Army suicide rate last year highest since 1999

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The number of soldiers who took their own lives while serving in Iraq and Afghanistan rose in 2005 over the previous year, as the U.S. Army experienced its highest suicide rate since 1999, officials said on Friday.

The Army released statistics showing that 12.9 per 100,000 U.S. soldiers committed suicide in 2005, up from 11.0 per 100,000 in 2004. The 2005 suicide rate was the highest for the Army since 13.1 per 100,000 in 1999.

The Army is the largest service in the U.S. military and provides most of the troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Pentagon also released data showing the suicide rate in 2005 dropped from the previous year in both the Marine Corps and the Navy. Air Force data was unavailable. (Comment: Because the Navy/Marines stopped reporting deaths as suicide, instead labeling them as 'accidents'?)

Army officials discounted the notion that the increase was caused by mounting combat stress on deployed soldiers as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan grind on. Officials said the Army rate remained lower than the rates for U.S. civilians.

Last year, 83 Army soldiers on active duty committed suicide, 25 while deployed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the Army said. In 2004, 67 soldiers on active duty committed suicide, 14 while deployed for those wars, the Army said.

"We're not alarmed," said Col. Joseph Curtin, a senior Army spokesman at the Pentagon.

Curtin noted that last year's total for suicides in Iraq and Afghanistan was identical to the number who killed themselves while serving in the two wars in 2003. A total of 76 U.S. soldiers committed suicide in 2003, including 25 deployed in those wars.

Full Article

(Comment: HORSE "expletive deleted")

Exposure to violence is a frequent factor in suicide deaths.

A few years ago one of my favorite nephews, who had served on the police force of a large city for 19 years, killed himself. I think he had seen all the violence that humans can inflict on each other just too many times, his area of expertise was domestic violence.These are experiences that time doesn't fade out the painful and devastating effects on the survivors. If you haven't been there, pray you never are placed there by events like that. The military aspect undoubtedly would add another layer of agony.

lenal

You might think it's horse****, but my son is a Marine and he knows of a few deaths that have suspiciously been called accidents. I'm assuming you're a Marine as well, so you very well know the military isn't always honest with the public. (Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman ... shall I go on?)

Don't think so! Just what did you base your comment on? Was it just conjecture?

Reason I say that is 'cause all morbidity reportin' for Marine casualties and deaths is done usin' very specific ICDA codes. Any playin' round with that codin' could easily result in a service losin' accreditation for its medical teachin' programs, eh?

Now I realize I only served 30 years in the Navy, and only two thirds of that was providin' medical services and support to the Marines. Consequently I may not know as much as you think you do, but methinks I do know loss of accreditation for medical teachin' programs would be so totally devastatin' that I really can't see what you claim as even bein' remotely possible.

The Tillman case demonstrates just how the credibility factor takes a dive.

Here is a detailed recent article about the screw ups:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL


lenal

So what's not credible about the people there telling what they saw when Pat Tilman died?

Have you ever been in a fire fight?

If you had, you would know there would be as many stories about what "really" happened as there were people there. You will never find a situation more chaotic than a fire fight, what you expect to happen won't, and what you didn't expect will.

The only thing I've seen which is not credible about the stories coming out about the death of Pat Tillman is the stories liberals make up to politicize it.

Well, yeah, I am a Marine. I only had 30 years active duty and rose to the rank of E-9 Master Gunnery Sergeant. I also know making up stories is a sure fire way for a senior Staff NCO to get his ass in a crack and not be as senior as he was before or as wants to be.

I found out a long time ago it's easier to tell the truth because then you don't have to remember a made up story you told somebody.

And I've never, ever seen a suicide covered up as a training accident. Give me a reason why someone would want to do that? Young people occassionally commit suicide, in my 30 years of active service I've had 2 people in my charge commit suicide. I didn't see it comming, no one around them saw it coming, no one knows why they did it.

Yeah, I'd like for you to elaborate how dishonest the military is with the public, (Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman ... please do go on, I'd like to hear it)

Gosh, D103 should be cut some slack, as she has a son serving and is entitled to her opinion based upon what she has heard from her son.

It's been my life experience that all organizations put out spin or try to portray things in the best light- human nature can foul up the rules and usually does.

----------

If no one else will thank D for her son's service, I will.

Extensive information at the link, have only snipped a couple of paragraphs:



http://www.usmc-mccs.org/LeadersGuide/Emot...icide/index.htm

Suicidal Behavior

Suicide is the second leading cause of death in the Marine Corps. Even one death by suicide is too many. It is a tragic and preventable loss, causing untold grief to loved ones and units, and is of highest concern to the public, legislators, the Commandant, and all Marines. In addition, suicide and suicidal behavior at all levels can take a tremendous toll on the readiness and resources of the unit involved. For all these reasons, suicide awareness, prevention, and intervention must be of highest priority to all Marines, and especially Marine leaders.




For more information on this topic to include definitions, risk factors, why Marines may not seek help, and prevention, please select the general information tab above. If you are looking to solve a specific problem please select one of the specific problem tabs above. Under each specific problem you will find an overview that discusses the specific problem as well as what to look for, what to do, what to avoid, what to expect after taking action, and troubleshooting.


==================##############================

The link is a Leadership Guide for Marines. I salute it for recognizing the problem and offering training for coping with it, much better than denying it.


lenal

Please cite what you are referring to when you accuse "liberals"" of making up stories.

Yep us libruls are monsters.
Funny I used to be an Eisenhower R.
People that never change have never learned.

Also I have recent experience of how difficult it is to describe an event that is fatal, out of the blue, and unique. I'll spare you the gory details, it happened Dec 2 2005. I don't wish to scrape at the scab.


Don't try to paint me as unpatriotic, that's as far off the mark as the Tillman event as it was initially peddled to of all people, the family.

You're out of line.

And Mods if you want to eliminate this go right ahead.


lenal

The military lied not only to the public, but to Tillman's own family about how he died and who killed him. Unless you've been under a rock (and I'm certain you haven't been), you've heard or read about the case. So why are you pretending the military doesn't mislead the public?

One article on Tillman: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable

Make sure you note this paragraph at the bottom of the page:

He'll appreciate that .. as do I.

The moderator will simply repost this quote from D103486's signature as a reminder of what the goal of CGCS is:


The moderator will also thank D103486 for her son's service, Marine for his service, and Flydangler for his service.

The moderator asks that the discussion remain civil. Let's just assume the motives of all involved in the discussion are honorable.

Cardinal
A member of the Moderating Team

That's right lenal, we train to cope with it, to try to recognize it so we can avert it, to understand it's aftermath. BUT WE DON'T POLITICIZE IT.

Which returns to the assertion I made, it's easier to tell the truth because:
1) You don't have to remember the story that was made up.
2) When it's found out it will have adverse consequences upon your career.

I have read quite a bit about Tillman's death (except the left wing web sites who wish to politicize it) and it is consistant with what every combat action I have ever been in. If 20 people were there, you will get 20 different stories, some of which will not sound like they happened on the same planet. That patrol had confusion and busted planning written all over it, welcome to combat.

Sorry, I closed your article soon as I read the by line. Robert Collier is too much a darling of the anti-war crowd for me to believe much of anything he writes.

Like you I wonder about things such as why you pretend that the left isn't politicizing the death of a fine man. Do you think politicizing it will some how stop war?

Sorry, but methinks a generalized comment, even from someone's kin servin', don't give anyone the right to make a specific allegation besmirchin' the reputation of the Marines and Navy. To bring what the Army did in a couple cases in as proof positive that these two services did and are doin' somethin' dishonest is, IMHO, in its self dishonest, eh?The two organizations that are bein' accused have, from my own experiences, done just about everything they can to get it right when dealin' with suicides and deaths under questionable circumstances. Every noncombat death and lost time injury, and even those in combat where there's any question a death or injury occurred from anything other than enemy action, requires a JAG MAN investigation and report into the circumstances.

Methinks suicides are tricky in that you wanna be certain that's what it really was before callin' it that. 'Cause of the stigma attached you also don't wanna call a death a suicide unless sure that's really what it was, eh?

You've also gotta consider what can and would happen to any medical personnel found complicit in coverin' up any suicides. eh? Do you really think any Navy physician would be willin' to toss away their professional future IOT spin somethin' like this? I don't!

Here are a few links to references that anyone really interested might wanna check out:

1. Navy & Marine Corps Mishap and Safety Investigation, Reporting and Record Keeping Manual

2. Marine Corps Ground Mishap Investigation and Reporting Manual

3. Navy Occupational Safety and Health (NAVOSH) Program Manual For Forces Afloat

4. Credentials Review and Privileging Program (for Navy medical personnel)

5. Manual of the Judge Advocate General (JAGMAN) (for the Navy and Marine Corps)

Those are just a few, but methinks provide all the information necessary for anyone actually interested to get my points, eh? If you need more just say the word!You're absolutely right to draw us up by the short hairs for that! My apologies for lettin' it slip in the fervor of the discussion, eh?Thank you for that! Methinks it supports what the Master Guns and I've been tryin' to get across here.And we (meanin' the Navy and Marine Corps) don't try to hide it or cover it up in any way!

I ain't gonna say Marines and sailors are perfect in this, eh? They're human, and so methinks make mistakes. That's a far cry from intentionally coverin' up or misreportin' suicides as alleged though, aint it?

If anyone's wonderin' why the Master Guns and I feel so strongly 'bout this y'all might wanna consider a couple easy to understand concepts:

We both gave significant portions of our lives servin' in the organizations (Marines and Navy) whose reputations are under attack here by folks that seem to wanna tag them without any really credible and or substantive data.

Methinks we both saw how the systems of these two services really work, and work they do!

Speakin' only for myself it'll be a cold day in hell when I sit idly by while someone tries to impugn the honor and reputation of these two military services with conjecture and hyperbole that flies in the face of what I saw after havin' served in and with them for such a long period of time. It ain't gonna happen on my watch!

Respect is a two way street! I'll respect anyone's attempt to say somethin' 'bout these two branches of the American military as long as it's on point and substantiated. Methinks you've gotta respect that rhetorical attacks will be responded to with vigor.

"The Army released statistics showing that 12.9 per 100,000 U.S. soldiers committed suicide in 2005, up from 11.0 per 100,000 in 2004. The 2005 suicide rate was the highest for the Army since 13.1 per 100,000 in 1999.

"The Army is the largest service in the U.S. military and provides most of the troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan."


I believe alot of it has to do with what some COs have said:
"alot of it involves bad news from home". I believe that for
two reasons:

1) Many of the Army Reserve and National Guard got jerked
out of a traditional role (being held in reserve to take on
support roles when regulars are sent to war and guarding
the nation and states under governors' oversight) and thust
into war, often for repeated tours.

2) The pressure on marraiges and family economics is
extensive, especially for the Guard and Reserve who
left civilian jobs, often for lessor paying military MOSs.

If one month you are driving to a job and coming
home at 5 p.m. to be with family - and a couple of months
later you are in Iraq for a year - that's a shock.

If late in that tour, or in a second one, you learn your vehicle
and/or house are being repossesed; or your spouse has decided
to leave you - it can be crushing. When weapons are part of
your daily routine - well, some cave and eat barrels.

I also understand how some suicides may be ruled
accidents...again handling weapons daily...and a
hesitation to tell family their head killed themselves
willingly. If there was a question, I'd probably come
down on the "accident" side, not as an effort to improve
statistics, but on behalf of a family.

If there is a message in the increased suicide rate...I
would suggest it rests more with the make up of
the tours and the units sent on them than SOP.

And, by the way D103486:
Thank your son for his service, and thank you for your
family sacrifice in providing him. Despite my disagreement
with policy and tactics of this administration I deeply
believe The Winter Soldiers of the United States are
truely our greatest asset. From their roots in Valley Forge,
to The Central Highlands of Vietnam, to Fallujah - I can
think of no others I'd rather call "Brother".

Add to this the fact the Army has a much longer average tour length in theater (double that of the other services) and uses a much larger reserve and/or National Guard component, eh?

Methinks, if true, that the Army's suicide rate, even considerin' this newly reported increase, is much lower than that seen in the American civilian community says somethin' too. I know they and the other services have flooded the combat theater in Iraq and Afghanistan with mental health professionals and worked hard to remove the stigma associated with seein' 'em.

(chuckle_ ) I have a bit of a hearing loss.


lenal

I can relate to this from personal experience. Although there was significant circumstantial evidence to suggest the death was a suicide, there was no way to disprove that the individual's death in this case was anything but accidental. This was not in a military situation but very well could have been. You're correct about the stigma and I guess I will just add the additional burden placed it places on the next of kin. Too many what if's and if only's when that may not have been the case. Sometimes the truth is elusive.

Did I ever tell you all that I was a landlord or property manager for all my working career ? Yep, 33 years of loyal service to the folks who rent rather than own. And I tried to do right by them, too. And follow the rules and laws. It was profession that many did not honor while others did. And I have had guns pulled on me at 3am, helped the police with undercover work on several occasions, found dead bodies (two suicides), been threatened more than once by drug crazed individuals, and been called every name in the book. I also had the honor of taking at least three of my renters to AA meetings, helping others get to the hospital, caring for ill tenants, and countless other such things. But, alas, there were others in the same business who did not do right by renters and did not follow the rules. Some got caught; some didn't. So, when I hear someone disparage my profession, I am willing to concede that there are bad apples - in every area of life, every profession, every walk of life.

Sorry, but methinks your analogy don't fit.

Was what you did governed by a hard, fast set of rules and laws that the compliance with was reviewed at many different levels? Navy and Marine Corps morbidity reportin' was and is, and if them tryin' to bend the rules don't take the subtle hints they get from reviewin' authorities to knock it off and correct the errors 'tis a real career ender!

It can result in a complete halt to your professional career (which methinks you'll admit for a physician or career military officer might be devastatin', if not worse), punishment (includin' possible incarceration) and loss of all accrued benefits. Does it still seem like somethin' plausible to you?

Exactly.

Some people on this thread have implied I was besmirching the Marines/Navy, when I intended no such thing. I have the greatest respect for our military and am proud beyond words that my son is (what he decided he was going to be at 14-years-old) a Marine. My only point was that the zero suicides reported from the Marines/Navy didn't sound completely truthful. But, as you wrote, under questionable circumstances I can easily see a death being ruled accidental (rather than suicide) for the sake of the family. And I can't honestly say I disagree with it -- it would be far easier for a family to live with the loss of their child/spouse due to an accident, than the knowledge that they had fallen into complete hopelessness. I also, unfortunately, know from experience, how difficult living with a suicide in the family is -- even when you understand the daily horrors with which they were living.

Then maybe you'd be so kind as to let us know your intent in this note when in your own editorial comment you said "(Comment: Because the Navy/Marines stopped reporting deaths as suicide, instead labeling them as 'accidents'?)", eh? Methinks that additional comment was what so much of this was 'bout.

'Twould seem in a subsequent notes you tried to use the actions of the Army in backin' up your claim that the Navy and Marines were bein' dishonest. Might be that that led to even further confusion when you painted the entire United States military with a very broad brush. Sure seemed like you were "besmirching the Marines/Navy" to me! I'm sorry, the Navy and Marines reported what? That certainly wasn't contained, or even implied in the original story you posted in your initial note.

Methinks 'twould be most helpful if you'd provide a reference for this information, with a link please. Don't think I've ever seen that claim anywhere else, so methinks you must have a source I don't know 'bout.

And, 'cause I did fail to mention it before, please thank your son for his service.

Absolutely. Not probable but certainly plausible or possible.
An example: civilian doctors lose their licenses every day for taking actions that
are against medical ethics. I can think of no profession in which there are no fallible members.

As for my analogy, being thrown in jail for breaking the
law or losing a business one has worked years to build
would certainly be devastating. And, yes, there are strict Landlord-Tenant
laws. And , yes, landlords get sued every day- justly or unjustly.
But that was not my point.

My point was that every profession,
no matter what it is
has at least a few bad apples in it.

More importantly, a very nice, respectful clarification was given by another member
but was not accepted in kind.

Very disappointing.

Note the question mark.

Yeah, I guess, but methinks, or at least hope you might understand my strong feelin's on this.Yup! Also noted you apparently blew off the rest of this note, eh?

What the article said is the Marines have not released any data. There is a difference between not yet releasing data and saying there were no suicides.

Suicide leaves everyone left behind questioning themselves on why they didn't see it coming and why they didn't help the individual. Suicide hurts the people left behind is all that happens.

I know in the two cases I had in my unit it sure did me. I had to go to counseling on one because I thought the individual was a really fine person with everything to live for. Had they not left a suicide note it would have probably been classified as an accidental overdose because no one saw them as depressed or suicidal. Committed suicide because they got passed over for promotion, I recommended them for advancement but they didn't have the cutting scores. If they'd wait another couple of months they would have got that promotion.

The other one was just as perplexing; the guy was the company clown, everyone liked him and from all appearances he was a happy individual. He was in my squad and I was an E-4 squad leader. One of the guys found him hanging from a shower head, left no note, no one disliked him, the night before he was his jovial self, we don't know why he did it. I was only 24 and should have got counseling on it, it still bothers me. At 24 you believe yourself bullet proof though.

Actually it said the followin' 'bout the Marines: "The Pentagon also released data showing the suicide rate in 2005 dropped from the previous year in both the Marine Corps and the Navy." 'Twas the Air Force for which data was unavailable, eh?

LOVE THOSE NAVY AND MARINE MANUALS DOC!!!! I'd almost forgot what a joy it is to wade through one of those.

They always thought I was a little strange because I'd read that kind of stuff for amusement. Might be why I eventually made E-9, eh?

Opps.

What time does the beatings commence?

Methinks I really messed up, and hurt and/or really irritated someone in the process. When askin' 'bout what seemed like very questionable information and comments 'twas not my intention to impugn anyone's reputation. If that's the way it came across I am truly sorry, eh? Hopefully my apology will help put this right.

If anyone here's more interested in the facts more'n the rhetoric 'bout the subject of suicides in the military methinks they might wanna check out "Navy takes action to curb suicides among sub crews" from the May 2, 2006 edition of The Virginian-Pilot.

'Tis still surprisin' to me that there's been almost no comment here on the reportin' that suicide rates in the military seem to be considerably lower than in America's civilian community, eh? I wonder why?