things, you are the person who gives those answers and I trust your answers.

And, you are also the funniest when you give a humorous answer. Also the most wry.!


Maybe with these threads it is possible some is/ some isn't. We probably will never know the truth.

Maybe indeed I am wrong about 41, and if so, you will be the one to convince me
that maybe he wasn't in the loop after all,
but I think W and Cheney and those people are another story altogether, and nothing they do would surprise me in the least. A liar once is a liar always.

but I have come to appreciate you and your views tomhye. I mean that.

THANK YOU! I wasn't sure if you'd get a grin out of it or not.

When it comes to the topic of this thread my opinions aren't based on my opinion of anyone and they certainly aren't based on trusting this administration (I know for a fact that even most people who hate WimpChimp and believe in conspiracies have no idea of the depth of the criminality of him and his puppetmasters). Hitting the buildings is explainable, hitting just right was largely luck (as evidenced by bin Laden being surprised, yet having a construction background he didn't question the cause of the collapse). Look at any eyewitness situation, there are always wide differences in the accounts, that doesn't mean anything. The truth is emotionally unsettling, the terrorists got damned lucky.

This doesn't mean that I don't think the pilot of the second jet to hit the WTC wasn't far more experienced than we were told, but the simpler and far more likely explanation is the cover story is a diplomatic necessity. The REAL conspiracies involved are tangental, and they'll seal the fate of virtually every member of the administration. Cheney was sold out to a foreign power whose moles screwed up translations that would have given us a chance at stopping the attack, after they were exposed (and their handler deported because he had known terrorist ties) they were left in place and the agent who exposed them was punished. Two of the countries Cheney made a pipeline deal with are KNOWN to have provided refuge for over 1,000 al qaeda members yet they get nearly everything they ask for.

No strange conspiracy, just the results of having an administration run by people willing to sell their loyalty and betray our country.

Yes, tomhye, your wit is one of the reasons I keep reading on this board. I do think you are spot on about people not understanding the depth of criminality involved in this administration. It is, quite literally, a gang of mobsters who think themselves not just above, but not beholden to the laws of man. (And of God, I might add, for all their posturing.)

Treason.

Well, here we go again
How many of the doubters here have actually went to this site and got the free video?
http://www.reopen911.org/
It's Free! Free! Free!
What could it hurt to get it and watch it ? There are some very credible people involved with this project. And it's free.
You doubters should really get this dvd and watch it before you form an opinion. It uses a lot of footage from MSM reporters. One segment actually uses some Fox footage at the pentagon with the reporter saying no plane hit the pentagon. Why would that reporter repeatedly say that ?
Seriously folks ! go to the website and order the dvd and then come back and discuss this topic. There are a lot of people here who think they can de-bunk the controlled demolition theory. I say Prove it ! Because if you can they will give you a million dollars. No Joke !

Eyewitness testimony is generally badly flawed as you've been told, if you bothered checking that out you'd know it's a well proven fact. Yeah, they'll pay a million dollars if you can get them to admit they're talking sh*t, that's what they mean by debunked, not merely prove that it's both irrational and impossible.

Whats irrational is how a building made of steel and concrete can free fall in it's footprint in 8 seconds. It defies the laws of physics.

Really, what laws of physics does it violate, the one that says everything falls sideways or the one that says buildings fall faster than other objects?

The formula for distance and time is:

s=½at²

Where:

s = distance in feet
a = gravitational constant: 32 ft/sec²
t = time in seconds.

The videos and seismic records show that the time of one collapse was approximately 8.5 seconds. Therefore:

s = ½ * 32 * 8.5²
s = 1156 feet

However, WTC 1 (the north tower) had a roof height of 1,368 feet. WTC 2 (the south tower) was nearly as tall, with a roof height of 1,362 feet. Each floor was therefore approximately 12.5 feet. Since the tower collapses began below that, approximately 10 floors, the collapse should have taken approximately:

1,368 - 125 = 1,243 or approximately 1250 Feet

1250 feet = ½ * 32 * 8.8² seconds

It is therefore proven that the towers collapsed at very close to free fall speed, perhaps faster since there is air resistance to consider. It is impossible for the floors to have been crushed and fall faster than free fall or slightly slower.

For instance, there were 110 stories and the collapse appears to begin at the 100th floor. If it had only taken 1 second per floor, that would have been 100 seconds. To be under .1 second total time for the 100 floors, each floor would have to have been totally crushed in under 0.001 seconds. Impossible without explosives.

Since it is alleged that the floors pancaked down on each other crushing each floor as it went, entrants' must prove explosives were not used with a time line with the energy needed, mass affected, time to fall and time to break all of the hundreds of thousands of bolts, rivets and welds, crush all the concrete plus thousands of computers, desks, copy machines, all the office contents, the speed of the total falling mass after each impact, and net mass falling after each observed ejection of the dust clouds of concrete powder, and the energy required to send the cloud all the way to New Jersey in a self-contained flow (this alone requires 14 tons of explosives - the 14 tons paper must be disproven as part of this contest. Contestants must show exactly how the concrete was pulverized and ejected with detailed drawings).

Second, entrants must prove that the allegedly weakened steel bolts, rivets, and welds had the strength to hold long enough for the concrete and contents to be crushed; and explain what made them fail afterwards. Entrants must include the energy required, source, and timing for breaking the bolts, rivets, and welds. If the force was strong enough to break the allegedly weakened by fire bolts, rivets, and welds then their was nothing to crush the concrete against since the middle of the floors would have flexed, given, since they were not supported. If the bolts, rivets, and welds held, then the building would not continue to collapse. If the strength of the allegedly fire weakened bolts, rivets, and welds was less than the power needed to crush concrete, then the concrete would not have been crushed until the whole mass hit the ground.

Entrants' must prove how the floors fell straight down so that each floor was crushed uniformly and how the pulverized dust was ejected from a steel pan with a steel plate and carpet over it. The official diagrams show each floor hitting in the middle of the lower floor. If so, then the concrete in the center might have been crushed, but not at the edges. Since all the concrete was pulverized, entrants must explain this in detail.

Your X ray vision works on videos too? It doesn't clearly show ANYTHING regarding time,much less to tenths of a second, after the tower was halfway collapsed you couldn't see it through the dust! Besides, you're ignoring the CLEARLY VISIBLE FACT that at the beginning of the collapse you can see the stories just above the impact collapsing first.

Seems like all you want to do is argue with someone here. Seriously , do you get some kind of rush or high from it or what ?

No, I value truth. Any claim that any footage shows exactly how long it took either tower to collapse is obviously false, both towers disappeared in their dust clouds well before the final impact. I argue with you because you keep posting "theories" based on falsehoods.

Seismic data shows how fast they fell , you don't have to see it with the naked eye. Please at least go to the site and read what it has to say before you argue all this. Your obviously not reading any of this. Go get that dvd and watch it,they explain it very well with very credible people. It's totally free no postage no nothing. And no , they will not beg you for donations either. They included a little slip asking for one if I learned anything. I have only heard from them one time since. They were asking me to watch for their nationwide commercials and report when i saw them. They are not money moochers.
https://secure.reopen911.org/freedvd.php

They only ask for donations so they can put this out there on the MSM that everyone seems to live by these days. You don't have to give them anything and they don't make a stingy list or anything. I promise you that if you get it and Really watch it you will come away with a different point of view on this whole subject. Whether it totally convinces you or not. You'll never think the same.

Seismic data wouldn't show how long they took to fall, anyone familiar with the properties of steel and what it take to have something register on a seismometer can clearly see that. You'd have to assume at what point sufficient signal is being passed to register. If you go by time stamp of final impact there are enough potential inaccuracies to make it laughable.

No thanks, I know enough science to spot a scam like that without hearing their whole spiel.

Wow, ok whatever you say
As far as being familiar with the properties of steel though. I am a Machinist and a Welder too. Have been for over 20 years. And rebuild machines that make bolt's nut's and rivets. I don't buy the story because I know for a fact you can't shear that many bolt's and rivet's that Prefectly. It don't happen that way! Especially with the type of steel used to make buildings.It's a low carbon steel , it would bend into a pretzel before it would break.

I've been a competition pistol shooter for better than 40 years jimijay...That doesn't make me an expert on initial and terminal ballistics.

Tom, you are obviously suffering from some pretty major personal flaws. Your surfeit of intelligence, alone, might be considered somewhat debilitating in and of itself, but when you add in your degree of rationality, I just can't imagine how you even survive in this world where one's political opinions should, by all rights, spring naturally from the process of visiting web sites without so much as a single question as to their veracity or point of view and simply allowing osmosis to take over from there.

A toast to healthy skepticism!

Properties change under extreme pressure , particularly in metals and some fluids, but in basically everything except gasses. This isn't something you'd run into under normal conditions, but you'll find mining engineers familiar with the basics (and geophysicists familiar with the same thing in rocks). I forget the exact formula but either a structural engineer or a mining engineer could tell you the pressure difference between static load bearing and different stages of the collapse, by halfway through it's mind boggling.

All it takes is for the initial collapse (each floor was essentially its own event) to be fairly level, the weight keeps it stable for the rest of the collapse without anything approaching perfection in the way bolts shear (vertical momentum outweighs horizontal momentum plus the inertia of the already collapsed stories is too much for any horizontal forces to overcome).

I never said i was an expert at anything Frenchy. I have worked with steel all my life though. And when I hear an MIT engineer explain it, it really makes a lot more sense to me thats all. And all i have been doing here is to get some people to order a free dvd and watch it.

You know what ? In my line of work I get to talk to lots of engineers. All of them that I have asked about this don't buy it either. But they were unaware of the time it took for the buildings to fall when i asked them about it. So in other words , they didn't buy it based on the way they fell (straight down). When I ask them about the 8 to 9 seconds though, it's impossible.

I'm not going to get sucked into this debate again, but will at leaste put in my

I'm not sure about the implosion of the WTC but I find the official version of what happened highly suspicious. I have watched the 911 video and a few others, too. The Re-open 9/11 video had some important parts - mainly the footage of the Pentagon before the roof collapsed. But they also did a lot in that video to discredit themselves in that they seem to fall into some kind of conspiracy paroxysm that turned me off. I wish they'd have had better editors (maybe a skeptic or two) to help them get rid of the over the top tin foil hat stuff.

I believe Cheney sent the fighter jets to Canada to prevent them from intercepting hijacked airplanes. I also believe he scheduled the "airplanes have been hijacked" drills on 9/11 to confuse the good people at the FAA who would have otherwise recognized what was going on much quicker.

I believe there was access to the twin towers and that the towers may have been rigged with explosives prior to the jets hitting them. And in the end, if I have to choose between what the 9/11 Commission/Bush administration says and what David Ray Griffin says, I'm going to go with David Ray Griffin. He's clearly the less corrupt/more credible of the two choices.


Oh, my God - a great big BUCK just ran through my mother's front yard!!! I think it had at least 4 points on its horns.

Just called my mother who saw it too and she says it had at least 6 points on it. Wow, they are really beautiful. You don't see the bucks very often. We frequently see the mamma deer and her babies - but the bucks only come out rarely.

Quick Gab ! grab a gun and shoot it

I'm kidding , it's deer season here in Arkansas. And as a matter of fact i'm about to head out for my lease. I need to do a little welding on one of the Gates
Damn vandals !

Sounds like the momma is heating up . It's that time of year again , you see the bucks because they are looking for or following the does.

Engineers I know (I went to what was at the time the top school for mining engineering) believe it, in fact straight down is what they'd expect, they're used to dealing with that kind of pressure. The 8 to 9 seconds is pure conjecture, any veneer of logical sounding methodology is hokum, getting even a reasonable estimate on the time is pure fantasy.

All this is without even going into the fact that it couldn't have been done by explosives without using too large an amount to go unnoticed. At the base they know from the 93 bombing that 2 tons isn't even close to enough to catastrophically weaken even a single support, you're looking at well over 100 tons at the base. To hide the 2+ tons it would take to start the collapse where it happened couldn't be done, someone would have wondered why their office was wired to blow. Besides, you still wouldn't have it going straight down according to the people you're putting your trust in. Do you REALLY think that someone wired each floor with at least a couple tons of explosives and went unnoticed? I'm not talking about a few random people, I mean noticed by thousands of people in the building.

I hope it's not like here, they keep shooting those big fat deer some of us call cows.

Edited to add they also shoot the deer in plaid jackets.

Oh, so that's what he's doing? Yes, he was following the path she usually takes with the babies. Cool. I guess that means more babies in the spring! This year I was coming out of my house and saw what looked like a fox darting into a neighbors yard. So I went closer to inspect and all of a sudden this doe came charging out after me in a very intimidating fashion. I never realized how BIG does were before! Well, I backed off a little and out came a brand new baby deer. He could barely walk. His legs were so wobbly. So he climbed up the little hill in my uncles field (he does hunt!) and then when he got to the top collapsed in exhaustion. The whole time the mother kept her eye right on me. It was so cool!!!

I enjoy watching animals too! It's great that this happened on your birthday! If it was big maybe they were elk.

OK tomhye I don't really want to argue with you because neither of us are experts. As far as 100 tons ?? Look into a little something called "cutter charges". Commonly used in controlled demolitions. Well placed, it don't take much from what i understand. True a truck bomb wouldn't bring it down. But thats one bomb in one place. I didn't get on this thread to argue with anyone. I hope one or even a few people will get that dvd and watch it though. You for one are pretty cemented in your thinking and refuse to listen to anything other that the 9-11 comission report and whatever the MSM will spew at you.
I for one believe very little of what the MSM or the government tells me anymore.
Now , sorry to leave but i have some work to do today. Maybe someone else will argue with you.
Have a nice day

You have a nice day too, and good luck welding the gate during deer season!

I have three does in my front yard every morning. Big oak trees all over here
It's really cool to watch them . I have even got pretty close to them and took pictures of them. I had 8 turkey's in the yard friday.

It's just bow season right now , but I'll be wearing my orange any way

Later folks !


Oh yeah , Happy Birthday Gab

If they had to use that much explosives, I'd say it would be hard to go unnoticed. But what if they used those high explosive things they've got over there in Iraq? That's what I was thinking. Granted I know zero about explosives.

Certainly it would be difficult to smuggle ten or fifty tons of explosives into the building without getting noticed. And without it leaking out. There could only have been a few people who knew what was happening in the whole thing or it would leak out.

And it's also fair to say we don't have an accurate time on how long it took the buildings to collapse because the base was obfuscated by the cloud of debris. That could possibly add a few seconds to the time of collapse. We probably can get an estimate on how long it took the top floors to collapse.

None of this, however, sways my underlying belief that Cheney knew and allowed it to happen. And helped it happen by stepping out of the way. Tom, you mentioned Cheney sold out to foreign interests. I've not heard this before but find it very fascinating. I wonder what foreign interests those were.



Jimiray, I think Tom has some good points and if you read this quote of his above he clearly says he thinks Cheney allowed it to happen. I just hope he's right about them sealing the fate of virtually every member of this administration.



I also agree with this, too. These guys are traitors who subverted the normal structure and procedures our government has put in place to prevent such things from happening.

I read somewhere (I think it was the speech given by Colin Powell's assistant) that Cheney and Rumsfeld had both been Secretary of Defense before and were both frustrated and pissed off at CIA and State for hemming and hawing over intelligence and always, in their opinion, analyzing the data to death and rendering it "unactionable." So they fixed that by setting up that special office in the Pentagon - their own intelligence agency, basically.

The same guy who told me 9/11 was allowed to happen also told me that Tenent was a good guy. And he told me the intelligence agencies were going to get this administration for outing Valerie Plame and for allowing our country to be attacked on 9/11 and for taking over our government and perverting it so grotesquely.

Thanks, jimiray. Only two years shy of the big 4-0 now!

I saw a PBS documentary on the construction of the WTC, that had edited material added due to 911. The edited material was added in light of 911.

They had interviews with the Architect, and with a Maintanence Chief (who died on 911), dicussing how the building was designed.

Unlike most Skyscrapers, the Towers were constructed with central and external load bearing girders. There were no cross beam connections, as in older skyscrapers such as the Empire State Building. Instead, each floor was attached as a piece to the central load bearing girders and the external beams by bracket like steel angle supports under each floor. This exceeded the needed specifications for load bearing each floor, but was much less than cross beam girder construction would have been. They saved on the amount of steel needed, and increased usable floor space by this design, but sacrificed internal strength.

They said that this design caused the pancaking as the multiple upper level floors impacted the single floor below, far exceeded each floors' bracket weight capacity. This aggregate and increasing weight caused the seeming free fall, because as they combined, the weight of the upper floors was so far beyond the supports capacity that there would be no discernable slowing.

Setting shaped charges would require thousands for a controlled demolition, this would take over a month in an empty building, no way it would go unnoticed in WTC. There's also the problem of not knowing how and where the jets would hit, this would require last minute changes in both the sequence and timing of the detonations, as far as I know there isn't a demolition crew in the world that would be up to the task. To my mind that leaves crude explosives (at least in method) or no explosives.

In the 90s Cheney accepted a medal from the President of Azerbaijan (Heidar Aliev) "for so well representing the interests of Azerbaijan in Washington". During the 2000 Republican Convention former speaker Livingston (who according to the DOJ filing was paid $1.8M to represent the Turkish government that year) was appointed to the Foreign Affairs Subcommittee of the Republican Platform Committee but removed after strong protest. Edmonds exposed Turkish moles hired as translators in the FBI & CIA, they mistranslated messages that would have given warning weeks before the attack. Their handler (a colonel in Turkish intelligence) had known ties to the Grey Wolves ( a right wing ultra-nationalist group officially classified as terrorists by the uS and Turkish governments) and was merely sent home, he retained his position. Cheney brokered the BTC pipeline between Azerbaijan and Turkey while he was CEO of Haliburton. Azerbaijan hired at least 500 al qaeda fighters in the 90s for their war with Armenia, the president of Nagorny Karabagh (the area being fought over) offered to hand over all captured papers & IDs to the Bush administration but they never responded. The cell calls coordinating the 9-11 attacks went through the al qaeda office in Baku Azerbaijan (it was finally closed last year). After bombings in Turkey the Turkish government admitted they were having trouble deciding whether to round up the over 500 people in Turkey known to have trained at al qaeda training camps for questioning.

I don't think the administration intentionally allowed the attack, they just know where their money comes from and weren't willing to disobey.

One thing we can be certain. Most of the family members and friends of the WTC 9/11 victims will not rest until the real truth is out and all the 9/11 terrorists go to jail with their tails dragging the ground beneath their butts. No 9/11 victims will be able to RIP until the real cause of their unpresidented deaths are officially confirmed. Their family members and friends will continue to fight against the lies to bring peace to their loved ones.

Keep checking the following sites for updates:

http://www.911citizenswatch.org/

http://www.911truth.org/

If American can be fooled by the Government with lies on the most shocking 9/11 event of modern times, they can expect to be lied on everything else.

And why is America and the World being destracted away from 9/11 by the hastened war on Iraq - especially when Saddam was already accepting to be exiled before the war started!

UAE Says Saddam Agreed to Exile Before War
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051029/ap_on_..._saddam_exile_1

Saddam accepted ill-fated exile proposal: UAE prince
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051029/en_af...am_051029152540

UAE: Saddam accepted secret exile before U.S. invasion
http://www.helenair.com/articles/2005/10/3...02103005_04.txt

An old piece of ignored 2003 news:
Despite Arab League's Rebuff, Saddam Exile Proposal Not Yet Dead http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/855708/posts

P.S.

Now that the Saddam-exile news is being to pipe out, it will definitely weaken any claims by the Bush Regime and its harem that the Iraq War (contributing to killing over 2000 of our young men and women, and thousands of Iraqi citizens) are necessary to capture and destroy a sadistic dictator. With Saddam's exile, Iraq could have a new government peacefully appointed by the Iraqi people. Why was the rush of Bush and his whores to put in their appointees? How did they so quickly find appointees? Those in the Conspiracy to finacial gains? Not surprising, when Chalabi seems to be behaving like bush's blood-brother! He was even allowed visits to some of the highly secured US buildings, not opened even to American citizens! And how did Chalabi extract intelligence info to pass on to Iran? Or is this just a piece of news whisped into the air to start another war - with iran? Someone must be anxious to rule over the Middle-East - and so willing to do it even if it hurts America.

Don't you need some form of interim government or council in place, before you can form a permanent one? Agreed that the hand picked were this administrations choice, but the end result will be the Iraqi's.

All Iraqis? Why then do they have to exclude women and Sunnis... and had to keep altering their Constitution when there were hues and cries from inside and outside Iraq? It does appear strange that we had to occupy Iraq and forced our selections - basically the Chalabi's relatives or those with ties to Chalabi - upon the Iraqis.

Why is it that "In a January 2004 interview with British Channel 4 TV, ex-Lebanese President Amin Gemayel said Saddam had rejected calls to leave Iraq and end the 2003 standoff with the United States. Gemayel mediated between Saddam and the Bush administration."

I guess the time has come with more and more decent insiders willing to clean their conscience and reveal the real truth! No one deserves to die or honored under an EVIL CONSPIRACY!

Giving birth to a constitution is a tedious and painful process. I don't believe that ours went swimmingly at first. Time and patience will determine the outcome.

This is becoming the deja vue all over again department:

Original thread on this is


http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...48&#entry369848

There are two issues that (IMHO) stand out:

a) A simple question, from a pilot (me):

Suppose Sept 11 had not been a beautiful day with 100 mile visibility. Suppose it had been the usual haze and humidity, 2 miles at best.

Do you think these "flying school rejects" could have flown a 767 at 500 mph into a building that they cound not even see until 10 seconds before impact?

I am a civilian pilot and FAA Certified Flight Instructor for over 35 years. Ever since 9/11, the media focussed on Saudi's enrolling in US flight schools to learn how to fly (but not land) planes. Okay, we all know where that leads.

But here's the problem- In actual fact, Mohammad Atta (the presumed pilot) flew a 767 at 550 mph into a building maybe 300 feet wide.

Take it from me- THIS IS A FEAT REQUIRING ENORMOUS SKILL WITH LITTLE MARGIN FOR ERROR. A fraction of a degree off and you miss the tower; to correct a few miles out at that speed requires a hugh bank of the wings - fighter pilot stuff.
The typical approach speed to a runway 200 feet wide is 160 mph. Moderate bank angles are required to keep the plane lined up with the runway centerline. This is NOT EASY, and these guys do it for a living.

I don't think that even a red-hot military fighter pilot could have done this on a clear day. However, if somebody had placed a small radio homing beacon in a window of the WTC, the plane's autopilot could have done it in zero-zero conditions.

Do you suppose there were beacons placed in the WTC?

Sure, put an ILS (instrument landing system) transmitter in the office you want to hit and set the ils system on the plane to land at that spot.

We'll never know, will we.





b) Another thing that seems weird to me about the collapse was that I would assume that the structural integrity of the buildings would be threatened in a non symmetric manner. In other words, there would be at least some tendency to topple to one side. In fact, the impact of the airplanes on one side only would seem to make this even more likely. Yet they both went straight down -- and I mean REALLY straight down. Right into the building's footprint. In addition, the steel from the buildings was immediately shipped off to Asia as scrap, before anyone could try to figure out the dynamics of the collapse, which would have been a tremendous boon to the structural engineers. Why did that happen?
The recent Blaze that lasted two days i believe (in Spain ) of a big tall building was only gutted and never collapsed. No sky scraper in history has ever fell as a result of Fire.
The firefighters who were there did not make up their story and were not mistaken by what they personally witnessed.
The Janitors in the sub level have no reason to lie about the explosions in the basement areas of the towers prior to the Pancaking of the towers.
They fell in their tracks !
Just like Controlled Demolition !

And now for true story "B" -
I heard a radio show which also included an interview of one of the fire chiefs who was in the 2nd tower when it fell. He described hearing the first tower fall and not knowing what it was until they told him on the radio. Later, he heard the same sounds in his tower and he knew the tower was falling upon him. He and his team were on the 6th level when the collapse overtook them. By some miracle the last 6 floors of that stairway alone survived the collapse, and hence, so did he and some of his men. Never once in that interview did he say he heard bombs going off. He said he heard a rumbling sound - - - no mention of explosives.


Now for today's recent posts - - -




He did. He was running a war games program which sent our fighters to northern Canada. He also put "injects" (false radar blips) onto FAA and NORAD Controllers' radar screens, making it difficult if not impossible to determine which blips represented the four hijacked planes.



As we all know, RDX and PTHN are so powerful that a golf-ball sized lump can blow a hole in an airplane big enough to walk through. It is POSSIBLE (but never proven) that one could have strung those charges in advance at the outer beams to create the conditions for a "progressive collapse." It still amazes me that the towers fell STRAIGHT DOWN.

I'm glad more people are speaking out. You should check out Ray McGovern. I think he has a book out too. But if you still believe that 9/11 was an attack by terrorist's check out the documentary film "Loose Change." And what is really interesting is only $5 million was spent on this investigation while $50 billion was spent on "Investigating" president Clinton. Also, check out some of the work by Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. I believe she more than likely knows the "attacks" were just bs.

I believe Cheney and the whole PNAC group is probably the key here to the truth. I think they got their plan(s) from Operation Northwoods. If you don't know about that definietly google it. They mention hijacking airplanes.

Another thing to remember is Bush's brother Neil was in charge of security at WTC until 9/11/01. Very convient timing eh? And sometimes all you have to do is follow the money. Who is it who has gained since 9/11 and why? The Silversteen guy had lots of money to gain by pulling the towers down. There was no reason why they had to go down. Wasn't NORAD also doing drills?

With the bombs there was a guy on this Christian site I went to once who was telling his story of how he survived being in a tower on 9/11 (http://reachout.org/ ) and he mentions he thought he heard bombs. Than on the day of the attacks two French people happened to be in NYC following firemen on doing a documentary that was supposed to be aired on CBS on the training and experience of new firemen (The French government did give warnings to the Bush administration so I wonder if that was really a "coincidence" ) and they showed three/four firemen talking about them being in the tower and hearing bombs. Try to find this online if you can.

I remember reading that a good little bit (fifteen minutes I think?) before the building was to go down Rudy Guiliani got a warning. So what if he was in on it? He was more than happy to appear at the RNC and whore around 9/11 like they always do. After watching the CNN special "Dead Wrong" on intelligence and Iraq and the Bush administration it makes me wonder if Tenet was working with the neocons. But I definietly think and get the impression there is this battle going on with the neocons and the CIA. Even Poppy Bush is on the side of Joe and Valerie Wilson.

Something else dealing with the Turkish government: isn't Dennis Hasert under investigation for doing deals with them and making bills to protect people who would/are considered terrorist's? I remember reading something about him and the Turkish government in an article from Vanity Fair with Sibel Edmonds.