Hi

pls don't flame me too much for this but i am now at the point where i really think kerry has moved on.

several recent postings have led me to this conclusion:

1. the article from one of the on-the-ground lawyers, indicating it's up to THE PEOPLE to ask for recounts; in other words, don't expect kerry to speak up or unconcede;

2. kerry's own interview on new england tv, check the thread if you haven't heard it yet; i know some people were reading hopeful messages between the lines; i heard the message of an honorable man, who's recognized his defeat;

3. the message being sent out by the DCCC, as posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=203x57304

4. kerry's concession was just that and i don't think we can expect him to unconcede unless some major evidence is turned up. but if there were to be fraud, that'll take months to establish and to investigate...

5. bev harris is working on the part of the people and is not technically related to kerry, is she?

if any of you have proof to the contrary for what i am concluding from recent developments, let me know.

i'll be only too happy to be proven wrong. i'm still a kerry supporter but i am also getting to be more realistic about things.

If its over, then we are in a world of hurt and trouble.

Its over? Think again: Kerry the "devout" flip flopper said his vote totals put him at only 50,000 behind concurrently, and they found massive voting machine troubles in new hampshire.....The investigation with criminal consequences, is not only not over, its blowing wide apart....

I didn't say "its over". I said "IF it's over"... we are in a world of hurt and trouble.

NOTHING IS OVER ! NOTHING !

It is not really up to JK at all and HE is not seeking the recounts. Like it or not, at this point he is merely along for the ride. If somehow Ohio's election results are overturned
then Kerry would be President-elect. The concession, as I'm sure you know, is irrelevant... unless JK declines acceptance (and then I don't know what would be the next course of action... maybe Edwards would be President-elect).

Are the election results likely to turnaround ? Who knows. But two weeks ago would anyone have thought we'd find the massive errors / fraud in Ohio. Who would have thought we'd have a statewide recount ? So anything can happen.

JK is probably moving on for his own mental, physical, and political well-being. He is probably tired of the emotional rollercoaster and doesn't want to get his hopes up just to have them dashed. But, if and when the election results change, he'll be back... I'd bet on it.

I'm holding on to hope because whether it's for Kerry to assume the presidency, Bush to be exposed as a danger and fraud or loosening the right's grip on power, the end result is the same--democracy is restored.

You are doing EXACTLY what these criminals want you to do. We need to back them into a corner. This group is so use to getting their own way all the time and its because no one will stand up to them! I can handle this defeat if I am confident that my vote and every other vote counted and we just lost. We then regroup and go on. But I'll be d----d if I'm going to allow this group of thieves to tell me to accept what's happened and me to just cave. You are playing right into their hands!!

Correct, nobody's going along with anything. What one word Kerry says also means something else, and remember the fight is getting absolutely brutal because the Civil Unions groups are taking back all the logs from these state's computers.

I agree.....

That's why I posted what I posted -- to make people think about what we are facing if we give up.

We can't give up. No choice.

i didn't say anything about THE PEOPLE requesting that their vote be counted, now did i?

i was just reflecting on KERRY's stance and from what i have seen and heard lately, it seems to me he is willing to move on...

if you've read my posts, you will know that i was one of the first ones here to suggest that kerry was throwing up a smokescreen and really was investigating under the radar.

but i now believe

1. that he honestly believed he lost, when he conceded

2. that he got real bad advice from the dnc (i, for one, heard reich, former clinton cabinet member, on airamerica the morning of nov 3 and he was clearly pushing kerry to concede)

read the thread above, the dccc message sent out to dems and you'll see how uplifting that is.

instead of turning against me, why don't you contact them or vri@dnc.org and ask them what's going on.

and, again, if someone has proof that what i was saying ABOUT KERRY in my post above is incorrect, pls post it here

i haven't given up hope altogether but i'm pretty close...

voila, here's the form email from the dccc

From: DCCC <mailto:dccc@DCCC.ORG >
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:57 AM


We understand your concerns and frustrations, and recognize that there have been many voting irregularities. Several Democratic Congressmen have requested and investigation from the General Accounting Office, as described in this story among many others:

http://gcn.com/vol1_no1/daily-updates/27882-1.html

The request goes as far as we can go, since despite the many problems, no proof of organized and wide scale voter fraud has become apparent. As New York Representative Jerry Nadler noted, “At this point it does not look like there are going to be so many votes it would overturn the election… But if there are problems, we want to correct them.”

Again, we hope that you’ll stick with us, and you will be certain to hear from us if the investigation turns anything up. Thanks, sincerely,

DCCC Action Team


(posted in the thread above)

well, kerry might not want the job but edwards does.
something to keep in mind.

BG, I am definitely not turning against you. I just think since you are that close to giving up, then you are in better shape than most of us. You can just sit back and let things play out without getting too upset with the result if its not positive. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I, on the other hand, feel that democracy is truly in trouble and 4 more years of this clown may set this country back 30 years. If the results stay the same, I will NEVER trust the election process in this country ever again and I'm pretty sure I won't be alone.

I never did when he conceded so quik.

Oh, it's going to be far worse than that!

to pkess50

i'm not suggesting ANYTHING ABOUT you or anyone else SITTING BACK AND RELAXING. read my posts: they are ABOUT KERRY'S STANCE, not about what THE PEOPLE or you or anyone else do.

why is it so hard to understand that i am voicing an opinion ABOUT KERRY?

here's the dccc email: dccc@DCCC.ORG and vri@dnc.org

Widespread voter fraud and tampering is getting proven very quick, I wouldn't count on anything the "press" says, especially about the DNC, as final.

and, here again, is the "uplifting" dccc email:

I think we need to disregard Kerry's stance at this point. He is trying to stay above the fray. When the fraud is exposed and THEN he doesn't respond, then we all have something to be concerned with.

The DCCC wants to cover their own butts. They are afraid that if they scream "scandal" and no real scandal emerges, then they will lose the respect of the general public.

What they don't seem to realize is that there is very little left to lose. Democracy is just about shot in this country. We are headed straight for disaster at multiple levels.

Disclaimer: I don't want disaster to happen. If somehow, through some miracle, Bush turned things around, I would be happy. But I just cannot see that happening, given the course that has been set. I just see things getting worse and worse, and in a very rapid manner.

exposing the potential fraud make take months, if not longer, and it'll be too late for kerry then; just as it was for gore when it finally was established he got the most votes a year later....

Again, all nonsense. The fraud and stealing has already been uncovered in several precincts showing tapes not matching, poll rosters not matching, and tabulators being tampered with.

It may take a while to unearth all the perpetrators and their hands tied to the scene, but it certainly won't be some grueling effort with the top experts involved. I think you underestimate their chances, and don't understand this is about full reform: not some candidate

Kerry has proven a couple of things to me in this campaign. One he is a fighter and two, he is very smart. He has put too much into this battle starting with being such a huge underdog, winning the nomination and actually WINNING the presidency to give up this easy. I have alot of confidence that he has studied what happened to Gore and knows exactly what he's doing. He knows that 2008 is a long shot for him and THIS is his only chance. Have faith. I think he is going to make us very proud that he was our guy.

to activisims: i'm not talking about bev harris in this thread...

sorry, but i, like others here, am interested in what kerry is up to!

Others have pointed out why Kerry is playing it smart. Maybe you should give it a rest. We believe Kerry is doing all he can --- even if it's behind the scenes.

don't flame me, contact the dnc and vri@dnc.org

Yes... not back 30 years... more like 228 years or so.




Exactly... just trying to keep above the conspiracy theories. Let us look like the nutcases if things don't go well. "We" are the expendable army in this fight... we can take the hit with no consequence.

AND...


To BG... Don't give up. There is little to lose at this point and potentially much to gain. Besides, the fight must go on to rescue our nation from the clutches of the corrupt despicable hold of the GOP.

I think you're reading some things backwards, it looks to me like he hAD given up but hasn't now. He can't just come out and say things at this point like a lot of people want, it'd be all downside except for giving some people an emotional boost. What you read as defeatism by a lawyer of his was actually as strong a statement as a lawyer could make at this point and was calling for public support, you read it as giving up. What do you expect Kerry to say before the count is even completed? He has to play it carefully to avoid some tricks, do you remember 2000?

After more thought maybe he is afraid republicans are known for impeaching democrats. Govenors and sitting members. They rig elections they could of riged
south decota maybe they will rig him up next time.

Bush fires anybody who speaks out. Maybe he wants to but is playing it cool.

You know cool.

The guy's far too smart for that, he has his own interests in mind. I wouldn't bank on anything the number one "so called liberal flip flopper" saying is final.

I went to keith Olbermann's website http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

The byline of tonight;s program is: Wednesday, 8 p.m. ET
Post-election stress trauma: Why can't Kerry supporters just get over it? Keith counts down the reasons.

Maybe Kerry will surprise us; or some news organization will change their mind and call ohio for kerry. otherwise, it appears that bush will be inaugurated in jan '05.

if this election is proven to have been stolen; then it will take the efforts of a new woodward/bernstein team to unmask the fraud.

right now it does not appear that broadcast journalism will devote the resources to uncover any potential fraud.

from what I have read so far indicates that the chatter on the internet is fueling interest in the print media.

Oh, boy, I hope Keith is still on our side. That blurb
doesn't sound good, does it?

I am sure it has been an agonizing decission for Kerry to decide whether to move on or fight for the vote counts. However, not unlike during the election, he is dammed if does, and dammed if he doesn't.

I do think the consequences of doing nothing in the vote count will be just as damaging to him as doing something about it. Right now, Cobb and Nader are actively pursuing vote recounts and investigations in Ohio and New Hampshire, others are making efforts in Florida and various other states. The 3rd party candidates are struggling to come up with the money for the recount--while Kerry is sitting on $51 million dollars left from the fundraising efforts of this past election.

If Cobb and Nader are successful in discovering that a Bush win is questionable--there will be many Kerry supporters who will be angry that Kerry was silent during the investigation and did not offer financial help for recounts.

This is probably what Cobb and Nader hope for--they will come out as the fighters and heroes--and the rank and file democrats will be disappointed in the DNC leadership and Kerry for not joining in on the fight. This could give credibility to their 3rd party efforts and many Kerry supporters may move toward the more progressive parties in 2008.

However, if Kerry was to get actively involved in the recount and spend the necessary dollars, and it doesnt show a clear Bush win even with voting irregularities, Kerry could look foolish. Considering he conceded early-to jump in now will solidify the republican's claims that he is a flip flopper.

I would say to Kerry--go for the vote count--give it all you've got no matter what the cost (not to exceed $51 million) and take your chances. The reputation of flip flopper is not so bad--better that than "weak or wus".

He hasn't been given all the new information yet, just wait when he reads all the stats I sent him. Did he turn his back on us? Don't think so.

Rhandi Rhodes is on Air America now. www.airamericaradio.com

I don't know what Kerry should or shouldn't do. It may be that he's doing just the right thing at this time.

Our only REAL hope is that the people of this country wake up and throw out this corrupt administration, repudiate the harmful policies of the republican party, and forge ahead towards a reasonable future.

This may take some time. How much I can't say.

I think we're all just getting restless waiting for something BIG to turn this thing around. It appears it IS happening. We just have to be patient. It's been a long campaign.

Here's your answer: Stay low and investigate all the evidence behind the doors

The people are crooks, and lying thieves, you think they would appreciate public outbursts? Forget that, just like the irancontra/BCCI scandal where he wasn't doing anything back then, right...He said the fight is not over and mentioned hint he's 50,000 votes behind figure out what that means. Unconceding puts the ball in the enemy's court, when the civil rights groups and activists are standing up attacking them from every direction and unearthing the numbers.

Well isn't that what we think is happening? Those of us who don't have the resources or authority to investigate, have called our representatives,and signed petitions.

Now we just wait and see.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I know I have not conceded this election. I have been passing out flyers for blackboxvoting at schools, posting them on cars, bulletin boards at businesses, etc. I will not give B*sh another 4 years without a major fight. I hope everyone else here will do the same. You can download a copy of some of the fliers for blackboxvoting here:

http://voterfraud2004.tripod.com/

some of us are close to losing confidence in the dnc (mind you, that's not the same as losing confidence in kerry).

it's just unbelievable how they've managed to confirm the impression that they are part of the problem....

just the tone and content of the email, see above!

I don't think they are any more a part of the problem than the whole political establishment is. I'm sure they are doing everything they can.

My main problem with the Democratic party is that they seem to not have fully anticipated just HOW corrupt the present republican leadership IS.

This has been CLEAR to me since 1994! When "The Newt" Put his "Contract ON America" out for public consumption. The Hunting of Bill and Hillary Clinton should have woken them up. The fiasco of 2000...etc!

It seems to me the republicans are always one step LOWER than the Dems give them credit for!

Interestingly, the effective way to win a war, is not go at it alone, but let two sides turn on eachother, involve the mess, and then attack from behind


How Troy defeated Greece in two days.

Not sure I understand what you're talking about???

Did you ever see the film called "Troy"?

It was thought the capital of the country had won, but Troy used this tactic to their advantage, called the trojan horse, and in the end the land was freed.

here's another point of view: cobb talking about kerry, using extremely harsh words. it's sad to see it has come to this...

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http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...t=0&#entry45196

The investigation keeps expanding and digging deeper, the more people involved, the less likely it will be covered up,or dismissed.

Correct, I think any backlash from a few independants is nothing compared to what it would have been in public.

Isn't that the truth!!!