As many of you who have been around this forum know, I wrote a short story called A Credible Threat in which a President cancels the 2008 elections and becomes a dictator. Many of you know that I also turned this story into a novel.

The novel itself was heavily plot-driven; criticism from virtually every agent looking at the manuscript was that it needed more character development. In the mean time, most of the plot devices have changed as it was written pre-Katrina. A big part of the story was FEMA taking over administration of a paramilitary... ... like anyone would believe that now! But stop and think about all the changes in the national perception of this group of thugs since last February, when I first wrote it!

Anyhow, I'm about ready to begin a rewrite. This time I'm only going to use 6, maybe 7, characters. The protagonist is still going to be a high school English and History teacher from Anaheim (gosh, where might that inspiration have come from, ya think? ) but instead of being more of a conspiracy plot contained within a murder mystery- think 3 Days of the Condor or Pelican Brief, most of the plot will involve dismembering the conspiracy through the internet- sort of a Parallax View with the internet playing the Warren Beatty role.

And instead of developing each character through their entrance into the story, they will be developed within the internet itself- in other words, a CGCS-like entity becomes the way each character is developed, and it is from this entity that the story will take shape. If you read Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, and the way the city of Savannah actually became a character, you'll have an idea of what I mean. The plot is, basically, this group of people, by thinking together in a hive-like mental state, are able to put together the conspiracy; still haven't decided whether they're successful at stopping it.

Names will be changed to protect the innocent, but the characters I have in mind are:

Marine. This guy is a retired Marine living on a ranch in Texas. Like almost everyone else in the story, he has an intense dislike for the current President . He voted for Gore but also voted for 41. Considers himself a conservative, but sees this administration as anything but.

Doc. In this story, Doc becomes something of a Greek chorus. A typical New Englander, he questions everything- motivations, sources- everything. He especially questions GOPGuy and G4A, the point and counterpoint of the story.

SyqoDem. That's me. He, of course, is the first to see the conspiracy seed- the hero... by the way, when I renew, that's the handle I might take.

Pie. Knows things and is able to deduce and extract from seemingly meaningless pieces of information.

Snuffy. A combined Global Chinese and Snuffy. They find things from everywhere and post it.

G4A. Tinfoilhat conpiracy theorist who consistantly makes some really odd connections that, in a wierd way, ultimately make sense. Counterintuitive. Is usually dismissed as a Cassandra figure: can see the future but can never convince people to do what's necessary to change it.

GOPGuy. The foil for the rest; is really the counterpoint to G4A but his sourcing and questions usually toe the Party line. In the first draft of the novel, he turns out to be a good guy.

KT/Heart/Skillet/VMaus/Pegatha- and pretty much everyone else. A composite character trying to make sense of it all, and trying to do whatever is necessary to stop it without getting thrown into Git'mo!

There will be villians extracted from the novel: a Rove, Bush, Negroponte, and Cheney, as well as a colonel who loves to torture people.

If you are interested in helping me with the rewrite, PM me.

Oh, my ! And here we go again. I like the new concept, though.

QUOTE

a hive-like mental state

Again, will not be able to show work here, as it will then be in the public domain.

For those who did not help proof read, etc., the last go around- it is fun ! Winston is great to work with and comes up with great writing from the get-go. I already have an idea about an important character... sending it to 'ya Winston.

I PM'd you WS...sounds great.

Please keep me in the loop... I will contribute whatever I can...

The idea of the internets as central character is a great one, Winston, and one whose time has come. Cutting edge!

I assume SyqoDem is a foul-mouthed preacher?

F*&% b@#$& you can s^%* all you f@!$#, of course not!

He's a foul-mouthed middle-aged High School English and History teacher in Anaheim, CA who just happens to be an ordained minister! Maybe somewhere in the world is a person who fits that broad, general discription, ya think?

That sums me up about just about everything in my life......trying to make sense out of things to avoid being thrown into hell......er, git'mo in this case. PLEASE PLEASE BRER FOX, DON'T THROW ME INTO THE BRIAR PATCH WHATEVER YOU DO! ANYTHING BUT THAT.

Okay winston, this sounds fun. I'll do whatever I can to help as my time allows. Some days I can't find time to get into the forum so please post it in a handy place so I can at least find it quickly when I do.

If you know what I mean..........


KT

You were a great help back in the day, with the original CT! I'll email you with whatever's goin' on

As I said, what I want to do is make this forum into one of the characters, and I've figured out how to do it.

The novel will begin with the days this forum got started, early after Kerry's defeat. I'll be weaving characters that ultimately become the character of this forum from the posts that give this forum its incredible personality.

I've been looking at some of the early posts and it's amazing how quickly personalities come thru, and how amazing that some of the strategies we are talking about today were originally given voice as early as November 4th. And it's amazing that the personna of this place is so much a part of us all.

Pretty cool, isn't it???

Can we help you in any way in pulling this project together? I might be able to help you with character development. I'd have to review the character's posts and maybe PM with them to get an idea of who they are, what they're about here on the forum, etc.

Gabrielle,

Yeah, it is pretty cool. I didn't realize how cool until I started looking at earlier posts and putting them in context with how these people are now.

Character development, however, is my weak suite- just have a hard time finding ways to say what it is that makes the character his or her self. It's clear in my mind, but I can't seem to get it on paper.

Anyhow, I plan on getting started tomorrow. Will let you know more as I work it through.

Thanks for your help.

WS

While I'm going to be posting the story on my blog as I write, I'd like to give everyone in it an opportunity to have their say. If you don't want to be mentioned, PM me. If you have some personal anecdotes about yourself, PM me. As I begin telling the story, and you see something that isn't right or something you thing might be interesting to add, let me know. I have the Introduction posted in Herding Blue Cats. These are the people as of now who will be specifically mentioned; since I know very few actual names, this will be the way characters are identified in the narrative.


As I work my way through the threads, I might add additional characters- I'll let you know if that happens. Again, you can always see what's being written by going to my blog and looking under Left Click: A Political Narrative

Thank you winston. I am following this post and am very interested in your artistic endeavor! Count me in!

KT

Looks like I've got some reading to do.

I can't find anything but the listing intro.

Keep checking at Herding Blue Cats. I'll be updating it several times a day, as I write. I plan on using it as sort of a failsafe if something crashes.

The actual narrative itself will have indents, footnotes, block quotes- the whole bit- but I won't be formatting the HTML to do that- waaaaayyyyyy too much time.

The first part of Chapter 1 is there now- but is far from complete. Like I said, I'll pretty much be posting it on my blog as I write.

Where is Herding Blue Cats?

KT

Go to "blog" above, KT. Then you will see it.

Do we get royalties?

Actually, I don't believe any one of us should answer this question on the spur of the moment...

And I am not positive whether writing a book on a blog that can be stolen by anyone is a good idea.

I have written a novel and gone through the copywriting it, and a bunch of other things with it.

I have a bunch of time written that sometimes it seems like we are being used on this board for people's books.

And while what at first seems like a great idea, you know what?

It is a great idea.

BUT, it is an idea that could possibly some day make a lot of money.

And money issues should not be discussed on a public board.
I have had some ideas I was kicking around too, but this veers into
murky areas here

I have to say,

You may be and may already have given away the goose that lays the golden egg.

Please pm me.

I am not saying I don't want to be part of it.

I am saying I think this is the wrong way to go about something like this

I want to discuss this with someone off the board

(and btw, whether the names are changed to protect the innocent or not,
it would be quite evident who is who)...

and there is another issue, that boggles the mind too...but I don't wish to discuss that either on this board...

And I would say everyone should not just jump and say cool idea...
even if it is a cool idea

And I have some really "cool" ideas myself

©g4a ... you know when I put that down, what it means? And even if you don't put it down

Anything one puts on the web comes into the public domain.
I am not sure exactly what the concerns are but maybe a chat on a Sunday afternoon would be a good place to voice those concerns. I am sure willing to listen, as I imagine everyone would be.
But the above post is hard to gauge. It is a bit "murky."

With all due respect, the rights and non-rights is an on-going concern.

The general thought is, copyright laws will end up being exactly as they were before the internet became what it is.

...This is a very, very grey area that people exploit, but it doesn't make it legal.

I am trying to read between the lines to make sense out of this and that leaves me with my interpretation which is as good as anyone else's. Graham, I wish I could understand what you are saying here.
KT

one of these years when we can all be more than anonymous(except for the few who know or have met, I can pick up the phone and tell you instantly what I mean

A public board is not the place unfortunately, neither really is email.

To everyone, but especially Graham:

Things have changed since I started to assemble this project. It'll no longer be a "novel" with heros and villians, but a cultural study and analysis of an anonymous cybervillage. The story will be based upon responses to events. It begins with the tainted Ohio elections and our responses to it, and will end with whatever responses are voiced to an event happening the day before I decide to call it quits.

Graham, I don't really care if someone decides to do something similar- it needs to be done by dozens of different authors- and not just from the left. It needs to happen at Freeper, DU, KOS, and Powerline. My interpretations will be different that anyone elses, even if they were to coincidently use exactly the same information. As you'll notice on my blog here, I've copyrighted what's been written- for what it's worth.

Without trying to make you more conceited that you appear to be (not a put down, and certainly not bad thing in my world) you are one of the most prolific and yet enigmatic characters here. If you don't want me to include you in this study, I won't. It'll lack some of the character that makes this forum so unique in the blogosphere, but it'll still move forward. It's your call.

I'll be posting changes as I write them- it'll be a work in progress, like watching a house being built from the concrete to the moving van. Participate if you wish, and enjoy if you can.

YOu choose to misinterpret for whatever reason.

You should care to answer your question

But have you seen a lawyer about this?

You can't say you are using real people, but changing the names to protect the innocent than say you are not using real people

What it should then be is a multi-copyright by anyone /everyone that is in there

Even if the others don't care.

But this wasn't my fullpoint. This should not have been broached on a public board like this. That was a big mistake.


Your new idea though, is then what I have railed against- saying I am not a worker ant in someone's case study

We are not test rats
Throw the ball to the right, see what they do, throw it to the left, etc.

It's not about the $$$, however, if $$$ are thrown, one would be a fool
not to bend down and pick them up

The reason alot of people don't like Bush is because are rights are going down the tube

I can't believe no one besides me brought up any of these thoughts
(I know you have w.s.as you put a © on it)

I can't though say what I want to say on a public board

You know, this asking for permission on a public board to a bunch of "handles"

that is not legal permission
Where are the release forms?
Where are the signatures?
One can say yes, then turn around

As people some of them, are anonymous, how does one go about signing a release form and giving okay?

You can't say, these are the characters, but of course we will change the name to protect the innocent, and it is fictional, but then it is fact

as it seems people here are friends one day, then a bad day or some bad posts
and you become mortal enemies (or worse---IGNORED---dah horror, dah, horror)

Yes I have talked to an attorney.

I actually know people in this survey- met them, know their names, etc.

I don't actually need permission to use quotations- even for copyrighted works- as long as the information is adequately cited. My copy contains MLA-style footnotes and a complete Works Cited page- they just don't copy onto a clipboard so I can't paste them here.

This will probably end up being an academic work; not much money in that. Most that'll happen is someone in an American Studies course at Yale, Wisconson or Cal State Fullerton will read it for background or human interest- or maybe even because it's well written- WTF, it could happen!

But I'll tell you what... if it makes the 'best seller' list, I'll pay for everyone's subscriptions next year, starting with you.

And like you say, Graham, it's anonymous. How can you make someone who is anonymous your mortal enemy? What, they're gonna kill your virtual webpage with the virtual bird flu?

Graham, this discussion is precisely the reason you'd be part of it- you question everything as if it were a clandestine plot hatched in the backrooms of CIA headquarters and triple-stamped "Double Extra Magnified Top Secretest Top Secret" with purple and blue ink on secret dissolving paper. I didn't call your chapter "The Tinfoil King" because you're in the metal business...

I'd love to know when you predict "one of these years" may happen graham, and I shudder to think that you may have so many skeletons in your closet that you have to be so on edge. After all, I am the one who winston labeled as "on the edge". My life is an open book pretty much. Nothing to hide that would get me into trouble.

KT

... except the trouble in your life...

You are missing an important point.

For one, this goes to the whole privacy issue, this goes to someone's personal right of publicity, and this goes to the republican way of outing people.(not sexually)...politically and you know these days what that could mean...

It is not as simple to wave off as one thinks.It gets actually rather complicated.

And say you have 10 people doing this, and each person gets their own people, well then you have 20 people

Let's take FD on the board as he is young...earlier today he wrote something very anti-choice on the board. Take this forward(just as an example)...He decides not only to go forward with it but to be out there front and center real name and all...(again he is young, so this would affect him more thanalot of us)...next time he goes for a job interview, maybe the head person is very pro-choice, so they google his name
and thenthere is a direct link to all he is, including then, every single word he ever wrote about guns and abortions...you and I knnow, something like that could lose you a job (there was a big article in today's NY Times on just that issue with google and prospective workers).

Did you think about that aspect?

In the real world, politics and business don't always mix, do they?

That is just one example if this is a physical book idea...

Now take it another step...

There might be people here that never would have joined the board had they known a book was going to be written about them

Take it another step forward

This theoretically can be used just like voter suppression was done so brilliantly in Florida and Ohio

Paranoid?
Well, it could cause someone not to open their mouth, when you think about it

Who does that help? Mostly the Bush's type of political side

Again, think about it, and keep applying it step by step by step...

There are at least 5 different major issues, each one taking time, and stress to think about

not to take anything away from the fun and "like wow" type thoughts

Sometimes being pragmatic takes on the form of party pooper I know...

To question everything is good business. I did not come here to give you material for a book.

If in a for profit type venture you quote say the Beatles, you can be damn sure you need their permission to print it.

On this board, one can cut and paste articles, because it is a not for profit venture.
The minute it would change to a for profit, every single company who found a quote here could demand you take it down.

Do you know, if yousell something on ebay say a Guicci bag, that ebay has the right to stop you from selling it altogether, because Guicci does not want their name in your ad, evenif you have a reciept, and that you the seller have no recourse and if you put it up a 2nd time, they will not let you sell anymore.

If you put out a book on Mariah Carey that includes stuff downloaded from internet, lyrics, photos, etc, if her people happen to notice, you will be hearing from them.

You cannot tape a tv show and sell it to someone, or music.

and regular people have the same, actually they have more rights than celebrities or politicians do...

anyhow...to be continued...

I hereby grant the party herein known as "Winston Smith" to use my posts
(all under the handle of "Pie") made on the forum known as CommonGround-CommonSense
in his creative writing endeavors. I realize that such posts are already on the internet and
I consider them to be in the public domain. Should such posts be incorporated into a fictional or non-fictional writing and be used against me in the future, I hold said "Winston Smith" harmless.

There's my "release" - not that I think it is needed. I am too old to allow the fear of repercussions to scare me away from my right to speak - my freedom of speech.

I realize that others may not feel the same way, and if so,
I suggest that they handle it however they see fit to do so.

pie- it's an interesting post, however, I would bet if it came to a court case, this not a legal binding document.
(especially as theoretically, someone else could post as you, be it a moderator or someone who got your password

So just theoretically, if something happened, you would then need to have a legal document along with legal costs and transaportation to the place where it happens...

This issue (and it is not so much with winston, but this could happen 20 other times, and maybe the next person is not someone you want yourself associated with

But say you live in Florida, and you would have to fight a lawsuit in Minn.
It costs time and money to get to that place in Minn to fight it

This sort of goes to the same arguments, funny enough as why bush should be censured or not censured

Because you never know the intent 3 months later with someone else

I give no one the authority the alter my posts or use them in any fashion whatsoever. It is the main reason I stopped posting here. I still post here(now) with the knowledge that it does and will happen though. Whether that is talking points on a talk show, or whatever else they could deem profitable I do not approve of. Be original. If you are too busy making money to be so, then look at that and discuss that. Do not steal my thoughts and claim them as your own.

Well, Graham, I am sure it is probably not legally binding.
What is these days ? I was trying to make a point.

Look, I trust Winston as much as anyone I know. And if I was to live my life constrained by "ifs"
then I would never do anything or go anywhere.

If I was so concerned about my posts here being used in a nefarious way, I would not make any posts here or anywhere else on the internet.

But I am me, and you are you, and everyone else is everyone else.

Wowser - I think to simple.

Question: has anyone read what I've written so far?

WS - I check every day..your entire blog. (well not tonite..) will go there now.

At this point take Pie's statement and release and ditto it for me. If it is not legal, oh well,! At this point, who knows what might get me first..the Repubs..bird flu, crime, etc... oh, let me add working at poverty wages, while I have a incredible experience with private non-profits and writing grants.
Sorry, no need for that right now..gotta take that money out and balance a budget.

winston-to answer your question, as I only found out about this what 2 days ago, and have been trying to get a coherent answer as to wtf I am talking about (and I see I still have not except for maybe areyoukiddingme getting it)...

It is NOT about you winston...nor is it about me but in a way its about everything and everyone. And it shouldn't be shooed off so quickly
that two or three years from now,(yes, assuming there is life 2 or 3 yrs. from now), you will be kicking yourself in the rear and think, I got it now, I know what he meant... You can't get that back once it's gone
(cryptic...)

Graham,

I guess you and I are making exactly, precisely, the same point and coming to different conclusions. No one will be able to copy my text because no one will be able to think my thoughts, and what goes onto my blog here will be different that anything that might go to a publisher. For an academic study like this, the author will have to provide evidence of all their research- and that will never be included in my blog. And without the footnotes and works cited, no publisher will publish an academic work. And if someone wants to take my research and turn in into a novel- well, I wish I could do that but the Muses didn't bless me with that Art.

What I'm saying is: I hope someone gets an idea from this. If someone wanted to write something else about CGCS, I'm OK with that because what they have to say will be different than what I have to say, and their conclusions will be different than mine.

I would hope a cultural analyst like me from FreeRepublic, RedStates.org or Powerline.org, Malkin or Drudge for that matter, looks at the dialogue in their forum over the last two years and attempts to find historical and cultural meaning therein. There will be transformations in thought- history- and from that context will be formed our contemporary state of being.

I'm writing a history book of liberal culture and CGCS is a primary document. One can copyright the words written to describe the history, but you can't copyright the history itself.

a perusal of copyright orgs...found this question/answer...
check the last one
A copyright under this reading would refer to you and to any poster.

Our words are NOT public domain. Our words are © to whoever wrote it




What is a "copyright"?
Under the United States Copyright Act found at Title 17 of the U.S. Code, creators of original materials are granted exclusive rights, generally referred to as the creator's "copyrights."

Why is copyright so important?
U.S. copyright law is derived from specific language in the Constitution and exists to foster creativity and spur the distribution of new and original works.

When does copyright “happen”?
Copyright protection exists from the time the work is created in a fixed, tangible form of expression. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author, or those deriving their rights through the author, can rightfully claim copyright. In the case of works made for hire the employer, not the writer, is considered to be the author.

What is protected by copyright?
In the United States, copyright protection is provided by the government to the authors of “original works of authorship, including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works.” This protection is available to both published and unpublished works, regardless of the nationality or domicile of the author.

What are the rights of the copyright holder or creator?
One of the rights exclusive to copyright holders (rightsholders) is the right to reproduce their works (e.g., photocopies, post to Web sites, etc.). Copyright holders also have the right to prepare derivative works, to distribute copies for sale, and to perform the work publicly, as in the case of motion pictures, videos and plays.

Is content found on the Internet considered to be in the public domain and therefore not copyright-protected?
No. The legal concept of the public domain as it applies to copyright law should not be confused with the fact that a work may be publicly available, such as information found in books or periodicals, or on the Internet. The public domain comprises all those works that are either no longer protected by copyright or never were. Any content in a non-digital form that is protected by copyright will be protected in a digital form. For example, print books are protected by copyright as are electronic books. Analog musical recordings are protected by copyright as are digital musical recordings. A print letter is protected by copyright as is an e-mail letter (both generally owned by the author of that letter or e-mail). Web sites may be protected by copyright as a single work, and also the many different embedded works that are in that Web site may be individually protected by copyright.

Yes! I read it yesterday.

The above means, if I write a paragraph, that is © to me

Graham, you are 100% correct. And if I take that sentence and claim it- or the kernal of idea it contains- as my own, two things happen. 1) Academically I'm guilty of plagiarism; and 2) legally I have infringed upon your copyright. Thus, even paraphrasing without proper attribution is considered copyright infringement. For me, the plagiarism is the greater concern of the two.

You have to look at the exceptions to copyright; the press is one, and academic literature is another of those exceptions. As long as the quotation is exactly as you stated, and it is correctly attributed to you, then it is no longer an infringement of your copyright.

The reasons for the exceptions should be obvious.

And...?

Don't get your panties in a frist (a new verb form ). I hadn't planned on using anything from you, anyhow...

in a non-fiction not for profit venture, you are correct.

A for profit, fiction book would be different though
(and fiction doesn't really have many acknowledgements...well, depending on what type...

There was a book where a chef did a book using Julia Child recipe's...
but Julia enthusastically gave permission ...but had she not the chef couldn't have done that

A for-profit non-fiction does not have to get permission either, which is what I'm writing. No fiction at all; it's a cultural analysis of the liberal narrative through the lenses of the blogosphere.