Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Biden seeks to articulate Iraq strategy;
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Foreign Policy and National Defense > Foreign Policy & National Defense Issues Archive
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
real_democrat
Well I was wrong about the Democratic Leadership. They have remained resolute in the desire to continue the war....

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Biden_delive..._Iraq_1121.html
QUOTE
Biden's speech, delivered to the Council of Foreign Relations, sketched out a strategy that included (1) forging better alliances between Iraqi factions (the senator said he thought the current constitution had the power to divide the country) (2) strengthen the Iraqi government and its reconstruction efforts and (3) accelerate the transfer of the country's security to Iraqis.

Each of Biden's goals have already been embraced and trumpeted by the Bush Administration. Whether his specific vision -- which is illustrated in great detail -- provides a clearer articulation of the Democrats' Iraq position remains to be seen.


These are the goals the Democrats always had in mind, nothing is changed except for the constant whining they were misled into war. For people misled into going someplace, they don't seem anxious to leave.

Could it be that they are lying to us about not wanting to be there? People who are lead around by the likes of Richard Holbrooke, are none to likely to oppose the war, now are they?

Certainly it can't be they want to be cautious, Johm Murtha has trashed that argument.
Beamer
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 02:56 PM)
Well I was wrong about the Democratic Leadership. They have remained resolute in the desire to continue the war....

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Biden_delive..._Iraq_1121.html
These are the goals the Democrats always had in mind, nothing is changed except for the constant whining they were misled into war. For people misled into going someplace, they don't seem anxious to leave.

Could it be that they are lying to us about not wanting to be there? People who are lead around by the likes of Richard Holbrooke, are none to likely to oppose the war, now are they?

Certainly it can't be they want to be cautious, Johm Murtha has trashed that argument.
*



I posted some stuff in the "What are the Democrats waiting for" thread from the Center for American Progress. I had read that Murtha's plan is similar to the plan they offered in September. What's your take on that? If so, although I am grateful for Murtha's announcement and think he's a stand-up guy, I'm a little suspicious of anything CAP would put out.
tomhye
As usual you've posted a quote saying he wants to accelerate our getting out and claim it's proof he wants war. Such integrity!
Beamer
I had my "Democrats" topic moved to the Afghanistan/Iraq topic area.
no retreat, no surrender
This thread reminds me of another thread I started earlier today.

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...topic=43024&hl=
tomhye
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 21 2005, 04:37 PM)
This thread reminds me of another thread I started earlier today.

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...topic=43024&hl=
*


Should there be a Thread Anti Proliferation Treaty?
TheRestofUs
So beamer and RD. You think it would be smart to not try and keep Iraq from blowing up into Civil War, and not try and be wise as possible in extricating ourselves? If so, you are not in line with Murtha's Proposal in which even he says it should be done carefully, and over six months. Kerry is merely adding that it should be done systematically with benchmarks, and may take 15 months.

Bush is saying "as long as it takes", while NO PROGRESS MUST BE DEMANDED!

You are in effect demanding we follow the phony Republican Resolution for immediate pullout.
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(tomhye @ Nov 21 2005, 07:41 PM)
Should there be a Thread Anti Proliferation Treaty?
*

blink.gif Sorry, I don't know what you mean by this?
tomhye
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 21 2005, 04:46 PM)
blink.gif Sorry, I don't know what you mean by this?
*



Today people seem to be bingeing on posting duplicate threads.
real_democrat
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Nov 21 2005, 06:08 PM)
I posted some stuff in the "What are the Democrats waiting for" thread from the Center for American Progress.  I had read that Murtha's plan is similar to the plan they offered in September.  What's your take on that?  If so, although I am grateful for Murtha's announcement and think he's a stand-up guy, I'm a little suspicious of anything CAP would put out.
*

I know, CAP and PNAC differ very little. Two organizations with "American" in their name, but talk so little about America. Go figure.

The CAP plan....
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/apps/...0299FB}¬oc=1

QUOTE
A steady redeployment of U.S. forces from Iraq will strengthen our country’s ability to fight the violent extremists around the world who pose the greatest danger to the American people. Our plan calls for smaller and more nimble units working closely with Iraqi forces in 2006 and 2007, and will put the United States in a better position to attack terrorist enemies in Iraq. With troops remaining in the region, the United States will be able to strike at terrorist enemy camps. With more forces meeting the terrorist threats in Afghanistan, Asia, and Africa, the United States will be implementing a threat-based strategy


And they have qualifiers, as they believe we can do more in Iraq...

QUOTE
The size of Strategic Redeployment’s proposed U.S. troop redeployments is based on the U.S. military’s plans for training and standing up Iraqi forces. Currently, an estimated 210,000 Iraqi security forces exist and are at varying levels of readiness. U.S. military commanders plan to have 270,000 Iraqi forces in the field by the summer of 2006 and 325,000 forces operating by the summer of 2007.

President Bush has repeatedly stated that as the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down. The Iraqis are standing up in increasing numbers. We have developed a system to help Iraqi forces to obtain the skills and weapons needed to defend the Iraqi government. Now we need to do more to increase motivation in the Iraqi ranks – and redeployment will send a signal that we will continue to support the Iraqi forces, but we won’t be used as a crutch.

In addition, some form of drawdown of U.S. troops is necessary to preserve the all-volunteer Army. Extended deployments of U.S. ground troops in Iraq have severely weakened our capacity to handle other national security threats, and the open-ended commitment of troops in Iraq has made it difficult for the Army to meet its recruitment targets.


Murtha's plan
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_...051117iraq.html
QUOTE
My plan calls:

To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.
To create a quick reaction force in the region.
To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq

This war needs to be personalized.  As I said before I have visited with the severely wounded of this war.  They are suffering.

Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our OBLIGATION to speak out for them.  That’s why I am speaking out.

Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily.  IT IS TIME TO BRING THEM HOME.


Aside from the idea of a re-deployment, Murtha wants the troops home faster and has thier well being in mind, where CAP seems more concerned with being ready to wage the next war, perhaps in Iran or Syria.

And Murtha's assertain that "the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily" is in sharp contrast to all the difficult goals in CAPs plan, which essentially changes nothing, except they have tied withdrawal to the goals they have always wanted to achieve. It really is just a game to them, in effect they are still pro-war. For Murtha it is personal. Murtha wants more soldiers to come home whole, while PNAC wants to make sure we have make the Military more appealling in case we need start new wars.

Cap on the troops...
QUOTE
...open-ended commitment of troops in Iraq has made it difficult for the Army to meet its recruitment targets


Murtha...
QUOTE
As I said before I have visited with the severely wounded of this war.  They are suffering.Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our OBLIGATION to speak out for them
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(tomhye @ Nov 21 2005, 07:49 PM)
Today people seem to be bingeing on posting duplicate threads.
*


tomhye, I think you may have misunderstood what I said.

My link to the thread that I posted was not a thread that agreed with this thread. The other thread reminded me of this thread for very different reasons.

You might want to view the link that I posted because the link goes to a thread entitled "how not to persuade people".

I think that there were words of wisdom in that earlier thread that should make a thread like this, that seems to pop up every day, sink to the bottom of the online cafe rather than generate numerous comments that keep it going. smile.gif
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 04:51 PM)
I know, CAP and PNAC differ very little. Two organizations with  "American" in their name, but talk so little about America. Go figure.

The CAP plan....
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/apps/...0299FB}¬oc=1
And they have qualifiers, as they believe we can do more in Iraq...
Murtha's plan
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/pa12_...051117iraq.html
Aside from the idea of a re-deployment, Murtha wants the troops home faster and has thier well being in mind, where CAP seems more concerned with being ready to wage the next war, perhaps in Iran or Syria.

And Murtha's assertain that "the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily" is in sharp contrast to all the difficult goals in CAPs plan, which essentially changes nothing, except they have tied withdrawal to the goals they have always wanted to achieve. It really is just a game to them, in effect they are still pro-war. For Murtha it is personal. Murtha wants more soldiers to come home whole, while PNAC wants to make sure we have make the Military more appealling in case we need start new wars.

Cap on the troops...
Murtha...
*

And you advocate what? Disbanding the military? Withdraw from a multilateral approach to world terrorism, and American Leadership? Ignore Rogue States, and Failed States? Become isolationist?
tomhye
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 21 2005, 04:57 PM)
tomhye, I think you may have misunderstood what I said.

My link to the thread that I posted was not a thread that agreed with this thread. The other thread reminded me of this thread for very different reasons.

You might want to view the link that I posted because the link goes to a thread entitled "how not to persuade people".

I think that there were words of wisdom in that earlier thread that should make a thread like this, that seems to pop up every day, sink to the bottom of the online cafe rather than generate numerous comments that keep it going. smile.gif
*


Sorry, I didn't click on the link, I thought you were referring to the Biden statement which I've seen elsewhere today.

I didn't think you agreed with this thread, it's Democrat bashing at its most blatent, one of the persons two favorite themes.

How not to persuade people is a great thread, the blog quotes are really worthwhile1
no retreat, no surrender
This is another thing that this thread topic reminds me of --

tomhye
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 21 2005, 05:07 PM)
This is another thing that this thread topic reminds me of --


*


Sorry, all I get is a ? and clicking on it doesn't do anything.
real_democrat
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Nov 21 2005, 06:44 PM)
So beamer and RD. You think it would be smart to not try and keep Iraq from blowing up into Civil War, and not try and be wise as possible in extricating ourselves? If so, you are not in line with Murtha's Proposal in which even he says it should be done carefully, and over six months. Kerry is merely adding that it should be done systematically with benchmarks, and may take 15 months.

Bush is saying "as long as it takes", while NO PROGRESS MUST BE DEMANDED!

You are in effect demanding we follow the phony Republican Resolution for immediate pullout. Good Plan, real smart.
*
Murtha's plan make more sense, he clearly states "we have done all we can do", and the care he wants to take is entirely driven by a desire to get our soldiers out of harms way. Dems like Kerry, Biden and Hillary are still focused on acheivements that differ very little from Bush's goals. Dressing up the pursuit of war goals as a withdrawal "done systematically with benchmarks" just won't cut it. Murtha's knows we can not achieve those things, and said so directly.

While Bush is saying "as long as it takes", Kerry says it "may take 15 monthes", but his benchmarks may very well require far more time to acheive. It is classic Kerry. He makes a statement that you really can't hang on him if he is wrong, if benchmarks are not met in fifteen monthes, he can blame the Republicans for dragging it out, if it takes less, he can claim credit.
Beamer
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 04:11 PM)
Murtha's plan make more sense, he clearly states "we have done all we can do", and the care he wants to take is entirely driven by a desire to get our soldiers out of harms way. Dems like Kerry, Biden and Hillary are still focused on acheivements that differ very little from Bush's goals. Dressing up the pursuit of war goals as a withdrawal "done systematically with benchmarks" just won't cut it. Murtha's knows we can not achieve those things, and said so directly.

While Bush is saying "as long as it takes", Kerry says it "may take 15 monthes", but his benchmarks may very well require far more time to acheive. It is classic Kerry. He makes a statement that you really can't hang on him if he is wrong, if  benchmarks are not met in fifteen monthes, he can blame the Republicans for dragging it out, if it takes less, he can claim credit.
*



This from the CAP website:

QUOTE
While Murtha calls for a more rapid timeline than the Center for American Progress, his proposals echo the themes of the Center's plan of redeployment from Iraq, entitled Strategic Redeployment. Congressmen Murtha recognizes the facts on the ground in Iraq.



Of course they would want to take credit for Murtha's popular plan. They're a very partisan organization.
graham4anything
QUOTE(tomhye @ Nov 21 2005, 06:41 PM)
Should there be a Thread Anti Proliferation Treaty?
*


roflmbo.gif roflmbo.gif


Of course, haven't seen the 55 republican senators do anything, and that one republican house lady who almost lost to Hackett had the audacity to call Murtha a coward.
What arses the republicans are
real_democrat
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Nov 21 2005, 07:01 PM)
And you advocate what? Disbanding the military? Withdraw from a multilateral approach to world terrorism, and American Leadership? Ignore Rogue States, and Failed States? Become isolationist?
*
Hmmm. None of those things have anything to do with this do they? You could start about 11 other topics on those things though.
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 05:11 PM)
Murtha's plan make more sense, he clearly states "we have done all we can do", and the care he wants to take is entirely driven by a desire to get our soldiers out of harms way. Dems like Kerry, Biden and Hillary are still focused on acheivements that differ very little from Bush's goals. Dressing up the pursuit of war goals as a withdrawal "done systematically with benchmarks" just won't cut it. Murtha's knows we can not achieve those things, and said so directly.

While Bush is saying "as long as it takes", Kerry says it "may take 15 monthes", but his benchmarks may very well require far more time to acheive. It is classic Kerry. He makes a statement that you really can't hang on him if he is wrong, if  benchmarks are not met in fifteen monthes, he can blame the Republicans for dragging it out, if it takes less, he can claim credit.
*

Wrong. Kerry is talking sense. Murtha's plan is admittedly not detailed but a broad statement of intent. Even he says it may take six months, and is flexable. His over the horizon approach, may mean re-entry if a Civil War breaks out. What then? I sympathize with his concern for the troops, but we have to get out so we don't have to go back in.
Indianhead
Beamer
Not a red herring at all. Biden gave a big Iraq speech today at the Council on Foreign Relations. He's a prominent Democrat, supposedly THE Democratic expert on foreign policy, and a likely candidate for president in 2008. It's good that we examine his views.


QUOTE
Turning the Corner in Iraq [Prepared Remarks]
Speaker:  Joseph R. Biden, Jr.
Member, U.S. Senate (D-DE)

November 21, 2005




Today, I want to talk to you about Iraq. I want to start by the addressing the question on the minds of most Americans: when will we bring our troops home?

Here is my conviction: in 2006, American troops will begin to leave Iraq in large numbers. By the end of the year, I believe we will have redeployed at least 50,000 troops. In 2007, a significant number of the remaining 100,000 American soldiers will follow.

But the real question is this: as Americans start to come home, will we leave Iraq with our fundamental security interests intact…or will we have traded a dictator for chaos?

By misrepresenting the facts…misunderstanding Iraq…and misleading the war…this Administration has brought us to the verge of a national security debacle.

As a result, many Americans have already concluded that we cannot salvage Iraq. We should bring all our forces home as soon as possible.

They include some of the most respected voices on military matters in this country, like Congressman Jack Murtha. They’re mindful of the terrible consequences from withdrawing. But even worse, in their judgment, would be to leave Americans to fight–and to die–in Iraq with no strategy for success.

I share their frustration. But I’m not there yet. I still believe we can preserve our fundamental security interests in Iraq as we begin to redeploy our forces.

That will require the administration not to stay the course, but to change course…and to do it now.

And though it may not seem like it, there is actually a broad consensus on what the administration must do.

Last week, 79 Democrats and Republicans in the Senate came together and said to the President: we need a plan for Iraq.

Level with us. Give us specific goals…and a timetable for achieving each one…so we know exactly where we are…and where we are going.

As I have been urging for some time, that will require as many changes at home as on the ground. The gap between the Administration’s rhetoric and the reality of Iraq has opened a huge credibility chasm with the American people.

The problem has been compounded by the President’s failure to explain in detail his strategy…and to report regularly on both the progress and the problems.

As David Brooks reminded us in the New York Times yesterday, “Franklin Roosevelt asked Americans to spread out maps before them and he described, step by step, what was going on in World War II, where the U.S. was winning and where it was losing. Why can’t today’s president do that? Why can’t he show that he is aware that his biggest problem is not in Iraq, it’s on the home front?”

I want to see the President regain the American people’s trust. It is vital to our young men and women in Iraq today—and to our security—that we get this right. George Bush is our President—and he will be there for another three years. I want him to succeed.

Leveling with the American people is essential, but it is not enough.

The President has to be realistic about the mission and forget his grandiose goals. Iraq will not become a model democracy anytime soon.

Instead, we need to refocus our mission on preserving America’s fundamental interests in Iraq.

There are two of them:

We must ensure Iraq does not become what it wasn’t before the war: a haven for terrorists.
And we must do what we can to prevent a full-blown civil war that turns into a regional war.
To accomplish that more limited mission…and to begin to redeploy our troops responsibly…we must make significant, measurable progress toward three goals over the next six months:

One, we must help forge a political settlement that gives all of Iraq’s major groups a stake in keeping the country together.
Two, we must strengthen the capabilities of Iraq’s government and revamp the reconstruction program to deliver real benefits.
Three, we must accelerate the training of Iraqi security forces and transfer control to them.
Let me discuss each goal, one at a time.

Political Solutions
First, we need to build a political consensus, starting with the Constitution, that gives the Kurds, Shi’a, and Sunnis a stake in keeping Iraq together. Iraq cannot be salvaged by military might alone.

Last month, the Constitution passed overwhelmingly. But the vast majority of Sunni Arabs voted “no.” Unless changes are made by next spring, it will become a document that divides rather than unites Iraq.

All sides must compromise. Sunnis must accept the fact that they no longer rule Iraq. But unless Shiites and Kurds give them a stake in the new order, they will continue to resist it.

If the situation devolves into a full-blown civil war, all the king’s horses and all the king’s men won’t be able to put Iraq back together again.

Does anyone here support using American troops to fight a civil war against the Sunni on behalf of the Kurds and Shiites? I don’t–and I doubt many American would. But if we fail to forge a political consensus soon, that is what our troops will be dragged into.

The Bush Administration was AWOL until the arrival of Ambassador Khalilzad this summer. We let the Iraqis fend for themselves in writing a Constitution. In our absence, no headway was made.

We can’t make those mistakes again. We need to be fully engaged. Next month, there is an election for the National Assembly, and I expect Sunnis to turn out in large numbers.

After the elections, we must turn our attention immediately to encouraging the Kurds and Shi’a to make genuine compromises.

Our Ambassador can’t be the only one in the room cajoling Iraqis. We need a regional strategy that persuades Iraq’s neighbors to wield their influence with the Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds for political compromise. They will do it, because no one other than the terrorists has an interest in Iraq descending into civil war.

The major powers also have a stake. Europe has un-integrated Muslim populations that are vulnerable to Middle East extremism. India and China need stable oil supplies.

Our Allies must get over bruised feelings and help forge a political consensus. We must get over our reluctance to fully involve them.

We should form a Contact Group that becomes Iraq’s primary international interlocutor. That would take some of the burden off of us…and maximize the pressure on Iraq’s main groups to compromise.

I’ve called for a regional strategy and an international Contact Group repeatedly. So have three former Republican Secretaries of State–Shultz, Kissinger, and Powell. It’s what the Clinton Administration did in the Balkans. It’s what this Administration did in Afghanistan. Organized, sustained international engagement can make all the difference.

But it will only happen if America leads.

Ministries That Work/A Reconstruction Plan
Second, we need government ministries that work and provide basic services, and we need to re-do the reconstruction program to deliver real benefits.

Right now, Iraq’s ministries are barely functional. They make FEMA look like the model of efficiency.

The Bush Administration belatedly has developed plans to build up the government’s capacity. But there aren’t enough civilian experts with the right skills to do the job.

We need a civilian commitment in Iraq equal to our military one. I recommend the President and Secretary of State consider ordering staff to Baghdad–- if there are shortages.

Just as military personnel are required to go to Iraq, why shouldn’t the same apply to the foreign service? The dedication and courage of the foreign service officers I’ve met on my five trips to Iraq is extraordinary. They will take the toughest assignments if we ask them.

This should not be their burden alone. Earlier this year, Prime Minister Blair proposed individual countries be partnered with ministries. It’s a good idea. But it got a lukewarm reception. We should revive it.

Our military commanders tell me: we can’t defeat the insurgency unless we have a reconstruction program that makes a difference to ordinary Iraqis. Congress gave the Administration $20 billion for reconstruction. There is far too little to show for it.

Raw sewage is in too many streets. Lights are on less than half the day. The water isn’t safe to drink in too many homes.

Unemployment rates are around 40 percent. If 40 percent of Iraqis have no job and no hope, the insurgency will always find fresh recruits.

We were told before the war, oil would pay for reconstruction. Two-and-a-half years after Saddam’s statue fell, Iraq still is not exporting what it did before the war. They are 700,000 barrels per day below target. That is roughly $15 billion in lost revenues a year.

This President has the only oil company in the world losing money.

Projects have been delayed or never started. Now, the money is nearly gone, and the needs are still great. The President has yet to explain how he will fill the gap.

Of the $13.5 billion in non-American aid pledged at the Madrid conference two years ago, only $3 billion has been delivered, and even less spent.

The administration is creating Provincial Reconstruction Teams, modeled on the civil-military effort in Afghanistan. They will focus on getting local governments to deliver services. It’s a good idea, but it’s long overdue–and it’s not enough.

We should step up our recruiting of Allied civilian experts for the reconstruction teams.

I would redirect our spending to Iraqi contractors and away from expensive multinationals. Iraqis don’t have to add a line item worth 40 percent of the value of a contract for security. I’m glad to save American taxpayers money.

And we need to get countries that have already pledged economic assistance to actually deliver it—and pledge more.

It’s time for another Jim Baker mission. The President should ask him to convene a conference with our Gulf allies. These countries have seen huge windfall oil profits, from our pocket books. We’ve gone to war twice in the past decade to protect them and preserve security. It is past time that they step up–and give back.

Building Security Forces
The third goal is to build Iraqi security forces that can provide law and order in neighborhoods, defeat insurgents, and isolate and eliminate foreign jihadists over time.

The administration tread water on training for two years. Not until the arrival of General David Patreaus in June 2004, did we start a training program worthy of its name.

Back in Washington, all we have heard from this Administration is misleading number, after number.

In February 2004, Secretary Rumsfeld announced there were over 210,000 Iraqi security forces. He called it “an amazing accomplishment.” Seven months later he said there were 95,000. Now we’re supposedly back over 210,000 trained security forces.

When folks in Delaware hear numbers like that they ask me: why do we have 160,000 American troops in Iraq then?

What we need to know—and what the Administration has refused to tell us until recently—is how many Iraqis can operate without us, or in the lead with U.S. backing?

We’re finally starting to get answers. In September, General Casey said that, two and half years into the training program, one battalion—less than 1,000 troops—can operate independently. Another 40 or so can lead counter-insurgency operations with American support.

And there are real concerns that the security forces have more loyalty to political parties than to the Iraqi government…that militia members dominate certain units…and that others have been infiltrated by insurgent informants.

General Patreaus overhauled the training program. The result is much greater professionalism.

But training takes time. And just as it was getting on track, the administration reassigned General Patreaus back home. That was a mistake.

The President must tell Congress the schedule for getting Army battalions, regular police, and special forces to the point they can act on their own…or in the lead with American support.

We also need to accelerate our training efforts, but not at the expense of quality.

We should urge Iraq to accept offers from France, Egypt and other countries to train troops and police–especially at the officer level—including outside Iraq

If embedding more Americans with more Iraqi units would do the job, do it.

We should devote whatever resources are necessary to develop the capacity of Iraq’s security ministries. Even the most capable troops will not make a difference if they cannot be supplied, sustained and directed.

And we must focus our efforts on the police, who are lagging behind. Establishing law and order through a competent police force is as important for Iraqis, as defeating insurgents is for us.

Dealing with the Insurgency
That leads me to the final piece of the Iraq puzzle: forging an effective counter-insurgency strategy. Until recently, we have not had one.

Our forces would clean out a town. Then they would move to the next hornet’s nest, and the insurgents would return.

Why? Because we did not have enough U.S. troops…or any capable Iraqi troops…to hold what we had cleared.

Meanwhile, neither the Iraqi government nor our reconstruction efforts were capable of building a better future for those temporarily liberated from the violence.

The Administration finally seems to understand the need not only to clear territory, but to hold it, and then to build on it.

The critical question is this: who will do most of the clearing and the holding? We now have no choice but to gamble on the Iraqis.

In the past, I argued that we needed more American troops in Iraq for exactly that purpose. The failure to provide them…and the absence of capable Iraqis…made a “clear and hold” strategy impossible.

We also left huge ammunition depots unguarded…allowed unchecked looting…and created a security vacuum filled by Sunni insurgents, foreign jihadists and common criminals.

But the time for a large number of additional American troops is past.

What we need now is a different mix, with more embedded trainers, civil affairs units and special forces.

The hard truth is that our large military presence in Iraq is both necessary…and increasingly counter-productive.

Our presence remains necessary because, right now, our troops are the only guarantor against chaos. Pulling out prematurely would doom any chance of leaving Iraq with our core interests intact.

But our large presence is also, increasingly, part of the problem.

Two years ago…even one year ago…Iraqis were prepared to accept an even larger American presence if that’s what it took to bring security and real improvements to their lives.

Our failure to do just that has fueled growing Iraqi frustration. A liberation is increasingly felt as an occupation. And we risk creating a culture of dependency, especially among Iraqi security forces.

Even if more troops still made sense, we don’t have more to give. In fact, we cannot sustain what we have now beyond next spring unless we extend deployment times beyond 12 months…send soldiers back for third, fourth, and fifth tours…or pull forces from other regions.

That is why it is virtually certain we will redeploy a significant number of forces from Iraq in 2006…and more will follow in 2007.

Assuming we succeed in preventing a civil war, perhaps 20,000 to 40,000 Americans will stay for some time after that to continue training and equipping the Iraqis…to keep Iraq’s neighbors honest…and to form a rapid reaction force to prevent jihadists from establishing a permanent base in Iraq.

If–if—that redeployment is accompanied by measurable progress in forging a political settlement…building real Iraqi governing capacity…and transferring control to effective Iraqi security forces…we can start the journey home from Iraq with our fundamental interests intact.

But if we fail to implement the plan I’ve described, then Iraq is likely to become a Bush-fulfilling prophecy–a terrorist training ground–and we’ll see a full blown civil war that could become a regional war.

If that happens, nothing we can do will salvage Iraq. We’ll be reduced to trying to contain the problem from afar. Those who today are calling for us to leave will be proved tragically prescient.

I still believe that, if the administration follows the plan I’ve outlined today–and if the President brings it to the American people and asks for their support—we can start climbing out of the hole the administration has dug…and start to leave Iraq with our interests intact.

Iraqis of all sects want to live in a stable country. Iraq’s neighbors don’t want a civil war. The major powers don’t want a terrorist haven in the heart of the Middle East.

And the American people want us to succeed. They want it badly. If the administration listens, if it levels, and if it leads, it can still redeem their faith.

Thanks for listening.


http://www.cfr.org/publication/9254/
rox63
Biden does not speak for all Democrats. As far as I know, he only speaks for himself. And other Democrats are putting forward plans to get us out of Iraq.
TheRestofUs
He sounds reasonable. However, it may be too late for this.
tomhye
I read the speech and if the start of this thread wasn't a red herring it was an outright lie. Biden is for cautious withdrawal, not continued war. I honestly don't understand how people can keep falling for that misrepresentation.
real_democrat
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Nov 21 2005, 07:14 PM)
roflmbo.gif  roflmbo.gif

Of course, haven't seen the 55 republican senators do anything, and that one republican house lady who almost lost to Hackett had the audacity to call Murtha a coward.
What arses the republicans are
*


Like in what way is prolonging a war tied to benchmarks better or different than "as long as it takes"? Other than an arbitrary number of 15 months, they boil down to the same thing. We will stay until we have achieved our goals. And both Bush and the DLC have the same goals. In what substansive way is this not the case?

Murtha's view is far different, he has no allusions that we have goals tied to benchmarks, except those which insure the safety of our troops. When he says "I have concluded that the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is impeding this progress" he invalidates Kerry's and Bush notion we have some reason for staying, that in fact prolonging our presence is harmful.

In what way is Kerry and DLC right and Murtha wrong?

Insights will be helpful.
real_democrat
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Nov 21 2005, 07:23 PM)
Not a red herring at all.  Biden gave a big Iraq speech today at the Council on Foreign Relations.  He's a prominent Democrat, supposedly THE Democratic expert on foreign policy, and a likely candidate for president in 2008.  It's good that we examine his views.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9254/
*

And note they seem to be exactly what the hawkish CAP is saying...

And Kerry and Hillary....
TheRestofUs
Kerry, and Murtha are saying this was a mistake. I don't know what Biden's view is on that question, as he is clearly focusing on trying to make lemonaide out of a lemon. He has concured with other Dems that we were deliberately misled into this war. He is trying to be pragmatic, and trying to succeed. Just because what he is recommending may no longer be possible doesn't make him in league with Bush. But, many conservatives may see Biden as trying to make this succeed at least on some level. Just because you don't like that, carrys little weight with America's overall interests.

If we leave and it devolves into a regional war, we will have to fight that one. Dems need to try and solve real problems, and real leaders think long term. Both Kerry and Biden are thinking long term if you read their proposals with an open mind.
Beamer
QUOTE(rox63 @ Nov 21 2005, 04:29 PM)
Biden does not speak for all Democrats. As far as I know, he only speaks for himself. And other Democrats are putting forward plans to get us out of Iraq.
*



I'm all for the plan that gets us out of Iraq as quickly as possible. I believe, like many others, that our presence there is just aggravating the situation. Even the Iraqis are calling for a timetable for withdrawal.

I am concerned also that we NOT have to go back in once we pull out. So, I think studying the various plans and getting behind the one we think has the best chance of succeeding is useful.

I think we also need to get clear what our TRUE goals are in Iraq. What are Bush's real goals? What are the Democratic leadership's real goals, (DLC, Biden, Kerry, Hillary)? And what are the goals and plans of those who have opposed our war in Iraq from the beginning? I happen to distrust the first two because I think their goals are similar, even if their methods are not. However, I am not reflexively saying we should pull out immediately, no matter what happens to the Iraqis.

I think Murtha speaks entirely from a military man's standpoint in that he is interested in the option that is best for our troops. However, he clearly is not opposed to using the military to accomplish the goals of U.S. foreign policy.

I think there are varying viewpoints on this forum as to what the foreign policy goals of the U.S. SHOULD BE. So, where Biden's plan may sound good to one of us, someone else may think it sounds faulty or too close to Bush.
Beamer
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 04:37 PM)
Like in what way is prolonging a war tied to benchmarks better or different than "as long as it takes"? Other than an arbitrary number of 15 months, they boil down to the same thing. We will stay until we have achieved our goals. And both Bush and the DLC have the same goals. In what substansive way is this not the case?

Murtha's view is far different, he has no allusions that we have goals tied to benchmarks, except those which insure the safety of our troops. When he says "I have concluded that the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is impeding this progress" he invalidates Kerry's and Bush notion we have some reason for staying, that in fact prolonging our presence is harmful.

In what way is Kerry and DLC right and Murtha wrong?

Insights, not insults, will be most helpful.
*



Good points.
real_democrat
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Nov 21 2005, 07:47 PM)
Kerry, and Murtha are saying this was a mistake. I don't know what Biden's view is on that question, as he is clearly focusing on trying to make lemonaide out of a lemon. He has concured with other Dems that we were deliberately misled into this war. He is trying to be pragmatic, and trying to succeed. Just because what he is recommending may no longer be possible doesn't make him in league with Bush. But, many conservatives may see Biden as trying to make this succeed at least on some level. Just because you don't like that, carrys little weight with America's overall interests.

If we leave and it devolves into a regional war, we will have to fight that one. Dems need to try and solve real problems, and real leaders think long term. Both Kerry and Biden are thinking long term if you read their proposals with an open mind.
*

But there is nothing new in these proposals. It is the same thing they have always said, they have simply yoked thier old rhetotic to the notion of a withdrawal. The same plan The Center For American Progress is touting.

Murtha gets it. We can do more, so lets leave. In fact he says staying is worse, and he is right. A long term plan is a plan to fail in his mind, the longer we stay the worse it gets. So far that has been true. Why would it all of a sudden get better? Bush believes if we stay longer things will get better, and he is wrong, and has been all along. When Democrats say the same thing how does it become right? Other than saying they are good leaders, in what ways does what they want to do differ from Bush's?
no retreat, no surrender
QUOTE(tomhye @ Nov 21 2005, 08:09 PM)
Sorry, all I get is a ? and clicking on it doesn't do anything.
*


I don't know what happened to it???

I fixed it though in my original post. Hopefully it won't disappear again?

TheRestofUs
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 06:22 PM)
But there is nothing new in these proposals. It is the same thing they have always said, they have simply yoked thier old rhetotic to the notion of a withdrawal.  The same plan The Center For American Progress is touting.

Murtha gets it. We can do more, so lets leave. In fact he says staying is worse, and he is right. A long term plan is a plan to fail in his mind, the longer we stay the worse it gets. So far that has been true. Why would it all of a sudden get better? Bush believes if we stay longer things will get better, and he is wrong, and has been all along. When Democrats say the same thing how does it become right? Other than saying they are good leaders, in what ways does what they want to do differ from Bush's?
*

Aside from the monumental blunder of rushing into war. Bush has done nothing right since then. Everything, from no proper equipment for our troops, from dismantling the Iraqi Army to allowing looting, to leaving ammo dumps unsecured. It has been one bungle after another. Halliburton, Bechtel, Big Oil taking Iraq jobs, Billions disappearing instead of restoring electricity, water and sewage. Abu Girab finally clinched it. Good Leadership makes all the difference.

In the end we broke it, now we have to try and fix it, or we will have to fight a bigger war. Bushco. is clearly incompetent, and corrupt. Biden, and Kerry are not. I understand Murtha's reasoning, and if we don't follow something like a Biden or Kerry plan NOW. We should leave soon because we will just continue making things worse with NO PLAN to make things better, and our troops will pay the price! That's the difference!
ConcernedObserver
Just once I'd like to enter this forum and not find the same negativity dominating .

If no one else sees what is going on then I seriously question the comprehension level around here.

I fully expect this post to be deleted and perhaps even receive a suggestion I take my leave. If so I will do so with regret because there are members here whom I very much respect and would like to support. But I will understand and do as you wish.

I'm sorry but I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore without speaking up.
tomhye
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 21 2005, 06:37 PM)
I don't know what happened to it???

I fixed it though in my original post. Hopefully it won't disappear again?


*

roflmao.gif

We'd better get it right soon!
Eugeenie
QUOTE(no retreat @ no surrender,Nov 21 2005, 07:37 PM)
I don't know what happened to it???

I fixed it though in my original post. Hopefully it won't disappear again?


*


Isn't it time for the credits to start rolling on this one, though?
tomhye
[quote=ConcernedObserver,Nov 21 2005, 06:41 PM]
Just once I'd like to enter this forum and not find the same negativity dominating .

If no one else sees what is going on then I seriously question the comprehension level around here.

I fully expect this post to be deleted and perhaps even receive a suggestion I take my leave. If so I will do so with regret because there are members here whom I very much respect and would like to support. But I will understand and do as you wish.

I'm sorry but I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore without speaking up.
*



Thanks for finding the kindest terminology that can accurately be applied!

Are you referring to the blatant propaganda being repeated endlessly as a brainwashing technique or the obvious distractions based on lies and innuendo being used to cripple any chance of discussion that could actually lead to common ground?
ConcernedObserver
[quote=tomhye,Nov 21 2005, 08:48 PM]
[quote=ConcernedObserver,Nov 21 2005, 06:41 PM]
Just once I'd like to enter this forum and not find the same negativity dominating .

If no one else sees what is going on then I seriously question the comprehension level around here.

I fully expect this post to be deleted and perhaps even receive a suggestion I take my leave. If so I will do so with regret because there are members here whom I very much respect and would like to support. But I will understand and do as you wish.

I'm sorry but I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore without speaking up.
*

Thanks for finding the kindest terminology that can accurately be applied!

Are you referring to the blatant propaganda being repeated endlessly as a brainwashing technique or the obvious distractions based on lies and innuendo being used to cripple any chance of discussion that could actually lead to common ground?
*

[/quote]

Both are equally applicable. Take your pick.
real_democrat
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Nov 21 2005, 08:41 PM)
Just once I'd like to enter this forum and not find the same negativity dominating .

If no one else sees what is going on then I seriously question the comprehension level around here.

I fully expect this post to be deleted and perhaps even receive a suggestion I take my leave.  If so I will do so  with regret because there are members here whom I very much respect and  would like to support. But I will understand  and do as you wish.

I'm sorry but I just can't take the hypocrisy anymore without speaking up.
*

You always seem rather angry at other posters. Perhaps you could tell all us meanies in what way we are wrong.
  • If one concludes things are wrong, should they simply stay silent so you can feel better?
  • What is it that is not being comprehended?
  • What have you seen that is hypocrisy?
  • No one wants anyone to leave, in fact, your cogent arguments and analysis are welcome.
Eugeenie
QUOTE(tomhye @ Nov 21 2005, 07:48 PM)
  Are you referring to the blatant propaganda being repeated endlessly as a brainwashing technique or the obvious distractions based on lies and innuendo being used to cripple any chance of discussion that could actually lead to common ground?
*


I was thinking it might have to do with the coordinated nature of the attacks aimed at discrediting anybody in a position to run for president against the republicans in 08.
ConcernedObserver
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 08:54 PM)
You always seem rather angry at other posters. Perhaps you could tell all us meanies in what way we are wrong.
  • If one concludes things are wrong, should they simply stay silent so you can feel better?
  • What is it that is not being comprehended?
  • What have you seen that is hypocrisy?
  • No one wants anyone to leave, in fact, your cogent arguments and analysis are welcome.
*

I do believe that decision is up to the management of this forum.
wundermaus
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 06:54 PM)
You always seem rather angry at other posters. Perhaps you could tell all us meanies in what way we are wrong.
  • If one concludes things are wrong, should they simply stay silent so you can feel better?
  • What is it that is not being comprehended?
  • What have you seen that is hypocrisy?
  • No one wants anyone to leave, in fact, your cogent arguments and analysis are welcome.
*

CO - Your anger is justified.
Confront that which offends you.
Expose that which hides from the light of reason.
Stay here and don't back down to the lies, manipulations, and deceptions.
ConcernedObserver
QUOTE(wundermaus @ Nov 21 2005, 09:02 PM)
CO -  Your anger is justified.
Confront that which offends you.
Expose that which hides from the light of reason.
Stay here and don't back down to the lies, manipulations, and deceptions.
*

I have never backed down in 70 years. I don't plan on doing so now.

Thanks Wunder.
rox63
Betty, there are others here who share your frustration at those who have no desire or intent to forge any kind of common ground.
wundermaus
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Nov 21 2005, 07:03 PM)
I have never backed down in 70 years. I don't plan on doing so now.

Thanks Wunder.
*

Bravo, CO!
Beamer
QUOTE(real_democrat @ Nov 21 2005, 05:54 PM)
You always seem rather angry at other posters. Perhaps you could tell all us meanies in what way we are wrong.
  • If one concludes things are wrong, should they simply stay silent so you can feel better?
  • What is it that is not being comprehended?
  • What have you seen that is hypocrisy?
  • No one wants anyone to leave, in fact, your cogent arguments and analysis are welcome.
*



I think it is much more fruitful to focus on the actual policy positions that are being proposed by the various people. If you don't like someone's policy positions, then it is your perfect right to speak up about it.
ConcernedObserver
QUOTE(rox63 @ Nov 21 2005, 09:05 PM)
Betty, there are others here who share your frustration at those who have no desire or intent to forge any kind of common ground.
*

I know that Rox. I also know I am expendable. The rest of you are not.

Do not ever stop believing and fighting for what you know is right .

It wins in the end. Always.
Beamer
Where is a moderator when you need one? Someone needs to arbitrate this before another whole topic ends up getting deleted.
tomhye
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Nov 21 2005, 07:05 PM)
I think it is much more fruitful to focus on the actual policy positions that are being proposed by the various people.  If you don't like someone's policy positions, then it is your perfect right to speak up about it.
*


Thank you!
Beamer
QUOTE(tomhye @ Nov 21 2005, 06:09 PM)
Thank you!
*



Well, I think that real_democrat doesn't like Kerry's or Biden's positions on Iraq. Is there a problem with that?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.