Here's the link:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/147/story_14730_1.html


Also on the Beliefnet site: "After Arafat"--3 articles with 3 different views, by
M.A. Muqtedar Khan
Michael Lerner
Arthur Hertzberg

Jay, i'm not sure what YOUR take on the Rabbi's comments are, but here's my reply:

imho, it is ENTIRELY possible to criticize Israel without a hint of anti-Semitism.

for instance, i've been part of the 'Free Tibet' crowd for years, and i don't like Kim Jung-Il very much either. so i regularly speak out about the Chinese and North Korean governments. to date, nobody has accused me of being 'anti-Asian', for two reasons:

1. i'm NOT anti-Asian.
2. i don't use terms like 'the Asians' (or any of the american-made derogatory slang terms for referring to Asian ppl), i try to narrow the focus of my criticism to those responsible, instead of criticizing the many for the actions of the few.

it is similarly possible to criticize Robert Mugabe's regime without being labeled 'anti-black' or 'anti-African', and to criticize the 'government' of Sudan without being called 'anti-Arab'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why, then, is it seemingly IMPOSSIBLE to speak out against the actions of the state of Israel, without being branded a bigot?


well, my first answer would be that Israel is one of the only countries in the world whose identity is defined by its religion. China has its own religious issues w/ Falun Dafa, but is more defined by its government (Communist) – Israel, on the other hand, is incontrovertibly a JEWISH STATE.

you can criticize someone’s country, and if the criticism is justified, you’re OK.

you can criticize someone’s religion (not advisable), and if the criticism is justified, you’re OK.

but when you criticize Israel, you’re automatically seen as attacking the state of Israel, AND the religion of Judaism. and that makes it a seemingly no-win situation. after all, Israel was established in the British Mandate of Palestine not by coincidence, but because of the often-cited ‘covenant’ between ‘god’ and Abraham, which was later reinforced by ‘god’ and Moses. the settler movement also claims a ‘biblical’ right to all land west of the Jordan River. and it’s quite difficult to argue with somebody who thinks they’re doing their god’s work.


as far as some of the points raised by the Rabbi, a few comments & caveats:



well, he’s right about one thing: Israel is a small nation (roughly the same size as the great state of New Jersey)

but to his question, this answer: there ARE many countries engaged in various violations of Human Rights, and according to everyone from Amnesty International to the International Federation of Journalists, Israel is among them.

so why single out Israel? well, i can only speak for myself... my country, the world’s last remaining ‘superpower’, isn’t sending $6 Billion a year in aid to Zimbabwe, or to Syria. my country isn’t giving Sudan dozens of F-16s and Apache helicopters. but my country IS using my (and your) tax dollars to essentially finance Israel’s occupation of the West Bank & Gaza Strip.



woah, who said anything about wishing Israel to disappear? besides Hamas? i think the international consensus of where Israel should go is ‘back on your own side of the Green Line’

-

lastly, the quote attributed to MLK in the next-to-last paragraph of the article is fake, phony, Zionist propaganda. It was originally cited as coming from the Saturday Review, then from a non-existent King anthology entitled ‘This I Believe’, and when both of THOSE sources were proved to be fake, the quote, w/ the exact same wording, was suddenly attributed (by CAMERA, which makes FoxNews look left-wing by comparison) to an alleged 1968 Harvard speech given by Dr. King. the only problem with THAT is that according to The Harvard Crimson, the nation's oldest continuously published daily college newspaper, “The Rev. Martin Luther King was last in Cambridge almost exactly a year ago--April 23, 1967.”

conclusion: if Dr. King wasn’t in Cambridge in 1968, he couldn’t have given a speech, or engaged in such a heated verbal exchange, at Harvard. and if he HAD, i’m sure a daily paper with the prestige of The Crimson would’ve mentioned it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so, now that i’ve had a look @ your post, do me a quick favor and visit mine:

target='_blank'>american flag 2.0

i’d appreciate any and all feedback.

It is certainly possible to criticize the Israeli government without being called antisemitic. All too often, though, people *far* surpass mere criticism of the Israeli government and then hide behind this "Gee--you can't say anything about Israel" line -- and a line it is, since it is repeated on hate site after hate site acting as an instruction to antisemites on how to obfuscate the issue.
It isn't mere criticism of Israel that betrays one's antisemitic nature, and I have never seen any person making a legitimate criticism of Israeli policy in this or the Kerry forum called an antisemite. This is just a smokescreen employed as a tactic, and nothing more.

People rant and rave about conspiracies of Jews running U.S. foreign policy, and Jews being responsible for 911, and then hide behind the "you can't say anything" line when chalenged.

People talk about those rich Jews who weild enormous power and influence and who are not loyal Americans and then hide behind the "you can't say anything" line.

People indulge in Holocaust revision and claim Jews whine too much about it and then hide behind the "you can't say anything" line.

People show support for Hamas, they legitimize cold blooded murder, they taunt by calling Jews "Nazis", they indulge in rhetorec directly out of the Elders of Zion, they roll out of bed every morning and just can't wait to pour huge, heaping doses of vitriol aimes at anything even remotely related to Israel and all of it done with a , you guessed it -- "you just can't say anything"......


No, you can say lots of things about Isreal. I happen to dislike Sharon , and don't support the proliferation of settlements that strike me as an "in your face" sort of gesture. I know I can say that without somebody calling me antisemitic.

In any case, I find there is an easy diagnostic that works like a charm every time. Just mention the word antisemitic and watch to see who protests. Look to see who plays semantic games with the very meaning of the word. Look to see who feels the charge was aimed at them. The tale of the telltale heart.......

Excellent site- make sure you read the "What Do You Belive" column on the right side of the page also.

Dear Anomie-inc,

I was almost done with a longer reply, but before having finished, I visited your Flag site. It froze my computer!

Rabbi Wolpe does not write that all criticisms of Israel are antisemitic. He does describe the characteristics of those criticisms that are intentianally or unintentially antisemitic.

Your own attitudes about Israel do not make you an antisemite. You are, however, greatly misinformed and uninformed, but a bigot you are not. Unlike real antisemites, including one elsewhere in this forum, you do not impugn the loyalty of American Jews to our country and you haven't engaged in stereotyping or conspiracy theories.

It would take too long a post for me to respond to and to correct your numerous factual errors and misconceptions. Instead, allow me to recommend that you visit
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html
Myths & Facts Online: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict. This guide succinctly debunks the myths that you harbor in question-and-answer form. What's more, it won't freeze your computer.

(I'll leave it too others to educate you about China.)

One of your myths is that Hamas is the only Palestinian group that wants to get the Jews out of Israel. Have you ever looked at the maps of the Middle East that are published in current Palestinian Authority-approved schoolbooks? You won't find any mention of Israel at all! That's true as well of maps throughout Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran and most of the rest of the Arab and Muslim world.

It was announced today in Israel news that Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade and Hamas will oppose any attempt by Mahmoud abbas, or otherwise know as Abu Mazen (anyone know why two names?) for his bid for leadership. They say they will boycott the elections. So, this is really putting a damper on my hopes and dreams. Maybe they are bluffing, maybe they aren't. Now all I can do is hope they aren't too serious or that they can be dealt with. On a positive note Dahlan is endorcing Abu Mazen. Dahlan is fairly moderate as these things go, and he holds a LOT of power in Gaza. Let's all hope for the best okay? It's hard!

I criticize the Likud government mostly. Yes of course one can criticize Israel. Some Jews don't recognize the state of Israel.

Who would those Jews be? Why don't they recognize the state of Israel? Do you know their number?

One, and another, and another...

Your post got me curious, so I looked it up, heart.

I have met a few Jewish people on opposing sides of the Israel question. I must admit that I was not overly sympathetic to the pro-Likud woman that I was introduced to, because it quickly became evident that her views were also very blatantly racist against all Arab peoples.

Whatever else you can say about those groups, patriots or no, I don't see how anyone could call their critisism of the Israeli government anti-Semetic.

Jothika, all...

The groups that you find are not anti-zionist, they are waiting for the messiah to come first. That's the ONLY difference. The NK LIVE IN ISRAEL and they still do not recognize that place they live in...they are kind of like Jewish Amish people. Their numbers are about as high.

There are a broad spectrum of groups that have varying levels of opinion about what Israel should do, but there are 6 million Jewish people in the USA, and the number of NK or Satmar numbers in the 1000's and they are very, very, very Amish-like. I could find more Jews that were Buddhists than their population by far. The other groups if you notice, do not "not recognize" Israel, they just want Israel to do something different.

I think one of the elements of a sound, just and good society is that every crackpot on the Left and the Right gets to have their say, but that does not make them mainstream. The majority of Israelis and Jews too, come down somewhere in between.

Likud is by NO MEANS representative of Israel. They have so many parties that it's very hard to say what popular opinion is. You know, Sharon only won with about 20% of the vote or less. When you have two Party's like we do, you suffer...but when you have over 40 Party's that's even worse in many ways.

The most notorious are the Neturei Karta (Aramaic for "Guardians of the City"), a Hasidic group consisting of about 100 families in Israel. They are related to the Satmar Hasidim, based in Brooklyn, NY and Rockland County, NY. They believe that only a descendant of King David may establish Jewish rule in the Holy Land. One of the Neturei Karta was the "Minister for Jewish Affairs" for Yasir Arafat!

Other so-called "ultra-Orthodox" (an unfortunate term, but I don't know of any better one in English) Jews--who prefer to be known as "Haredim" ("Those who tremble before God")--have over the years reluctantly accepted the reality of the State of Israel, and in recent years, participated in the government.

Palesinian suicide bomb murderers do not distinguish between other Israelis and the anti-Zionist and non-Zionist Jewish groups above. One bomber exploded himself in a Jerusalem neighborhood, that had existed long before the start of modern Zionism (late 19th century) and where only these people live. You can draw your own conclusions.

From Myths & Facts http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html

EXCERPT
Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.1 The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.
END EXCERPT

Regarding the motivations of the British and the Balfour Declaration, you won't find this in Myths & Facts and other introductory or short pieces, but rather in scholarly histories:

The British government, which promulgated the Balfour Declaration 0f 1917, did not do so primarily as a favor for the Jews. Governments, including democracies like the UK and the USA, act out of their own interests first. If an action happens to benefit another entity as well, that's a bonus.

In the case of the UK in 1917, the Jewish residents living along the eastern Mediterranean, and Jews elsewhere, were needed as allies against the Ottoman Empire, which controlled the region and which was aligned with Germany against the British. But not too long after the end of WWI and the fall of the Ottomans, the British no longer needed Jewish allies and they began to scale back the Balfour Declaration and ultimately restricted Jewish immigration.

Your examples are highly selective and, franky, strange. I find it interesting that you do not mention Egypt, which also receives a large amount of US aid. Do you have objections to sending your tax dollars over to aid that authoritarian governement, among other nondemocracies? And why of all places would you give Sudan as an example?! :o

I don't know where you are getting your figures, but you are clearly misinformed, so here's the link to an official US State Dept. foreign aid report, dated 4/15/04:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf

If you read Myths & Facts, you will find out that Israel must spend at least 76% of its military aid back in the U.S., which means American jobs.

yes there are many people who have different grades of opinion.

Likud has the most clout

Not really. Prime Minister Sharon has broken with the rank-and-file of Likud, who oppose withdrawing from Gaza. The anti-withdrawal segment is clearly in the minority, as polls show a large majority of Israelis supporting withdrawal.

I don't know how much longer P.M. Sharon's government is going to last since it no longer commands a majority in the Knesset. He kicked out of his government those who actively oppose withdrawal, while other opponents quit on their own. The next government will continue the withdrawal process.

jlapidus: Good posts. In many ways I can be categorized among those with whom you are arguing, but I definitly consider myself ill-informed. BTW I clearly recall 1967, and 1973. Let me express both sympathy and admiration. But I consider every issue to have two sides.

Question 1. Can Isreal survive intact of it's own accord (eg. without direct outside military support) without the west bank and gaza? I suppose that your answer might include several "depends" clauses, but assuming eg. widespread international support from the UN for territorial integrity, and eg. a powerfull UN based anti-terrorist peacemaker group?

Question 2: Would the Palestinians accept a settlement which doesn't include any part of Jerusalem? Is there any solution?

Don't they make Israel's policy decisions? I was under the impression that they are the sitting power--with some internal struggles recently--in the Israeli government.

heart, perhaps I am just seeing specters of the pro-Likud woman whom I mentioned, but many pro-IDF people that I see post in defense of Israel's military actions on these threads also seem to harbor a lot of hatred and contempt for all Arabic people.

Fundamentalists of any religion discomfort me, especially ones who are so well armed. That is my main source of trepidation towards Israeli fundamentalists. I hope that that doesn't qualify me as anti-Semitic, because I honestly don't think that I am.

Agreed. In the case of Israel and the Arabs, there are at least dozens of sides.

Yes. The only "depends" is if the independent Palestinian state has a peace agreement with Israel, as Jordan and Egypt have. Iraq is no longer an invasion factor, so the West Bank has less strategic importance.

No and maybe.

There is a consensus in the US among both Democratic and Republican policy makers that the solution will involve some sort of Palestinian sovereignty in Jerusalem. There is also the reality that Jerusalem cannot and will never again become a divided city.

What will probably happen is that Palestinian sovereignty will be established in Arab neighborhoods without redividing the city as part of an overall peace agreement. Muslims already have civil and religious control over the Haram ash-Sharif--the Temple Mount--in Jerusalem.

BTW, there was a feature story on NPR this afternoon on All Things Considered. I heard only part of it, but you will be able to hear it on NPR.org in a few hours.
What I did hear is the view that P.M. Sharon will now be more willing to work with Palestinian leadership to coordinate Israeli withdrawal. I also caught part of an anti-Sharon opinion from Henry Siegman, a credible person.

But first, the Palestinian Authority has to elect leaders who can gain control over Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others who seek to challenge them. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have already announced that they will boycott Palestinian elections which will be held within 60 days.

In my previous post, I mentioned NPR. One of those interviewed is Henry Siegman about his article which you can find at

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17591

Sharon and the Future of Palestine
By Henry Siegman

Those who are not fans of Ariel Sharon may especially appreciate Siegman's views.

first things first – sorry to hear about your experience w/ my flag.

you may need to download & install the Macromedia Flash plugin, but if a 364Kb file is making your computer freeze, then my advice to you would be to get a new computer. i’m an IT consultant, and i’ve viewed the page on dozens of computers, everything from iBooks to Windows NT Servers, without a problem.

-
and now, on to the reply:

to be labeled as 'greatly misinformed and uninformed' by somebody who seems to get the majority of his 'facts' from the Jewish Virtual Library (which counts among its honorary board members Doug Feith & Daniel Pipes) is utterly laughable. there isn't a grain of salt large enough to offset their spin. i'm sure there are some pro-China webpages devoted to debunking the 'myths' about the illegal occupation of Tibet, too, but that doesn't make them the final arbiter of truth, now does it?

btw, i didn’t say that Hamas was the only Palestinian group that wants to get the Jews out of Israel. i asked a question, and i guess i should’ve pointed out it wasn’t rhetorical.
i know about the arab textbooks, but then i’ve also heard, as i’d hope that you have, some disturbing views from the Israeli side: slogans like “expel the arab enemy”, “a land without a people for a people without a land”, and everyone’s favorite, “the Palestinians already have a state, it’s called Jordan” – groups like Kach still demonstrate publicly, threatening to assassinate Sharon if he gives back an inch of land to the Palestinians. so i hope you'll at least acknowledge that there are extremists on both sides of this conflict.

i see you’ve taken the time to point out the alleged ‘factual errors’ and ‘misconceptions’ in my previous post, so i’ll respond to those separately.

oh, and i can’t WAIT for somebody to try to ‘educate’ me about China...

IMO, it is not anti-semitic. That would be like BushCo calling us traitors or unpatriotic for speaking out against his actions and policies. All of us are entitled to have our own opinions and views. I feel critical towards both Israel and Palestine at times when they are both committing the same acts and only one side gets blamed.

Actually, my facts come from more sophisticated sources. M&F is merely a popularized intro.

Now, you can laugh all you want, and you can divert attention with ad hominem arguments against Feith and Pipes, but you have failed to deal with the corrections to your misinformation.

The difference between the Arab textbooks and those to whom you refer is that the former represent official P.A. educational policy, while the latter represent the extremist fringe. Kach, BTW, is illegal.

Now, can you account for the Arab maps? Do you defend them? And why should you expect Israel to negotiate with any entity that denies its very existence?

Before you are so quick to respond, I hope that you will take time to review your alleged "facts." If you don't like M&F (which to me is comparable to Cliff's Notes--I recommended it for its relative brevity), you may wish to check its footnotes or to read sources other than whatever anti-Israel tracts you are reading.

MY examples are highly selective, and strange? did you happen to READ the article whose link began this thread?

I read a good deal of news, much of it on the Internet, and see little discussion of the depredations of Syria, or Zimbabwe.
-Rabbi David Wolpe



sure, Egypt gets a few billion in foreign aid each year too. but how many times in the last few decades has Egypt violated a UNSC resolution? how many times has Egypt violated the UN Charter, or the Geneva Conventions? how many foreign journalists has Egypt killed? can you see the difference yet? (none of those are rhetorical questions)



why exactly wouldn't i? do you think that because i'm on the Palestinian side of this issue, i must take the pro-Arab side in every conflict? think again. my point in mentioning all those countries was that of all the nations in the world violating International Law on an almost daily basis, there's only one being bankrolled by the United States.


i get my figures primarily from the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, you should give it a look, it's much more detailed than the State Department's 'Introductory Overview', which doesn't even give totals for Foreign Aid + Federal Loan Guarantees.


American jobs, if you work for Bell, General Dynamics, Northrup Grumman, etc. - more to the point it means lucrative defense contracts.

the bulldozers that Israel uses to demolish Palestinian homes & olive groves are modified D9s, made by Caterpillar. the more they demolish, the more bulldozers they'll need. that means American jobs too, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good thing.

the war in Iraq is leaving thousands of American troops without arms or legs, which means a huge market for the prosthetic industry, which also translates to American jobs. but again, that doesn't make it a good thing.

there's a bigger picture than just 'American jobs', which you won't find at the Jewish Virtual Library.

please, tell me more about these 'sophisticated sources'. seriously. provide links also, if you'd be so kind.


well, i wasn't trying to divert attention, i was merely pointing out the pro-Israel bias of any organization that associates itself with those two individuals. and i still find it laughable that you assume anyone who contradicts what you've read on the Jewish Virtual Library is 'uninformed'

as for the textbooks, i haven't read any myself, have you? you may be interested in this study by a professor from GWU, which might shed a little light on the truth of the matter.

i know Kach is 'illegal', but that doesn't seem to have stopped them from demonstrating publicly, or from staging mock-executions of Ariel Sharon in the settlements... and it's funny how many members of the 'extremist fringe' are also Knesset members.


as far as accounting for the Arab maps, i would argue that as soon as Israel has permanent, internationally recognized borders, they will show up on maps all over the world.

now, check out this map, entitled "Modern Israel - within boundaries and cease-fire lines" on the official website of the Israeli government. i don't see any mention of 'occupied territories' or 'West Bank' or 'Palestine' or even 'Palestinian', only 'Judea' and 'Samaria' (Hebrew words for 'we're keeping this land') - do YOU expect the Palestinians to negotiate with a government that refuses to acknowledge THEIR existence? or does that argument only go one way?


i've been reviewing these facts for years, thanks, and i don't read ANY 'anti-Israel tracts' - my sources are more, how do you say... sophisticated

That's a rather inefficient way to stimulate US job growth, and does nothing at all for the devastated inner city neighborhoods of major cities like my hometown of Cleveland.

I resent giving billions of dollars a year to Israel, a country with nuclear weapons and an expansionist regime, to subsidize its creeping ethnic cleansing program on the West Bank.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: it's not 1967, or 1973. There is no Arab country or combination of countries with the will or the capability to harm Israel. It's time to stop acting like Israel is our 51st state and start letting that country fend for itself.

It's time for new thinking on Israel and the occupied lands. The stupid, racist, arrogant, one-sided US policy in the Middle East is the single biggest cause of terrorism. Terrorists don't attack us because of how we live in our country. They attack us because of what the USA does in and to their countries.

To address the original point of this thread: yes, it is possible to criticise Israel and not be anti-Semitic. The anti-Semite label should be applied to people who are anti-Semitic (and there are a lot of them), but the Israel apologists are too quick to fling that label at people who are actually friends of Israel and the Zionist dream.

I think it's because they cannot justify the actions of the Israeli regime. Their arguments have no logical underpinnings, so they huff and puff and sputter..."You must be anti-Semitic!" That's the only argument they have, and it's getting old.

An amusing factoid related to your comments. When I was in Israel I wanted to go to the West Bank and went to a store in Tel Aviv to buy a detailed map. I assumed an Israeli map would have much greater detail than any map I could have brought from home.

But I could not find a single map that made any distinction between Israel and the West Bank. I don't even recall there being a 'green line.' I asked a friend where the West Bank began. He traced the approximate boundary with his finger.

And therefore...? Are you really unaware about Syria and Zimbabwe? Do you really think that Rabbi Wolpe's examples are inappropriate? What do you know about the history of Syria? Does the name "Hama" mean anything to you? What about Syria's occupation of Lebanon? Do you approve of the policies of Syria's Baathist government? Do you think that Syria does not have serious human rights abuses? Do you care?



Nice how you glide over Egypt. As far as the UNSC, you seem to be at odds with not only with the current president, but also with Pres. Clinton and Sen. Kerry, who recognize the bias of the UNSC. Israel cannot even get to be a member of it, while Syria, a ruthless dictatorship, currently has a seat. Do you approve of countries like Syria serving on the UNSC?

For those who want to deal with facts, rather than with leftwing blather, see
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...s/index.html#13



It appears to me that you are the one who cannot discern differences!
Israel has violated neither. And I'm not sure what to make of your outrageous innuendo that Israel deliberately killed journalists.

EXCERPT:

MYTH

"Israel's failure to implement UN resolutions is a violation of international law."

FACT

UN resolutions are documents issued by political bodies and need to be interpreted in light of the constitution of those bodies. They represent the political viewpoints of those who support them rather than embodying any particular legal rules or principles. Resolutions can have moral and political force when they are perceived as expressing the agreed view of the international community, or the views of leading, powerful and respected nations.

The UN Charter (Articles 10 and 14) specifically empowers the General Assembly to make only nonbinding "recommendations." Assembly resolutions are only considered binding in relation to budgetary and internal procedural matters.

The legality of Security Council resolutions is more ambiguous. It is not clear if all Security Council resolutions are binding or only those adopted under Chapter 7 of the Charter.15 Under Article 25 of the Charter, UN member states are obligated to carry out "decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter," but it is unclear which kinds of resolutions are covered by the term "decisions." Regardless, it would be difficult to show that Israel has violated any Security Council resolutions on their wording and the Council has never sanctioned Israel for noncompliance.
END



You complained that the US doesn't send Apache helicopters to the Sudan. Who's supposed to fly them?!

Your assertion that Israel "violates international law" is a matter of your opinion.



"One picture is worth a thousand words." That site has 5 pix at the top. Who's side do you think that site is on? Be that as it may, where do the writers get their information? I looked in vain for footnotes. I did find articles on that site that did nothing but vilify Israel without even a trace of balance and context. Allow me to provide some of that:

DR. MITCHELL BARD:
U.S. economic grants to Israel ended in 1959. U.S. aid to Israel from then until 1985 consisted largely of loans, which Israel repaid, and surplus commodities, which Israel bought. Israel began buying arms from the United States in 1962, but did not receive any grant military assistance until after the 1973 Yom Kippur War. As a result, Israel had to go deeply into debt to finance its economic development and arms procurement. The decision to convert military aid to grants that year was based on the prevailing view in Congress that without a strong Israel, war in the Middle East was more likely, and that the U.S. would face higher direct expenditures in such an eventuality.

Israel has received more direct aid from the United States since World War II than any other country, but the amounts for the first half of this period were relatively small. Between 1949 and 1973, the U.S. provided Israel with an average of about $122 million a year, a total of $3.1 billion (and actually more than $1 billion of that was loans for military equipment in 1971-73) . Prior to 1971, Israel received a total of only $277 million in military aid, all in the form of loans as credit sales. The bulk of the economic aid was also lent to Israel. By comparison, the Arab states received nearly three times as much aid before 1971, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year. Moreover, unlike Israel, which receives nearly all its aid from the United States, Arab nations have gotten assistance from Asia, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union and the European Community. Congress first designated a specific amount of aid for Israel (an "earmark") in 1971.
END BARD QUOTE



Don't forget Connecticut's own Pratt & Whitney!
You seem to have something against American companies and their workers, or do I misunderstand? And do you think that the benefits of Israel's purchase are limited to those companies and employees?



I have no problem with demolishing the homes of suicide bombing murderers, nor did I have a problem with the bulldozing of buildings in the "Philadelphia" zone which uncovered arms smuggling tunnels under the border between Sinai and Gaza. I do have questions about other bulldozing activities, and I'll discuss these with those who I know support the right of the State of Israel to exist within secure and recognized borders.

[snip]

Do Bush, Rove, Cheney and the religious right speak for us? The politics over there make the politics overs here seem a bit pedestrian

The jihadists and their supporters have made many of those who were more moderate and hopeful for the peace process more prone to support the retaliation that just keeps this BS alive. I've also noticed that as the religious right here makes a play to make this a more christian country, there's a heightened fear of new pogroms and increased frustration with criticism that appears dispproportionatley directed toward Israel in comparison to other countries/organizations that are doing the same things. I've finally gotten my parents to realize that gay people are just like us, they still can't get past their stereotypes of the majority of Arabs as rabid, jihad-supporting Muslim fundamentalists (or Christians who hate Jews).

Fear of extremists who want to impose their views on everyone when they happend to be Jewish does not qualify as anti-semetism. I, personally, fear fundamentalists of any religion.

Gimme a break! You can find newspaper and magazine sites as well as I can.
It doesn't take rocket science to find sources that present opposing views on the Israel-Arab issues, written by respected people.



I do not assume that, but don't let that bother you. Agreeing with everyting in M&F is not a litmus test.

Messr's Pipes and Feith did not write M&F. Why are you bothered by them and not by the pictures on the site that you recommended? Was Said less biased?

I could have picked other sites, but M&F is concise (admittedly at the price of being somewhat simplistic) and organized for the purpose of gaining a short overview from an Israel-sympathetic POV to contrast with one-sided anti-Israel blather.

BTW, you seem to have a problem with the Jewish Virtual Library, which hosts various resources. Why? Is it that it's a Jewish site?



I don't discount that article. The author appears to be fair, unlike that other site.
One can find contrasting reports by Googling "Palestinian textbooks maps."



So what! Neo-Nazis, Trotskyites, Klansmen and others on the fringe demonstrate in the US. Does that make them significant or representative of American values?

I'm not aware of anyone in the Knesset who belongs to Kach or who has called for assassinating Sharon.

(Regarding my personal opposition to Kach and its founder, Meir Kahane, I paid my dues. I publicly and formally spoke against Kahane, causing some to walk out. Better yet, I was at a social gathering and I happened to be at a table that turned out to have at least one Kahane fan. When he extolled Kahane, he did not seem to appreciate my remark,"Kahane, the Jewish Farrakhan?!")



If so, why hasn't Israel within its pre-1967 borders not shown up? Shouldn't Arab publications acknowledge Israel's existence at least within the "Green Line"?



While you are focusing on "Judea" and "Samaria," I am fascinated by the boundaries drawn by an official Israel government site. Notice that the site does not hide the "Green Line." (I don't know if that was the case 20 or so years ago.) Inasmuch as there does not yet exist an independent State of Palestine, how can it be placed on a map? The words "Palestinian control" are found on other maps at that same site.



Such as?

I myself read pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian articles in the NYT and other major papers. I've even posted yesterday some links to one pro-Palestinian writer and two Jewish anti-Sharon writers. Many among Israel's supporters revile NPR, but I don't.

I would like to ask you direct a couple of "yes or no" questions, if you please:
Do you support the right of the State of Israel to exist within secure and recognized boundaries? Do you condemn suicide bombings?

If you answer "yes" to both questions, then there is enough common ground between us to continue.

Jothika...I wish you could walk a day or two in my shoes. I spend a part of the day with Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Berbers and some black/asian and white folks thrown in for good measure I honestly love them individually for their own culture, humor, accents, mistranslated jokes, misunderstandings of words, ways of moving when they speak, and everything else. I also want you to know what I've said a couple of times in the past...I used to work with victims of torture from all around the world, and I really, really hate tyrants!!! I have too many stories of too much really sick, sick stuff to ever look with any fondness on a repressive regime like the Baathists, or the Saudis, or the Serbians and Croatian massacres either. That is my "gripe" with the ME, not the people, but the people that "rule" over them and their followers.

No, it's not at all a hatred of Arabs only some people who happen to be Arab and practice brutality on their own people and on my extended family and that includes the ones that are Muslim too. I can't love a "group" of people that just whipped a 14 year old boy to death because he did not fast for Ramadan, or a "group" of people who hang a sixteen year old girl for pre-marital sex, or who behead people in the town square or chop off arms and hands for not towing the line of oppressive religion or regime.

Fundamentalists with weapons are everywhere I can tell you that for sure. They are currently in Sudan killing people, Somalia forcing their beliefs on others, outside of the city of Nepal leading a Moaist insurgency (which acts as a substitute for religion) and they are fighting each other in Kahsmir, and Thailand. The threat still exists in Sierra Leone, Liberia, and still in Peru... and they can't get a panel of judges willing to risk their lives by judging Guzman the terrorist leader of the Shining Path. There are no shortage of "fundamentalists" who use either religion or idealogy in it's place to impose their truth on you, or me, or some other group of people.

You can find what some might call "fundamentalists" in Kurdistan as well...heavily armed too. Why? Because they do not want to be sold into slavery as Saddam did to their young women, or gassed, or hung, or beheaded. They want to be able to speak Kurdish, dress in Kurdish garb, live under a democratic free system, and they are mostly Muslim but they don't want women to HAVE to wear the hijab.

There are good causes and their are bad causes. There are no good wars, but there are countries who TRY to fight cleanly, and those that seem to TRY NOT to fight cleanly at all. A good cause is one that is not only 'against' something, it's FOR something BETTER. It's not enough to be one repression replacing another, it has to be an improvement before anyone should support it. Why make more dictators?

Israel has a parlimentary system of government. In our two party system, whichever party has the votes in the congress wins, but not in a parliment. In a parliment you have to form a coalition and in Israel that's really not easy. Right now Likud has a coalition, but only for the time. I think Labor is actively working with Likud toward the disengagement plan..because some of the right wingers resigned. There is no guarantee that the government will stay in power for it's full term. If the coalition falls apart, and they are representing the various smaller party people that were elected by the public, then a new coalition will have to be formed with other parties OR there will be a call for new elections. If Sharon keeps this coalition (no small feat that), then there will be elections in 2006, otherwise it could be sooner.

I hope that helps. I don't find your questions anti-semitic. I think it's a complicated situation with no easy answers. If I had only met two US citizens and one was a pacifist and one was a marine drill sargeant from Texas, I would not have any clear idea of what an American was like. It's often the case that the same pattern shows up on forums...a few pacifists and a few marines from texas and NO MIDDLE GROUND! Which of course is never the reality at all.

That is awful, but I have always thought that people get pushed farther into that sort of mindset when they feel threatened or suffer hardship. More than one Palestinian (I will admit, as I have never met many, I cannot be sure if this is a fair representation) has said to me that s/he believes that the Israeli Defense Force tortures or kills their people (or demolishes their homes) just on suspicion. That is why I have never understand why the occupied territories, with refugee camps, would make Israel safer.

Thank you for tolerating my constant queries; I continue with them because all I know about this conflict is what I have heard from individuals, learned in school, and what I occasionally read. I have never experienced anything like it.

Jothika, one of my best study partners was born and raised in "Haifa", and yet he told me the first day I met him that there was no Israel. It was an invention of the lying "Jews"! He is here going to school on an "Israeli" visa...go figure! But, he's a nice enough guy even though it took me about four weeks to feel safe enough to walk to the parking lot with him, and it took me four weeks to convince him I didn't eat small children for breakfast. It turned out that he was the only person who studied as hard as I did, and so we studied, brought food for each other, and looked out for each other. I am sure however, that he now knows one less enemy, and I hope that one day he will remember that, as will I. It's one person at a time all in all...one person who knows one person that they know to be a decent, kind, loving human being with good intentions.

Jothika, here is the real tragedy to me...all of these people were told to rise up in the name of pan-arabism from 1948 onward, and they did. Then they fought and lost the war, and their brothers and sisters will not allow them to assimilate in their own countries. The leaders of Syria, Lebanon (mostly occupied by Syria), Jordan and even in Egypt and the Gulf States have refugees that are not allowed to have citizenship.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/images/map.jpg

If you want to see a group that I support, it's this one, because these are real people who REALLY want peace but not for the leadership of the PA...they want rights for the palestinians ONLY. Not the Tunisian mob that followed Arafat and the terrorist groups around. They are NOT Likud...but they are there and they see what goes on. If you write to them they will tell you all about it. They are the real people that need to be in charge of peace, but the Palestinians among them say they will be lynched or put in prison if they speak out. Hopefully, new leadership will change that.
http://www.machsomwatch.com/about-eng.html

That is the truth!

I don't think that I have told you much about myself, have I? I live in one the West Coast of the U.S. I am twenty...and it is nice to meet you, heart.

Thank you for the links, I will check it out.

I had raised the issue of Palestinian textbook maps yesterday.
I just received the following today from Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
If someone finds any official repsonse from the Palestinian Authority before I do, please post it on this thread.

Jerusalem, 18 November 2004

PM Sharon: I don't intend to waste time
(Communicated by the Prime Minister's Media Adviser)

Following are excerpts from Prime Minister Sharon's remarks today
(Thursday), 18 November 2004:

"What will happen tomorrow - how will the Palestinian leadership be
tested? I will give one example: We cannot give in on the demand to collect
weapons and dismantle the terrorist organizations, but it is clear that this is a
more complex process.

However, there are two demands that are under the direct control of the
new leadership, and it must be seen to that they are implemented
immediately. Any appeal by the new leadership will be seen and tested in light of the
implementation or non-implementation of two main issues, which could be
carried out easily and immediately.

1. The halt to the venomous propaganda and continuing incitement in the
Palestinian media.

2. A change and turnaround in the Palestinian education system, a halt
to the incitement against - and demonization of - Israel, Israelis and Jews.

Replacing inflammatory textbooks, banning the holding of lessons,
presentations, summer camps, etc., that incite against Israel - the
venomous propaganda in the Palestinian media and education system are the root
and foundation of the growing phenomenon of suicide terrorism.
Palestinian education and propaganda are more dangerous to Israel than
Palestinian weapons. These two important missions, even before the full
implementation of the first stage of the Roadmap, will be an important
test of the true direction of the Palestinian leadership. Upon what are they
bent - a future peace or war and terrorism?

I brought this example in order to show that I don't intend to waste
time; I plan to find any way - when the new Palestinian leadership is ready to
open contacts - in order to start advancing our relations with the
Palestinians I hope that the future will lead to quiet, security and a diplomatic
settlement."

Google recently launched a new search engine, scholar.google.com

Through it, I found

http://www.nfhs.org/scriptcontent/Va_Custo...SDTA/israel.pdf.

which has a nice summary of the arguments for and against American aid to Israel.
The link is to a publication by a national high school debating topic selection committee.
It presents the arguments on all sides fairly, free of knee-jerk blather and bias.

There are of course more involved pieces, but I'm assuming that many of you are pressed for time and would appreciate brevity.

*this is an extremely long post for which i apologize to all*


PART I



no, YOU seemed to think they were... actually it went like this:

you started this thread by recommending a link. i clicked and read. Rabbi David Wolpe said, in part:
But I would actually like to ask some more pointed questions of my typical counterpart in this discussion, if only to begin a serious dialogue, not a litany of accusation. 1. First, and most obvious: Why Israel? I read a good deal of news, much of it on the Internet, and see little discussion of the depredations of Syria, or Zimbabwe.

so then i replied (more to Rabbi Wolpe & his questions than to you, since you hadn’t offered any opinion or review, just a link), saying, in part:

why single out Israel? well, i can only speak for myself... my country, the world’s last remaining ‘superpower’, isn’t sending $6 Billion a year in aid to Zimbabwe, or to Syria. my country isn’t giving Sudan dozens of F-16s and Apache helicopters. but my country IS using my (and your) tax dollars to essentially finance Israel’s occupation of the West Bank & Gaza Strip. target='_blank'><post #2>

do you see there how he brought up Zimbabwe & Syria, and then i responded by pointing out that the reason there isn’t more “discussion of the depredations of Syria, or Zimbabwe”, is because the United States isn’t sponsering and enabling and validating the actions of Syria or Zimbabwe (and i added Sudan, because that seemed the closest example of a government abusing it’s military superiority to dispossess an entire population, create a huge refugee crisis, and systematically crush the spirit of the people).

america IS giving several billions of dollars a year to Israel.

america IS giving/selling F-16s and Apache helicopters to Israel.

so you replied to that, saying:
“Your examples are highly selective and, franky, strange.” target='_blank'>(post #13)
to which i replied: MY examples are highly selective, and strange? did you happen to READ the article whose link began this thread? target='_blank'>(post #23)

so now let me clarify – if you found my use of Syria and Zimbabwe as examples ‘highly selective’ and ‘strange’, you need to take that up with the Rabbi (whose examples they were), not with me. i thought they were entirely appropriate, that’s why i used them.

i hope that’s all cleared up.

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PART II
What do you know about the history of Syria? enough.
Does the name "Hama" mean anything to you? why, what does it mean to you?
What about Syria's occupation of Lebanon? all military occupations are bad – why, is america funding that one too?
Do you approve of the policies of Syria's Baathist government? which policies?
Do you think that Syria does not have serious human rights abuses? no.
Do you care? yes. gosh, what a lot of questions.


As far as the UNSC, you seem to be at odds with not only with the current president, but also with Pres. Clinton and Sen. Kerry, who recognize the bias of the UNSC. Israel cannot even get to be a member of it, while Syria, a ruthless dictatorship, currently has a seat. Do you approve of countries like Syria serving on the UNSC?


i have no problem whatsoever being at odds with those three. their opinions were crafted over years by people who ‘recognize’ the same ‘bias’ in groups like Amnesty International & Human Rights Watch. as though groups like that, fighting against injustice on every continent, suddenly get to Israel and develop a bias. sure.

I’ll make you a deal on the UNSC:

sure, make Israel eligible for one of the rotating seats on the council. (the whole ‘repeatedly defying UNSC resolutions’ thing might have something to do w/ their exclusion)

in trade, let’s take away veto power from the permanent members (us, uk, china, france, russia).

i mean, think about it – what if 3 members of the supreme court had veto power? NOTHING would get done! we’d still be waiting to find out who won the 2000 election.

stripping veto power, especially from the US, would do more to accomplish the work of the UN and the enforcement of its guiding principles, than anything else in the world.

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PART III

jlapidus quote: For those who want to deal with facts, rather than with leftwing blather, see
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...s/index.html#13
It appears to me that you are the one who cannot discern differences!
Israel has violated neither. And I'm not sure what to make of your outrageous innuendo that Israel deliberately killed journalists.

first, i never said or implied ‘deliberately’ (although the International Federation of Journalists has condemned Israeli “criminal disregard for the safety of journalists”) – i could narrow the question if you’d like –

how many foreign journalists has Egypt accidentally killed?

as to the violations,

i don’t have the time to link each doc# to the UN’s online pdfs, but you can go to www.4N0Mi3.com/psa.htm for clickable links to each.

• Israel has been repeatedly criticized for their defiance of UN Resolutions.
(UNSC Res. 251, 252, 259, 267, 271, 298, 332, 476, 478, 517, 520, 608, 673, 1403)

• Israel has been accused four times of violating the United Nations Charter.
(UNSC Res. 228, 248, 332, 573)

• Israel has been repeatedly warned about and criticized for the deportation of Palestinian civilians.
(UNSC Res. 607, 608, 636, 641, 694, 726, 799)

• Israel has been accused of violating the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention on 19 separate occasions.
(UNSC Res. 446, 452, 465, 469, 471, 476, 478, 484, 592, 605, 607, 636, 641, 672, 681, 694, 726, 799, 904)
[The Fourth Geneva Convention deals with the protection of civilians in times of war]


if the best answer that you & AICE can come up with is:

It is not clear if all Security Council resolutions are binding or only those adopted under Chapter 7 of the Charter.

then that doesn’t say much.

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PART IV

jlapidus quote: You complained that the US doesn't send Apache helicopters to the Sudan. Who's supposed to fly them?!

you seriously thought i was complaining? aren’t the janjaweed doing enough butchering WITHOUT Apaches?? what the HECK are you talking about? ? ?

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PART V

jlapidus quote: Your assertion that Israel "violates international law" is a matter of your opinion.
"One picture is worth a thousand words." That site has 5 pix at the top. Who's side do you think that site is on? Be that as it may, where do the writers get their information? I looked in vain for footnotes. I did find articles on that site that did nothing but vilify Israel without even a trace of balance and context. Allow me to provide some of that:

you then followed with an attempt at explaining away all that money, by Mitchell Bard who, it turns out, is the Executive Director of AICE, which created the Jewish Virtual Library, which created your beloved ‘M+F’, which still seems to provide most of your ‘facts’.

jlapidus quote: Messr's Pipes and Feith did not write M&F. Why are you bothered by them and not by the pictures on the site that you recommended? Was Said less biased?

first, if the pictures bother you that much, try refreshing the page – there are about 7 different banners that rotate randomly. one of them includes bush, blair, & aznar in the azores, some indonesian protesters, and a pakistani reading a newspaper. you seem too focused on your pro-Israel agenda to have noticed that the middle east encompasses a larger region than ‘Eretz Yisroel’, and the site isn’t taking sides, just doing the math.

and since you don’t seem to believe the numbers, here’s a link to a PDF from the CRS (Congressionial Research Service), clearly outlining what you don’t seem to understand. Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART VI

jlapidus quote: You seem to have something against American companies and their workers, or do I misunderstand?

you couldn’t misunderstand more if you’d been trying. and i think you are trying. those companies make weapons of mass destruction, not cereal. are you trying to paint me as ‘anti-american’?

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PART VII

jlapidus quote: You can find newspaper and magazine sites as well as I can. It doesn't take rocket science to find sources that present opposing views on the Israel-Arab issues, written by respected people. I could have picked other sites, but M&F is concise (admittedly at the price of being somewhat simplistic) and organized for the purpose of gaining a short overview from an Israel-sympathetic POV to contrast with one-sided anti-Israel blather.

I’m still waiting to actually see one of these other sources, so i can find out what makes them ‘more sophisticated’ – especially if you’re going to dismiss all of my sources (for which i provided links) as ‘blather’.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART VIII

jlapidus quote: BTW, you seem to have a problem with the Jewish Virtual Library, which hosts various resources. Why? Is it that it's a Jewish site?
no, i thought we’d already established that i’m NOT a bigot.

my problem with the Jewish Virtual Library is for how it spins events like:
(1) the 1948 terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel by future Israeli PM Menachem Begin
(2) the 1967 attack on the USS Liberty

and how it doesn’t even MENTION other events like

(3) the 1948 assassination of UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte by the Israeli terrorist group LEHI
(4) the 1954 Lavon affair, in which Jewish and/or Israeli spies planned to bomb American targets in Egypt and blame it on Arabs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART IX


jlapidus quote: I'm not aware of anyone in the Knesset who belongs to Kach or who has called for assassinating Sharon.

when i said ‘extremist fringe’, i was referring to pro-transfer parties like Mafdal, Moledet, and many members of Likud. the ones that want to see the Palestinians pushed into the river Jordan.

(btw i admire & respect your oppostition to Kach & Kahane)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART X

jlapidus quote: why hasn't Israel within its pre-1967 borders not shown up?

because Israel has not gone BACK to its pre-1967 borders... duh.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART XI

you asked about MY sources, i’ll answer you:


http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
http://www.ussliberty.com
http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/
http://www.fair.org/
http://www.machsomwatch.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/index.asp
http://solidarity.igc.org/PalestineResources.html#WEBSITES
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/gallery/gallery.htm
http://www.divest-from-israel-campaign.org/sustainpop.html
http://www.wrmea.com/
http://www.bringthemhome.btvshalom.org/
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaultEng.asp
http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD52803
http://www.palestine-un.org/info/frindex.html
http://www.kahane.org/home.html
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.btselem.org/
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
http://www.accuracy.org/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART XII (finally)

jlapidus quote: I would like to ask you direct a couple of "yes or no" questions, if you please:

Do you support the right of the State of Israel to exist within secure and recognized boundaries?

Do you condemn suicide bombings?

Answers:

Yes, Israel has every right to exist. I’ll even go further & support the separation wall, if they build it on the Green Line.

Yes i condemn suicide bombings (and i always have, as others who’ve seen my KerryForum posts will hopefully attest) – i hate them. I wish they’d stop.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the end.

anomie, inc.

I found this on an Arab/Iraqi blog and I thought maybe a little bit of humor might help. I will adjust for the "FCC" factors but you get the drift:

In Jerusalem, an American female journalist heard about an old rabbi who visited the Wailing Wall to pray, twice a day, everyday, for a long, long time.

In an effort to check out the story, she went to the holy site and there he was. She watched the bearded old man at prayer. After 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, she approached him for an interview.

"I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN, sir, how long have you been coming to the Wailing Wall and praying?" she asked.

"For about 50 years," he said.

"50 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?" she asked.

"I pray for peace between the Jews and the Arabs. I pray for all the hatred to stop, and I pray for all our children to grow up in safety and friendship," he said.

"And how do you feel, sir, after doing this for 50 years?" she asked.

Without hesitation he said, "Like I'm talking to a "freaking" wall."

thank you heart, you made my day

Then I have a homework assignment for you, because not knowing about what happened in Hama is a significant lacuna in your knowledge of the region. Read about the town of Hama, Syria. You should have no problem finding about it online. Better yet, Thomas Friedman in his book from Beirut to Jerusalem gives an excellent background and description of what he calls "Hama rules," which continue to remain relevant.

Which policies of the Syrian Baathist gov't you ask?
Military occupation of Lebanon.
Support for the Hizbollah.
Allowing offices in Damascus of Hamas and other terrorist organizations.
Forbidding waht's left of the Syrian Jewish community to emigrate.
No democracy.


How free are reporters allowed to report in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon et al., especially when there is something that the respective regime does not want something reported? OTOH, the reason why we know a lot more about events in Israel is due to Israel's free press.

Thanks to among other measures the Apaches, the rate of suicide bombing mass murders has sharply decreased. Thank God for the US and its bipartisan support of Israel! It's good that our country is giving the necessary amount of aid required to help the only democracy in the Middle East to defend itself against those who wish to destroy it.

Of course you don't agree, judging from your mostly one-sided websites that you use for references. I do respect B'Tselem, one of your sites. Likewise, I regularly read opposing opinions from credible people in newspapers and magazines.

I may be wrong, but it appears to me that you automatically and uncritically give credence only to sources that are overtly hostile to Israel and that you are uninterested in contrasting views. It appears that the only pro-Israel views that you take seriously are those from the extremist and illegal fringe.

BTW, have you ever visited Israel?
The bipartisan support for Israel by Pres. Clinton, Sen. Kerry and other mainstream Democrats results from their first-hand experiences.


What makes a source more sophisticated is its willingness, e.g., not to view the Middle East in black-and-white terms, to try to be fair to the different sides, to critically examine all evidence--even and especially that which may support an author's predictions, and the reputation and credentials of the author.

I don't know why you are waiting so long to see credible sources. You have heard of the NY Times and many other major dailies that both pro-Sharon and pro-Palestinians complain about. You have heard of NPR I hope, which on the one hand is derided as "National Palestine Radio" by a number of pro-Israel supporters, and which OTOH is called "Zionist" by others.

You have, e.g., heard of, I'm sure, Thomas Friedman of the NYT who among other journalists travels frequently to the Middle East. He's not a favorite of a number of Israel's supporters.

That's still established. It just seems that you too easily dismissed it out-of-hand, perhaps because a Jewish-sponsored must be automatically biased. That site merely hosts that and a number of other resources. AIPAC and New East Reports are more responsible for Myths & Facts, and so it's with them that you should have your argument, not with JVL.