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winston smith
IVAW Website.

QUOTE(An Open Letter to Bubba)
By Charlie Anderson, Iraq Veterans Against the War


I’ve seen you around.  I’ve seen you driving your gas guzzling SUV with the “Support Our Troops” ribbon on the back. I’ve seen you wearing your pro-war/pro-bush t-shirts as you walk right past me in my Iraq Veterans Against the War t-shirt as if I don’t exist. And I’ve seen you at anti-war rallies and meetings where I often speak, as you wave your American flag and call me a traitor.  In this country we have freedom of speech.  But you owe me and every other veteran of this war the respect of listening to our experience.

Your magnet says “support our troops,” but what have you done for us?  Not a penny of the proceeds go to us, instead they go to sweatshops in . You say that I am not supporting the troops when I say that they should come home. But I am, because I know that there was no threat to our nation from Saddam Hussein, I know that had no weapons of mass destruction, and I know that we were not welcomed in as liberators.  I know that the war was not worth fighting.  I know, because I fought there. You say I’m confused.  But what do you know about ?  You’ve never been there. 

You have the audacity to claim that by not supporting the president, I don’t support the troops.  Yet, the president chose to send over 160,000 of us to unprepared and without a defined mission.  We had no body armor, no vehicle armor, and poor supplies of ammunition.  Our families spent thousands of dollars that they did not have to supply us, while President Bush did nothing.  In fact he didn’t even scold his Offensive Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, when he told our forward deployed troops, “you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.”  Moreover, the mission was originally about weapons of mass destruction, but there were none.  Then it was making a democracy, but yet the “insurgency” worsens.  Now the president has decided that in order to honor those who died for nothing, more must die for nothing.

At present, 2,241 of my brothers and sisters in arms have died.  In some way, they may be the lucky ones. Over sixteen thousand others have been wounded in this war, thousands more than planned. The term wounded sounds sterile, bland, and inoffensive.  But, in reality, many of them have been so horribly damaged that medical science had to create a new word to describe their wounds: polytrauma.  These people would have died in earlier wars, but because of the gallant efforts of brave doctors and medics, they get to live.  They get to live with teams of ten or more doctors just trying to get their broken, mangled bodies through another day, as their families look on in horror.  They get to live in a physical and emotional hell, not able to recover and not able to voice the pain they feel or the psychological demons they face.  All the while suffering with a Veterans Administration under funded by nearly three billion dollars and unable to care for them in the manner they deserve.   

So which one of us supports the troops? You, who has never set foot in Iraq and wants to leave my brothers and sisters there until they complete whatever the undefined mission of the week is, or me, the veteran of this war who has seen the carnage of battle, the rampant indifference of my countrymen, and just wants to bring my brothers and sisters home alive and care for them when they get here?

Keep coming to the rallies. Maybe I’ll get through your thick skull eventually.  But remember I waved my flag in Baghdad , so you can sit down, shut up, and listen to me
kindergarten teacher
Over sixteen thousand others have been wounded in this war, thousands more than planned. The term wounded sounds sterile, bland, and inoffensive. But, in reality, many of them have been so horribly damaged that medical science had to create a new word to describe their wounds: polytrauma. These people would have died in earlier wars, but because of the gallant efforts of brave doctors and medics, they get to live. They get to live with teams of ten or more doctors just trying to get their broken, mangled bodies through another day, as their families look on in horror. They get to live in a physical and emotional hell, not able to recover and not able to voice the pain they feel or the psychological demons they face. All the while suffering with a Veterans Administration under funded by nearly three billion dollars and unable to care for them in the manner they deserve.
Marine
Marine bomb expert shaken but not deterred by IED
Photo taken after blast has become symbol of resolve

By Monte Morin, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Sunday, January 15, 2006


RAMADI, Iraq — For Marine Gunnery Sgt. Michael Burghardt, the business of hunting down and defusing roadside bombs is something of a deadly chess game.

Burghardt, 36, of Fountain Valley, Calif., is probably one of the best-known and most well-respected improvised bomb experts in Iraq, where his skills are in constant demand.

Last September, an embedded journalist snapped a photo of Burghardt moments after a roadside bomb exploded on him in a notoriously troubled corner of western Ramadi — a city that Burghardt describes as “the scariest place on Earth.” The image shows Burghardt with bloodied legs and shredded uniform, flipping the bird to an unseen insurgent who triggered the bomb.

The photo has circulated widely among military personnel in Iraq, who view it as a powerful symbol of resolve and fighting spirit.

“It’s one hell of a picture,” said Col. John L. Gronski, commander of U.S. troops in and around Ramadi.

The 2-28 Brigade Combat Team commander keeps an enlarged, autographed copy on his office wall.

Whether Burghardt is using a Mars rover-type robot or a knife blade to probe for bombs, or searching for them in a heavily armored Buffalo mine-clearing vehicle, his goal is to outmaneuver the fertile yet deadly imagination of the unseen bomb-maker and, he hopes, save the lives of fellow soldiers and Marines.

Now, with roughly two months remaining in his third Iraq tour, Burghardt shakes his head in wonder at the variety and evolution of the roadside bombs he has encountered and the relentlessness with which they’re planted.

Washing machine timers, cordless telephone docking stations, battery acid, shaped charges and artillery rounds seemingly scrounged from all corners of the globe are the insurgents’ currently preferred tools. Yet Burghardt said it’s only a matter of time before they move on to newer and deadlier devices.

“It’s a big game of chess,” Burghardt said. “They’re thinking their steps through on how to beat us, and we’re doing the same thing.”

In the hierarchy of roadside bombers, Burghardt said insurgents are divided into three groups: those who plant bombs; those who design them; and those who finance the process.

The lowest rungs, those who plant the improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, are most likely doing it for financial reasons as opposed to any ideology, he said.

“It’s almost like a drug habit,” Burghardt said. “There are the guys on the top who have the money and do the planning, and then there are the crack addicts down below. They make their living planting IED after IED until somebody puts a bullet in them.”

While roadside bombs remain the No. 1 killer of U.S. troops in Iraq, aggressive efforts at finding improvised explosive devices in and around Ramadi have reduced the number of attacks here from a September high of 45 a week to fewer than 15 currently, the U.S. military reports.

Burghardt earned the Bronze Star for disabling 64 roadside bombs and destroying more than 1,500 pieces of ordnance during his second Iraq tour.

But he and his fellow explosive ordnance disposal technicians do not always beat the bomb-makers and planters.

Already, five EOD technicians Burghardt has worked with have been killed, the most recent death occurring three weeks ago when the technician sunk his knife into a dirt berm and activated the pressure switch on a buried bomb.

“Pink mist,” Burghardt said gravely, using the term familiar to Marines to describe the aftermath of a person being blown up.

The day Burghardt found himself checkmated by a roadside bomber was Sept. 19. He was in Ramadi’s wild Tammim neighborhood as part of a team of bomb technicians responding to the scene of a chaotic ambush in which four U.S. personnel were killed.

Burghardt, who was looking to clear an evacuation route for the vehicles, hopped into what he thought was a recent bomb crater. He said he saw an interesting piece of shrapnel in the 4½-foot- deep hole and wanted to investigate. As he took a closer look, the shattered gravel beneath his foot suddenly shifted, revealing a package wrapped in orange plastic and a cordless telephone base station.

Realizing that he had just stumbled onto a primed explosive, Burghardt stuck his knife in the dirt and dredged up a red detonating cord that led to a pair of 122 mm artillery shells. He cut the cord with scissors and told the rest of his team to stay back.

“I thought I had done good,” Burghardt said.

But what he didn’t realize was that a second detonating cord ran from the base station to a third artillery shell buried behind him. The triggerman, figuring perhaps that he wouldn’t lure anyone else into the trap that day, placed a telephone call to the base station.

“That’s when I heard the distinct crack of that artillery shell,” Burghardt said.

The explosion sent Burghardt 10 feet into the air and dropped him in a heap on the road as his team watched in horror.

“All I remember is opening my eyes and hearing a ringing in my ears,” he said. “They all thought I was dead, but when I started to move I could hear them yell, ‘He’s alive!’”

Burghardt could not feel his legs. Trying not to look below his waist — afraid of what he might see — he was struck by an image of his father. The retired Marine spent three tours in Vietnam, earning three Bronze Stars and three Purple Hearts by the time he was shot by a sniper and paralyzed from the waist down.

“I didn’t want my dad to see me in a wheelchair next to him,” Burghardt said.

But relief came quickly. Burghardt was able to wiggle his toes.

Medics cut away his bloody pants to reveal that the backs of his legs had been studded with shrapnel and bruised from the top of his boots to his waist. As they prepared to place him in a stretcher, Burghardt shouted, “No.” He didn’t want his teammates or the insurgents to see him carried from the scene. He was going to walk.

As he was helped to his feet, Burghardt said, he felt a wave of anger and adrenaline flow through his system. He had just extended his Iraq tour that morning and he was livid that he had been bested by the bomber.

“I was really pissed off that they got me, that after all this time, they got me,” Burghardt said. “I figured the triggerman was still watching, so I flipped him off. I yelled, ‘[Expletive] you! I’ll be out here next week!’”

It was at this moment that photographer Jeff Bundy of the Omaha (Neb.) World-Herald snapped the photo that would be seen on office walls, refrigerators, screensavers, Web sites and newspapers throughout Iraq and the U.S.

Since then, Burghardt has had plenty of other experiences with exploding roadside bombs, but they’ve been from the relative safety of a heavily armored mine- clearing vehicle called a Buffalo.

The vehicle, which deactivates explosives using a long, hydraulic arm, is also outfitted with large ballistic glass windows that give occupants an up-close view of the explosives. Burghardt rides along with other technicians to give advice to the arm operator on how to deal with the explosives.

He describes the experience of riding in a Buffalo and getting close to bombs as something akin to visiting an “IED petting zoo.” The excitement of watching an explosive being dismantled — or of watching it explode in a fiery blast — from the protection of a Buffalo is beyond compare, Burghardt said.

“There will be no amusement park ride back in the States that can compare with the Buffalo,” he said. “You will never get a chance to get that close to an IED and feel all of those emotions, happiness, suspense, adrenaline.”

So far, Burghardt has seen at least 20 roadside bombs explode while riding in the Buffalo. Each time the vehicle rolls up to a suspected IED, Burghardt said, the emotions are the same. It’s back to the chess game.

“You’re in suspense — what’s gonna happen?” Burghardt said. “You have control, but you don’t know what the bomb builder has in store for you. You don’t know what else he’s put out there.

“That’s where it’s a chess game. You’re out there and you’re waiting for that queen to come sliding across the board.”
winston smith
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 7 2006, 06:30 AM)
Marine bomb expert shaken but not deterred by IED
Photo taken after blast has become symbol of resolve

By Monte Morin, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Sunday, January 15, 2006
RAMADI, Iraq — For Marine Gunnery Sgt. Michael Burghardt, the business of hunting down and defusing roadside bombs is something of a deadly chess game.

Burghardt, 36, of Fountain Valley, Calif., is probably one of the best-known and most well-respected improvised bomb experts in Iraq, where his skills are in constant demand.

Last September, an embedded journalist snapped a photo of Burghardt moments after a roadside bomb exploded on him in a notoriously troubled corner of western Ramadi — a city that Burghardt describes as “the scariest place on Earth.” The image shows Burghardt with bloodied legs and shredded uniform, flipping the bird to an unseen insurgent who triggered the bomb.

The photo has circulated widely among military personnel in Iraq, who view it as a powerful symbol of resolve and fighting spirit.

“It’s one hell of a picture,” said Col. John L. Gronski, commander of U.S. troops in and around Ramadi.

The 2-28 Brigade Combat Team commander keeps an enlarged, autographed copy on his office wall.

Whether Burghardt is using a Mars rover-type robot or a knife blade to probe for bombs, or searching for them in a heavily armored Buffalo mine-clearing vehicle, his goal is to outmaneuver the fertile yet deadly imagination of the unseen bomb-maker and, he hopes, save the lives of fellow soldiers and Marines.

Now, with roughly two months remaining in his third Iraq tour, Burghardt shakes his head in wonder at the variety and evolution of the roadside bombs he has encountered and the relentlessness with which they’re planted.

Washing machine timers, cordless telephone docking stations, battery acid, shaped charges and artillery rounds seemingly scrounged from all corners of the globe are the insurgents’ currently preferred tools. Yet Burghardt said it’s only a matter of time before they move on to newer and deadlier devices.

“It’s a big game of chess,” Burghardt said. “They’re thinking their steps through on how to beat us, and we’re doing the same thing.”

In the hierarchy of roadside bombers, Burghardt said insurgents are divided into three groups: those who plant bombs; those who design them; and those who finance the process.

The lowest rungs, those who plant the improvised explosive devices, or IEDs, are most likely doing it for financial reasons as opposed to any ideology, he said.

“It’s almost like a drug habit,” Burghardt said. “There are the guys on the top who have the money and do the planning, and then there are the crack addicts down below. They make their living planting IED after IED until somebody puts a bullet in them.”

While roadside bombs remain the No. 1 killer of U.S. troops in Iraq, aggressive efforts at finding improvised explosive devices in and around Ramadi have reduced the number of attacks here from a September high of 45 a week to fewer than 15 currently, the U.S. military reports.

Burghardt earned the Bronze Star for disabling 64 roadside bombs and destroying more than 1,500 pieces of ordnance during his second Iraq tour.

But he and his fellow explosive ordnance disposal technicians do not always beat the bomb-makers and planters.

Already, five EOD technicians Burghardt has worked with have been killed, the most recent death occurring three weeks ago when the technician sunk his knife into a dirt berm and activated the pressure switch on a buried bomb.

“Pink mist,” Burghardt said gravely, using the term familiar to Marines to describe the aftermath of a person being blown up.

The day Burghardt found himself checkmated by a roadside bomber was Sept. 19. He was in Ramadi’s wild Tammim neighborhood as part of a team of bomb technicians responding to the scene of a chaotic ambush in which four U.S. personnel were killed.

Burghardt, who was looking to clear an evacuation route for the vehicles, hopped into what he thought was a recent bomb crater. He said he saw an interesting piece of shrapnel in the 4½-foot- deep hole and wanted to investigate. As he took a closer look, the shattered gravel beneath his foot suddenly shifted, revealing a package wrapped in orange plastic and a cordless telephone base station.

Realizing that he had just stumbled onto a primed explosive, Burghardt stuck his knife in the dirt and dredged up a red detonating cord that led to a pair of 122 mm artillery shells. He cut the cord with scissors and told the rest of his team to stay back.

“I thought I had done good,” Burghardt said.

But what he didn’t realize was that a second detonating cord ran from the base station to a third artillery shell buried behind him. The triggerman, figuring perhaps that he wouldn’t lure anyone else into the trap that day, placed a telephone call to the base station.

“That’s when I heard the distinct crack of that artillery shell,” Burghardt said.

The explosion sent Burghardt 10 feet into the air and dropped him in a heap on the road as his team watched in horror.

“All I remember is opening my eyes and hearing a ringing in my ears,” he said. “They all thought I was dead, but when I started to move I could hear them yell, ‘He’s alive!’”

Burghardt could not feel his legs. Trying not to look below his waist — afraid of what he might see — he was struck by an image of his father. The retired Marine spent three tours in Vietnam, earning three Bronze Stars and three Purple Hearts by the time he was shot by a sniper and paralyzed from the waist down.

“I didn’t want my dad to see me in a wheelchair next to him,” Burghardt said.

But relief came quickly. Burghardt was able to wiggle his toes.

Medics cut away his bloody pants to reveal that the backs of his legs had been studded with shrapnel and bruised from the top of his boots to his waist. As they prepared to place him in a stretcher, Burghardt shouted, “No.” He didn’t want his teammates or the insurgents to see him carried from the scene. He was going to walk.

As he was helped to his feet, Burghardt said, he felt a wave of anger and adrenaline flow through his system. He had just extended his Iraq tour that morning and he was livid that he had been bested by the bomber.

“I was really pissed off that they got me, that after all this time, they got me,” Burghardt said. “I figured the triggerman was still watching, so I flipped him off. I yelled, ‘[Expletive] you! I’ll be out here next week!’”

It was at this moment that photographer Jeff Bundy of the Omaha (Neb.) World-Herald snapped the photo that would be seen on office walls, refrigerators, screensavers, Web sites and newspapers throughout Iraq and the U.S.

Since then, Burghardt has had plenty of other experiences with exploding roadside bombs, but they’ve been from the relative safety of a heavily armored mine- clearing vehicle called a Buffalo.

The vehicle, which deactivates explosives using a long, hydraulic arm, is also outfitted with large ballistic glass windows that give occupants an up-close view of the explosives. Burghardt rides along with other technicians to give advice to the arm operator on how to deal with the explosives.

He describes the experience of riding in a Buffalo and getting close to bombs as something akin to visiting an “IED petting zoo.” The excitement of watching an explosive being dismantled — or of watching it explode in a fiery blast — from the protection of a Buffalo is beyond compare, Burghardt said.

“There will be no amusement park ride back in the States that can compare with the Buffalo,” he said. “You will never get a chance to get that close to an IED and feel all of those emotions, happiness, suspense, adrenaline.”

So far, Burghardt has seen at least 20 roadside bombs explode while riding in the Buffalo. Each time the vehicle rolls up to a suspected IED, Burghardt said, the emotions are the same. It’s back to the chess game.

“You’re in suspense — what’s gonna happen?” Burghardt said. “You have control, but you don’t know what the bomb builder has in store for you. You don’t know what else he’s put out there.

“That’s where it’s a chess game. You’re out there and you’re waiting for that queen to come sliding across the board.”
*

Marine, this is a really good story but I'm not sure why you placed it on this thread. There is no question this guy is incredibly brave- and probably certifiably Section 8- and I have put the picture of him flipping off his attacker in my album- might even make it a screensaver on my computer at home. (Not appropriate for a school room, the finger that is...)

So what are you trying to say? That the Marine who wrote the IVAW letter is somehow less brave? That his anti-war advocacy somehow compromises or diminishes his year of Hell? And I don't care if he spent his whole tour in the Green Zone just like I wouldn't care if you spent all of Gulf War I in an intelligence tent somewhere in Kuwait and never fired your weapon in combat. Wherever you are in a war, it's Hell.

Being against the war is not being against the men and women who fight it. To the contrary, being against this war in particular is the finest action a patriotic American can take for our troops. Our President did everything possible to start this war; to say the reasons were questionable is an understatement of the greatest magnitude, and to deny it is naive. That these men and women have been placed in harm's way through the incredible incompetence of Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz is to their disservice, not to the honor of the armed forces. To incompetently place such and incredible array of brave men and women, such a splendid force, at risk for the shapeshifting chimera of Mushroom Clouds, to WMD's, to Ousting Saddam, to Freedom on the March and its many iterations, is criminal. That they are still there 3 years after their commander in chief declared their mission to be accomplished is the most compelling argument for the moral vaccuum within the Administration and the greatest reason for the movement to end this Constitutional blasphemy.

Which is exactly what this thread is about. Some- many- perhaps most, I don't know- do their duty with pride and honor in spite of their objections to the war and the cowardly men in high places who put them there. Participation in a movement whose sole purpose is to magnify and illuminate the bankruptcy of initiative driving the Bush Administration is, IMHO, the highest form of morality and patriotism an American can practice.
Indianhead
Powerful sh*t Winston, powerful sh*t...
reminds me of the day...most won't join
him yet...most take their medals...their
parades and never visit the VA Hospital.
The ones in the hospitals are just trying to
get by...some to get high.

It's a fair balance, voices that should be heard.
Because most have a sense of resignation
because they were in the Guard, Reserve of active
forces. There will be a few who fought there and
decide to fight here. Every word has weight, just
as much weight as those chosen by the administration
to go on Fox and CNN to speak for the war.

That's all I want - respect for everyone who humped.
That's support for vets...all vets...no matter their
politics...their experience...their questions. God
bless 'em...each and every one. In a reverse of
Bobby Kennedy's phrase...some ask why not,
others ask:

Why?

There is a time for war,
there is a time for peace...
I pray it's not too late.


VVAW - Miami Beach - GOP National Convention 1972
(I've never been prouder than that week in Miami Beach...Peace)
winston smith
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Feb 7 2006, 05:03 PM)
There is a time for war,
there is a time for peace...
I pray it's not too late.


VVAW - Miami Beach - GOP National Convention 1972
(I've never been prouder than that week in Miami Beach...Peace)
*

Peace, bro.
Indianhead
If we are to fight and die...then the truth
must be the cause. There is no greater
mission. There is no clearer call to arms.

Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.

"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall."

The above Latin quotation – usually attributed to Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus, a Roman statesman and Julius Caesar's father-in-law is
the call to arms for all crusaders for the faith...the idea...the country.

Let those who serve speak...it is required...as honor is required...

The Right of Revolution Vindicated..., April 29, 2002
Reviewer: Ryan Setliff (Danville, VA USA) -
~Vindiciae, Contra Tyrannos~ is best translated to "A Vindication of Opposition to Tyrants." It was written in response to French monarchy's slaughter of French Huguenots. As it best translates from Latin, it is a vindication of opposition to tyrants and a Biblical defense of the right of revolution or rebellion to a corrupt king/leader. If you want to understand the covenant origins of the American polity and the influence of Biblical, Puritanical or Calvinistic political thought on the American founders than this book is worth exploring.

This is a very valuable historical piece in the struggle for liberty... Secularists have deemphasized the signficance of this tract's influence in the American Revolution, because of an affinity for the humanistic enlightenment.

Learn history...or be doomed to repeat the mistakes...Death to tyrants..
sic semper tyrannis
Marine
Tell me something Winston, how many stories do you see about "Charlie Anderson" and the "Iraq Veterans against the War", let's say over a week's time? When I google the two before mentioned quoted items I got 9,280 hits.

Now, let's change the google to "Michael Burghardt" and "Iraq". We get 380 hits on this google.

The vast majority of the American troops in Iraq will tell you the can related to Michael Burghardt much more readily than they can to Charlie Anderson. From my experience of talking to folks who have been to Iraq the ratio would be at best less than 1 in 10 who would related to Charlie Anderson's views over Michael Burghardt's views.

So, have you wondered why someone who is less representative of the opinions gets so much more exposure, in this case by a tremendous amount? Could it be the old axiom of propaganda that if something is repeated incessantantly it will be perceived as more true than something you hear only occassionaly?

I think every time someone mentions Charlie Anderson or somebody like him someone needs to point out what they are seeing is propaganda which does not represent the people Charlie Anderson purports to represent.
winston smith
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 8 2006, 04:18 AM)
Tell me something Winston, how many stories do you see about "Charlie Anderson" and the "Iraq Veterans against the War", let's say over a week's time?  When I google the two before mentioned quoted items I got 9,280  hits.

Now, let's change the google to "Michael Burghardt" and "Iraq".  We get 380 hits on this google.

The vast majority of the American troops in Iraq will tell you the can related to Michael Burghardt much more readily than they can to Charlie Anderson.  From my experience of talking to folks who have been to Iraq the ratio would be at best less than 1 in 10 who would related to Charlie Anderson's views over Michael Burghardt's views.

So, have you wondered why someone who is less representative of the opinions gets so much more exposure, in this case by a tremendous amount?  Could it be the old axiom of propaganda that if something is repeated incessantantly it will be perceived as more true than something you hear only occassionaly?

I think every time someone mentions Charlie Anderson or somebody like him someone needs to point out what they are seeing is propaganda which does not represent the people Charlie Anderson purports to represent.
*

In order for communications to be propaganda, you must premise an argument based upon something approaching a lie. Most bold-faced lies are obvious and therefore make for poor propaganda, but it's the ones with just an element of truth in them that become the subject of propaganda. We know that Saddam had no WMD's, but there was an element of truth in its supposition: he'd had and used them in the past. From that argument- clearly based upon something approaching a lie- a wellspring of propaganda would flow. The truth is, there were no WMD's. The propaganda is that intel was bad.

But Marine, that is not what my post was about, nor is it the purpose of this thread. Your argument is that the 9,280 Anderson/IVAW hits are based upon propaganda, while the 380 Burghardt hits are somehow based upon an assumed truth: that most of our armed forces in Iraq think it is right to be there. I would argue that the 9,280 hits at IVAW signifies a matrix of greater, more forthright truths: people do not believe what they are hearing from this Administration; people believe we should not be there- that we should never have gone there; the war is not going well in spite of some substantial and significant successes. While there may be some intentional and unintentional misstatements from IVAW, the purpose of the site is to address an immense matrix of known falsehoods told by the President and his key Cabinet members. Truth repeated a thousand times is always the truth.

This does nothing to diminish or take away from the 380 hits on the Burghardt site. It is not a condemnation of Anderson or the IVAW that most in-theater forces see Burghardt as representative of their beliefs. One would expect as much; it is in their best interest to believe in their commander-in-chief and, until quite recently, it was the only position given a voice in the Iraq theater.

The best example is that, until January, Armed Forces Radio refused to allow any liberal or progressive voices be heard, period. It was only after Ed Shultz and nearly a million peititoners from AAR wrote to DoD, their senators, and their congressmen, that a liberal voice became part of the broadcast agenda. Until that time, O'Reilly, Hannity, and Limbaugh were the only political positions broadcast on AFR. That, my friend, is propaganda: a captive audience, only one radio station with only one story, and all e-mails filtered by the DoD. I'm not implying that our servicemen and women have been brainwashed, but they most certainly have not heard both sides of the story.

It's not about either of them or about how they perceive the war. The propaganda is not coming from them, it is coming from Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Rove; I don't think this President is savvy or intelligent enough to be this duplicitous.
Marine
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 8 2006, 01:19 PM)
In order for communications to be propaganda, you must premise an argument based upon something approaching a lie.  Most bold-faced lies are obvious and therefore make for poor propaganda, but it's the ones with just an element of truth in them that become the subject of propaganda.  We know that Saddam had no WMD's, but there was an element of truth in its supposition: he'd had and used them in the past.  From that argument- clearly based upon something approaching a lie- a wellspring of propaganda would flow.  The truth is, there were no WMD's.  The propaganda is that intel was bad. 

But Marine, that is not what my post was about, nor is it the purpose of this thread.  Your argument is that the 9,280 Anderson/IVAW hits are based upon propaganda, while the 380 Burghardt hits are somehow based upon an assumed truth: that most of our armed forces in Iraq think it is right to be there.  I would argue that the 9,280 hits at IVAW signifies a matrix of greater, more forthright truths: people do not believe what they are hearing from this Administration; people believe we should not be there- that we should never have gone there; the war is not going well in spite of some substantial and significant successes.  While there may be some intentional and unintentional misstatements from IVAW, the purpose of the site is to address an immense matrix of known falsehoods told by the President and his key Cabinet members.  Truth repeated a thousand times is always the truth.

This does nothing to diminish or take away from the 380 hits on the Burghardt site.  It is not a condemnation of Anderson or the IVAW that most in-theater forces see Burghardt as representative of their beliefs.  One would expect as much; it is in their best interest to believe in their commander-in-chief and, until quite recently, it was the only position given a voice in the Iraq theater. 

The best example is that, until January, Armed Forces Radio refused to allow any liberal or progressive voices be heard, period.  It was only after Ed Shultz and nearly a million peititoners from AAR wrote to DoD, their senators, and their congressmen, that a liberal voice became part of the broadcast agenda.  Until that time, O'Reilly, Hannity, and Limbaugh were the only political positions broadcast on AFR.  That, my friend, is propaganda: a captive audience, only one radio station with only one story, and all e-mails filtered by the DoD.  I'm not implying that our servicemen and women have been brainwashed, but they most certainly have not heard both sides of the story. 

It's not about either of them or about how they perceive the war.  The propaganda is not coming from them, it is coming from Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Rove; I don't think this President is savvy or intelligent enough to be this duplicitous.
*

I may be because we are in a different and more cynical age Winston. Perhaps from prior experiences the command structure does not want their troops subjected to the abuse they suffered at the hands of a prior antiwar movement.

During WW2 the armed forces did not block out Lord HawHaw or Tokyo Rose. They have essentally the same objective as the current antiwar movement; to demoralize our military and convince them not to fight. The difference; Lord HawHaw and Tokyo Rose represented the enemy, the troops expected the enemy to propagandize to demoralize them, what the troops expect from their homefront is support in what they have been ordered to do. They neither want nor expect for their neighbors from back home telling them they are bad people for fighting at the orders of an evil regime.

I think a good deal has been learned since our experience in Vietnam, I don't think they will allow a vocal minority to influence foreign policy after what was learned from the motives of that antiwar movement.
vet65/69
this was their second tour of iraq
winston smith
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 9 2006, 07:27 PM)
They neither want nor expect for their neighbors from back home telling them they are bad people for fighting at the orders of an evil regime.
*

ohmy.gif MARINE! NO ONE HAS SAID THAT! ohmy.gif
If you listen to AAR, read Nation or New Republic, or just read the posts on this forum, I would be willing to wager that of the hundreds of thousands of hours broadcast and posts posted, you will not find more than a handful- if that- critical of our armed forces. Well, with the exception of the folks who brought us Abu Grahib. Let's qualify the term: serving honorably.

Our soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen are not bad people. They are, as you and I have discussed endlessly over the last many months, honest, giving, caring men and women who have chosen a noble profession and are doing their job who have done their job. That the men who misused them, sent them into harms way, are evil is no reflection upon our men and women in uniform.

If you listen to Ed Shultz on AAR, you will hear a compassionate man who truly respects and loves our military. He also likes to hunt and fish- and he's a football freak! And he's the only liberal voice they will hear.

Ask yourself the question, Marine. idea.gif If Rumsfeld is so sure he has done a good job, what is he so afraid of?
Pegatha
Winston and Marine,

Given that I often avoid the military threads, due to their obstreperous nature, let me say that I think that this is the most civil of them that I've seen.
winston smith
QUOTE(Pegatha @ Feb 9 2006, 11:19 PM)
Winston and Marine,

Given that I often avoid the military threads, due to their obstreperous nature, let me say that I think that this is the most civil of them that I've seen.
*

Thank you Pegatha. bigsmile.gif It's just a matter of respect. biggrin.gif
Marine
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 10 2006, 01:08 AM)
ohmy.gif MARINE! NO ONE HAS SAID THAT! ohmy.gif
If you listen to AAR, read Nation or New Republic, or just read the posts on this forum, I would be willing to wager that of the hundreds of thousands of hours broadcast and posts posted, you will not find more than a handful- if that- critical of our armed forces.  Well, with the exception of the folks who brought us Abu Grahib.  Let's qualify the term: serving honorably

Our soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen are not bad people.  They are, as you and I have discussed endlessly over the last many months, honest, giving, caring men and women who have chosen a noble profession and are doing their job who have done their job.  That the men who misused them, sent them into harms way, are evil is no reflection upon our men and women in uniform. 

If you listen to Ed Shultz on AAR, you will hear a compassionate man who truly respects and loves our military.  He also likes to hunt and fish- and he's a football freak!  And he's the only liberal voice they will hear.

Ask yourself the question, Marine. idea.gif  If Rumsfeld is so sure he has done a good job, what is he so afraid of?
*


But when the antiwar movement uses a Veteran to deliver their message the Veteran's comments are seized upon and reiterated as to make it sound as if every Veteran is against the war.

I don't think you would find a soul serving in the Military who if given the choice between a nice safe garrison duty or having the necessity of going off to fight a war would want to go off to fight a war. But when their Commander says it's necessary to go fight the vast majority will go fight and do their best to do a good job. They will also not start second guessing the necessity or why the decision was made to go fight.

A whole lot that has been set force on why it was necessary to go fight in Iraq has been purported to be a lie. You know, "No WMDs, Bush lied". Well, I'm here to tell you when I hear rhetoric like that I almost immediately discount it and the people who say it as pure political tripe.

I don't know how many times I posted on this forum that I saw classified documents assessing what we believed to be Iraqi capabilities and aspirations. They ended up being wrong but by in no form or fashion does that mean somebody lied.

I hear people saying evidence to the contrary was ignored that Saddam had WMDs. I'd like to you to exercise a little logic with the following example. Take 100 people with equal credibility; if 99 of them tell you that your neighbor has a machine gun then one person comes to you and says your neighbor is only trying to fool you that he has a machine gun who are you going to believe? Now if your neighbor turns out not to have a machine gun does that make you a liar if you believed he did?

GySgt Michael Burghardt is probably pretty representative of an American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine doing his job in Iraq. Doing a professional job in a place he probabaly doesn't want to be. But his story, his service, and his sacrifices are largely ignored or drowned out by folks like Charlie Anderson. Charlie Anderson ain't going to get people like Michael Burghardt out of Iraq tomorrow, next week, or even next year. But telling Michael Burghardt's story let's people just like Michael Burghardt know what they are doing is not for naught.

Tell me what you think is more important, telling stories which causes doubt to a trooper in harms way or telling him you appreciate the fine job he is doing?
vfguenley
Americans have a vast history of protesting wars, going all the way back to the beginning, we have always protested, in every war including the War for Independence.
Advise and Dissent
How anti-war protest movements have made the U.S. stronger.
By David Greenberg


Aristophanes' Lysistrata¬—a play that reminds us that anti-war movements are as old as war itself. In American history in particular, wartime dissent has a venerable lineage. Even during that most mythic of causes, the Revolution, fully one third of Americans opposed independence, in John Adams' famous estimate, while an equal third favored it. Only in retrospect did the Revolution become an unambiguously glorious endeavor.
Dissenters spoke out against virtually every subsequent conflict. The humiliating defeats of the War of 1812 made that fight so unpopular that the states of New England considered seceding from the Union. A generation later, many Americans viewed the Mexican-American War (not unreasonably) as an act of naked U.S. aggression. In 1848, shortly after the war's conclusion, Congress censured President James Polk for "unnecessarily and unconstitutionally" commencing hostilities. Supporting the rebuke was Illinois Rep. Abraham Lincoln, who attacked Polk as "a bewildered, confounded and miserably perplexed man."
Popular support for the Spanish-American War waned as the relatively easy fight for a free (i.e., pro-American) Cuba gave way to a more controversial program of wresting away Spain's other colonies, particularly the Philippines. When President William McKinley opted to annex the Philippines—he wanted, he said, "to educate the Filipinos and uplift and Christianize them"—a motley array of critics from Andrew Carnegie to Mark Twain objected. William Jennings Bryan used his dissenting stance as the centerpiece of his (losing) 1900 presidential campaign.
During World War I, critics excoriated Woodrow Wilson—who had run for re-election in 1916 on the slogan "He kept us out of war"—for entangling America in a bloody European conflict. Political leaders from Wisconsin Sen. Robert LaFollette to Socialist Party presidential candidate Eugene V. Debs spoke out. ("I had supposed until recently that it was the duty of senators … to vote and act according to their convictions," LaFollette sardonically told the Senate. "Quite another doctrine has recently been promulgated by certain newspapers … and that is the doctrine of 'standing back of the president' without inquiring whether the president is right or wrong.") The majority of Congress, however, passed a series of repressive laws that let the government imprison or deport thousands of critics of the president, including Debs. Vigilante groups ostracized, assaulted, and even lynched countless more.
In fact, the only major war that lacked an organized bloc of dissenters was World War II: Pearl Harbor had made an isolationist stance untenable, and as Americans learned more and more about Nazi Germany, most anti-war activists decided the defeat of fascism was worth fighting for. (Some rejoined peace movements, such as the nascent anti-nuclear effort, at the war's end.) Still, even during the "Good War," critics persisted. On the left, pacifists served prison time for refusing to fight or perform compulsory alternative service. On the right, congressional Republicans launched an investigation of Pearl Harbor, with some implying that Franklin Roosevelt had foreknowledge of the attack.
The case for dissent rests on more than its lineage. Critics of war—even when they've been wrong, or their comments distasteful—have done far more good than harm. Although enemy leaders may take heart from knowing that Americans are divided, the mere expression of opposition has never materially hurt any U.S. military campaign. Except perhaps for the Revolution's Loyalists, no dissenters have aided America's adversaries in large numbers. When, as in Vietnam, conditions like flagging troop morale have undermined battlefield success, it was the soldiers' awareness of the war's futility—not the protests back home—that created those conditions. The sense that the war was unwinnable fueled the peace movement, not the other way around.
In short, the claim that by protesting dissenters are showing insufficient "support" for the troops is specious. Does anyone really believe that doves wish ill upon American fighting men and women? Sometimes hawks cite stories that Vietnam anti-war activists vilified or even spit on returning veterans—stories, as Jack Shafer wrote in May 2000, that range from the overstated to the bogus. In fact, like almost all anti-war movements, anti-Vietnam demonstrators argued for peace in the name of the grunts being sent to die. Remember Vietnam Veterans Against the War?
vfguenley
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 07:22 AM)
But when the antiwar movement uses a Veteran to deliver their message the Veteran's comments are seized upon and reiterated as to make it sound as if every Veteran is against the war.

I don't think you would find a soul serving in the Military who if given the choice between a nice safe garrison duty or having the necessity of going off to fight a war would want to go off to fight a war.  But when their Commander says it's necessary to go fight the vast majority will go fight and do their best to do a good job.  They will also not start second guessing the necessity or why the decision was made to go fight. 

A whole lot that has been set force on why it was necessary to go fight in Iraq has been purported to be a lie.  You know, "No WMDs, Bush lied".  Well, I'm here to tell you when I hear rhetoric like that I almost immediately discount it and the people who say it as pure political tripe. 

I don't know how many times I posted on this forum that I saw classified documents assessing what we believed to be Iraqi capabilities and aspirations.  They ended up being wrong but by in no form or fashion does that mean somebody lied.

I hear people saying evidence to the contrary was ignored that Saddam had WMDs.  I'd like to you to exercise a little logic with the following example.  Take 100 people with equal credibility; if 99 of them tell you that your neighbor has a machine gun then one person comes to you and says your neighbor is only trying to fool you that he has a machine gun who are you going to believe?  Now if your neighbor turns out not to have a machine gun does that make you a liar if you believed he did?

GySgt Michael Burghardt is probably pretty representative of an American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine doing his job in Iraq.  Doing a professional job in a place he probabaly doesn't want to be.  But his story, his service, and his sacrifices are largely ignored or drowned out by folks like Charlie Anderson.  Charlie Anderson ain't going to get people like Michael Burghardt out of Iraq tomorrow, next week, or even next year.  But telling Michael Burghardt's story let's people just like Michael Burghardt know what they are doing is not for naught. 

Tell me what you think is more important, telling stories which causes doubt to a trooper in harms way or telling him you appreciate the fine job he is doing?
*


TELL THEM THE TRUTH!
winston smith
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
But when the antiwar movement uses a Veteran to deliver their message the Veteran's comments are seized upon and reiterated as to make it sound as if every Veteran is against the war.

Before I address you argument, take a look at this post; go back and read the whole thing if you haven't already.
QUOTE(vfguenley @ Feb 10 2006, 06:51 AM)
Americans have a vast history of protesting wars, going all the way back to the beginning, we have always protested, in every war including the War for Independence.
*
And anti-war protesting is not limited to the United States. There was a significant anti-war movement in Britain during the American Revolution; like the Vietnam anti-war movement, it had a significant and long-lasting impact on British society. But that is neither here nor there.

Marine, carry your thesis to the opposing argument: every time Rumsfeld uses his bully pulpit to deliver his comments, he makes it sound like every veteran is for the war.

No one in this nation believes that every veteran is against the war; however nearly 60% of the general population is. Thus, even if veterans are twice as likely to back the war as the general population (that in itself is a qualified assumption) it would still mean that nearly 1/3 would be against the war, so wouldn't you agree that to be a significant number? Are you suggesting that their voice should not be heard?
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
I don't think you would find a soul serving in the Military who if given the choice between a nice safe garrison duty or having the necessity of going off to fight a war would want to go off to fight a war.  But when their Commander says it's necessary to go fight the vast majority will go fight and do their best to do a good job.  They will also not start second guessing the necessity or why the decision was made to go fight. 

Unless I'm mistaken, I think I said as much in my last long post- theirs is not to question why. But what if their C in C says it's necessary, but it isn't? And that is exactly what this particular anti-war movement is all about.

QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
A whole lot that has been set force on why it was necessary to go fight in Iraq has been purported to be a lie.  You know, "No WMDs, Bush lied".  Well, I'm here to tell you when I hear rhetoric like that I almost immediately discount it and the people who say it as pure political tripe.

Considering the incredible amount of deceit and deception spawned like fleas by this administration, it's not hard to use the word 'lie' and be quite accurate, but for the sake of argument, let's take the 'lie' part out of the discussion. The only reason any nation goes to war is because they have either been attacked, or there is indisputable evidence that an attack is imminant. We were attacked, but not by Iraq, as the President has admitted; and virtually every intelligence report found it uncredible that he had nuclear capability or that he had delivery systems for any nerve or biological agents. The most optomistic projection provided by the intelligence communities world wide, including our own, said that his armed forces were hardly even a threat to neighboring states; that, even if he were to process the legally obtained enriched uranium assets he had, it would have been several years before he could have made a nuclear weapon.

QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
I don't know how many times I posted on this forum that I saw classified documents assessing what we believed to be Iraqi capabilities and aspirations. They ended up being wrong but by in no form or fashion does that mean somebody lied.

No one doubts that you saw those documents (although, since you've disclosed this information, I understand that the FBI is going to put listening devices on all the animals at your farm... laugh.gif ) As I said in an earlier post, the propaganda is that the intelligence was bad. Capabilities and aspirations do not amount to imminate threat. Rummy, Cheney, Rice, and Bush all made it sound as if Saddam had the immediate capacity to nuke Atlanta or Boise. There were absolutely no intelligence assessment that came close to making that assertion; to the contrary, every one of them said his military options were heavily compromised and diminished.

QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
I hear people saying ... liar if you believed he did?
I think I've addressed this above, but didn't want you to think I'd avoided it.

QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
GySgt Michael Burghardt is probably pretty representative of an American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine doing his job in Iraq.

No argument there- but 'pretty much representative' is not 'absolutely representative'; there are a significant number of our armed forces who do question the veracity of our splended little war in Iraq.
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
Doing a professional job in a place he probabaly doesn't want to be.  But his story, his service, and his sacrifices are largely ignored or drowned out by folks like Charlie Anderson.  Charlie Anderson ain't going to get people like Michael Burghardt out of Iraq tomorrow, next week, or even next year.  But telling Michael Burghardt's story let's people just like Michael Burghardt know what they are doing is not for naught.

And his story is being told. You've told his story here, and many people have seen it. Anderson's story is no less compelling, nor does it diminish Burghardt's in any way. What you seem to be implying is that Anderson's story lacks any validity because it flies in the face of what most serving in theater believe. I would posit with you that it is the soldiers in theater who are not hearing stories like Anderson's because, until recently, it was censored for the most part from their media.

QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 10 2006, 05:22 AM)
Tell me what you think is more important, telling stories which causes doubt to a trooper in harms way or telling him you appreciate the fine job he is doing?
*

I think he or she should hear both; if the truth comes out, so what? Look at what this Administration is trying to do to your farm: a Big Brother approach to food control. Look at all the bold-faced lies this President has told: no torture, gotta have a warrant to eavesdrop on Americans, mission accomplished, mushroom clouds- you know the litany. Are you saying that our soldiers are not entitled to hear this? Let them hear both sides and let the chips fall where they may.

I doubt that a trooper who begins to have doubts about his C in C will prove to be less brave or aggressive on the battlefield. He or she- as you have said many times before- is not there for their C of C, but for their bro's in arms, the guy beside them. The rest don't mean sh*t. Hu-rah!
flydangler
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 10 2006, 12:11 PM)
No one in this nation believes that every veteran is against the war; however nearly 60% of the general population is.
Methinks you may well be missin' a really important point. IMHO you've got to seperate the war from the post invasion occupation, eh?

With the perception now bein' much different than 'twas before the invasion methinks there're more military folks now questionin' whether or not the war was really necessary. Just the same, based on many things includin' personal communications with friends, family and aquaintances that are over there now or just recently returned, probably close to 90% of our military folks are viewin' what they're doin' now favorably. Even some of those who've come back seriously wounded, includin' amputees, wanna go back to complete what they see as a necessary mission to let the Iraqi people form an effective government and get back on their feet, able to function on their own.

Military folks in theater have voiced dismay at what seems to be negative reportin', includin' what they see as cheap shots bein' taken at 'em by some, includin' politicians over here, eh? They're upset that most of the good and positive things they've done and are doin' they don't see bein' reported much 'tall. That seems to leave 'em with the perception that many here are as against the warrior as they were against the war.

Methinks the Master Guns (Marine) is correct when he says those vets who've returned and voice doubt are bein' touted and heard much more than those with the opposin' views. 'Twould seem that's the way of the world when a PR war's bein' fought, and our press just seems to be enablin' this.

To me folks here're tryin' to oversimplify a really complicated situation. At times methinks they're tryin' to make square pegs fit in round holes and the result is confusin', to say the least.
winston smith
QUOTE(flydangler @ Feb 10 2006, 09:52 AM)
Methinks you may well be missin' a really important point. IMHO you've got to seperate the war from the post invasion occupation, eh? With the perception now bein' much different than 'twas before the invasion methinks there're more military folks now questionin' whether or not the war was really necessary. Just the same, based on many things includin' personal communications with friends, family and aquaintances that are over there now or just recently returned, probably close to 90% of our military folks are viewin' what they're doin' now favorably. Even some of those who've come back seriously wounded, includin' amputees, wanna go back to complete what they see as a necessary mission to let the Iraqi people form an effective government and get back on their feet, able to function on their own.

Military folks in theater have voiced dismay at what seems to be negative reportin', includin' what they see as cheap shots bein' taken at 'em by some, includin' politicians over here, eh? They're upset that most of the good and positive things they've done and are doin' they don't see bein' reported much 'tall. That seems to leave 'em with the perception that many here are as against the warrior as they were against the war.

Methinks the Master Guns (Marine) is correct when he says those vets who've returned and voice doubt are bein' touted and heard much more than those with the opposin' views. 'Twould seem that's the way of the world when a PR war's bein' fought, and our press just seems to be enablin' this.

This is an important point but does little to change the reality, and certainly not the perception. Dangler, I'm sure you've been reading the dialogue between Marine and me, so you're pretty cognizant of my position. As correct as you are in dialectially separating the two, it is mentally impossible for most ordinary Americans to do that- nor do I think they should. Hence, those in theater see the occupation as an important challenge to build a viable society by using the humanity within our culture, and which lives in most of our soldiers and marines.

Most Americans, however, are tainted by the whole Bush Administration narrative: the numerous catastrophic, if not criminal 'miscalulations' beyond just Iraq, the continued and seemingly endless bloodshed, the cavalier attitude with which we both entered the war and its management since, the huge expenses in materiel and money, stagnant wages, and domestic political mischief primarily within the Republican party; this is to name but a few. Thus, the schools built in Iraq are contrasted to the schools falling apart here; the consistant construction and destruction of Iraq infrastructure is constrasted with the relentless deterioration of our own infrastructure- all of that is the cacaphony in which the soldiers in theater must compete. Possibly that is unfair, but fairness is a relative thing; from my own perspective, I don't think it's that unfair in the first place. But that's just me.

QUOTE(flydangler @ Feb 10 2006, 09:52 AM)
To me folks here're tryin' to oversimplify a really complicated situation. At times methinks they're tryin' to make square pegs fit in round holes and the result is confusin', to say the least.
*

Most people here are unable to break this whole narrative into its smallest parts, so the only option left open to them is to simplify the whole into something that is comprehensible. Can't blame them for that, can you?

My thoughts? If this war- hell, if this nation- had been managed by this Administration with anything approaching competence, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I'd have voted for Bush in '04 because there would be no troops remaining in theater today.
flydangler
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 10 2006, 02:13 PM)
I'd have voted for Bush in '04
winston smith
QUOTE(flydangler @ Feb 10 2006, 11:35 AM)

*

Can't see your image, and it's not googling either- but the quote is just a little out of context, donchya think Dangler? C'mon, be nice... dancing.gif
winston smith
QUOTE(flydangler @ Feb 10 2006, 11:35 AM)

*

laugh.gif
OK Dangler, you caught me in a senior moment... I forgot that he's always been an idiot, and I don't ever vote for idiots... roflmbo.gif
Indianhead
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 8 2006, 06:18 AM)
Tell me something Winston, how many stories do you see about "Charlie Anderson" and the "Iraq Veterans against the War", let's say over a week's time?  When I google the two before mentioned quoted items I got 9,280  hits.

The vast majority of the American troops in Iraq will tell you the can related to Michael Burghardt much more readily than they can to Charlie Anderson.  From my experience of talking to folks who have been to Iraq the ratio would be at best less than 1 in 10 who would related to Charlie Anderson's views over Michael Burghardt's views.

So, have you wondered why someone who is less representative of the opinions gets so much more exposure, in this case by a tremendous amount?  Could it be the old axiom of propaganda that if something is repeated incessantantly it will be perceived as more true than something you hear only occassionaly?

I think every time someone mentions Charlie Anderson or somebody like him someone needs to point out what they are seeing is propaganda which does not represent the people Charlie Anderson purports to represent.
*


Actually it's probably because Anderson is different that he
evokes interest. Dog bites man, not news. Man bites dog, news.
And, I don't think Anderson purports to represent anyone but himself
and like-minded troops. But I suppose Joe Wilson and former CIA
officer Pillar could have given the response to the 2003 State of the Union
pro-war propaganda...if propaganda exposure is the goal.

QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 9 2006, 09:27 PM)
I may be because we are in a different and more cynical age Winston.  Perhaps from prior experiences the command structure does not want their troops subjected to the abuse they suffered at the hands of a prior antiwar movement.

During WW2 the armed forces did not block out Lord HawHaw or Tokyo Rose.  They have essentally the same objective as the current antiwar movement; to demoralize our military and convince them not to fight.  The difference; Lord HawHaw and Tokyo Rose represented the enemy, the troops expected the enemy to propagandize to demoralize them, what the troops expect from their homefront is support in what they have been ordered to do.  They neither want nor expect for their neighbors from back home telling them they are bad people for fighting at the orders of an evil regime. 

I think a good deal has been learned since our experience in Vietnam, I don't think they will allow a vocal minority to influence foreign policy after what was learned from the motives of that antiwar movement.
*


Tokyo Rose and the anti-war movement wanting the same things?
Pearl Harbor started one war, cherry-picking intelligence and
propaganda linking Iraq and 9/11 started the other. TR wanted
to help win the war for the Japanese, many peaceniks want to
end a war they believe is unjustified, some are against all war.

No one I knew in the anti-war movement resulting from
Vietnam wanted to demoralize troops, and the few I know
in the current anti-war movement don't want to demoralize
troops. In talking to some I believe they want to limit their
exposure to righteous causes, reduce the number of civilians
killed, restore the USA to an international position of respect
and save one heap of treasure being spent in Iraq. I don't
know any that argue with the invasion of Afghanistan.

I wonder what you consider "the motives of that (Vietnam-era)
antiwar movement"? I'd truly like to know, having taken part.


And, now perhaps the "vocal minority" are those who still calm
that there were good reasons to invade Iraq...at least most polls
show that to be the case. Most in government, excepting G.W.
Bush and his close administration pals, don't argue the invasion
was justified...just that we are here and where do we go now?

I think troops that believe in what is happening in Iraq
should have their positions heard. I will listen to their views,
but I don't always share them, any more than you share
Anderson's viewpoint.

IMO civilians, and former troops, who oppose the war don't
demoralize troops any more than repeatedly blown mission
statements, missed predictions of action, lack of planning for
occupation, and the overall mismanagement of the war by this
administration. They still don't have a concept of a
timetable to reach stated goals. Instead we see repeated tours,
stop-loss orders, and troops having their MOS changed to prop up
force strength.

That's why I'm against the war, but could still support a draft...
to support the troops...to spread out the sacrifice
across this country.

So far the mission statement is to stay in Iraq until Iraqis control
the ground to support the government we support. That sounds
a whole lot like the Vietnam mission statement I remember.

Yes, the enemy is different and the culture is different, but
the justification for the war is similarly questionable and the
open-ended committment is similarly vague. At least in
Vietnam troop strength was supported by a draft.

What I believe demoralizes troops, in the end, is telling them
their efforts will bring about a stable, western-style democracy
in Iraq, and that not happening. I hope a few years from now
a government led by Muslim clerics who are allied with Iran,
Syria and Palestine isn't the actual outcome of our troops' sacrifice.
If that happens then the question will return...what the hell were
we doing there...and how do we make sure it doesn't happen again?
Even if that happens I'll still support our troops and probably
counsel some, telling them they answered their country's call,
and in the end they fought for the troops beside them like we did.

I also pray that a secular, relatively free and peaceful society
emerges. Then our troops can justifiably claim victory in their war.

Nothing would please me more...and sadly...surprise me more.

BTW, I enjoy reading the give-and-take...it's what sets US apart. wink.gif
winston smith
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Feb 11 2006, 01:00 PM)
Actually it's probably because Anderson is different that he
evokes interest. Dog bites man, not news. Man bites dog, news.
And, I don't think Anderson purports to represent anyone but himself
and like-minded troops. But I suppose Joe Wilson and former CIA
officer Pillar could have given the response to the 2003 State of the Union
pro-war propaganda...if propaganda exposure is the goal.
Tokyo Rose and the anti-war movement wanting the same things?
Pearl Harbor started one war, cherry-picking intelligence and
propaganda linking Iraq and 9/11 started the other. TR wanted
to help win the war for the Japanese, many peaceniks want to
end a war they believe is unjustified, some are against all war.

No one I knew in the anti-war movement resulting from
Vietnam wanted to demoralize troops, and the few I know
in the current anti-war movement don't want to demoralize
troops. In talking to some I believe they want to limit their
exposure to righteous causes, reduce the number of civilians
killed, restore the USA to an international position of respect
and save one heap of treasure being spent in Iraq. I don't
know any that argue with the invasion of Afghanistan.

I wonder what you consider "the motives of that (Vietnam-era)
antiwar movement"? I'd truly like to know, having taken part.


And, now perhaps the "vocal minority" are those who still calm
that there were good reasons to invade Iraq...at least most polls
show that to be the case. Most in government, excepting G.W.
Bush and his close administration pals, don't argue the invasion
was justified...just that we are here and where do we go now?

I think troops that believe in what is happening in Iraq
should have their positions heard. I will listen to their views,
but I don't always share them, any more than you share
Anderson's viewpoint.

IMO civilians, and former troops, who oppose the war don't
demoralize troops any more than repeatedly blown mission
statements, missed predictions of action, lack of planning for
occupation, and the overall mismanagement of the war by this
administration. They still don't have a concept of a
timetable to reach stated goals. Instead we see repeated tours,
stop-loss orders, and troops having their MOS changed to prop up
force strength.

That's why I'm against the war, but could still support a draft...
to support the troops...to spread out the sacrifice
across this country.

So far the mission statement is to stay in Iraq until Iraqis control
the ground to support the government we support. That sounds
a whole lot like the Vietnam mission statement I remember.

Yes, the enemy is different and the culture is different, but
the justification for the war is similarly questionable and the
open-ended committment is similarly vague. At least in
Vietnam troop strength was supported by a draft.

What I believe demoralizes troops, in the end, is telling them
their efforts will bring about a stable, western-style democracy
in Iraq, and that not happening. I hope a few years from now
a government led by Muslim clerics who are allied with Iran,
Syria and Palestine isn't the actual outcome of our troops' sacrifice.
If that happens then the question will return...what the hell were
we doing there...and how do we make sure it doesn't happen again?
Even if that happens I'll still support our troops and probably
counsel some, telling them they answered their country's call,
and in the end they fought for the troops beside them like we did.

I also pray that a secular, relatively free and peaceful society
emerges. Then our troops can justifiably claim victory in their war.

Nothing would please me more...and sadly...surprise me more.

BTW, I enjoy reading the give-and-take...it's what sets US apart.  wink.gif
*

Indianhead, I'm glad you joined the conversation. I think you and I pretty much agree on the reasons for us as individuals being against the war. I agree with Marine that this is a very complicated issue, yet I feel Marine still subscribes to the dichotomy: if you ain't for it, you're agin' it. It's a Rovian Newspeak sobriquet, meant to keep the nation divided. and it has worked. Too well!

Like you, I had no more of a problem going into Afghanistan that someone in WWII going into Tokyo. They coulda turned the whole nation into a big glass bowl that glows in the night and no one would have given a goddam. I wish we'd of finished it instead of entering this war of choice, this fool's escapade.

Way back in the day when we first crossed over from Kuwait, there was an article somewhere about our expectations. Rummy couldn't conceive of a civil war followed by the creation of three separate nations, with one aligned tightly with Iran. His words were something to the effect that, were it to turn out that way, our mission would be a failure; anything above that would be a success. Talking about setting a low bar- and then still not clearing it! confused.gif

Well guess what, Rummy... thud.gif
winston smith
QUOTE(Marine @ Feb 8 2006, 04:18 AM)
The vast majority of the American troops in Iraq will tell you they can relate to Michael Burghardt much more readily than they can to Charlie Anderson.  From my experience of talking to folks who have been to Iraq the ratio would be at best less than 1 in 10 who would related to Charlie Anderson's views over Michael Burghardt's views.

*

How well do you think our armed forces in Iraq will feel when Ed Shultz tells them something like this- something that O'Rielly, Limbaugh, or Hannity would either lie about or not mention at all. Do you think the men and women in theater have a right to know what their C in C really thinks of their service and dedication?

From e Pluribus Meda blog:
    Unemployment Rate Among Veterans Under Age Twenty-Five: 15%
    That's "more than twice the rate for the same demographic in the general population." And 1/3 of our veterans under 25 doesn't have health insurance.

    Annual Medical Budget Increase Needed by the VA to Cover Rising Medical Costs: 13%. And the chances of them getting it: 0%. The VA got a paltry 1% increase in 2005; less than 3% in 2006. "In June of last year, the VA stated that due to greatly increased costs, its 2006 medical budget fell nearly $2 billion short of its immediate needs."


And you know who finally shamed the Republican Congress into giving the VA the money it needed? THE DEMOCRATS, LED BY KERRY!

Bush thinks they are all suckers, every one of them- you know that, don't you? He has about as much compassion for those under his command as he did for the 300,000 people swimming up-river from Hurricane Katrina.

Remember this prediction?

Former Chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee Richard Perle:
    I believe, and I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest, that most Iraqis will regard us as liberators, and it will not take anything like that number of troops [several hundred thousand] to maintain peace and order in Iraq.

    ...It may not go smoothly as we all hope it will, but I don't believe you will get civil war. There is no indication from the people we talked to who are coming out of Iraq all the time and people who are talking to Iraqis. There are hundreds, thousands of such conversations. There are differences, to be sure, among these groups, but it's not like Bosnia. It's not as if they have been destroying each other for many years. They haven't, and I don't believe they will. -- Hannity and Colmes, February 28, 2003
And this?

Former Deputy Secretary of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz:
    The oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. Now, there are a lot of claims on that money, but...we are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. -- Testimony to the US House Appropriations Committee, March 27, 2003
Iraq hasn't pumped $50 billion since the invasion.

I think this is much closer to the reality they are facing in Iraq, in spite of the incredible amount of good works being done by our men and women in uniform. IVAW has a voice no less valid than Michael Burghardt, but the IVAW is moreover a voice of realilty; Bubble Boy Bush and his Bumbling Bumpkins wouldn't know reality if it flew in on a rocket, and couldn't handle it if they caught it in the first place.
winston smith
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 11 2006, 08:21 PM)
How well do you think our armed forces in Iraq will feel when Ed Shultz tells them something like this- something that O'Rielly, Limbaugh, or Hannity would either lie about or not mention at all.  Do you think the men and women in theater have a right to know what their C in C really thinks of their service and dedication?

From e Pluribus Meda blog:
    Unemployment Rate Among Veterans Under Age Twenty-Five: 15%
    That's "more than twice the rate for the same demographic in the general population." And 1/3 of our veterans under 25 doesn't have health insurance.

    Annual Medical Budget Increase Needed by the VA to Cover Rising Medical Costs: 13%.  And the chances of them getting it: 0%. The VA got a paltry 1% increase in 2005; less than 3% in 2006. "In June of last year, the VA stated that due to greatly increased costs, its 2006 medical budget fell nearly $2 billion short of its immediate needs."


And you know who finally shamed the Republican Congress into giving the VA the money it needed? THE DEMOCRATS, LED BY KERRY!

Bush thinks they are all suckers, every one of them- you know that, don't you?  He has about as much compassion for those under his command as he did for the 300,000 people swimming up-river from Hurricane Katrina.

Remember this prediction?

Former Chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee Richard Perle:
    I believe, and I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest, that most Iraqis will regard us as liberators, and it will not take anything like that number of troops [several hundred thousand] to maintain peace and order in Iraq.

    ...It may not go smoothly as we all hope it will, but I don't believe you will get civil war. There is no indication from the people we talked to who are coming out of Iraq all the time and people who are talking to Iraqis. There are hundreds, thousands of such conversations. There are differences, to be sure, among these groups, but it's not like Bosnia. It's not as if they have been destroying each other for many years. They haven't, and I don't believe they  will. -- Hannity and Colmes, February 28, 2003
And this?

Former Deputy Secretary of Defense, Paul Wolfowitz:
    The oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. Now, there are a lot of claims on that money, but...we are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. -- Testimony to the US House Appropriations Committee, March 27, 2003
Iraq hasn't pumped $50 billion since the invasion.

I think this is much closer to the reality they are facing in Iraq, in spite of the incredible amount of good works being done by our men and women in uniform.  IVAW has a voice no less valid than Michael Burghardt, but the IVAW is moreover a voice of realilty; Bubble Boy Bush and his Bumbling Bumpkins wouldn't know reality if it flew in on a rocket, and couldn't handle it if they caught it in the first place.
*

To add a little bit more about what this Administration thinks of its men-in-arms:
QUOTE(BobGieger.com)
Follow-up on Soldier Charged for Armor
On Wednesday, I told you about the 25-year-old Army officer who had been forced by the military to fork over $700 for the blood-soaked armor taken from his body when he was wounded in Iraq and who was told he would not be discharged unless he paid the Army for the lost equipment.

I’m happy to report that bad publicity, coupled with pressure from the two Democratic Senators from the soldier’s native West Virginia, have resulted in the Army reimbursing First Lt. William "Eddie" Rebrook for money that, by his own admission, he had to borrow from his buddies to pay for the body armor and other gear he had lost in battle

Told of the refund, Rebrook said simply: "How kind of them," but added "I still love the Army, loved being a soldier and loved my unit.”

Let me ask you, Marine, do you think word will get back to Iraq about Lt. Rebrook's situation? Do you think some grunt pounding the sand in Anwar Province feels real good about the fact that his parents might have to cough up some dough for equipment abandoned while the medics tried to save his life- and lost?

To me, the best part of this article is the last sentence. It really proves your point: our soldiers and marines are a dedicated group who believe in each other to the death. It is really disheartening that their C in C does not have the same honor and dignity as those he commands. But how could he? He's a coward of the worst kind- afraid to go himself, but eager to send others. What a bastard!
Marine
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 12 2006, 12:14 AM)
To add a little bit more about what this Administration thinks of its men-in-arms:
QUOTE(BobGieger.com)
Follow-up on Soldier Charged for Armor
On Wednesday, I told you about the 25-year-old Army officer who had been forced by the military to fork over $700 for the blood-soaked armor taken from his body when he was wounded in Iraq and who was told he would not be discharged unless he paid the Army for the lost equipment.

I’m happy to report that bad publicity, coupled with pressure from the two Democratic Senators from the soldier’s native West Virginia, have resulted in the Army reimbursing First Lt. William "Eddie" Rebrook for money that, by his own admission, he had to borrow from his buddies to pay for the body armor and other gear he had lost in battle

Told of the refund, Rebrook said simply: "How kind of them," but added "I still love the Army, loved being a soldier and loved my unit.”

Let me ask you, Marine, do you think word will get back to Iraq about Lt. Rebrook's situation? Do you think some grunt pounding the sand in Anwar Province feels real good about the fact that his parents might have to cough up some dough for equipment abandoned while the medics tried to save his life- and lost?

To me, the best part of this article is the last sentence. It really proves your point: our soldiers and marines are a dedicated group who believe in each other to the death. It is really disheartening that their C in C does not have the same honor and dignity as those he commands. But how could he? He's a coward of the worst kind- afraid to go himself, but eager to send others. What a bastard!
*


Seems the last I heard his C.O. was cutting through the red tape on the lost armor. It's not the first time somebody got screwed for not dotting an i or crossing a t.

Sometime's it works the other way too, I remember once checking out of one duty station I took my footlocker with all my gear inside it down to supply to get my chit signed, the Sergeant on duty checked off everything, signed it, and I returned back to the barracks to clean my personal stuff out of my wall locker only to discover I still had all my 782 gear, gas mask and field jacket still in my wall locker.

In another move I turn in everything and the fellow checking it off put one check between two items, I turned both items in but before the Sergeant Major would sign off on me I had to pay for a piss pot helmet.

I guess it sort of evened out because the field jacket I got to keep made a swell Christmas present to my Father in law.

I don't see how you come up with the idea it was Bush's fault, folks have been getting screwed over by supply for about as long as Armies have been in existence
winston smith
QUOTE
Seems the last I heard his C.O. was cutting through the red tape on the lost armor.  It's not the first time somebody got screwed for not dotting an i or crossing a t.

Sometime's it works the other way too, I remember once checking out of one duty station I took my footlocker with all my gear inside it down to supply to get my chit signed, the Sergeant on duty checked off everything, signed it, and I returned back to the barracks to clean my personal stuff out of my wall locker only to discover I still had all my 782 gear, gas mask and field jacket still in my wall locker.

In another move I turn in everything and the fellow checking it off put one check between two items, I turned both items in but before the Sergeant Major would sign off on me I had to pay for a piss pot helmet.

I guess it sort of evened out because the field jacket I got to keep made a swell Christmas present to my Father in law.

I don't see how you come up with the idea it was Bush's fault, folks have been getting screwed over by supply for about as long as Armies have been in existence
*

Follow-up: in the end, both Senators and the soldier's congressman had to get involved in order to get DoD to refund his $$$. By the way, you can find literally hundreds of these types of stories: DoD not releasing bodies until unearned back-pay (the difference between the amount paid to the soldier between his last check and the day he was KIA), severely wounded vets having to pay for specialized medical care, prosthetics, etc.

It's all part of Bush's overall view of our warriors: people in the military are chumps. And now they are HIS chumps. He felt that way as a coke-head coward in the Texas Air National Guard, and nothing has changed since. "Let the chumps get killed in Viet Nam while I party hardy in New Orleans."

Look at what he has done: no body armor, no up-armored humvees, not enough boots on the ground- again, you know the litany. Or to quote Rummy, "You go with the army you've got..." forgettting that they didn't have to go until it was an army prepared for what they were going to get.

Sen. Dodd gave a pretty good address on the floor of the Senate this morning, and I think he puts in a nutshell the universe of George W. Bush the Warrior King:

QUOTE
Mr. President, I noticed earlier that our friend and colleague, the Chairman of the Finance Committee, referred to today's proceedings as akin to the movie “Groundhog Day.” He stated that this is the third time the Senate has debated this bill in one form or another. I appreciated his discussion. I certainly can understand his frustration. He has worked hard on this legislation and would like to see it move on to conference. In fact, I think his reference to that movie is an apt one. The movie “Groundhog Day” reminds us that sometimes in life we get another chance to get it right. That’s why we’re here today – to hopefully get it right when it comes to paying for urgent priorities like the health and safety of our troops and veterans.

Mr. President, our nation should have few higher priorities than taking care of our military veterans who have served in harm’s way to defend our freedom.

When this bill last came to the floor two weeks ago, I offered an amendment that would have provided crucial health funds—in a fiscally responsible manner—to our wounded troops returning home. Tax legislation passed in 2003 currently calls for spending $43 billion over the next five years on capital gains and dividends tax breaks for individuals making more than $1 million a year. Instead of spending this money on the wealthiest 0.2 percent of the population, my amendment would have used these resources to meet our veterans’ health needs—estimated by Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz to be $18.9 billion over the next five years—establish a $1 billion trust fund for health facilities treating wounded and disabled veterans returning home, and reduce the deficit by approximately $23 billion.

Regrettably, this body did not approve my amendment. We did, however, unanimously approve a substitute offered by my colleague from Iowa that still provides these needed funds—just without paying for them, as I and many other of our colleagues would have preferred.

The motion I offer today offers my colleagues a chance to say, “Yes, we support the Grassley amendment—and we believe the health needs of our troops and veterans must be met in a responsible manner.”

The House of Representatives has proposed not only keeping in place the scheduled dividends and capital gains tax breaks enacted in 2003, but adding two more years of them. My motion makes no statement about these tax breaks for 99.8 percent of Americans. It deals with just a small—but costly—subset of the capital gains and dividends tax breaks the House bill has proposed extending.

My motion would put this body on record as saying the funds for veterans that we passed should not be sacrificed to pay for additional capital gains and dividends tax breaks for individuals making more than $1 million.

Under the tax breaks of 2001 and 2003 alone, individuals in this narrow segment of the population have received more than $125 billion in benefits so far. Meanwhile, our soldiers and veterans are being told to go without essential items—like body armor and the health care that they need and deserve.

The motion does not ask for any of that $125 billion back, Mr. President. It simply acknowledges the reality that in a time of record budget deficits, we need to make some choices. Do we provide more tax breaks to a small group that has already received so much since this Administration took office, as the House of Representatives proposes to do? Or do we meet the needs of a nation at war in properly taking care of our wounded and disabled veterans, as the funding approved by this body would do?

Over 2,200 men and women in uniform have been killed in Iraq and over 16,000 have been severely wounded. But instead of addressing their needs fully and adequately, this Administration has under-funded veterans’ medical care. In fact, last year, the Administration devised an FY 2006 VA budget that could only handle 23,000 veterans returning from Iraq. This number was drastically too low, and the VA had to scramble to meet the needs of over 103,000 Iraq veterans on top of its already existing patient-load.

Congress was forced to intervene in the middle of the year, and in June approved an emergency spending bill that provided an additional $1.3 billion to address shortfalls in the VA health budget. Now, I must stress that I have the greatest respect and admiration for former VA Secretary Anthony Principi and the current occupant of that post, James Nicholson. They have led their Department with great distinction and continue to do the best they can. But they have had a difficult task, since the current occupants of the White House have repeatedly provided them with very, very limited resources.

We cannot and should not address veterans’ needs on the cheap again. According to some experts, this year, the VA health system is likely to face another shortfall of $2.6 billion due to the Administration’s drastically low veterans’ budget. And for all of the President’s rhetoric about supporting our troops, I remain concerned that his Administration’s actions are not matching its deeds.

On the whole, I commend the President for finally proposing an increase of $1.9 billion in the VA budget for fiscal year 2007. But as in previous years, the Administration’s priorities are wholly misplaced. In spite of the proposed increase, the President’s 2007 request cuts the VA hospital construction budget by $576 million. To make matters worse, the Administration’s proposed budget would impose a doubling of veterans’ prescription drug co-pays and assess a new $250 enrollment fee for thousands of veterans.

As I have mentioned on this floor before, the situation has gotten so dire that now our military personnel and veterans are having to rely on the charity of private citizens to build critical health facilities to meet their needs. According to the Departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs, our military personnel are suffering inordinate numbers of injuries resulting in brain damage, spinal injuries, and amputations. About 20 percent of those injured have suffered major head or spinal injuries and an additional 6 percent are amputees. And without financial support, our veterans are actually having to depend on the charity of private citizens to finance the construction of major rehabilitation centers for the most seriously wounded.

The Bush Administration is simply not meeting its obligations to those wounded in Iraq -- a war that has returned home amputees at twice the rate of Vietnam. And so, instead, the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund is raising $37 million to build the Intrepid Center at Fort Sam Houston next year. It will be manned and operated by VA and Army personnel, but is currently not expected to receive a dime from the U.S. Treasury for its construction, because the White House would rather dole out scarce resources to the wealthiest Americans who have already received so much.

I remind my colleagues that the funding approved by this body—which, without the support of this motion, I fear will be wiped out in conference—will allow critical facilities like this one to receive the investments they deserve from our nation’s government.

Moreover, it will create a trust fund to allow private and state facilities that provide medical treatment to veterans to receive federal funds as they meet our veterans’ critical health care needs— in addition to facilities such as the Intrepid Center, it will allow vital hospitals and veterans residences such as the Connecticut State Veterans home at Rocky Hill the opportunity to tap into vital federal resources as they strain to meet the increasing demands of caring for our veterans—young as well as old.

Mr. President, I cannot stress the importance of these programs enough— our veterans need the critical care provided at our state veterans’ nursing homes, and regrettably, this Administration is choosing to put scarce resources into more high-income tax breaks rather than address our veterans’ essential living needs.

As a matter of fact, last year, the President actually proposed cutting off states’ access to federal funds to build and maintain state veterans’ homes. It took an act of this Congress to reverse the President’s budget proposal.

And this year, although the Department has a list of 129 state veterans projects approved for receiving federal grants for new construction and improvements, 2006 allocations only provided enough for 13 of these 129 state projects throughout the country. The proposed 2007 budget would “flatline” this program at $85 million, providing funding for another 10-13 projects, and still leaving over a hundred state veterans’ facilities looking for additional resources.

The funding approved by this body— and supported by my motion— would address these shortfalls, allowing state homes to tap into a trust fund to provide more funding for construction that has already been approved by the VA.

In light of these facts, I urge my colleagues to consider the consequences of not acting today. This vote is about priorities. Do we meet the health needs of our veterans and our troops? Or do we continue to provide more tax breaks for those who neither need nor seek such largesse?

Supporting the Senate position on this issue is the least we can do to show our full backing of America’s men and women in uniform. We owe these heroes at least that much. I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of this motion to instruct conferees. Stand up for America’s heroes as they continue to defend our freedoms at home and abroad.


As far as the armed forces screwing things up once in a while, a true story:

When I was at Travis in '66, an A3C MP got a paycheck for $345,000 (I think that was the amount- whatever, it was 100x his base pay). He returned the check and had to get an advance for the month. Next month he got a check for $34,500 and again he returned it, but had trouble getting another advance because the first had not been repaid. His CO had to go to the base commander to get it fixed. The next month the airman got a check for $3,450,000. He sent the paymaster a cashier check for repayment of the $690 advance, went AWOL and, to the best of my knowledge, never came back! laugh.gif
flydangler
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 13 2006, 04:35 PM)
By the way, you can find literally hundreds of these types of stories: DoD not releasing bodies
Not releasin' bodies? Methinks I ain't seen one 'bout that yet, and I'm pretty sure it'd get my attention, eh?

Can you please point me in the general direction of any stories regardin' bodies not bein' released to the next of kin 'cause of payment problems? I looked, but couldn't find any.
winston smith
The Carpetbagger
QUOTE(flydangler @ Feb 13 2006, 02:17 PM)
Not releasin' bodies? Methinks I ain't seen one 'bout that yet, and I'm pretty sure it'd get my attention, eh?

Can you please point me in the general direction of any stories regardin' bodies not bein' released to the next of kin 'cause of payment problems? I looked, but couldn't find any.
*

my bad, dangler- I was thinking of the guy whose body was shipped out on a cargo plane to San Diego because the DoD didn't want to pay the cost of giving him military honors on a military flight from Dover to Miramar.

Just something else to add to the fire: Bush doesn't like to attend the funerals of his casualties. The quote below is from The Carpetbagger and, while the article is from 2003, it hasn't changed one bit. When is the last time he went to Walter Reed for anything more than a photo op? When's the last time the MoFo went there, period? When I Google "President goes to Walter Reed," the most recent is Dec. 13, 2003- 4 months before we went into Iraq. When's the last time he went to Dover to see the coffins so respectfully taken off those Starlifters with so much dignity and honor? When is the last time that cowardly bastard handed a grieving widow, mother, father, sister or brother a folded flag?

No Dangler, this sleezeball of a chickenhawk coward pretender to the throne doesn't give a flying frick about any of the souls he's placed in harm's way. He wanted his damned war and, by God, he was going to get it! Every president has to have a war if he wants to be in the history books. Not exactly a quote, but those are Shrubs words, not mine.

This is what one of Reagan's staffers said of Chimp:
    "The commander in chief should publicly honor the individual lives sacrificed in war," John Roberts wrote. "He should show his respect in front of the television cameras. A nation is a community, and the lives that are lost belong not just to their families, but to us all. As the only political figure who represents the whole nation, the duty of commemorating these deaths belongs uniquely to the president." He added, "Skipping memorial services makes the president look weak. It creates the impression that he values his own political standing above the lost lives of servicemen and women."
BussFlash has quite a few other indignities suffered by our returning vets.
flydangler
QUOTE(winston smith @ Feb 13 2006, 08:19 PM)
my bad, dangler- I was thinking of the guy whose body was shipped out on a cargo plane to San Diego because the DoD didn't want to pay the cost of giving him military honors on a military flight from Dover to Miramar.
Yup, your bad! Methinks mistatin' what happened in the case of transportation of the remains of Army Specialist Mathew Holley who'd been killed in Iraq, as we discussed in this thread, is your bad too, eh? Do I sense a pattern of mistatements here?
QUOTE
Just something else to add