Letter to the Editor
There's Never an Excuse for Torture
Tuesday, November 8, 2005; A18
Abuse, inhumane treatment or torture of any person in any place under any circumstance is wrong. Anyone who advocates the use of torture or inhumane treatment for any reason should be viewed with contempt. Abusing or torturing a captured enemy is an act of cowardice.
The Post has reported that some government officials advocate exceptions to a policy of absolute prohibition of inhumane treatment and that some are working in opposition to legislation proposed by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) ["Cheney Plan Exempts CIA From Bill Barring Abuse of Detainees," front page, Oct. 25 and "Cheney Fights for Detainee Policy," front page, Nov. 7].
Because The Post cited unnamed sources, it is unclear whether allegations that the CIA and members of the executive branch are trying to derail efforts to prohibit inhumane treatment of our captured enemies are true. I hope the sources are misinformed, for the alternative is too disheartening to contemplate.
Our nation, conceived in liberty, could just as easily die in tyranny if not for constant efforts to maintain our basic values. Rosa Parks courageously fought tyranny. I believe Mr. McCain is fighting the noble fight, too.
It is time for all people of conscience to do the same. If we do not resist the efforts by some to endorse the use of torture, the terrorists will have won.
CHRISTIAN MACEDONIA
Bethesda
The writer served for a year in Iraq as chief of the medical staff for the Army medical task force sent to Abu Ghraib in response to the Taguba report on detainee treatment. The views expressed here are his own.
Full Version: Letters to the Editor/Letters to Congress
Dear Representative Northup,
I am writing to you today to express my deep concern about the recent news reports that there may be footdragging with regards to the Defense Appropriations bill in the House because of the McCain amendment. I hope that these reports are false and that Speaker Hastert will assign the conferees immediately.
In addition, I hope that as our Representative from the Third District that you take an active leadership role to make sure that the conferees, not only keep the McCain amendment in the bill, but also make no changes to it's current language.
The abuse of prisoners is far too important an issue for any of our representatives to sit on the sidelines. This is an historical moment for this country and we need leaders with the moral courage to stand up for our American values and resist the heavy pressure from the administration. There should be NO exemption for the CIA or anyone else that would allow them to mistreat prisoners.
As I'm sure you must recognize, history will not be kind to those that permit this country to stoop to the level of our enemies by writing into law the ability to torture.
I am confident that you will not allow the administration to continue to use the fear of terrorists as an excuse to pervert our country's values.
I sent an email earlier today to Senator McConnell asking him to take a leadership role as well. I am including a copy of that email below.
Dear Senator McConnell,
I contacted your office by phone right after you voted to have amendment 1977 (McCain amendment) included in the Defense Appropriations bill. At that time, I complimented you for standing up for American values. You and the other 89 senators sent a clear message to the world that this country will follow the rule of law and I applauded you for it.
Recent news accounts have reported that our own vice president has been lobbying Congress behind the scenes to exempt the CIA from that amendment. And in light of yesterday’s news about the secret CIA prisons, I felt that it was imperative that I contact you again.
As an American I find it absolutely disgraceful that our own vice president would seek to have the ability to torture enshrined in our law. And evidently President Bush must approve of what he is doing or he would have stopped him. How in the world did we go so far astray? How did we let the fear of terrorists distort our own moral compass? If the CIA is exempted from this amendment then we have already lost the war on terror.
The people of Kentucky look to you to make sure that our values are protected and not tarnished by the abuse of power demonstrated by this administration's lobbying efforts. Please use your considerable influence to make sure that the CIA is NOT exempted from the McCain amendment in the conference committee. The eyes of Kentucky, the nation, and the world are looking to you and your colleagues to put an end to this insanity.
Confirmation: Your message was sent
Your e-mail message was sent to:
• Anne M. Northup (R-KY 3rd)
I am writing to you today to express my deep concern about the recent news reports that there may be footdragging with regards to the Defense Appropriations bill in the House because of the McCain amendment. I hope that these reports are false and that Speaker Hastert will assign the conferees immediately.
In addition, I hope that as our Representative from the Third District that you take an active leadership role to make sure that the conferees, not only keep the McCain amendment in the bill, but also make no changes to it's current language.
The abuse of prisoners is far too important an issue for any of our representatives to sit on the sidelines. This is an historical moment for this country and we need leaders with the moral courage to stand up for our American values and resist the heavy pressure from the administration. There should be NO exemption for the CIA or anyone else that would allow them to mistreat prisoners.
As I'm sure you must recognize, history will not be kind to those that permit this country to stoop to the level of our enemies by writing into law the ability to torture.
I am confident that you will not allow the administration to continue to use the fear of terrorists as an excuse to pervert our country's values.
I sent an email earlier today to Senator McConnell asking him to take a leadership role as well. I am including a copy of that email below.
Dear Senator McConnell,
I contacted your office by phone right after you voted to have amendment 1977 (McCain amendment) included in the Defense Appropriations bill. At that time, I complimented you for standing up for American values. You and the other 89 senators sent a clear message to the world that this country will follow the rule of law and I applauded you for it.
Recent news accounts have reported that our own vice president has been lobbying Congress behind the scenes to exempt the CIA from that amendment. And in light of yesterday’s news about the secret CIA prisons, I felt that it was imperative that I contact you again.
As an American I find it absolutely disgraceful that our own vice president would seek to have the ability to torture enshrined in our law. And evidently President Bush must approve of what he is doing or he would have stopped him. How in the world did we go so far astray? How did we let the fear of terrorists distort our own moral compass? If the CIA is exempted from this amendment then we have already lost the war on terror.
The people of Kentucky look to you to make sure that our values are protected and not tarnished by the abuse of power demonstrated by this administration's lobbying efforts. Please use your considerable influence to make sure that the CIA is NOT exempted from the McCain amendment in the conference committee. The eyes of Kentucky, the nation, and the world are looking to you and your colleagues to put an end to this insanity.
Confirmation: Your message was sent
Your e-mail message was sent to:
• Anne M. Northup (R-KY 3rd)
Dear Speaker Hastert,
I recently sent an email to my representative, Ann Northup, concerning the McCain amendment that is contained in the Senate Defense Appropriations bill. I expressed to her my concern at the recent reports appearing in the news that a delay tactic is being used on this legislation. If these reports are true, it is totally unacceptable.
I normally do not write to representatives in the Congress other than my own representatives from Kentucky. However, this issue is so important to America that I felt that I must contact you personally.
Now is not the time for mere Party loyalty or deference to the administration. This issue goes beyond that. This issue will shape the character of this country for generations to come and, as such, it is far too important to be decided by partisan politics.
If the House leadership tries to impede the overwhelming support for this amendment in both the House and Senate then all of you will shame the very institution where you work. The vice president and the president are WRONG on this issue. The Congress has a duty to the American people to reject this administration’s odorous attempt to exclude the CIA from the McCain amendment provisions. As I shared with Rep. Northup -- if the CIA is exempted from this amendment then we have already lost the war on terror.
In addition to the McCain amendment, Congress needs to adhere to its oversight responsibilities and appoint an independent commission to investigate the numerous, well-documented charges that accuse our country of abusing prisoners in our charge. If we do not have a full, independent investigation these charges will continue to fester and our nation will suffer grievously as a result of it.
I trust that you and the rest of the leadership will think very seriously about your actions in this matter. I can assure you that the nation and the world are watching you. The voters and history will not be kind to anyone that allows our country to continue to go down this destructive path.
I am including in this email a copy of the letter that I sent to Rep. Northup.
I recently sent an email to my representative, Ann Northup, concerning the McCain amendment that is contained in the Senate Defense Appropriations bill. I expressed to her my concern at the recent reports appearing in the news that a delay tactic is being used on this legislation. If these reports are true, it is totally unacceptable.
I normally do not write to representatives in the Congress other than my own representatives from Kentucky. However, this issue is so important to America that I felt that I must contact you personally.
Now is not the time for mere Party loyalty or deference to the administration. This issue goes beyond that. This issue will shape the character of this country for generations to come and, as such, it is far too important to be decided by partisan politics.
If the House leadership tries to impede the overwhelming support for this amendment in both the House and Senate then all of you will shame the very institution where you work. The vice president and the president are WRONG on this issue. The Congress has a duty to the American people to reject this administration’s odorous attempt to exclude the CIA from the McCain amendment provisions. As I shared with Rep. Northup -- if the CIA is exempted from this amendment then we have already lost the war on terror.
In addition to the McCain amendment, Congress needs to adhere to its oversight responsibilities and appoint an independent commission to investigate the numerous, well-documented charges that accuse our country of abusing prisoners in our charge. If we do not have a full, independent investigation these charges will continue to fester and our nation will suffer grievously as a result of it.
I trust that you and the rest of the leadership will think very seriously about your actions in this matter. I can assure you that the nation and the world are watching you. The voters and history will not be kind to anyone that allows our country to continue to go down this destructive path.
I am including in this email a copy of the letter that I sent to Rep. Northup.
Here is my letter to the Courier-Journal. I went over their suggested word count a little bit but hopefully it will still be published. They do advise that longer letters are sometimes published.
QUOTE
I am appalled that the Bush administration continues to prey upon the American people’s understandable fear of terrorists by using that fear to aid them in their efforts to exempt the CIA from the provisions of the McCain amendment that calls for humane treatment of prisoners.
Not only are there well-documented charges of abuse at Guantanamo and other known prisons visited by the Red Cross but now we find out that the CIA has secret prisons that no outsider, including Red Cross representatives, has ever been permitted to enter. One does not need much of an imagination to visualize the horrors that must be occurring in these “secret prisons” or to understand why this administration has gone to such lengths to exempt the CIA from being required to treat prisoners humanely.
I just sent a letter to Senator McConnell & Rep. Northup asking them to play a leadership role in stopping the House leadership from impeding the passage of the McCain amendment or from inserting the CIA exemption that the administration is pressuring them to do.
An overwhelming majority of the Senate and the House are standing up for the values this country has held for over 200 years. It is now time for the rest of us to do as well. We can not remain silent any longer. I would encourage my fellow citizens to go to congress.org and take a moment of your time to send emails to your representatives. They need to know that Kentuckians believe in the rule of law and will not allow an argument that plays on our fear of terrorists to fool us into supporting something that distorts our moral compass. They are under extreme pressure from this administration and they need to know that we will stand behind them.
Not only are there well-documented charges of abuse at Guantanamo and other known prisons visited by the Red Cross but now we find out that the CIA has secret prisons that no outsider, including Red Cross representatives, has ever been permitted to enter. One does not need much of an imagination to visualize the horrors that must be occurring in these “secret prisons” or to understand why this administration has gone to such lengths to exempt the CIA from being required to treat prisoners humanely.
I just sent a letter to Senator McConnell & Rep. Northup asking them to play a leadership role in stopping the House leadership from impeding the passage of the McCain amendment or from inserting the CIA exemption that the administration is pressuring them to do.
An overwhelming majority of the Senate and the House are standing up for the values this country has held for over 200 years. It is now time for the rest of us to do as well. We can not remain silent any longer. I would encourage my fellow citizens to go to congress.org and take a moment of your time to send emails to your representatives. They need to know that Kentuckians believe in the rule of law and will not allow an argument that plays on our fear of terrorists to fool us into supporting something that distorts our moral compass. They are under extreme pressure from this administration and they need to know that we will stand behind them.
Dear Senator McCain,
I want to thank you and the other Senators for your willingness to stand up to this adminstration on the treatment of prisoner issue. A grateful nation thanks you all for your patriotism. I have recently asked both Senator McConnell and Representative Northup from my state of Kentucky to take a leadership role in support of your efforts.
In addition, I sent an email to Speaker Hastert expressing my concern that there may be some political games being played with this amendment by the House leadership.
I am including in this email copies of all three of my recent emails so that you and the other Senators will know that the majority of Americans are behind you 100%. You may not get as many emails in support of your effort because most people see that you are already doing the right thing and will not take the time to send you an email. While that is unfortunate, make no mistake, those citizens are in the majority and they are with you on this issue.
Confirmation: Your message was sent
Your e-mail message was sent to:
• John McCain (R-AZ )
I want to thank you and the other Senators for your willingness to stand up to this adminstration on the treatment of prisoner issue. A grateful nation thanks you all for your patriotism. I have recently asked both Senator McConnell and Representative Northup from my state of Kentucky to take a leadership role in support of your efforts.
In addition, I sent an email to Speaker Hastert expressing my concern that there may be some political games being played with this amendment by the House leadership.
I am including in this email copies of all three of my recent emails so that you and the other Senators will know that the majority of Americans are behind you 100%. You may not get as many emails in support of your effort because most people see that you are already doing the right thing and will not take the time to send you an email. While that is unfortunate, make no mistake, those citizens are in the majority and they are with you on this issue.
Confirmation: Your message was sent
Your e-mail message was sent to:
• John McCain (R-AZ )
Big Blue Blog letter to my congressman.
Well as I feared, my original letter to my local paper was too long. 
I got an email from the newspaper where they gave me an opportunity for a do-over.
I didn't see the email until late tonight so I have spent hours trying to fix my darn letter. As a non-writer, it was hard enough to write the the letter the first time but trying to fix it in the wee hours of the morning was pure agony.
Here is my corrected homework. This time I know that it at least corresponds with the newspapers suggested word count. I do not know, however, whether or not it makes any sense.
I got an email from the newspaper where they gave me an opportunity for a do-over. I didn't see the email until late tonight so I have spent hours trying to fix my darn letter. As a non-writer, it was hard enough to write the the letter the first time but trying to fix it in the wee hours of the morning was pure agony.
Here is my corrected homework.
This time I know that it at least corresponds with the newspapers suggested word count. I do not know, however, whether or not it makes any sense. QUOTE
I am appalled that the Bush administration would use our understandable fear of terrorists as leverage to help sell the ridiculous idea that, in order for Bush to protect us, Congress must exempt the CIA from the McCain amendment requirement to treat detainees humanely.
The interrogation methods that we historically called torture are now called “extreme interrogation methods” by this administration. This deliberate ruse enables Bush to say; “we don’t torture”. But twisting the language to narrowly define torture can’t hide well-documented cases where torture was clearly used by us -- torture that sometimes resulted in the death of the detainee.
So far we have no evidence where torture provided us with any reliable intelligence. But we do have evidence, like the evidence from the al-libi case, where torture yielded bogus information.
I urge Kentuckians to go to congress.org and let Congress know that we will not allow a specious argument, that plays on our fears, to fool us into supporting something that distorts the laws and values our country has championed for over 200 years. While the majority of Congress currently supports the McCain amendment, they need our help to resist the extreme White House pressure to change it.
The interrogation methods that we historically called torture are now called “extreme interrogation methods” by this administration. This deliberate ruse enables Bush to say; “we don’t torture”. But twisting the language to narrowly define torture can’t hide well-documented cases where torture was clearly used by us -- torture that sometimes resulted in the death of the detainee.
So far we have no evidence where torture provided us with any reliable intelligence. But we do have evidence, like the evidence from the al-libi case, where torture yielded bogus information.
I urge Kentuckians to go to congress.org and let Congress know that we will not allow a specious argument, that plays on our fears, to fool us into supporting something that distorts the laws and values our country has championed for over 200 years. While the majority of Congress currently supports the McCain amendment, they need our help to resist the extreme White House pressure to change it.
I sent this email to the Atlanta Journal Constitution concerning their editorial today.
QUOTE
I want to compliment the paper on todays editorial - Torture destroys U.S. credibility. I was so proud to see this hard hitting editorial.
I am outraged at this adminstration's behavior and puzzled by the lack of outrage expressed by our citizens. It is only the consistent coverage of this issue by newspapers like yours and others, all across the country, that give me hope that one day our citizens will finally wake up.
I'm certainly doing everything that I can do. I have written letters to Congress, the media, the ABA & my local paper. I even sent an email to Oprah Winfrey to try to get her to do a show on this issue to fire up the public.
If someone would organize a march on Washington over this issue I would drop everything and go. It has been years since I went to Washington to protest but if something doesn't happen soon, I may just have to try to organize a march of my own.
Maybe having thousands of citizens picketing the White House will finally get TV news to consistently cover this issue like they cover superflous stories like Michael Jackson. They have been sadly missing on consistently covering this issue (except for PBS).
Thanks again, and keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
I am outraged at this adminstration's behavior and puzzled by the lack of outrage expressed by our citizens. It is only the consistent coverage of this issue by newspapers like yours and others, all across the country, that give me hope that one day our citizens will finally wake up.
I'm certainly doing everything that I can do. I have written letters to Congress, the media, the ABA & my local paper. I even sent an email to Oprah Winfrey to try to get her to do a show on this issue to fire up the public.
If someone would organize a march on Washington over this issue I would drop everything and go. It has been years since I went to Washington to protest but if something doesn't happen soon, I may just have to try to organize a march of my own.
Maybe having thousands of citizens picketing the White House will finally get TV news to consistently cover this issue like they cover superflous stories like Michael Jackson. They have been sadly missing on consistently covering this issue (except for PBS).
Thanks again, and keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
QUOTE
Torture destroys U.S. credibility
Long-held, revered national standards leave no room for abhorrent practice
Published on: 11/13/05
Publicly, President Bush and top administration officials deny categorically, in the sincere, even pious language of human rights activists all over the world, that the United States would ever stoop so low as to torture human beings.
Yet behind the scenes, in congressional backrooms, in secret memos, in White House meetings and elsewhere, administration officials are fighting hard for the authority to practice the torture they claim to abhor as much as any other civilized person.
And in secret prisons spread all over the world, far from U.S. legal authority, they have created the physical infrastructure needed to practice that torture away from prying eyes.
Well, there's a word for people who loudly proclaim one thing in public while doing another in private. That word is "hypocrite." We are a proud if not a perfect country, and throughout our history, we have at least tried to live up to the standards that we claim to hold dear or holy.
Until now, that is.
Now, an American government is torturing laws, words and logic to justify torturing people as well. It is remarkable that we allowed fear to drive us to such depths.
(By the way, there is also a term for those who violate both international law and American law by systematically torturing and in some cases killing their captives. Throughout civilized history, that term has been "war criminal.")
During World War II, we were fighting for our very existence against two of the most powerful militaries the world has ever known. It was a hard-fought war, brutal and bloody. By the end, we had lost more than 400,000. But through it all, even in the darkest days of that war, torture was never a tactic sanctioned by those at the highest levels of our government.
That war was understood to be a struggle between good and evil. The Bush administration has cast our struggle against Islamic terrorists in similar terms, and in many ways that depiction is accurate. The suicide attacks last week in Jordan drove that point home once again.
However, our success or failure in this current war ultimately does not depend on our firepower or manpower — if that were the case, we'd have won it long ago, given our military dominance. Instead, success depends on the superiority of our ideas, on our ability to convince people in the Middle East and elsewhere that we really are the good guys, and that the world we offer them is a better place than the world envisioned by our enemies.
We cannot win that battle if we are known to practice torture. It is barbaric and useless and contradicts every moral and ethical standard we are allegedly fighting to uphold.
It is a tactic of the weak and fearful, and despite what some of our leaders tell us, we are stronger than that.
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion...3edtorture.html
Long-held, revered national standards leave no room for abhorrent practice
Published on: 11/13/05
Publicly, President Bush and top administration officials deny categorically, in the sincere, even pious language of human rights activists all over the world, that the United States would ever stoop so low as to torture human beings.
Yet behind the scenes, in congressional backrooms, in secret memos, in White House meetings and elsewhere, administration officials are fighting hard for the authority to practice the torture they claim to abhor as much as any other civilized person.
And in secret prisons spread all over the world, far from U.S. legal authority, they have created the physical infrastructure needed to practice that torture away from prying eyes.
Well, there's a word for people who loudly proclaim one thing in public while doing another in private. That word is "hypocrite." We are a proud if not a perfect country, and throughout our history, we have at least tried to live up to the standards that we claim to hold dear or holy.
Until now, that is.
Now, an American government is torturing laws, words and logic to justify torturing people as well. It is remarkable that we allowed fear to drive us to such depths.
(By the way, there is also a term for those who violate both international law and American law by systematically torturing and in some cases killing their captives. Throughout civilized history, that term has been "war criminal.")
During World War II, we were fighting for our very existence against two of the most powerful militaries the world has ever known. It was a hard-fought war, brutal and bloody. By the end, we had lost more than 400,000. But through it all, even in the darkest days of that war, torture was never a tactic sanctioned by those at the highest levels of our government.
That war was understood to be a struggle between good and evil. The Bush administration has cast our struggle against Islamic terrorists in similar terms, and in many ways that depiction is accurate. The suicide attacks last week in Jordan drove that point home once again.
However, our success or failure in this current war ultimately does not depend on our firepower or manpower — if that were the case, we'd have won it long ago, given our military dominance. Instead, success depends on the superiority of our ideas, on our ability to convince people in the Middle East and elsewhere that we really are the good guys, and that the world we offer them is a better place than the world envisioned by our enemies.
We cannot win that battle if we are known to practice torture. It is barbaric and useless and contradicts every moral and ethical standard we are allegedly fighting to uphold.
It is a tactic of the weak and fearful, and despite what some of our leaders tell us, we are stronger than that.
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion...3edtorture.html
I sent this email to the NY Post about the article below. I don't expect it to be published.
Here are the pathetic responses to his article.
QUOTE
In reading Peter Brooke’s recent article it is obvious that he doesn't really mind the CIA black sites or the torture of prisoners. What he does mind is that it is all starting to get too much attention. He, like other supporters of the President, feels the pressure from the condemnation that is coming in from all quarters and he sees the Bush administration in jeopardy because of it. He wants to "turn the page" on this issue, as quickly as possible, before any more damaging information spills out.
But judging by the letters in response to his article, the foot soldiers in this right-wing army, that believe the Bush administration rhetoric, are not ready to turn the page. It is obvious from reading their comments that these people are out for blood and they will not be denied their revenge. The administration supporters, like Mr. Brookes, who helped create these "monsters" for political reasons, no longer have the power to control these rabid supporters. This genie is out of the bottle and only the light of day shining in on this whole sorry mess will be enough to put it back in.
But judging by the letters in response to his article, the foot soldiers in this right-wing army, that believe the Bush administration rhetoric, are not ready to turn the page. It is obvious from reading their comments that these people are out for blood and they will not be denied their revenge. The administration supporters, like Mr. Brookes, who helped create these "monsters" for political reasons, no longer have the power to control these rabid supporters. This genie is out of the bottle and only the light of day shining in on this whole sorry mess will be enough to put it back in.
QUOTE
A Black Eye Over Black Sites
Nov 7, 2005
by Peter Brookes ( bio | archive | contact )
A key factor in planning any covert operation is full consideration of "blowback" - the painful consequences of an "op" gone bad. This time the CIA is stinging from the "blowback" of last week's revelation that it's playing warden to a string of secret overseas terrorist prisons.
With human-rights groups howling "torture" and "gulag," the International Red Cross and the European Union seeking answers, and the Bush administration maintaining monk-like silence, the effect on public opinion at home and America's image abroad will be painful.
So how do we recover from this newest black eye?
By taking action: Close the "black site" jailhouses, transfer the detainees to established facilities like Guantanamo Bay; and pass/implement legislation in the spirit of Sen. John McCain's (R-Ariz.) amendments to the pending Defense Department spending bill.
These interrogation/incarceration facilities made a great deal of sense immediately after the 9/11 attacks - nabbing al Qaeda terrorists, quickly gathering critical intelligence and preventing future terrorist strikes. But they've outlived their usefulness.
With the expectation that other terrorist attacks were imminent in the days after 9/11, it was a good idea for the CIA to establish - ASAP - regional detention facilities in such far-flung places as Afghanistan, Thailand and, even, Eastern Europe to quickly get al Qaeda operatives out of circulation.
The threat was real: In December 2001, for instance, Singapore broke up a well-developed bombing plot against the U.S. ships and sailors and the U.S. Australian, British and Israeli embassies by the al Qaeda affiliate Jemaah Islamiya.
In fact, most of the commentariat agreed that, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, the CIA did a terrific job in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Its quick actions in neutralizing al Qaeda assets across the globe undoubtedly disrupted additional attacks on the homeland and American interests overseas.
But with high-tech, high-security facilities like the U.S. naval prison at "Gitmo" now available, these clandestine holding facilities have lost their original purpose. The CIA's jailhouses should be shuttered, and the detainees moved to places where they can be held and fully interrogated for their intelligence value.
Sen. McCain is onto something as well. McCain's so-called "Anti-Torture Provisions" (presented as amendments to this year's defense spending bill) set clear guidelines (finally!) for the treatment of enemy detainees. The move has wide bipartisan support in Congress.
This common-sense legislation would: a) Establish the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation (FM 34-52) as the standard for detainee interrogation; and Prohibit cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment for those under U.S. detention.
McCain, a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War, realizes that - contrary to popular belief - the use of extreme measures (e.g., torture and humiliation) in the detainee interrogation process is counterproductive to gathering intelligence and our image abroad, especially in the Muslim world.
In fact, highly coercive techniques actually hinder our interrogators from acquiring accurate information desperately needed by battlefield commanders and policymakers because detainees will often say almost anything to get the interrogator to stop the torture/humiliation.
Moreover, McCain rightly notes that prisoner abuse "has executed a terrible toll on us in the war of ideas." Considering past mistakes like Abu Ghraib, it's time to end this cycle of abuse scandals and unequivocally declare in law that we don't support torture or similar interrogation techniques, even in times of war.
While some argue that the issue of "cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment" needs greater definition in the legislation, the McCain rules provide U.S. military personnel with interrogation guidelines that have been much-needed for far too long.
And while others argue that the legislation usurps the president's right to provide for American national security, the U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 8) gives Congress the explicit right to make rules for the nation's armed forces.
If anything, the McCain measures should cover all personnel involved in detention/interrogation, including the CIA and U.S. government contractors.
If congressional leaders manage to squelch the McCain proposals, they'll also send an inadvertent, but regrettable, message abroad: Torture is "OK" by the American people. That's wrong, and it endangers America's security, credibility and interests abroad, including our troops in harm's way.
While the memories of Abu Ghraib are still fresh and with new allegations of secret CIA prisons, the Congress and the Bush administration can't move too quickly in turning the page on this dark chapter by publicly setting clear, consistent rules for where and how we hold and treat detainees in our custody.
Peter Brookes is a Senior Fellow at the Heritage Foundation. Mr. Brookes focuses on foreign policy and national security affairs
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/pe.../07/174507.html
Nov 7, 2005
by Peter Brookes ( bio | archive | contact )
A key factor in planning any covert operation is full consideration of "blowback" - the painful consequences of an "op" gone bad. This time the CIA is stinging from the "blowback" of last week's revelation that it's playing warden to a string of secret overseas terrorist prisons.
With human-rights groups howling "torture" and "gulag," the International Red Cross and the European Union seeking answers, and the Bush administration maintaining monk-like silence, the effect on public opinion at home and America's image abroad will be painful.
So how do we recover from this newest black eye?
By taking action: Close the "black site" jailhouses, transfer the detainees to established facilities like Guantanamo Bay; and pass/implement legislation in the spirit of Sen. John McCain's (R-Ariz.) amendments to the pending Defense Department spending bill.
These interrogation/incarceration facilities made a great deal of sense immediately after the 9/11 attacks - nabbing al Qaeda terrorists, quickly gathering critical intelligence and preventing future terrorist strikes. But they've outlived their usefulness.
With the expectation that other terrorist attacks were imminent in the days after 9/11, it was a good idea for the CIA to establish - ASAP - regional detention facilities in such far-flung places as Afghanistan, Thailand and, even, Eastern Europe to quickly get al Qaeda operatives out of circulation.
The threat was real: In December 2001, for instance, Singapore broke up a well-developed bombing plot against the U.S. ships and sailors and the U.S. Australian, British and Israeli embassies by the al Qaeda affiliate Jemaah Islamiya.
In fact, most of the commentariat agreed that, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, the CIA did a terrific job in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Its quick actions in neutralizing al Qaeda assets across the globe undoubtedly disrupted additional attacks on the homeland and American interests overseas.
But with high-tech, high-security facilities like the U.S. naval prison at "Gitmo" now available, these clandestine holding facilities have lost their original purpose. The CIA's jailhouses should be shuttered, and the detainees moved to places where they can be held and fully interrogated for their intelligence value.
Sen. McCain is onto something as well. McCain's so-called "Anti-Torture Provisions" (presented as amendments to this year's defense spending bill) set clear guidelines (finally!) for the treatment of enemy detainees. The move has wide bipartisan support in Congress.
This common-sense legislation would: a) Establish the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation (FM 34-52) as the standard for detainee interrogation; and Prohibit cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment for those under U.S. detention.
McCain, a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War, realizes that - contrary to popular belief - the use of extreme measures (e.g., torture and humiliation) in the detainee interrogation process is counterproductive to gathering intelligence and our image abroad, especially in the Muslim world.
In fact, highly coercive techniques actually hinder our interrogators from acquiring accurate information desperately needed by battlefield commanders and policymakers because detainees will often say almost anything to get the interrogator to stop the torture/humiliation.
Moreover, McCain rightly notes that prisoner abuse "has executed a terrible toll on us in the war of ideas." Considering past mistakes like Abu Ghraib, it's time to end this cycle of abuse scandals and unequivocally declare in law that we don't support torture or similar interrogation techniques, even in times of war.
While some argue that the issue of "cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment" needs greater definition in the legislation, the McCain rules provide U.S. military personnel with interrogation guidelines that have been much-needed for far too long.
And while others argue that the legislation usurps the president's right to provide for American national security, the U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 8) gives Congress the explicit right to make rules for the nation's armed forces.
If anything, the McCain measures should cover all personnel involved in detention/interrogation, including the CIA and U.S. government contractors.
If congressional leaders manage to squelch the McCain proposals, they'll also send an inadvertent, but regrettable, message abroad: Torture is "OK" by the American people. That's wrong, and it endangers America's security, credibility and interests abroad, including our troops in harm's way.
While the memories of Abu Ghraib are still fresh and with new allegations of secret CIA prisons, the Congress and the Bush administration can't move too quickly in turning the page on this dark chapter by publicly setting clear, consistent rules for where and how we hold and treat detainees in our custody.
Peter Brookes is a Senior Fellow at the Heritage Foundation. Mr. Brookes focuses on foreign policy and national security affairs
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/pe.../07/174507.html
Here are the pathetic responses to his article.
QUOTE
TORTURE: BY THE BOOK — OR PLAYING DIRTY?
THE ISSUE: Peter Brookes' column endorsing Sen. John McCain's drive to ban torture.
The concerns of Peter Brookes and Sen. John McCain regarding the torture of enemy prisoners would be valid if we were involved in war games at Fort Bragg ("The Torture Test, PostOpinion, Nov. 7).
Unfortunately, the war in the Middle East is not a game. It must be fought in accordance with the real rules of war.
Enemy torture is an essential part of war, and its application must be consistent with the type of enemy.
Enemies who shun physical torture must be tortured physically and those who shun mental torture must be tortured mentally.
Torture demoralizes and embarrasses the enemy, and it causes them not to be so brazen in their attacks.
In war, we accept death, paralysis, loss of limbs, mental disorder, family breakups, the torture of our soldiers and the torture of civilians.
The only thing we do not seem to accept is the torture of the enemy.
Perhaps Brookes and McCain can explain this phenomenon.
Both of them know very well that terrorists wouldn't hesitate to cut either of their throats on live television, but their big concern seems to be with how others view America.
Elio Valenti
Brooklyn
*****
Brookes' article on torture left me angry and frustrated.
He wants to limit our ability to torture captured Islamists in order to improve our "credibility."
Brookes is concerned about protecting the safety of our soldiers if they are captured by the Islamists.
Has he noticed how they treat the Iraqi soldiers they have captured?
It's true they do not torture them — they just have them kneel down and they either cut their heads off or slit their throats.
But, according to Brookes, this will change if we pass the McCain bill.
The war against terrorism is unlike "regular" wars. We owe nothing to people who have lost touch with the civilized world and who have no regard for human life.
Dave O'Neill
Manhattan
*****
By passing McCain's bill, we would be telling terrorists that they will be treated with kid gloves. This is not the way you fight a war.
The fear of us doing something to them is what will help them crack.
These are the people who would chop our soldiers' heads off.
We have to treat them like the combat soldiers they are.
Ray Bernatowicz
Carteret, N.J.
http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/pfriendly_new.php
THE ISSUE: Peter Brookes' column endorsing Sen. John McCain's drive to ban torture.
The concerns of Peter Brookes and Sen. John McCain regarding the torture of enemy prisoners would be valid if we were involved in war games at Fort Bragg ("The Torture Test, PostOpinion, Nov. 7).
Unfortunately, the war in the Middle East is not a game. It must be fought in accordance with the real rules of war.
Enemy torture is an essential part of war, and its application must be consistent with the type of enemy.
Enemies who shun physical torture must be tortured physically and those who shun mental torture must be tortured mentally.
Torture demoralizes and embarrasses the enemy, and it causes them not to be so brazen in their attacks.
In war, we accept death, paralysis, loss of limbs, mental disorder, family breakups, the torture of our soldiers and the torture of civilians.
The only thing we do not seem to accept is the torture of the enemy.
Perhaps Brookes and McCain can explain this phenomenon.
Both of them know very well that terrorists wouldn't hesitate to cut either of their throats on live television, but their big concern seems to be with how others view America.
Elio Valenti
Brooklyn
*****
Brookes' article on torture left me angry and frustrated.
He wants to limit our ability to torture captured Islamists in order to improve our "credibility."
Brookes is concerned about protecting the safety of our soldiers if they are captured by the Islamists.
Has he noticed how they treat the Iraqi soldiers they have captured?
It's true they do not torture them — they just have them kneel down and they either cut their heads off or slit their throats.
But, according to Brookes, this will change if we pass the McCain bill.
The war against terrorism is unlike "regular" wars. We owe nothing to people who have lost touch with the civilized world and who have no regard for human life.
Dave O'Neill
Manhattan
*****
By passing McCain's bill, we would be telling terrorists that they will be treated with kid gloves. This is not the way you fight a war.
The fear of us doing something to them is what will help them crack.
These are the people who would chop our soldiers' heads off.
We have to treat them like the combat soldiers they are.
Ray Bernatowicz
Carteret, N.J.
http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/pfriendly_new.php
My Letter to the editor and the column that sparked it.
QUOTE
It is sad that Mr. Gelernter must resort to name calling to buttress his shaky arguments in favor of torture. To listen to him, those of us that support humane treatment of prisoners are good hearted but wrong headed, lazy minded, naïve and devoid of integrity and moral courage.
He uses a Bybee memo argument that says the CIA doesn’t WANT to torture. Of course the discredited Bybee memo argued if there is no intent, then it isn’t torture. Because of that memo the administration now calls torture “extreme interrogation techniques” and this columnist calls it “squeezing the truth out of prisoners”. While it may be true that most of the CIA doesn’t want to torture, it is also true that their bosses in the administration clearly do.
He also uses the old standby scare tactic that we have a responsibility to torture because it may be the ONLY way to save “innocent” lives.
And of all the ridiculous reasons why he says that we should support torture, is because Cheney, by virtue of standing alone in arguing for torture, is the true man of integrity, leadership and moral courage. In fact he calls him a hero.
What I want to know is did they torture this columnist to get him to say such ridiculous things?
He uses a Bybee memo argument that says the CIA doesn’t WANT to torture. Of course the discredited Bybee memo argued if there is no intent, then it isn’t torture. Because of that memo the administration now calls torture “extreme interrogation techniques” and this columnist calls it “squeezing the truth out of prisoners”. While it may be true that most of the CIA doesn’t want to torture, it is also true that their bosses in the administration clearly do.
He also uses the old standby scare tactic that we have a responsibility to torture because it may be the ONLY way to save “innocent” lives.
And of all the ridiculous reasons why he says that we should support torture, is because Cheney, by virtue of standing alone in arguing for torture, is the true man of integrity, leadership and moral courage. In fact he calls him a hero.
What I want to know is did they torture this columnist to get him to say such ridiculous things?
QUOTE
When torture is the only option ...
DAVID GELERNTER
November 11, 2005
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-Ariz.) proposed legislation incorporating into U.S. law the Geneva Convention ban on mistreating prisoners. The bill, which bans cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, passed the Senate 90 to 9. To say it's got momentum is putting it mildly.
But President Bush says he will veto the bill unless the CIA is exempted. Vice President Cheney has led the administration's campaign for the exemption. It's a hard sell; pro-torture politicians are scarce around Washington.
But of course you don't have to be "pro-torture" to oppose the McCain amendment. That naive misunderstanding summarizes the threat posed by this good-hearted, wrong-headed legislation. Those who oppose the amendment don't think the CIA should be permitted to use torture or other rough interrogation techniques. What they think is that sometimes the CIA should be required to squeeze the truth out of prisoners. Not because the CIA wants to torture people, but because it may be the only option we've got.
McCain's amendment is a trap for the lazy minded. Whenever a position seems so obvious that you don't even have to stop and think — stop and think.
Americans will never be permitted to use torture as punishment or vengeance. A criminal might deserve to be tortured; we refuse to torture him nonetheless, because to do so degrades us. But if torturing a terrorist (or carrying out some other form of rough interrogation) is the only way to save innocent lives, we have no right to refuse.
Most human beings recoil from committing torture. But sometimes we have an obligation to do hard things for the good of the nation — as no man knows better than McCain, who fought for his country and suffered long years as a brutally mistreated POW.
But his amendment lets the CIA do what he refused to do. It lets the CIA take an easy out.
In 1982, the philosopher Michael Levin published an article challenging the popular view that the U.S. must never engage in torture. "Someday soon," he concluded, "a terrorist will threaten tens of thousands of lives, and torture will be the only way to save them."
Suppose a nuclear bomb is primed to detonate somewhere in Manhattan, Levin wrote, and we've captured a terrorist who knows where the bomb is. But he won't talk. By forbidding torture, you inflict death on many thousands of innocents and endless suffering on the families of those who died at a terrorist's whim — and who might have lived had government done its ugly duty.
Those who defend McCain's amendment and attack Cheney and Bush feel a nice warm glow, as if they're basking in virtue, as in a hot tub, sipping Cabernet. But there is no virtue in joining a crowd, even if the crowd is right — and this one isn't.
McCain is a bona fide hero. But there's nothing courageous in standing firm with virtually the whole cultural leadership of this nation and the Western world, under any circumstances. It's too easy. To take a principled stand that you know will make people loathe and vilify you — that's what integrity, leadership and moral courage are all about. This time Cheney is the hero. McCain is taking the easy out.
Of course, saying "never" instead of "almost never" is a trap that well-meaning, lazy people have been falling into for a long time. In a celebrated passage in "The Brothers Karamazov," Dostoevsky tells a story designed to end that error forever — about a rich, powerful general and an 8-year-old boy serf who "hurt the paw of the general's favorite hound." The next morning, the child is stripped naked. The general looses his pack of wolfhounds on the boy, who is torn to pieces before his mother's eyes.
What should be done to the general? The gentle monk Alyosha, who can't stand the thought of bloodshed, answers, "Shoot him." He has decided that capital punishment should be "almost never," not "never."
In the end, this column is indeed about willful, cheerful torture — committed not by the CIA but by terrorists whose bombs leave bewildered innocents maimed, blinded or wracked with pain for the rest of their lives, or ripped to pieces. Why? The torturers (or their friends) only smirk and tell us that "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Great").
We do not torture such terrorists to punish them. God forbid we should do as they do. But if torture (used with repugnance) can stop even one such atrocity, our duty is hideously plain.
I am posting this here so that we can make sure to send this "columnist" an email when the torture issue is fully on display for everyone to see.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...omment-opinions
DAVID GELERNTER
November 11, 2005
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-Ariz.) proposed legislation incorporating into U.S. law the Geneva Convention ban on mistreating prisoners. The bill, which bans cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment, passed the Senate 90 to 9. To say it's got momentum is putting it mildly.
But President Bush says he will veto the bill unless the CIA is exempted. Vice President Cheney has led the administration's campaign for the exemption. It's a hard sell; pro-torture politicians are scarce around Washington.
But of course you don't have to be "pro-torture" to oppose the McCain amendment. That naive misunderstanding summarizes the threat posed by this good-hearted, wrong-headed legislation. Those who oppose the amendment don't think the CIA should be permitted to use torture or other rough interrogation techniques. What they think is that sometimes the CIA should be required to squeeze the truth out of prisoners. Not because the CIA wants to torture people, but because it may be the only option we've got.
McCain's amendment is a trap for the lazy minded. Whenever a position seems so obvious that you don't even have to stop and think — stop and think.
Americans will never be permitted to use torture as punishment or vengeance. A criminal might deserve to be tortured; we refuse to torture him nonetheless, because to do so degrades us. But if torturing a terrorist (or carrying out some other form of rough interrogation) is the only way to save innocent lives, we have no right to refuse.
Most human beings recoil from committing torture. But sometimes we have an obligation to do hard things for the good of the nation — as no man knows better than McCain, who fought for his country and suffered long years as a brutally mistreated POW.
But his amendment lets the CIA do what he refused to do. It lets the CIA take an easy out.
In 1982, the philosopher Michael Levin published an article challenging the popular view that the U.S. must never engage in torture. "Someday soon," he concluded, "a terrorist will threaten tens of thousands of lives, and torture will be the only way to save them."
Suppose a nuclear bomb is primed to detonate somewhere in Manhattan, Levin wrote, and we've captured a terrorist who knows where the bomb is. But he won't talk. By forbidding torture, you inflict death on many thousands of innocents and endless suffering on the families of those who died at a terrorist's whim — and who might have lived had government done its ugly duty.
Those who defend McCain's amendment and attack Cheney and Bush feel a nice warm glow, as if they're basking in virtue, as in a hot tub, sipping Cabernet. But there is no virtue in joining a crowd, even if the crowd is right — and this one isn't.
McCain is a bona fide hero. But there's nothing courageous in standing firm with virtually the whole cultural leadership of this nation and the Western world, under any circumstances. It's too easy. To take a principled stand that you know will make people loathe and vilify you — that's what integrity, leadership and moral courage are all about. This time Cheney is the hero. McCain is taking the easy out.
Of course, saying "never" instead of "almost never" is a trap that well-meaning, lazy people have been falling into for a long time. In a celebrated passage in "The Brothers Karamazov," Dostoevsky tells a story designed to end that error forever — about a rich, powerful general and an 8-year-old boy serf who "hurt the paw of the general's favorite hound." The next morning, the child is stripped naked. The general looses his pack of wolfhounds on the boy, who is torn to pieces before his mother's eyes.
What should be done to the general? The gentle monk Alyosha, who can't stand the thought of bloodshed, answers, "Shoot him." He has decided that capital punishment should be "almost never," not "never."
In the end, this column is indeed about willful, cheerful torture — committed not by the CIA but by terrorists whose bombs leave bewildered innocents maimed, blinded or wracked with pain for the rest of their lives, or ripped to pieces. Why? The torturers (or their friends) only smirk and tell us that "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Great").
We do not torture such terrorists to punish them. God forbid we should do as they do. But if torture (used with repugnance) can stop even one such atrocity, our duty is hideously plain.
I am posting this here so that we can make sure to send this "columnist" an email when the torture issue is fully on display for everyone to see.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commen...omment-opinions
I've got to brag a little here. One of my letters to the editor made my local paper. Here is the online column where assorted reader letters appear including one by "yours truly" I didn't even know it was there until I got an email from someone I used to work with. My letter is the one called "This deliberate ruse"
Monday, November 14, 2005
The CIA's secret prisons and 'ongoing disgrace of our nation'
The 'disgrace of our nation'
And the scandals don't stop. Now, reportedly, the CIA has a system of secret prisons, so-called "black sites" where terrorist suspects are held and subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques," which are prohibited by U.N. convention and U.S. military law. At various times in the past four years, these secret facilities have been in eight countries, and apparently are now in former Soviet bloc countries. More than 100 "suspected" terrorists have disappeared into this secret system.
After the scandals of Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and the flap over extraordinary rendition, you would think the current administration would start thinking more clearly about such terms as "human rights," "innocent until proven guilty" and "the right to legal representation." It used to be that the U.S. was considered the beacon of democracy to the rest of the world. Now, with people "disappearing" into "black sites," our government should be equated with other third-rate dictatorships.
Shame on the Bush administration for dragging our country down into the slime. Shame on The Courier-Journal for burying this latest scandal on page 7. Shame on Rep. Anne Northup for rubber-stamping, without question, everything this administration puts forth. Shame on our senior senator, Mitch McConnell, for being more concerned about Republican domination and business interests than what is best for the American people. And shame on us, the American people, for not picking up a pen or the phone to protest the ongoing disgrace of our nation.
CAROLINE CHAN
Louisville 40243
'What sad, sad times'
Has there ever been a time in our country's history when a sitting president must defend his administration against charges and questions about the use of torture, while at the same time, his vice president lobbies for the use of it? What sad, sad, times we live in.
HUGH McCARTY
Louisville 40214
'This deliberate ruse'
I am appalled that the Bush administration would use our understandable fear of terrorists as leverage to help sell the ridiculous idea that, in order for President Bush to protect us, Congress must exempt the CIA from the McCain amendment requirement to treat detainees humanely.
The interrogation methods that we historically called "torture" are now called "extreme interrogation methods" by this administration. This deliberate ruse enables Bush to say; "We don't torture." But twisting the language to narrowly define torture can't hide well-documented cases where torture was clearly used by us -- torture that sometimes resulted in the death of the detainee.
So far, we have no evidence where torture provided us with any reliable intelligence. But we do have evidence, like the evidence from the case of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, where torture yielded bogus information.
I urge Kentuckians to go to congress.org and let Congress know that we will not allow a specious argument that plays on our fears to fool us into supporting something that distorts the laws and values our country has championed for over 200 years. While the majority of Congress currently supports the McCain amendment, they need our help to resist the extreme White House pressure to change it.
PATTY MORLAN
Louisville 40205
'Subvert the laws'
The "secret" detention centers that our country is using to harbor terrorists are interesting news. On the one hand, we are being told that the building of democracies, especially in the Mideast, is essential to our freedom. On the other hand, we are using secret prisons abroad to subvert the laws of our own democracy, which forbids such a system.
I can only assume that we want a certain percentage of the world to be undemocratic so that we can be certain to have places that will allow us to lock up people undemocratically in order to promote democracy.
REBECCA BEGLEY
Louisville 40206
Former POW supports McCain
During World War II, America, Germany, France and England all joined the Geneva Convention relative to treatment of prisoners of war. Russia was not a member, and Hitler thought the Geneva Conventions should not exist.
Sen. John McCain was a POW in Vietnam for five and a half years. In January 1943, I was shot down over Germany and was a POW for two years and three months. I was never especially abused by the Germans, but they nearly starved us to death.
It has been proven by our government that torturing POWs will not produce reliable information for the detaining powers. The United States is a member of the Geneva Convention, and it is our honor to have signed our pledge that we will not torture POWs, no matter who we are fighting. We know that such actions will be of no benefit to our intelligence services, and we do not believe in mistreatment of human beings.
McCain voted to pass a law prohibiting torture camps and torture of prisoners. However, Vice President Dick Cheney opposes it.
Let's support McCain in his effort to uphold the Geneva Conventions and bring back respect for U.S. military forces. The U.S. -- the greatest and strongest military force in the world -- should not allow Cheney or anyone else to lower our standards of POW treatment to that of rogue nations.
GLEN WADE
Hopkinsville, Ky. 42240
Where are those values?
I can't believe that our society has descended to the point that we even have to debate the merits of not torturing human beings. I can't believe that we're even considering abandoning our American ideals in the name of some possible, short-term gain that is of dubious value.
All I heard during the last election cycle was how voters were willing to vote against their own economic interests due to "values." Where are those vaunted values now? . . . Is it a moral value to re-name torture so it sounds less odious? It's not torture. We just placed that suspected terrorist in a stress position for the last six hours, and we deprived him of sleep for the last three days, and soon we'll ship him off to a country that's known to sanction aggressive interrogation techniques, but not torture, and if they do torture, what affair is that of ours? We don't interfere with what goes on in a sovereign nation, unless it's Iraq.
. . . Torture, and torture-lite, are morally wrong. We shouldn't be condoning either.
CRAIG MacINNES
Jeffersonville, Ind. 47130
I didn't even know it was there until I got an email from someone I used to work with. My letter is the one called "This deliberate ruse"Monday, November 14, 2005
The CIA's secret prisons and 'ongoing disgrace of our nation'
The 'disgrace of our nation'
And the scandals don't stop. Now, reportedly, the CIA has a system of secret prisons, so-called "black sites" where terrorist suspects are held and subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques," which are prohibited by U.N. convention and U.S. military law. At various times in the past four years, these secret facilities have been in eight countries, and apparently are now in former Soviet bloc countries. More than 100 "suspected" terrorists have disappeared into this secret system.
After the scandals of Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and the flap over extraordinary rendition, you would think the current administration would start thinking more clearly about such terms as "human rights," "innocent until proven guilty" and "the right to legal representation." It used to be that the U.S. was considered the beacon of democracy to the rest of the world. Now, with people "disappearing" into "black sites," our government should be equated with other third-rate dictatorships.
Shame on the Bush administration for dragging our country down into the slime. Shame on The Courier-Journal for burying this latest scandal on page 7. Shame on Rep. Anne Northup for rubber-stamping, without question, everything this administration puts forth. Shame on our senior senator, Mitch McConnell, for being more concerned about Republican domination and business interests than what is best for the American people. And shame on us, the American people, for not picking up a pen or the phone to protest the ongoing disgrace of our nation.
CAROLINE CHAN
Louisville 40243
'What sad, sad times'
Has there ever been a time in our country's history when a sitting president must defend his administration against charges and questions about the use of torture, while at the same time, his vice president lobbies for the use of it? What sad, sad, times we live in.
HUGH McCARTY
Louisville 40214
'This deliberate ruse'
I am appalled that the Bush administration would use our understandable fear of terrorists as leverage to help sell the ridiculous idea that, in order for President Bush to protect us, Congress must exempt the CIA from the McCain amendment requirement to treat detainees humanely.
The interrogation methods that we historically called "torture" are now called "extreme interrogation methods" by this administration. This deliberate ruse enables Bush to say; "We don't torture." But twisting the language to narrowly define torture can't hide well-documented cases where torture was clearly used by us -- torture that sometimes resulted in the death of the detainee.
So far, we have no evidence where torture provided us with any reliable intelligence. But we do have evidence, like the evidence from the case of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, where torture yielded bogus information.
I urge Kentuckians to go to congress.org and let Congress know that we will not allow a specious argument that plays on our fears to fool us into supporting something that distorts the laws and values our country has championed for over 200 years. While the majority of Congress currently supports the McCain amendment, they need our help to resist the extreme White House pressure to change it.
PATTY MORLAN
Louisville 40205
'Subvert the laws'
The "secret" detention centers that our country is using to harbor terrorists are interesting news. On the one hand, we are being told that the building of democracies, especially in the Mideast, is essential to our freedom. On the other hand, we are using secret prisons abroad to subvert the laws of our own democracy, which forbids such a system.
I can only assume that we want a certain percentage of the world to be undemocratic so that we can be certain to have places that will allow us to lock up people undemocratically in order to promote democracy.
REBECCA BEGLEY
Louisville 40206
Former POW supports McCain
During World War II, America, Germany, France and England all joined the Geneva Convention relative to treatment of prisoners of war. Russia was not a member, and Hitler thought the Geneva Conventions should not exist.
Sen. John McCain was a POW in Vietnam for five and a half years. In January 1943, I was shot down over Germany and was a POW for two years and three months. I was never especially abused by the Germans, but they nearly starved us to death.
It has been proven by our government that torturing POWs will not produce reliable information for the detaining powers. The United States is a member of the Geneva Convention, and it is our honor to have signed our pledge that we will not torture POWs, no matter who we are fighting. We know that such actions will be of no benefit to our intelligence services, and we do not believe in mistreatment of human beings.
McCain voted to pass a law prohibiting torture camps and torture of prisoners. However, Vice President Dick Cheney opposes it.
Let's support McCain in his effort to uphold the Geneva Conventions and bring back respect for U.S. military forces. The U.S. -- the greatest and strongest military force in the world -- should not allow Cheney or anyone else to lower our standards of POW treatment to that of rogue nations.
GLEN WADE
Hopkinsville, Ky. 42240
Where are those values?
I can't believe that our society has descended to the point that we even have to debate the merits of not torturing human beings. I can't believe that we're even considering abandoning our American ideals in the name of some possible, short-term gain that is of dubious value.
All I heard during the last election cycle was how voters were willing to vote against their own economic interests due to "values." Where are those vaunted values now? . . . Is it a moral value to re-name torture so it sounds less odious? It's not torture. We just placed that suspected terrorist in a stress position for the last six hours, and we deprived him of sleep for the last three days, and soon we'll ship him off to a country that's known to sanction aggressive interrogation techniques, but not torture, and if they do torture, what affair is that of ours? We don't interfere with what goes on in a sovereign nation, unless it's Iraq.
. . . Torture, and torture-lite, are morally wrong. We shouldn't be condoning either.
CRAIG MacINNES
Jeffersonville, Ind. 47130
Congrats! 
Congrats on getting your letter published. I am also heartened to see that so many others also oppose torture.
Congrats!!
Congratulations again. Hope you are keeping a scrapbook!
Wonderful ! Keep up the great work !
Thank you for letting us know. Hopefully it will encourage others to speak up.
lenal
lenal
Patty,
Congratulations for getting your letter published, certainly.
More importantly, thank you for your commitment to the stop-torture issue. You are an inspiration to us all. You have always done a lot for this board, but in years ahead, I believe you will be able to look back and see this as an area in which you have made a significant difference.
-Peggy
Congratulations for getting your letter published, certainly.
More importantly, thank you for your commitment to the stop-torture issue. You are an inspiration to us all. You have always done a lot for this board, but in years ahead, I believe you will be able to look back and see this as an area in which you have made a significant difference.
-Peggy
QUOTE(lenal @ Nov 14 2005, 10:00 PM)
Thank you for letting us know. Hopefully it will encourage others to speak up.
lenal
lenal
That is the real reason why I posted this thread, lenal. Thanks for coming right out and saying it.
I hope these letters are just the first ones in a long line of letters that will be posted here on this topic.
Congratulations Patty !
Obviously you come from a part of the country where they do know what values are !
Your letter was exceptional, but that really doesn't surprise me .
Obviously you come from a part of the country where they do know what values are !
Your letter was exceptional, but that really doesn't surprise me .
QUOTE(Pegatha @ Nov 14 2005, 10:02 PM)
Patty,
Congratulations for getting your letter published, certainly.
More importantly, thank you for your commitment to the stop-torture issue. You are an inspiration to us all. You have always done a lot for this board, but in years ahead, I believe you will be able to look back and see this as an area in which you have made a significant difference.
-Peggy
Congratulations for getting your letter published, certainly.
More importantly, thank you for your commitment to the stop-torture issue. You are an inspiration to us all. You have always done a lot for this board, but in years ahead, I believe you will be able to look back and see this as an area in which you have made a significant difference.
-Peggy
Thanks, Peggy. Your comments mean a lot to me.
This issue is just so important to the values of our country. George Bush is a temporary resident in that White House but what he has done with the torture of prisoners will live on long after he leaves the White House. It will take years before we can even come close to repairing the damage that he has done, both here and abroad.
It is unthinkable that in 2005 we would actually need to have a discussion about whether we should engage in the torture of prisoners. But sadly, because of this adminstration, we actually have people who believe that this is ok. We can not allow those beliefs to go unchallenged or our country will collapse from within.
This issue goes way beyond politics. We are beginning to see people of all Parties speak out on this issue. I only hope that America is listening.
Way to go!
NRNS Congratulations. Be ready for them coming after you. 
Which would you like - water-boarding or being piled up in a naked body pyramid? Or perhaps the naked with dog-leash?
Which would you like - water-boarding or being piled up in a naked body pyramid? Or perhaps the naked with dog-leash?
QUOTE(lazyboy @ Nov 15 2005, 12:04 AM)
NRNS Congratulations. Be ready for them coming after you.
Which would you like - water-boarding or being piled up in a naked body pyramid? Or perhaps the naked with dog-leash?
Which would you like - water-boarding or being piled up in a naked body pyramid? Or perhaps the naked with dog-leash?
I didn't think I could laugh about these particular torture methods but somehow you managed to get me laughing.
Seriously, I think for me the worst torture of all is to see Bush, Cheney, Yoo, Addington and the rest of their henchman to get away with this.
QUOTE(rox63 @ Nov 14 2005, 05:19 PM)
Congrats on getting your letter published. I am also heartened to see that so many others also oppose torture.
NRNS, Your horn deserves to be tooted!
I'm glad your local paper has seen the passion you have set into words, the words we have come to appreciate on a daily basis. And Rox, I think the only two people in America who don't oppose torture are The President and His Pet Chimp.
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 14 2005, 07:20 PM)
Thanks, Peggy. Your comments mean a lot to me.
This issue is just so important to the values of our country. George Bush is a temporary resident in that White House but what he has done with the torture of prisoners will live on long after he leaves the White House. It will take years before we can even come close to repairing the damage that he has done, both here and abroad.
It is unthinkable that in 2005 we would actually need to have a discussion about whether we should engage in the torture of prisoners. But sadly, because of this adminstration, we actually have people who believe that this is ok. We can not allow those beliefs to go unchallenged or our country will collapse from within.
This issue goes way beyond politics. We are beginning to see people of all Parties speak out on this issue. I only hope that America is listening.
This issue is just so important to the values of our country. George Bush is a temporary resident in that White House but what he has done with the torture of prisoners will live on long after he leaves the White House. It will take years before we can even come close to repairing the damage that he has done, both here and abroad.
It is unthinkable that in 2005 we would actually need to have a discussion about whether we should engage in the torture of prisoners. But sadly, because of this adminstration, we actually have people who believe that this is ok. We can not allow those beliefs to go unchallenged or our country will collapse from within.
This issue goes way beyond politics. We are beginning to see people of all Parties speak out on this issue. I only hope that America is listening.
It looks like America is listening, the open question is whether the politicians are. Maybe we should suggest that prior to approving any methods they each need to be subjected to them, preferably by someone who hates their guts. Sure, there might be a few accidental deaths, but collateral damage is inevitable.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.