About a year ago, some person who calls himself glubglubglub wrote this piece in "response" to a blog by Jeff Wells:


"... The common idea that Bush and his bosses want to use another 9/11 type terrorist attack to drum up support for further military action in the middle east is probably half-right at this point and was at some point in the past closer to completely correct; for all their apparent bumbling in the foreign policy sector the faction bush is public head of is pretty astute on domestic politics -- I'd argue that when they get the tone wrong domestically it's because of a need to humor their base and not very often because they make a misjudgment -- and the domestic mood right now, I think, is such that a major terrorist attack on American soil would likely backfire, or is likely enough to backfire to make it too risky a strategy to take. Thus, I strongly doubt we'll see a staged terror attack in the states anytime soon unless things are far far far too desperate for the bushites behind the scenes.

If we have another terror attack on American soil sometime soon, odds are it won't be of 9/11 scale and it will be at least in part authentic islamic terrorism, although it may be augmented by malevolent elements -- the bush cabal, again, or someone higher up than that -- to ensure its success and psychological impact; given the narrow tightrope between an obviously catastrophic -- and probably staged -- attack and a smaller but possibly unconvincing authentic terror attack I'm inclined to think the political minds in DC will not attempt the former and will not be overly motivated to LIHOP the latter.

On the other hand, the window of opportunity to broaden the campaign in the middle east is fading pretty quick: Iran will have nukes soon (a good thing in my mind, ceteris paribus, but that's another day's topic), the worse the situation in Iraq and now Afghanistan becomes the mroe additional troops will be needed just to hold onto the territory, making it all the more difficult to accumulate the surplus forces needed to mount any kind of ground war, etc...and if we actually start pulling out of Iraq and/or Afghanistan the cost of redeploying to the middle east post-withdrawal will be prohibitive. On top of all that our financial position is precarious and likely only to make it all the more difficult to fund an Iran adventure the longer we wait. So, although I'm skeptical that the red button is going to be pushed and another major attack made or let to happen, on the other hand the geopolitical situation looks like now or close to now is the very tail end of the time when further middle-east geopolitical goals could be accomplished, so who knows...

I suspect the likely candidate for a staged catastrophic attack would be 'just' nukes, probably taking out a few 'expendable' cities instead of major ones (ie, not new york). Cities on my shortlist include Phoenix, AZ, Las Vegas, any number of middle-american mid-sized towns (although those are harder to throw a backstory on than the former two), some of the larger cities in Texas, maybe San Diego or its satellites. A nuke attack would once again get us some global sympathy, change the international political dynamic, and alleviate the complex americans have vis-a-vis being the only nation thus far to use nukes aggressively, which would pave the way any number of unconventional weapons to be used in subsequent wars.

A biological terrorist attack is highly unlikely as a staged event because it's too messy; as an authentic event it's more likely, but I doubt the stuff terrorists have access to will be sufficiently virulent to do much actual damage, although the psychological damage could be large.

---

As for the biological stuff, though, the likely explanation is something like this: if you wanted, say, to survive the apocalypse and come out on top, what you'd need to do is first survive the apocalypse, and second topple all challengers. In the event of a major catastrophe -- geophysical changes, global nuclear war, whathave you -- the odds are damn good that there will be an appreciable number of survivors, and the 'elite' survivors will be outnumbered pretty badly by normal survivors...so as long as you're holed up in some underground city waiting for the radioactivity to go down a bit you may as well release a ton of some horrible plague into the outside world to cut down on undesired survivors.

For this purpose biological weapons are damn near perfect, and so I'm guessing they're mostly intended to be used by the elite should 'the game come to an end' to make absolutely sure that it's the elite who survive...keep in mind that most of the elite probably have bunkers and stuff all set up -- after all that was the prudent thing to do throughout the cold war years, and a lot of the elderly elite sorts probably are more paranoid in that way than we are -- so all bets are off as to how much time + money they've put into their little secured retreats.

---

A bit of a ramble I'm afraid, but the short summary:
- manufactured terror probably nukes on expendable cities for which convenient explanations of how the nukes arrived on-site can be made
- authentic terror much less catastrophic but possibly biological, more likely a rash of domestic suicide bombings or some such
- neither very likely because the domestic political situation makes it hard to say if the required political effect will be achieved, but the global geopolitical situation may demand one or the other happens
-- biological terrorism on a massive scale likely reserved for the elites to take out any possible competitors when the "expletive deleted" truly hits the fan, and is unlikely to be employed prior to such time due to the general uncontrollability of biological agents."

# # #

The whole enchilada (original blog and other responses, and Jeff's reply) can be found here: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005...is-calling.html .

# # #

Your own thoughts are invited below.

Look up in the sky, its a ...it's a

It's a little beautiful harmless bird

Ooh, look at that the bird pooped into a lake

Look at the little kiddies swimming on a hot day

Oh my, the birds over there, are they dead?

Look at the little kiddies swimming, gurgle gurgle gurgle

Mama, mama what's that noise?

Waking up the mother looks out the window

Attention ladies and gentleman, the bird flu has mutated, but, we have a vaccine ready to go, that is 100 percent safe

We need everyone in this (blue state democratic town) to please get up, and get on the buses and we will take you to where they are giving the vaccine, and you will be safe

And Jimmy and Jesse and Johnny and Joey and Mama and Papa in the pajamas run outside, oh please mr. mayor, get me on the buses, so I can get my vaccine, please

There you go now you all go to building #2...where the nice man has a nice surprise waiting for you

And meekly into the night, all the citizens of this fine planet have come to camp ohnonotagain where they promptly were exterminated

Just like my ancestors when they walked meekly onto the trains and into the showers in Nazi Germany

Can you say mutated bird flu???

Got scared?

It is now 6 months and a week until elections 2006.
Once the democrats win a branch, the gig is up.

Hold onto your hats, fasten your seatbelts, because whatever shall happen will happen in the next approx. 25 weeks, and it indeed will be a bumpy flight.

You really think it will be that easy G4A?

Everyone here knows you're just a hopeless optimist.

Me, the hopeless optomist

Unfortunately, I think it could be that simple.

(or just let everyone die naturally from the bird flu, which who knows, could be man-made to start)...

The only thing I can't figure out though, is how the "elite" can be sure anything worth living in will be left when they come out of their hole
Who is going to do their biding, and why, after doomsday, would someone just follow orders of a pre-doomsday president?

And how would they know that whatever vaccine they took would work for them?
What if say one of the little grandkid in the bunker with all of them developed the sniffles from coming into the bunker one day too late?

I guess none of us would be here to see it, so it makes no difference...

If we want to be paranoid, why speculate about things that we know, like Al Qaeda, the Bush Administration, or bird flu? Or if we must pin some grave, spectacular crime on the Bushies, why should it be something that so many people are talking about? Why wouldn't they be working on something that hardly anyone, if anyone, is talking about, so few, if anyone, would expect what is coming?

Of course, if some would prefer a different enemy, there is always Iran, Al Qaeda, etc., the possibilities are endless.

With so many possible enemies and horrors that could be hatching, we won't have time to use reason and logic to figure it out. We'll have to rely on gut feelings and rank prejudice.

I know that I wouldn't want to be in Chicago this week

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this in reference to a an exercise to be held in Chicago this week about the response to a radiological bomb going off?

Now if I have that accurately, this would be my question: If the government were planning on really setting off a radiological bomb, why signal what they were about to do by holding an exercise? Wouldn't they prefer to have the element of surprise? Or are the conspirators simply being gracious enough to do things in a way that is convenient to the purposes of those who like to spin these conspiracy theories?

Arneoker, correct me if you can..........but FEMA was running Drills in NYC on 9/11 and the information about that was available on FEMA's website well before 9/11.

Larry "Pull It" Silverstein owns the Sears Tower now too.

I don't know about that, but it could simply be a coincidence. Now you can scoff at that, but with a complicated series of events like those of 9/11, there are bound to be coincidences.

Anyway, my point for Chicago would go for this, why would FEMA signal the government's hand on this if it were a conspiracy? What would the point of having an exercise going on when a disaster actually happened? A recipe for huge confusion IMO. If they were anticipating something, the obvious thing to have done would have been to quietly ensure that enough people and resources were in place to deal with what they knew was going to happen.

There you go !
And maybe, just maybe............................oh , i don't know , maybe they want to rob the Chicago Mercantile exchange this time?? But that's just speculating on my part.

Have you ever considered that the Bushies, as evil as they are or you think that they are, might just have wanted to protect certain people and assets in a place like Lower Manhatten, even if for all they cared a million or two "nobodies" died? Confusion would work against that.

And I think that if they could get a radiological bomb in place, escaping notice of anyone, then they certainly could send in burglars to rob whatever they wanted. And it would be much more difficult to extract things when a radiological bomb was going off.

I guess to fully understand what i'm talking about arneoker you'd have to be inclined enough to look deep enough down the rabbit hole. I found this article that i'm about to post in the 9/11 thread.You might understand more where i'm comming from if you read it. It's not very long I promise.
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/comments/c536.htm

I just read it, and it seems that the main point is that the perspective of many Americans could be quite warped. I certainly think this quite likely, but it hardly invalidates any particular theory explaining events in favor of a an alternative theory. And of course there could be more than one OODA loop, there could be many. Those pushing what are generally called conspiracy theories could be in their own OODA loops, as well as those propagating/believing the conventional theories. Both groups could be.

What we have to do is be as objective as possible in our consideration of the facts. We don't know it all, in fact, especially in terms of complicated events like 9/11, where much of the information has been suppressed, by different and often by enemy parties, we cannot know it all. We have the task of attaching the most reasonable explanation possible, and trying not to let an OODA loop dominate our mental frameworks.

I strongly agree with you here Arneoker. And thats also why the 9/11 thread has seemed to have taken a new direction. Most everything on it now is irrefutable IMO.

That's quite a claim! The fact that we are likely to be deprived of many of the facts (and I should have added that some would be hard to obtain, along with those that would be suppressed) makes it unlikely that any theory of any complexity could be "irrefutable." That doesn't mean that we could not establish a theory that would be the most logical and reasonable explainer of the facts.

It is quite a claim but i stand by it. There is enough evidence of lying and manipulation and MSM complicity to show that there is a coverup going on over 9/11.

But lying, manipulation and MSM complicity can be used in more than one "cover up" scenario. Here is an article that posits a relatively conventional outlook. This guy was senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission, so take his views here for what you think they are worth. The point is, he has his own ideas about lying, manipulation and coverup and what their point was:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6042900129.html

'United 93': The Real Picture

By John Farmer
Sunday, April 30, 2006; Page B02

How accurate is "United 93," Universal Pictures' new movie depicting the drama and heroism aboard the fourth plane hijacked on Sept. 11, 2001? The answer tells us a lot about Hollywood and government in the age of terrorism: The film is closer to the truth than every account the government put out before the 9/11 commission's investigation. Its release marks our passage through the post-9/11 looking glass, with our wildest fairy tales now spun not in Hollywood, but in Washington.

The facts of 9/11 are as simple as they are grim. The military officers in charge of the air defense mission did not receive notice of any of the four hijackings in time to respond before the planes crashed. The passengers and crew aboard United Airlines Flight 93 really were alone. They were all that stood between the hijackers and the Capitol (or possibly the White House). That is the core reality of that morning, and "United 93" gets it right.

The movie does make some concessions to drama. As one of the commission staffers whom the filmmakers consulted (on an unpaid basis) about what happened on 9/11, I believe, for instance, that the movie's climax shows the passengers penetrating farther into the cockpit than the evidence supports.

But compare the harsh truth that the movie accurately portrays with this account from a documentary special that aired on ABC on Sept. 11, 2002:

Army Brig. Gen. W. Montague Winfield: "The decision was made to try to go intercept Flight 93."

Vice President Cheney: "The significance of saying to a pilot that you are authorized to shoot down that plane full of Americans, is, a, you know, it's an order that had never been given before."

. . . Montague: "The vice president briefed into the conference that the president had given us permission to shoot down innocent civilian aircraft that threatened Washington, D.C. Again, in the National Military Command Center, everything stopped for a short second as the impact of those words [sank] in."

. . . Charles Gibson, ABC News: "Colonel Bob Marr is in command at the Northeast Air Defense Sector base in Rome, New York."

Marr: "I got the call and I, the words that I remember as clear as day [were], 'We will take lives in the air to preserve lives on the ground.' "

Gibson: "Marr orders his controllers, 'T ell the pilots to intercept Flight 93.' "

. . . Marr: "And we of course passed that on to the pilots. United Airlines Flight 93 will not be allowed to reach Washington, D.C."

Like the other government versions of 9/11, this account has all the pulse-pounding suspense of a classic movie thriller. It is also, as we discovered at the commission and as "United 93" makes clear, almost completely untrue.

The Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) was not following United 93 on radar; it wasn't even informed that the plane had been hijacked until four minutes after the crash. The authorization to shoot down commercial aircraft was not received until about 30 minutes after the plane went down, and 15 minutes after the military air defenders learned of the crash. The authorization was not passed on to the pilots. Once again, the film depicts the controlling reality more accurately: People were making judgments based on faulty information amid complete chaos.

The question we at the commission asked repeatedly was how the official accounts could have been so wrong. The answer came back: It was the fog of war. The day was too confusing, and government officials hadn't had time to reconstruct events.


But the fog wasn't that thick. The critical times and notifications were recorded in contemporaneous logs virtually all along the chain of command. In testimony before Congress and the commission, officials attributed the pivotal event of the morning -- the scramble of fighters from Langley Air Force Base -- to reports that American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon, and United 93 had been hijacked. But the government's own records revealed that the Langley fighters were scrambled in response to a mistaken report, received at 9:21 a.m., that American Flight 11 -- the first plane hijacked -- was still airborne and heading toward Washington.

That truth, the final commission report notes, emerges "not just from taped conversations at NEADS but also from taped conversations at FAA centers; contemporaneous logs compiled at NEADS, Continental Region headquarters, and NORAD; and other records." In short, anyone who looked would have seen right through the fog.

And it's clear that officials were looking. There was a White House briefing on the facts of 9/11 within a week of the attacks. There were countless interviews, television specials and even an official Air Force history of the day, "Air War Over America."

But the story that officials told made the government's response appear quicker and more coordinated than it really was. By telling the public that the Langley fighters were scrambled in response to reports that American 77 and United 93 had been hijacked, officials were able to avoid admitting that they had scrambled fighters in the wrong direction -- heading east, not west toward Pennsylvania -- against a plane that didn't exist. They were also able to say that they had been following United 93 for about 47 minutes before it crashed and were thus well positioned to shoot down the plane if the passengers and crew hadn't acted.

That, of course, was impossible. At the time when North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) officials told the commission they began tracking United 93 -- 9:16 a.m. -- the plane hadn't been hijacked yet. That didn't occur until 9:28.

Finally, many of the Federal Aviation Administration and Defense Department records that establish the truth of that day were withheld from the commission until they were subpoenaed. In one of its final acts, the commission asked the inspectors general of the Transportation and Defense departments to investigate who was responsible for the mistaken accounts of the morning's events.

That was more than 18 months ago. The inspectors general have now had longer than the life of the 9/11 commission itself to investigate. While we await their results, we can watch the movie and wonder at a government so lost in spin that it took Hollywood to set the record straight.

farmer17@msn.com

John Farmer, a former attorney general of New Jersey, was a senior counsel to the 9/11 commission.

Mild form of avian flu found in New Jersey

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060501/us_nm/...lu_newjersey_dc

An interesting suggestion.

Some CIA analysts on a National Geographic channel program on 9/11 said that it will likely take another terrorist attack for us to improve homeland security to the level really necessary because the government is not focused at all on it...or the needs...

Another New Pearl Harbor ?

Basically it looks like some birds got the flu, did not die, and they destroyed the birds just in case.

So are the birds in on some sort of conspiracy? Suicide terrorist chickens? When the experts tell us that birds migrate are we going to regard that as just a convenient excuse?

BTW, I remember that James Bond movie, "Moonraker," in which Bond foiled a plot to depopulate the world of human beings and repopulate it with a selected group. Makes for great entertainment, but it is hard to imagine this as something that could get very far. (And remember, that plot was hatched by a sole madman, not a government.) Something like nuclear brinkmanship is one thing, but deliberately destroying existing civilization in order to control a remnant is hardly a project rational enough to be considered by the kinds of circles that achieve control of the government of any kind of substantial nation today. And I don't just mean the U.S. government, but the governments of Russia, China, Iran for that matter. I really wouldn't expect this from Osama Bin Laden.

Keep everyone in fear, and the fear will keep the republicans in office

Perhaps, but Bush and Rumsfeld cannot expect people to think that they can "come to the rescue" the same way that they supposedly did in Afghanistan and Iraq. They cannot claim that the way to meet avian flu is by bombing flocks of infected birds.

My Grandparents had a saying they used quite a bit when they were alive.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"
I think it applies to Human Beings too.

Here are just a few Executive Orders that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen.

It should be noted that over time, some of the following Executive Orders have been rescinded or replaced by others. But the true terror to our liberty rests with the ease in which they can be issued and how earlier orders are frequently replaced by those of a more draconian nature:

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that is to interface with the Department of Defense for civil defense planning and funding. An "emergency czar" was appointed. FEMA has only spent about 6 percent of its budget on national emergencies, the bulk of their funding has been used for the construction of secret underground facilities to assure continuity of government in case of a major emergency, foreign or domestic.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and granted the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry. Many of the figures in the Iran-Contra scandal were part of this emergency contingent, including Marine Colonel Oliver North.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis."

The Violent Crime Control Act of 1991 provides additional powers to the President of the United States, allowing the suspension of the Constitution and Constitutional rights of Americans during a "drug crisis". It provides for the construction of detention camps, seizure of property, and military control of populated areas.

When the Constitution of the United States was framed it placed the exclusive legislative authority in the hands of Congress and with the President. Article I, Section 1 of the United States Constitution is concise in its language, "All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." That is no longer true. The Bill of Rights protected Americans against loss of freedoms. That is no longer true. The Constitution provided for a balanced separation of powers. That is no longer applicable.

Perhaps it can be summed up succinctly in the words of conservative activist Howard J. Ruff. "Since the enactment of Executive Order 11490, the only thing standing between us and dictatorship is the good character of the President, and the lack of a crisis severe enough that the public would stand still for it."

http://www.dojgov.net/shadow_government.htm

Jimi, I just checked one of these orders, and I honestly don't think that it authorizes mobilizing government work brigades. The other thing is who promulgated it, John F. Kennedy in 1962.



http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/11000.htm

Executive Order 11000
ASSIGNING EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS FUNCTIONS TO THE SECRETARY OF LABOR
SECTION 1. Scope. The Secretary of Labor (hereinafter referred to as the Secretary) shall prepare national emergency plans and develop preparedness programs covering civilian manpower mobilization, more effective utilization of limited manpower resources including specialized personnel, wage and salary stabilization, worker incentives and protection, manpower resources and requirements, skill development and training, research, labor-management relations, and critical occupations. These plans and programs shall be designed to develop a state of readiness in these areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States.

SEC. 2. Functions. The Secretary shall:

(a) Civilian manpower mobilization. Develop plans and issue guidance designed to utilize to the maximum extent civilian manpower resources, such plans and guidance to be developed with the active participation and assistance of the States and local political subdivisions thereof, and of other organizations and agencies concerned with the mobilization of the people of the United States. Such plans shall include, but not necessarily be limited to:
(1) Manpower management. Recruitment, selection and referral, training, employment stabilization (including appeals procedures), proper utilization, and determination of the skill categories critical to meeting the labor requirements of defense and essential civilian activities.
(2) Priorities. Procedures for translating survival and production urgencies into manpower priorities to be used as guides for allocating available workers.

(3) National guidance. Technical guidance to States for the utilization of the nationwide system of public employment offices and other appropriate agencies for screening, recruiting, and referring workers, and for other appropriate activities to meet mobilization and civil defense needs in each community.

(4) Improving mobilization base. Programs for more effective utilization of limited manpower resources, and in cooperation with other appropriate agencies, programs for recruitment, training, allocation, and utilization of persons possessing specialized competence or aptitude in acquiring such competence.

( Wage and salary stabilization. Develop plans and procedures for wage and salary stabilization and for the national and field organization necessary for the administration of such a program in an emergency, including investigation, compliance and appeals procedures; statistical studies of wages, salaries and prices for policy decisions and to assist operating stabilization agencies to carry out their functions.
© Worker incentives and protection. Develop plans and procedures for wage and salary compensation and death and disability compensation for authorized civil defense workers and, as appropriate, measures for unemployment payments, re-employment rights, and occupational safety, and other protection and incentives for the civilian labor force during an emergency.

(d) Resources. Periodically assess manpower resources in total, by specific skills categories and occupations, and by geographical locations, in order to estimate availability under an emergency situation, analyze resource estimates in relation to estimated requirements in order to identify problem areas, and develop appropriate recommendations and programs. Provide data and assistance before and after attack for national resource evaluation purposes of the Office of Emergency Planning.

(e) Requirements. Develop, in coordination with manpower-usage agencies, plans, procedures and standards for presenting claims for civilian manpower, periodically obtain and analyze or make estimates of requirements for manpower, in total and by specific skill categories and occupations currently and for any emergency, taking into account the estimates of needs for military and civilian purposes; and advise other agencies on the manpower implications of alternative program decisions. Such evaluation shall take into consideration the geographical distribution of requirements under emergency conditions.

(f) Claimancy. Prepare plans to claim materials, equipment, supplies and services needed in support of assigned responsibilities and other essential functions of the Department from appropriate agencies and work with such agencies in developing programs to insure the availability of such resources in an emergency.

(g) Skill development and training. Initiate current action programs to overcome or offset present or anticipated manpower deficiencies including those identified as a result of resources and requirements studies.

(h) Labor-management relations. Develop, after consultation with the Department of Commerce, the Department of Defense, the National Labor Relations Board, the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, the National Mediation Board, and other appropriate agencies and groups including representatives of labor and management, plans and procedures including organization plans for the maintenance of effective labor-management relations during a national emergency.

(i) Damage assessment. Maintain a capability to assess the effects of attack upon manpower resources, departmental installations, and State Employment Security agencies, both at national and field levels, and provide data to the Department of Defense.

(j) Critical occupations. Develop and maintain a list of critical occupations for use, when appropriate, with lists of essential activities as developed by the Department of Commerce. With the Secretary of Defense, the Director of Selective Service System, and such other persons as the President may designate, the Secretary shall develop policies applicable to the deferment of registrants whose employment in occupations or activities is necessary to the maintenance of the national health, safety, or interest.

SEC. 3. Research. Within the framework of Federal research objectives, supervise or conduct research directly concerned with carrying out emergency preparedness responsibilities, designate representatives for necessary ad hoc or task force groups, and provide advice and assistance to other agencies in planning for research in areas involving the Departments interest.
SEC. 4. Functional Guidance. The Secretary, in carrying out the functions assigned in this order, shall be guided by the following:

(a) Interagency cooperation. The Secretary shall assume the initiative in developing over-all civilian manpower mobilization programs and in coordinating the programs of other departments and agencies which have responsibility for any segment of such activities. I shall utilize to the maximum those capabilities of other agencies qualified to perform or assist in the performance of assigned functions by contractual or other agreements. Such programs shall be in consonance with national civil defense plans, programs and operations of the Department of Defense under Executive Order No. 10952.
( Presidential coordination. The Director of the Office of Emergency Planning shall advise and assist the President in determining policy for, and assist him in coordinating the performance of functions under this order with the total national preparedness program.

© Emergency planning. Emergency plans and programs, and emergency organization structure required thereby, shall be developed as an integral part of the continuing activities of the Department of Labor on the basis that it will have the responsibility for carrying out such programs during an emergency. The Secretary shall be prepared to implement all appropriate plans developed under this order. Modifications and temporary organizational changes, based on emergency conditions, will be in accordance with policy determination by the President.

SEC. 5. Emergency Actions. Nothing in this order shall be construed as conferring authority under Title III of the Federal Civil Defense Act of 1950, as amended, or otherwise, to put into effect any emergency plan, procedure, policy, program or course of action prepared or developed pursuant to this order. Such authority is reserved to the President.
SEC. 6. Redelegation. The Secretary is hereby authorized to redelegate within the Department of Labor the functions hereinabove assigned to him.

SEC. 7. Prior Actions. To the extent of any inconsistency between the provisions of any prior order and the provisions of this order, the latter shall control. Emergency Preparedness Order No. 8 (heretofore issued by the Director, Office of Civil and Defense Mobilization) (26 F.R. 660-661), is hereby revoked.

JOHN F. KENNEDY
THE WHITE HOUSE, February 16, 1962.

And from the first sentence of what you posted:

But where does it talk about work brigades? If you say that I am eating beef, and I respond no I'm eating chicken, then even though I am eating I am not eating beef.

I know the Order is written in boring governmentese, but if you read it I think that you will see that it has to do with identifying what kinds of workers we would need in an emergency, and how to obtain them. And apparently through rather mundane means, like when a company opens up a new facility in town and needs to hire new employees. (The trick in an emergency would be putting it all together to meet that emergency in time.) Here is a quote from the beginning of the Order which seems rather less than frightening to me:



Now that sounds like rather normal hiring and employee relations practices are envisioned, as opposed to sending notices to people to report to such and such a place at said date or else. (They mention recruitment, which implies inducing voluntary acceptance of a job offer, not conscription.)

And also, it appears that all of these Orders were signed before either Bush came into office. So it is hard to see them as evidence of a Bush conspiracy to seize total control of the Government. Some of the Orders might be particularlily subject to abuse and/or otherwise dubious. Bush seems to have a prediliction for assuming a worryingly wide range of powers, and probably would be more likely to abuse any kind of EO than most. But let's put these Orders in context, which includes who issued them and when, and read them to determine if the take provided in your post is valid or not.

Wrong Executive Order number my bad. It's this one i'm referring to in the first place.

The core of it all is true,....then the sticklers come in, argue a minute point, and the country is gone by the time the minute point argument is over

All Bush has to do is whatever he pleases, and we are doomed.
Cheney and Bush have planned this since before they stole the election

(He probably signed an executive order saying he won the election in Oc tober 2000)


This game of chicken is not what the public needs today

Graham , who was it that sang the song "Rose Colored Glasses" ??

John Connely??

John Conlee (and he is still around)...(Not the former Gov. of Texas though)
This guy was a mortician before he started singing

Thats it ! Thanks graham!
He does have some good songs ! "Me and Miss Emily" is a good one too.
Not much of a country music fan(except for Merle Haggard and a few others) although I can't help but be exposed to it where I live. LOL!!

So are the birds in on some sort of conspiracy? Suicide terrorist chickens?


“So long as biological warfare research persists, we cannot presume a natural pathology for emerging diseases. We can no longer trust nature to be merely natural.”

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005...c-violence.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deadbiologists

“Dick Cheney says "you know, it's not an accident that we haven't been hit in four years." Of course he's right. And since Cheney warned Americans last year that a vote for Kerry was inviting another 9/11, maybe that's how he means it to be heard this time, too: the veiled threat of a protection artist.”

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005...k-to-black.html

arne-can't you see that the rolling of your eyes on these things puts you square in the technique Bush41 has perfected for 30 years on the "conspiracy theory"...it is part and parcel of what they do

So much so, that in the debates, when they caught W with a mike on his back or wire getting the answers, they didn't even bother disputing it.
They made a conspiracy theory line and laughed and never really denied it.

Instead of making snide answers, just think again that if only one of these things is true, that is treason...and there are 1000s of things out there.
(Hey, the got Clinton for sex, but they did get him.)

What part of not wanting Bush repudiated is it you want? Just wondering?

It's the Rose Colored Glasses Graham!

Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all...

Funny that one of the worst sounding EO's (that's why I checked it in any detail), the one that I really looked at, seems to be such a dud. And that was John F. Kennedy doing as he pleased.

For the core to be true, one of the parts have to jibe.

Graham, you pick one of these EO's, I will look at it and tell you what I think.

If we cannot trust nature to be neutral, then perhaps it is suicide terrorist chickens. I mean that's how it sounds.

Diseases have been arising naturally for literally hundreds of millions of years! But now we cannot presume a natural pathology for emerging diseases. So who was behind the conspiracy about my daughter's recent cold?

I'm sorry, but if I follow the logic here, why don't I get to these kinds of conclusions.

Graham, if someone accuses me of murdering one thousand people, and I only killed one, we'd have to conclude that I am a pretty bad person.

I want to repudiate Bush for what he has done, not what people are imagining that he did. And getting him for what he does in our imaginations just won't work.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

Hardly a compelling argument to follow our gut feelings as opposed to our logical reasoning.

Or if you don't think I'm logical, find the flaws in my argument. Nothing here does.

Then I will read that EO, post it, and note who was its author, and when it was issued. And I will give you my own take.

As someone may have already said; It's not soley about the power granted an individual President or Legislative body, because while we can and should have checks on any power in America, ultimately, to an important degree it's about TRUST.

For me, (and for millions of Americans), I have NO trust in Bush.

The rhetoric in some posts on this thread is bordering on uncivil. jmho.
It is better to persuade one with a good, detailed discussion with some specifics,
rather than to imply that those who may not agree with hypotheticals are not thinking.

Arne, I would think it would be wise to set up contingency plans in the event of a large scale attack on the country. People would need to be mobilized etc.....And I'm certain that that was what was considered during the cold war era of JFK.....I don't think the problem lies so much with the executive orders themselves, but with the particular executive who may make use of them! Therein lies the danger.

Taking over the railways can lead to the same thing they did in Germany

Have a direct link to transport people to their death...

this time instead of the Jewish people, they can all be democrats and non-believers

Bush killed 2500 on 9-11 as collateral damage, whats a few million more saying its bird flu?

this belongs in the bird flu thread, but I just read this...sounds like one of every
four or five americans will surely die with this bunch in the White House

U.S. bird flu plan outlines worst-case scenario
Draft forecasts 40 percent work-force disruption but no border shutdown

The Associated Press
Updated: 7:39 p.m. ET May 1, 2006


WASHINGTON - The government forecasts massive disruptions if bird flu or some other super-strain of influenza arises, with as much as 40 percent of the national work force off the job, but it doesn't foresee closing U.S. borders to fight the spread, according to a draft of the national response plan obtained Monday by The Associated Press.

An outbreak could lead the government to limit international flights, quarantine exposed travelers and otherwise restrict movement in and around the country.

But a complete shutdown of the border would not be likely, nor would it do more than slow the pandemic's spread by a few weeks, according to the plan that is being finalized by Bush administration officials for release Wednesday at the White House.

"While we will consider all options to limit the spread of a pandemic virus, we recognize complete border closure would be difficult to enforce, present foreign affairs complications and have significant negative social and economic consequences," the 228-page draft report says.

Pandemics can strike when the easy-to-mutate influenza virus shifts to a strain that people have never experienced, something that has happened three times in the past century. The government is preparing for a worst-case scenario of up to 2 million deaths in the United States.

It's impossible to predict when the next pandemic will strike, or how great its toll might be. But concern is rising that the Asian bird flu, called the H5N1 strain, might lead to one if it eventually starts spreading easily from person to person.

So far, H5N1 has struck more than 200 people since 2003, killing about half of them. Virtually all the victims caught it from close contact with infected poultry or droppings.

The plan says preparedness for a pandemic could take years, and so significant steps must be taken immediately across all levels of government and the private sector to protect national security, the economy and the basic functioning of society.

The report aims to energize the private sector, noting that 85 percent of the systems that are vital to society, such as food production, medicine and financial services, are privately run.

"While a pandemic will not damage power lines, banks or computer networks, it has the potential ultimately to threaten all critical infrastructure by its impact on an organization's human resources by removing essential personnel from the workplace for weeks or months," the report says.

Telecommuting urged
Not only would sick workers stay home, but so would anyone who caring for ill family members, under quarantine because of possible exposure to the flu or taking care of children when schools shut down. The same could go for anyone who simply feels safer at home.

Included in the report's advice for employers: Have workers remain at least three feet apart or otherwise limit face-to-face contact to limit the flu's spread, including by working from home or substituting teleconferences for office meetings.

The report envisions possible breakdowns in public order and says governors might deploy National Guard troops or request federal troops to maintain order.

Last fall, President Bush announced a $7.1 billion strategy to fight the next flu pandemic, focusing largely on public health preparations — including plans to stockpile enough bird flu vaccine for 20 million people and anti-flu drugs for 81 million. So far, the stockpile contains enough vaccine for 4 million people and medication for 5 million.

This new report is Step 2, outlining how every branch of government would have to work together with federal health officials to try to contain a pandemic and minimize its damage to the economy and society. By early next month, government agencies are to release the specific steps they plan.

The report attempts to settle any turf battle within the administration, saying the Department of Health and Human Services would lead the government's interagency response effort and the Department of Homeland Security would have a secondary role to assist with the health response and non-medical support.

If a pandemic begins abroad, federal health officials are guaranteed to take certain initial steps, such as screening travelers arriving from affected areas and putting the possibly infected into quarantine. Ship and plane captains already are required to report certain on-board illnesses upon arrival, but crews would be trained to take such steps as putting a surgical mask on a coughing traveler.

Delaying the inevitable
With no border restrictions, pandemic influenza would arrive in the United States within two months of an outbreak abroad, the document estimates. But models of influenza's spread suggest that sealing the U.S. border would not only be impractical — 1.1 million people cross the nation's 317 official ports of entry daily — but it would only delay the inevitable by a few weeks, it says.

Domestically, Americans take an average of 1.1 billion trips a day — four for every person.

The new document promises that the Bush administration will create a "toolkit" of options to help mayors, governors and transportation officials decide what, if any, restrictions on that travel would be appropriate at different stages of a pandemic. It calls mandatory quarantine a last resort, and urges planners to consider, for example, that closing a community would sever it from the delivery of groceries and other essential goods.

The military could be activated to enforce travel restrictions and deliver vaccines and medicines, the report says.

Colleges should consider whether dormitories could be used to house or quarantine the sick, and establish mandatory sick-leave policies for anyone exposed to the flu.

Repeatedly, the report stresses that government must provide accurate and timely information to citizens, who could either help or hinder flu's spread through their own actions.

"The collective response of 300 million Americans will significantly influence the shape of the pandemic and its medical, social and economic outcomes," the report says. "Institutions in danger of becoming overwhelmed will rely on the voluntarism and sense of civic and humanitarian duty of ordinary Americans."

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

© 2006 MSNBC.com

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12584149

What the hell does it matter who the Author is ??????????????????
What's the Difference between Democrats and Republicans ??

Nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I promise you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bought and Sold !

All of them are Whores !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arneoker, your trivialization of the issues of bio-warfare belie your image as a serious, logical and thoughtful commentator. Your remarks about suicidal terrorist chickens and conspiracies behind cold viruses neatly ignore the following:

1) the historical elements surrounding Nixon’s abandonment of biowarfare;

2) the hidden biowarfare development work of the Russians;

3) the hidden deaths at Sverdlovsk stemming from an anthrax leak;

4) the fact that Ken Alibek, the #2 man in Russian bio-warfare, defected to the US, was fully de-briefed by the CIA, PBS, 60 Minutes and others, and has been hard at work here in the US for over a decade;

5) the tremendous ramping-up since approximately 1995 in preparedness drills, exercises and training for bio-terrorism;

6) Judith Miller’s extensive write-ups for the NY Times and in books about bio-warfare before and after 9/11 (yes, that Judith Miller);

7) any discussion of the Gulf War syndrome debates and controversies;

8) any discussion of SARS, West NileVirus, AIDS, smallpox, Ebola, Marburg fever, etc.;

9) the fact that the Bush administration has ramped up research in bio-warfare ;

[“In the wake of 9/11, the U.S. government is funding a massive new biodefense research effort, redirecting up to $10 billion toward projects related to biological weapons such as anthrax. The Pentagon's budget for chemical and biological defense has doubled; high-security nuclear-weapons labs have begun conducting genetic research on dangerous pathogens; universities are receiving government funding to build high-tech labs equipped to handle deadly infectious organisms; and Fort Detrick, Maryland, once the home of America's secret bioweapons program, is about to break ground on two new high-tech biodefense centers.”]

(see http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2004/03/02_400.html );

10) the fact that the use of biowarfare for political purposes is discussed in PNAC documents with Woolsey, Zakheim, and Jeb Bush as signatories;

11) any recognition of the significant financial ties between key Bush Administration officials and major pharmaceutical companies;

12) the existence of Admiral Poindexter’s stock market terror futures game;

13) the fact that Cheney is in charge of the administration's counter-terrorism efforts, and was "in the catbird seat" for 9/11;

14) the coincidences of “exercises” to prepare for events that amazingly occur in the middle of those exercises, both on 9/11 and in connection with the London subway bombings;

15) the fact that the White House staff were given ciprofloxacin on 9/11, and the Bush administration’s evasiveness in discussing this;

16) the anthrax scares and related events in the weeks after 9/11

[“Our government cannot locate the anthrax mailer, despite many knowledgeable bioweapons experts insisting the culprit can only be one of 10 to 12 people from within the U.S. biowarfare community. Our government is now planning to vaccinate at least half a million people to protect them from something that has not occurred, and whose existence cannot be confirmed. They are drawing up quarantine plans to deal with this same unconfirmed threat. And they plan to vaccinate those people quarantined from the unconfirmed threat.”

See http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/...bushbiobil.html ];


17) the lies and saber-rattling by the White House about Iraq’s biowarfare capabilities;

18) the mysterious deaths of over a dozen micro-biologists;

19) the fact that Bush’s 2006 budget includes cuts in public health programs that would provide a defense against bioterrorism;

20) the existence of the Model Health Emergency Preparedness Program;

[“Americans are now in a situation where: a) The FDA is allowing drugs to be marketed as treatments for biological, chemical or radiological attacks without testing them for efficacy in humans; Under MEHPA, states will arrest, charge and jail people for refusing to take a specific course of treatment for a biological, chemical or radiological attack; and c) A Court of Appeals has ruled that it is perfectly legal for an individual to be forcibly drugged while in government custody.”

(see http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/...bushbiobil.html )


21) that the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act grants blanket immunity to pharmaceutical companies;

22) the fact that the CDC is engaged in laboratory research that will mutate the H5N1 avian influenza virus into transmissible or pandemic state;

23) the theory advanced by some that “the next 9/11” will be a Sverdlovsk-like “staged” leak of a biological agent;

24) the fact that a vice president and board member of Booz Allen Hamilton, which has created and facilitated wargames for the Office of the Secretary of Defense and other clients, including “exercises” focused on avian influenza, will speak at a “Bird Flu Summit” in DC in late June; this is the company that just recently predicted, on the basis of such simulation gaming, that a bird flu outbreak will overwhelm and shut down the Internet, and that same conference will also include speakers from the Department of Defense, Northrup Grumman (experts in battle management), and the MITRE Corporation (experts in Command, Communications, Control and Intelligence and the company that worked with PTECH and the FAA); or that two former Booz Allen Hamilton employees were R. James Woolsey and Dov Zakheim;

25) the national pandemic flu plan includes the use of National Guard troops to face possible insurrection;

26) that the U.S. Northern Command recently hosted representatives from more than 40 international, federal and state agencies for an exercise designed to provoke discussion and determine what governmental actions, including military support, would be necessary in the event of an influenza pandemic in the United States. "NORTHCOM will not be running the show in the event of a pandemic," said Dave Wilkins, the NORTHCOM exercise facilitator. "We will be taking guidance and requests from other agencies, such as the Department of Homeland Security, via the secretary of defense."
( http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2006/20060201_4070.html )

27) that investment bankers have warned that a flu pandemic could set off a global stock market crash;

28) that computer simulations have deduced that the bird flu pandemic will arrive in the US in California, but that Jeb Bush has predicted it will be Florida;

29) that Canadian military intelligence published a report last year entitled Recent Human Outbreaks of Avian Influenza and Potential Biological Warfare Implications;

30) that Secretary of Health and Human Services Michael Leavitt recommended last month that Americans start storing canned tuna in order to prepare for an outbreak of pandemic flu;

31) significant criticism of the Bush bio-terror focus

( http://www.ippnw.org/MGS/V7N2Sidel.pdf ) and

( http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/9/goozner-m.html ) and

( http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print....s02/0319-05.htm ) ;


32) this article ( http://antiwar.com/hirsch/?articleid=8788 ), previously posted here at CGCS by SnuffySmith, which discusses Bush’s possible charge of the weaponization of avian influenza by Iran as a cause for war;

33) that Russia has accused the US of using the bird flu as a weapon;

34) the use of smallpox as a weapon of war in North America during the 18th century; or

35) the extensive use of PsyOps, propaganda and state-sponsored journalism inside the US and targeted at the American people.


Arne, I don’t think there’s a conspiracy behind your child’s cold.

But the rest of this, and the Bush administration's obvious penchant for telling the truth, have me a little concerned. I wonder why we are being made to live in fear, and I no longer trust the government or the MSM. They tell me that, when I stock up on duct tape and plastic sheeting, I should also pick up several cartons of flaked albacore.

You, and TROU, are right. But I don't think that the key issue is these Executive Orders at all, if the one that I looked at is any indication about what the rest of them are like. And I will look at the one Graham cited.

The thing is, the danger of dictatorship, which seems to be behind the point of drawing such alarming attention to these EO's, has been around for decades, if not for well over a hundred years, if we consider what tools a so-inclined President could use. Those tools are a standing military and national law enforcement agencies, bodies which we think of as protecting us, but which have been used in other places to intimidate the population and establish dictatorships. Think of it. Unless we scrap most of the military and abolish the FBI, this potential exists. Do we trust that we can keep it under control, as one might trust that his or her Rotweiller will remain protector and not turn on his master? Most of us do. But we have to trust in things other than the absence of the right tools available to potential dictators.

If dictatorship is ever established in this country, I think that most likely it will be established the old fashioned way, using the national security forces against the population. The legalisms will be a side issue, and a very trivial one at that.