http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...lled+to+testify


Officially a grand jury has called forth a democratic chain of command to come testify, bringing their information with them.

In combing through voter rolls, party leaders uncovered 17 registered voters who live at a residence he owns. The home in question turned out to be a boarding house

It sounds as though this guy is also a landlord and his tenants voted. So what. As long as he didn't pay them to do so.

Then again, this is just the beginning. It goes both ways, and obviously the fight is the key in order to abolish this abysmal process and institute real reform. I heard allegations of other countries now having control over the voting of the USA, and such insanity has never been uttered before

So yes, federal grand jury, indictments, the whole thing. Its like an explosion....

Still, its nice to see that the ball is rolling..

hopefully he has legal assistance... we don't want this to take the investigations a step backwards...

Yes, oddly enough all sides are seeing how bad this is.

Here is the latest tidbit reported to me:

Freeper workers allege that India, and terrorists have control over the voting and thus can decide anytime they want who becomes president. A new level of control

So in this case, its blowing up so ugly the civil rights groups should definitely make the motion, abolish the horrible ugly electoral college alltogether for good, definitely get rid of the voting manufacturers, and instill a full wide audited TrueVote system like they have in colorado with the paper trail.

Then decide who's president, either agreeing on one or the other.

Our democracy and civil rights are a public joke now, even freepers admit it, who agree with the republicans now but think terrorists in the end are going to rig it.

Isn't it amazing how quickly a grand jury is whipped up for alleged Democratic voter fraud, yet there has been no court action in any of the tens of thousands of cases of reported voter fraud on the other side of the fence.

This country is becoming so fascist it is unreal.

Not really. Evidence is required to convene a grand jury. Is it possible that, in this case, they simply had enough evidence?

But, what tends to prove MY point is that people posted here defending this guy or, at the very least, not crucifying him. If he were a Republican, he would have been tried and convicted by most of you. But, because he is a Democrat you treat him with kid gloves???

That is exactly what I mean about my doubts about most people really, truly caring about voter fraud and making every vote count as opposed to only caring whether their candidate wins or loses.

well, it would be nice if you republicans would practice what you preach. Holding your own with kid gloves is a sickening process especially when it comes down to a war. When will you call for the prosecution of your President?

I believe that EVERYONE should be treated equally. Any Democrats or Republicans that evidence shows have contributed to voter fraud in any manner, should be arrested, tried then shot.

But, it sounds to me like you are making the *two wrongs make a right* argument.

On edit: Just out of curiosity, what would you prosecute Bush for? (that you can actually cite evidence for)

It appears to be that way on the radio by trying to skirt the issue. Yet the berkeley report and all the evidence out of the court hearings and other states were just released.....I'd keep an eye out.

I believe that EVERYONE should be treated equally. Any Democrats or Republicans ??????

do you remember carol Hubbard Dem from ky that went to prison for missaprotaion of campaign funds. now they are trying to protect tom delay, looks like some of the same to me

Fine. If he is just as guilty, then try, convict and sentence him too.

You will NEVER hear me try to defend anyone who can be proven, with evidence, to be guilty of a crime.

Also: Prosecute Bush and Clinton. It doesn't matter, and its obviously nothing but inevitable anyway.

But these assessments on free republics parts that this issue doesn't effect them--More dead wrong standing tactics. Their votes will just as likely have the same widescale fraud problems and fiscal nightmares, which could favor libertarians or whoever you want. Because there is no accountability, there is no paper trails, there is no reform.

Reform is required and mandatory discipline with legal audits in every area, regardless of the final man in the WH.

A Democratic forum??? Really??? Hmmmmm... I thought this was a forum for progressives, moderates and independents no matter their party affiliation.....

Correct me if I am wrong.....

And, you are saying that it is OK, then, to hold Republicans accountable, but not Democrats?

Nice name-calling. That will get you far.

It is inevitable that Bush and Clinton will be prosecuted? For what?

For the record, I supported Clinton completely during that whole impeachment farce. Why should I care who, or what, the President is diddling?? He is human like the rest of us. Nice to be reminded of that actually.

They ARE the LAW. Yea unto themseves! <_<

Nope, the freerepublic got that one wrong right off the bat.

When a so called person is a fascist criminal, with every thing up the wazoo, including widespread vote tampering its of no other consequence. It is neo consortism and clinton definitely engaged in it, I don't think anyone with real activist background lets him off the hook. Sex, lies, rock and roll and NATO. Just all under a different guise. Today its in a far worse light, and in the face of any democracy even left.

They (the Republican party) doesn't need you to defend them! They are quite capable of manipulating the law to defend themselves and persecute their enemies!

Sadly, yes that is correct. Fascists bind to no laws they bind to action and reform.

No. Nor do the Democrats. Let's be honest, there are members of BOTH parties who engage in *less than legal* practices.

I don't defend ANY of them.

Many members of all parties are neocons, but the ones that aren't far outweigh the number.

Read again, even Activism said "It goes both ways." Others said similar as well. Plus, Activism brought it to everyone's attention in the first place. Nice try but no cigar.

You are trying way too hard to find something wrong with every single topic regarding this issue, yet you keep on clicking in knowing you have your mind made up even before you read a single word.

I want every person guilty of fraud to be caught and punished.

It could be said the other way, you are trying way too hard to make those hundreds of NeoCons innocent.

Anyway, Activism, thanks for sharing this other side of the picture with us. I admire you for that.

And I, too, have been saying right along that EVERYONE should be punished who is guilty regardless of party affiliation and they should be treated equally. But, notice the tame nature of the posts in this thread and even people defending the person in the article.

All I was saying was that I found it interesting that an article like this would be posted about a Republican and people would slam him and have him already convicted and use that as *proof* of wide-spread election fraud. But, when it is a Democrat, sure it was mentioned, but look at the difference in the responses.

Besides, Activisms probably just misread the article, afterall, he hasn't slept in about 36 hours.

But, I also find it interesting that you state:

"I want every person guilty of fraud to be caught and punished.

It could be said the other way, you are trying way too hard to make those hundreds of NeoCons innocent."

You want EVERY person guilty of fraud caught and punished, but then you immediately accuse me of making hundrededs of *NeoCons* innocent.

Or am I reading a little too much into that?

yeah, I wondered about that too.

Justice should be equal and blind

True, but...

People misunderstand the Republican's understanding of justice. They think it's JUST US.

A Healthy debate is always welcome on this forum. Would just like to remind all to keep the discussion civil and not get bogged down in name calling. Thank you.

You are right, I am NOT *progressive*. I am a moderate plain and simple. No loyalties to either party. I like to weigh every issue on its merits and make up my own mind.

But, if being *progressive* means that I have to call people names when they disagree with me rather than even try to discuss facts, then I am glad I am not one and would rather not join the little club.

Hi,

I wasn't intending it quite how you took it, although I can see why you did.

What I would like to see is for you to also look at the information people post with a less critical eye. IMO from what I read, you seem to be only looking for something you can find to criticize in order to prove them wrong. I would like to have you ALSO notice the possibilities as to why it might just be correct too and help see what you can find. I would wish you could help us prove it one way or the other instead of automatically dismissing everything you read. You could help search so we could ALL discover the truth.

There are tens of thousands of complaints this year about this issue of voter fraud. The majority of the incidents I have seen so far seem to be directed at Democrats by Republicans more than the other way around. We have seen everything from black felons (generally favor to Democrats) being purged from voting lists while hispanic felon voters (generally favor Bush) staying on the list and thousands more. It is like we have had to watch them like a hawk because they keep trying to sneak things in on us. If you turn your back the election is stolen. All of these tens of thousands of incidents, and not one Republican is guilty? They are all computer glitches? Some of these "glitches" are too unrealistic to "always" be "glitches". It is also frustrating to have the media be basically silent, or derogatory in their comments if they do mention it.

By the way, have you ever listened to Greg Palast's investigative report he did on the 2000 election? He, for one, came up with a lot of pertinent information regarding the election and fraud, as well as conducted interviews with some of those involved. It was basically dismissed by our own media. In fact, one reporter simply called up Jeb Bush and asked if it was true, Jeb said No, so the issue was dropped. It wasn't even followed up on.

The company hired during those elections had an extremely low accuracy rate, yet BushCo. hired that company after the elections. Now why would you hire a company with a failing record for accuracy? Why should our tax dollars be spent on hiring a company with basically a "nil" for accuracy? IMO, it would be as a reward for services rendered in stealing the election.

If you haven't already, please watch this and ask why our media virtually ignored it last election. (2000) This will explain what I just mentioned about the company.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/141003bush...lyfortunes.html

Here is the follow up on it:

http://www.mediachannel.org/views/whistleblower/palast.shtml

As for the other, I felt Activisms was not being biased, especially when he said, "It goes both ways." That sounds like a person who read the article and knew what it said, and was also showing both sides.

Has bross. read the posts and threads declaring the Democratic Party leadership to be Booooosh complicit wimps and sell outs?

When the media is owned by the very corporations who are getting special favors with the current administration, the general public cannot get the information it needs to make an educated choice.

When our government officials are being bribed, I'm sorry, being given "contributions" from major corporations, they will indeed "owe" those corporations for the money "contributed" to their campaign. There is no such thing as a free lunch. This means our government will be more vested in the interests of corporations, than they will be in our interest.

When corporations are allowed to mandate laws, regulations, restrictions, et al, the public loses because the corporations have only one concern, the happiness of their share holders and profit.

I just heard Robert Kennedy Jr. speak last night. I highly recommend his book, "Crimes Against Nature." He brings up a very strong argument for campaign finance reform.

For the republican members of this board I'd like to ask a question. Does this administration truly represent what the Republican Party espouses? Do they truly work toward smaller government? Are they fiscally responsible? Have they done much of anything in the past 4 years that looks remotely like Republican doctrine? Because if they have, I haven't seen it.

If those who support this administration were honest with themselves, they would have to acknowledge that this administration has done whatever it takes to cover their a**, not whatever it takes for the good of the country. They have destroyed the free market by stripping away laws and regulations that insist a company clean up it's environmental mess. That leaves the cleaning up costs to rest upon the heads of the people, or to not get cleaned up at all.

If our environment is destroyed, if our market only serves a few, where does that leave our country? If you strip the working class of the ability to earn a decent living, how are they supposed to buy the products produced by those who are still earning a profit on the financial backs of the working class? If their portfolia crashes on Wall Street, and the rest of us are too poor to care, does it make a sound?

Look, voting is the very base of a free society. If the elections are rigged, we all lose. Do you supporters of the current administration and it's practices truly believe they care about you and yours? Sorry, nothing I've see points to them having any compassion at all, not even for their own. Trust me, if it worked better for the interest of GWB to let Tom Delay hang in the wind, hang he would. They eat their own.

Whether we oust this "president" or not is not the point of fair election practices. If I can't trust that when I go to the polls and vote, that my vote is being fairly counted, then I can no longer trust my government. If I can't trust my government, then I will not be supporting my government. It's as simple as that. I know I am not alone.

I am trying very hard here to work toward making a difference for the 2006 elections. I am praying very hard that truth will win out and justice will be done. Because if it doesn't happen this way, well I'd rather not think about how it will have to happen. Taunt if you will, but remember history. Everytime a government tried to subjegate the peasants, the peasants rose up against that government and forced changes in leadership. We Americans might be fat and lazy, but if our government takes away the ability to feed and clothe our children, you will see a turn of events that I think you'd rather not see.

So, supporters of this administration, ask yourselves this, "Has this administration really done anything for me and mine that has truly earned my faith and respect? Do they truly have my best interest in mind when they lock people up without evidence, without sentence, without access to a lawyer, without a fair trial? And if they can do that to those people, what will it take for them to do that to me? Is it truly a free election when the only way they seem to be able to win is to "fix" the election?"

If they stole 2000, 2002 and 2004, what makes anyone think we will ever have a safe, fair election again? If they walk all over one group of people to get what they need to survive, what happens when your group is the only group left who stands between them and their prize?

If we succeed in reforming the money and politics of the electoral process, what will big business do, leave the United States in protest?

LMAO

They have to play by our rules in order to sell us their products and services, so they win no matter what, except when our interests are advanced and they must conduct themselves (as businesses) in a responsible manner and be accountable for their conduct, legally.

Well, what I seem to find is a lot of people who simply want to deem the election *stolen* and make the evidence fit that.

Sort of like in 2000. So many people will say THAT election was stolen. Was it? The only way to ever know who won for certain would be to, at the very least, recount EVERY single county in Florida. That was never done. We will never know and it should be left at that.

In this election, we still have no proof of wrongdoing by anyone (as far as the Presidential race is concerned, anyway). Certainly the recent events in Volusia County are odd, to say the least. But, we don't have that solid evidence yet.

The only evidence we have is that numbers don't seem to add up in some instances. But we must ask why they don't add up rather than jumping over the investigatory portion and saying: 'It must be fraud'.

Now, there is nothing wrong with saying, OK, I am going to study this issue. My hypothesis is that there was fraud, now I am going to look at the evidence and draw a conclusion from it. But then that conclusion must be backed by real evidence.

For example, I read a paper recently that had to do with environmental efforts at ski areas. The person who wrote the paper is a college professor. His conclusion was that large, corporate owned ski areas are not environmentally friendly.

His source of data for facts about the ski areas were fine. However, he used ONE, yes, only one source for environmental *data* (there was no actual data, just opinion): a small, local radical envronmental group.

Do you see what I am getting at? First, the evidence must prove the theory rather than ending up with the theory just being one of many explanations for the evidence. Also, the evidence itself must be incontrovertable or else it is too easily debunked.

you know Activisms...I might have taken exception with that statement a year ago...NOT TODAY..

but I don't think the disease STOPS with Clinton...I think the DNC and DLC is also infected. Which is why I will most probably move on to more activist groups. The DNC is dead following this road as far as I'm concerned and they silence in protecting Republican Democracy is RESOUNDING LOUD to me. I'm up for a fight .... cause

EVIL FLOURISHES WHEN GOOD PEOPLE DO NOTHING!

and I am not going to be manure for entrenched interests to feed the machine.

brossingol, I am in agreement with you that more harm than good will come from hyping wild claims that can easily be debunked. However, there are enough cases of odd technology failures and statistical anomalies to raise real doubts in my mind. I am by nature skeptical and cautious. But here's the situation:

Vote fraud via electronic technology is hard to detect, much less prove. Computer experts have been saying for quite some that our voting system is vulnerable to this. Yet everytime the issue is raised, the response seems to be that there is no need to worry about this because no fraud has been proven. Do you see the trap of circular reasoning that this creates?

The only way we are going to get to any kind of solid truth is an independent audit of some kind based on examination of physical objects (such as ballots, poll tapes, etc.). However, if we are going to have any shot at that, time is of the essence. So what we must consider is not whether there is proof of fraud but rather whether there is sufficient probable cause to invoke the legal remedies available to secure the physical evidence necessary for such an audit.

Not unlike some forums one visits where the members claim this admin was elected *with a clear mandate*....a total fallacy by anyone but the most blind measure....


I generally agree that all violators of any sort of election fraud should be hung by their toes naked in every public square across the nation...

However, a serious problem arises in this sort of equity statement when one side is privey to the bullypulpit of the office(s) and all the ensuing power of same, while the other side is handcuffed by a court system installed by their foes, a stacked legislature installed with questionable fairness and a silenced *fourth estate*...


Were the playing field completely equal, I would agree with you wholeheartedly...but it's not equal...not even close to equal...

So, you get an outraged public crying foul at each turn....and IMHO, rightly so...force all the doors open and then discuss the situation in all lights...


I'd stack any Dem official against Rove and company and not worry one whit about the Dems coming out on the cleaner side of the street...

If I'm wrong, prove it...

I can pretty much agree with everything, but the "odd technology failures" thing.

Anyone who has used computers for a long time knows that these kinds of technolgy failures are anything but odd. Besides, they were probably 'features', not bugs.

As one who has used computers for a long time, I don't see how all these failures can be considered "anything but odd." First of all, the technology is a lot more stable than it was 8-10 years ago. Second, most of these failures should have been found in the testing. The real wonderment is how this company has stayed in business if this is the junk they deliver to their customers. That is, if these are mere "glitches" in the system.

However, this much uniformity of error that has nothing in common beyond the use of these machines (per the Berkley study), just doesn't happen randomly.

There is more likelihood that this was a planned "error." Sorry, I don't buy this as being nothing more than a mere computer glitch.

It was a joke.

Seriously, though, I know there were errors, certainly. But, there is still no evidence that the errors were the result of any fraudulent activity.

I also know, for a fact, that the Diebold software, at least, is junk. Would it be out of the question that at least some of these errors were simply due to their inept programming?

Of course, if that is the case, then I see lawsuits on the horizon for a VERY long time. And, even if no fraud can ever be found, what if Diebold's sheer incompetence resulted in what amounts to a fraudulent election? Certainly we could expect that someone in that company would be held criminally responsible.

[quote=MrJim,Nov 18 2004, 06:12 PM]
Ski-brain wrote:



Foul!!! Name calling.

[quote=PaineInTheArse,Nov 19 2004, 07:29 PM]
[quote=MrJim,Nov 18 2004, 06:12 PM]
Ski-brain wrote:



Foul!!! Name calling.

[/quote]

Oh, c'mon, that should only be a yellow card!!!

Martha Stewart is in jail for what GWB has already done himself in the past.
Check out # 97
He violated federal securities law when he failed to notify the security exchange commission that he had sold 200 shares of his company....
Read and inform yourself


http://www.thenation.com/special/pdf/100facts.pdf

Oh, I don't doubt it. Loads of people do this every day. But Martha Stewart is not actually in prison for violating SEC regs, she is there for lying to Federal agents about it.

Wouldn't it be cool if one day someone like that just came out first and said: "I made a mistake, I accept the consequences for it." If she had done that, she would likely have been slapped on the wrist with some fines.

Now, for Bush, isn't it obvious that he just had the right connections? Seriously. How many people have cop friends who *fix* tickets for them? How many people would turn down a chance like that?

I have a bigger problem with anyone, including Bush, lying about what they did than I do with what they actually did (when it involves something as tame as SEC violations).

Do you know that my biggest problem with Bush is not that he makes mistakes, it is that he simply cannot admit them? That is NOT a good leadership trait.

Ah humor! Yes, ok, I can recognize that emotion! :D

If this was indeed merely poor programming, it would be more equal among the candidates. As it is, everything that's being found is in Bush's favor. That just doesn't make sense as a mere accident. Also, I'm sorry but when the CEO promises to deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush, then their machines start making mistakes, all in Bush's favor, well that just doesn't smell right.

Well, we can always agree to disagree. Or, if you want to wager we can always find an online bookie. I seriously doubt that this is all just coincidence, but the truth is, if what's been coming forward already hasn't convinced you otherwise, then the only thing that will is a signed, sealed conviction.

I've sat on two juries, which doesn't by any means make me an expert, but it does help establish the concept of "reasonable doubt" and from everything I'm seeing this goes beyond reasonable doubt. If I were on this jury and heard what I have heard so far, I'd convict and I don't convict quickly.

See, and that is exactly the thing... I have reasonable doubt. Meaning, as long as there is more than one plausible explantion for the voting *irregularities*, there is certainly reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt does not mean you need complete assurance of guilt for conviction. It only means if you have a reasonable amount of doubt about the evidence, then you shouldn't convict. A lot of people confuse that issue and I've spent as much as an extra day in the jury room with people who get confused on that aspect.

I respect your right to not be fully committed, just keep an open mind because you will never get a confession of guilt out of this group, nor will you get anything that people on our end aren't willing to dig up. They don't give up anything, not willingly, not even when told by a court that they must. This is a group that is very adept to secrecy and covering their hineys. To be honest, I'm surprised at what has come out, although what I have also noticed what they can't hide, they just mock and call conspiracy theory.

No, I don't need complete assurance of guilt. What I am looking for is the point, if we ever get there, that fraud is the most plausible explanation, not the only explanation.

Right now, it is only one of several completely plausible explanations which is enough to keep me from *convicting* anyone at this point.