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progressivephoenix
Most of these type of deals are under the table. Nations always take one position in public and another in private. Pro-Israel lobbies in the US were not quiet though.

http://www.irc-online.org/rightweb/profile/1432



QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 23 2006, 01:15 PM)
I don't know either. But, if Israel was in favor of us invading Iraq they kept a low profile. If they weren't they did the same it seems. Whichever way it was they would have been blamed for supporting a dictator if they opposed the invasion, and being in cahoots with Bush if they supported it.
*
Beamer
QUOTE
Israel’s Terrorism
by Gabriel Ash
www.dissidentvoice.org
July 18, 2006

The Middle East is boiling over yet again. Israel is resorting to the one strategy it has perfected since the day it was created, murdering civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure.

The Israeli defense doctrine, old as Israel itself, considers bombing of civilian targets a means for pressuring “militants” and uncooperative governments. So Israel bombs bridges and villages in South Lebanon, power plants in Gaza, orchards, fields, schools, hospitals, residential neighborhoods, beach barbecue parties, etc. Everything is a legitimate target. Israeli ministers announce publicly that their chief strategy is to cause civilian suffering. Every day sees its Guernica, and the U.N., which proudly displays a reproduction of the painting, is mum in the face of a hundred Guernicas. 

To be clear, Israel’s actions fit the very definition of terrorism. Doubly so now, since the bombing campaign is a response to attacks on Israeli soldiers, not civilians. The ever more morally bankrupt “international community” sees nothing, hears nothing, and says nothing. Don’t take my word for it. An aide of the Israeli PM said recently: “We are acting there [in Gaza] in an unprecedented manner; we’re firing hundreds of artillery shells, attacking from the air, sea and land and the world remains silent.”

Having been so encouraged by the world’s indifference to the bombing of Gaza, Israel is giving Lebanon the same murderous treatment. Putin and Chirac have managed to assemble some moderate testiness. The rest of the world called for “restraint.” When the mission statement is to exact revenge and kill civilians, what’s restraint?

According to the EU, Hamas has to renounce violence to become a “responsible government.” And Hizbullah has to release the captured soldiers. The Israeli government, on the other hand, although responsible for an unending campaign of terrorism, need not renounce violence, nor release any of its political prisoners. The brotherhood of money and white skin is proving again to be thicker than blood.

Hizbullah’s intervention proved again it is the only power that wouldn’t stay silent in the face of Israeli barbarism. Since Israel recognizes neither international laws nor international borders, there was nothing morally wrong in Hizbullah’s fighters crossing the border into Israel to raid a military patrol. Israel should not enjoy the defense of principles it doesn’t respect. With its latest raid, Hizbullah consolidated its position as the leading popular voice in the Middle East, displaying tactical brilliance, solidarity, and a refusal to be bribed or cowered that is putting the rest of the world -- the Arab puppet governments as well as Europe’s hypocrites -- to shame. To boot, Hizbullah is also putting to shame other Muslim radicals, most notably the Iraqi thugs and Al-Qaeda, both by successfully raiding legitimate military targets and by feeding a broad popular consensus that cuts across the Sunni-Shia divide.

However, courage and legitimacy aside, it is anybody’s guess whether the leadership of Hizbullah foresaw that Israel would go postal and open a full-blown air war against Lebanon, shooting civilians in cars like ducks. If they did not, they were certainly shortsighted, and if they did, they were reckless.

Nevertheless, it is far from clear who wins when the dust settles. While guaranteed to suffer severe damage, Hizbullah still has the odds on its side. When Israel invaded Lebanon for the umpteenth time, government officials announced that Israel’s goal was nothing less than the disarming of Hizbullah and the setting of “new rules of the game.” That pronouncement sounds awfully reminiscent of Sharon’s stated goal for invading Lebanon in 1982, to create “a new order in Lebanon.” What are the chances that Olmert will have better success than Sharon? Slim. Hizbullah will nor disarm willfully. Who will disarm it? There are three candidates, and none of them looks too promising.

Israel: Israel can re-occupy Lebanon. That would certainly be a setback to Hizbullah, which would lose men, installations, and freedom of operation. But can Israel destroy Hizbullah? Note that Israel is unable to destroy Hamas, a much weaker organization, on a much smaller territory. No matter how much violence it used, Israel couldn’t prevent Hamas from launching rockets and gaining popularity. Will Israel be more successful in Lebanon?

The “International Community”: One could see France and the U.S. occupying Lebanon, probably under the guise of some invitation from the Christian minority, or a call for U.N. “peacekeeping” a la Haiti. Assuming Western powers are stupid (or cornered) enough to take the bait, can they achieve in Lebanon what Israel, with a lot more commitment, couldn’t? A Western occupation of Lebanon is likely to turn the whole Middle East into one long crusaders vs. Muslims crescent. Does the West have the stomach for that? Does it have a reasonable chance of winning?

The “Cedar Revolution”: The most promising alternative, for the West, is to empower some local stooges that would rule the new Lebanon colony for Western and Israeli interests. That is the West’s favorite strategy, currently tried in many places around the globe. But Shiites are a poor, radical, bitter and armed majority in Lebanon. It would take more than a few Starbucks customers to subdue them. The anti-Hizbullah coalition is small and weak. Its unity is doubtful and its willingness to fight far from evident. Hizbullah, on the other hand, will have not only well-disciplined cadres and massive popular support, but also the support of Syria and Iran.

Israel could seek to cause as much damage as possible to Hizbullah’s infrastructure with aerial assaults, then call it victory. But the blow to Hizbullah would not be enough to put an end to its operations, probably leaving Olmert in the unpleasant position of having to declare impotence. Hence the scenario of a full-blown war is extremely plausible. Such a war will eventually involve an Israeli invasion seeking to severely weakens Hizbullah, followed by an international peacekeeping force that replaces Israel and nurtures a government of Lebanese collaborators. In the rosiest scenario that government eventually gains the ability to repress the majority of the Lebanese population with only Western financial support. At that point the “peacekeepers” withdraw and Lebanon joins the dubious fraternity of Egypt and Jordan, safe Western puppet regimes.

A not-so-slight complication of this classic colonial scenario is the fact that Hizbullah is not an isolated resistance movement; rather it enjoys the international support of Iran and Syria, as well as strong ties with the Iraqi Shia militias, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood. Furthermore, in the context of a growing resource conflict between the superpowers, Iran could eventually receive covert support from Russia and/or China, in ways reminiscent of the support the Afghani Mujahaddin (and Bin Laden) received from the U.S. Thus, a successful repression of Hizbullah is likely to require at some point dealing a severe blow to Syria and Iran, and such a blow could require a proxy war between the U.S., Russia and China.

To put it differently, the Israel-Hizbullah war can remain contained, or it can end in a decisive manner. But it cannot both remain contained and end in a decisive manner.

(In light of this, one must read skeptically Western editorials calling on Israel to exercise caution, avoid overreaching and limit itself to targeting Hizbullah only are a miserable attempt to defend Israel while keeping up the pretense of opposing the targeting of civilians. The fact is the “collateral damage” is not a result of Israel’s failure to “minimize the damage to civilian bystanders.” Since Israel can only achieve its aims by widening the scope of the war and forcing other parties to get involved, “damage to civilians” is not a by-product but the core of Israel’s strategy of escalation. The longer other parties fail to get involved, the more civilians will die. The New York Times is right that such indiscriminate murder strengthens Hamas and Hizbullah, but the problem is not one that Israel can rectify by changing its tactics. The problem is Israel itself and its true goals.)

The long war scenario, which is the only scenario that has a slightest chance of achieving Israel’s goal of disarming Hizbullah, is similar to what the U.S. strategy in Iraq, where success is getting ever more elusive. It is also similar to the original Sharon plan for Lebanon in 1982, which failed. Why would this scenario be more successful in today’s Lebanon? Odds are that it won’t. But there are good reasons to believe that it will be tried. Three reasons, to be precise:

First, the post-colonial Western imagination is limited. This scenario is the well-understood way of dealing with subject populations in troubled corners of the world. It worked many times in the past, and even if its effectiveness is on a downward curve, there isn’t any alternative short of giving up power and compromising.

Second, even if final success is elusive, war buys time, for Israel as well as for the U.S., for the politicians as well as for the interests they represents. For the latter, losing in a decade is still better than compromising today. Raymond Aaron called politics “the art of making things last.” That holds true even when what is being made to last is misery.

Third, in international politics it is often true that “it's not the destination that counts, it’s the journey.” For many Israeli and American interests, war has value, in some cases hard cash value, regardless of final outcome.

One aspect of the intrinsic value of war is that both the leaders and the public in Israel truly believe that all Arabs will surrender if enough force is applied. It never worked. But that racism is too deep to be inconvenienced by facts. The second Lebanon war won’t be the first war fought for the sake of maintaining illusions.

Israeli PM Olmert and DM Peretz are both lacking in the most important social capital in Israel, military rank. They therefore need to prove -- to the public was well as to themselves -- that their manhood is the longest in the Middle East; (in Israel this is called “deterrence.”) Within the Macho culture Israeli leaders have cultivated for decades, justice and compromise are for sissies. Real men murder civilians. The government has therefore little choice but to escalate the military conflict or risk losing its political credibility.

The Israeli Military, which pushed for the recent escalation in both Gaza and Lebanon, taking advantage of the weakness of the political echelon, itches for war. At stake is repairing the psychological damage than “asymmetric warfare” inflicts on the Israeli military (Ilan Pappe, “What Does Israel Want”) But beyond psychology, there are also crucial economic interests. Israel was in the middle of a debate over military expenditures, which the latest budget would cut significantly. The new war will certainly serve as the needed excuse for canceling or otherwise evading the cuts.

Beyond the tangible budget numbers, there is the central position of the army, and the economic interests behind it, within Israeli economy and politics. The stalemate in Gaza and the Hamas’s electoral victory are revealing the hollow core of Israel’s military dominance, Israel’s inability to reduce Palestinians to a hopeless and obedient subject population. Escalation masks this fatal weakness because Israel is undoubtedly the more powerful party. As long as fighting goes on, Israel has the upper hand, its army looks powerful, and above all, useful. The moment the fighting ends, the limits of military power reassert themselves. Continuing military escalation therefore protects the military establishment and Israel’s war economy from internal challenges.

Finally, Israel has no hope of a decisive outcome without the U.S. fully backing it against Iran. And while there are many sane voices calling for the U.S. to dissociate itself from Israel and seek a diplomatic compromise with Iran, there are also powerful U.S. interests itching for a global war. The neo-conservative argument is that a global war is necessary for the maintenance of U.S. dominance, not only in the face of rising local challenges such as Iran, but also to curb the rise of China as a global force. (as an aside, I tend to agree that war is necessary to U.S. global dominance. I doubt however that it is also sufficient.) And behind the neo-cons’ arguments loom the interests of the U.S. military-industrial-complex. Incidentally, the U.S. economy seems to be moving towards a potentially dangerous recession. While this is still early, there should be no doubt that as the U.S. economy deteriorates, the economic appeal of military conflict will increase.

Given his low poll numbers and public dissatisfaction with Iraq, Bush is probably unable to initiate a war against Iran. The generals are opposed and the GOP is likely to be hammered in the mid-term elections. But if the war is initiated by Israel and the U.S. is perceived to be “dragged” into it unwillingly, Bush and the GOP would benefit again from the popular glow of patriotism that war baths leaders in; Especially given that Democrats will not criticize a war fought “to protect Israel,” whose crony capitalists, like Haim Saban, pay for their election campaigns. An Israeli escalation in Lebanon can therefore serve as the necessary trigger for a global conflict that U.S. neo-cons desire.

A larger war will thus serve the short-term interests of the leadership in both Israel and the U.S. It may delay their inevitable decline, but chances are it won’t restore their power. Both have reached the double climax of military power and loathsomeness, a point at which they can win any war, but can impose no peace. Since the Islamist leaders of Hamas and Hizbullah tend to take the long view of history, whereas the leaders of the U.S. and Israel are driven mostly by concern for the near future of corporate balance sheets, an escalating conflict might just give both sides the kind of victory they most crave.

One wished that saner voices prevailed; the slide towards war can be stopped by determined international pressure on Israel to accept a ceasefire. That would save many lives, but it will also be a blow to Israeli and U.S. dominance. Therefore, unfortunately, help is definitely not on its way. The people of Lebanon are now being taught a lesson many of them had wanted to forget, that their only defense against their psychopathic southern neighbor is bigger and badder weapons. Rest assured that the lesson will be learned, and that bigger and badder weapons will be used, perhaps against Israel, perhaps half a globe away. Nothing breeds murderers better than silence in the face of murder. Israel’s unquenchable bloodlust was forged in the furnaces of the holocaust and galvanized by the silence of the world. Bin Laden said he was inspired to blow the Twin Towers by the sight of Beirut burning in 1982, “and the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.” Who knows whom and to what the latest mayhem will inspire. There is no real justice in this ever-unfolding sickness, but for those who are content with the poetic kind of justice, there is a plenty.

*  *  *  *

Perhaps a liberal rephrasing of Robert Frost can sum up the stakes:

Some say world domination ends in fire, Some say in ice. From knowing Olmert’s and Bush’s desire, I hold with those who favor fire. But if our leaders go for ice, I think they are enough despised, so that for their destruction ice, is also great, and would suffice.

Gabriel Ash is an activist and writer who writes because the pen is sometimes mightier than the sword and sometimes not. He welcomes comments at: g.a.evildoer@gmail.com.


http://dissidentvoice.org/July06/Ash18.htm
Snuffysmith
Radical Shiites in Baghdad Rally for Hezbollah:

Hundreds of radical Shiite Muslims, some wielding assault rifles and rocket launchers, marched Friday in support of the Hezbollah movement and its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, in the capital's Sadr City district, home to loyalists of Shiite fundamentalist cleric Muqtada Sadr.
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/faireno...latimes278.html
Snuffysmith
Harper joins Canada to Israeli-U.S. axis:

PM opts for hostility rather than justice for Palestinians, says Haroon Siddiqui
http://tinyurl.com/rr27m


Senior officials believe U.S. will give Israel a week to complete military offensive in Lebanon :

On the eve of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's visit to Jerusalem, senior officials believe Israel has an American nod to continue operations against Hezbollah Lebanon at least until next Sunday.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741445.html


Israel's military stunned by the failure of its air war :

Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz and his advisers have been stunned by the failure of Israel's air war against Hizbullah, which has shrugged massive air bombings on its headquarters in Beirut to maintain the rocket war against the Jewish state.
http://tinyurl.com/hgbsd


'Syria will not tolerate Israeli advances':

"If Israel invades Lebanon and nears us, Syria will not sit quietly. It will join the conflict," Bilal vowed.
http://tinyurl.com/p88sg


Minister: Syria to enter conflict if Lebanon invaded:

A Syrian minister warned Israel in an interview published Sunday that a major ground incursion into Lebanon would draw his country into the Middle East conflict.
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=45222


Britain criticises Israeli tactics : -

Britain has dramatically broken ranks with George Bush over the Lebanon crisis, publicly criticising Israel's military tactics and urging the Americans to 'understand' the price being paid by ordinary Lebanese civilians.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14153.htm
jeffmoskin
I think Hezbollah started this thing not because Iran or Syria told them to do it but because Hezb knew that Israel would hit back hard. Such tactics would provide TV images that would shame Israel in the eyes of the world. At the same time, the pluck of Hezb standing up to the world's 2nd most powerful military force makes Iran and Syria look good, meaning more support will come Hezb's way.
Abu Beacon
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Jul 23 2006, 06:39 PM)
I think Hezbollah started this thing not because Iran or Syria told them to do it but because Hezb knew that Israel would hit back hard. Such tactics would provide TV images that would shame Israel in the eyes of the world. At the same time, the pluck of Hezb standing up to the world's 2nd most powerful military force makes Iran and Syria look good, meaning more support will come Hezb's way.
*


Interesting theory, jeffmo.

There are so many imponderables at the moment that it's a " take your pick " situation. I'm sure you know that the one thing that's really bothering me is the awful damage being done to Lebanon. Somehow, Hezbullah's actions are making Lebanon pay heavily.

In a discussion I had this morning with what I call a headline reader, I was asked " What does Bush have to do with all of this?

My answer was " Everything "

If we had been fortunate to have had a statesman as president 5 or 6 years ago instead of a political puppet, we might have a peaceful MidEast now instead of millions and millions of Arabs hating our guts.

But undoubtedly that was part of the plan.

A.B.
Beamer
This is an interesting article about the Bush strategy for the Middle East:

Hands-Off
Bush's Risky Mideast Strategy:
Seek Change, Not Quick Peace

Rice Will Solicit Backing
To Disarm Hezbollah;
Fears of a Broader War
New Order or Chaos Ahead?
By NEIL KING JR. in Washington, KARBY LEGGETT in Jerusalem and JAY SOLOMON in Beirut
July 19, 2006; Page A1

Ten years ago, when Hezbollah and Israeli forces engaged in a multiweek bloodbath, President Clinton sent Secretary of State Warren Christopher to the region for six days of intensive shuttle diplomacy between Damascus and Jerusalem. In the end, he won a cease-fire deal that ended the fighting, at least temporarily.

Today, the Bush administration has a starkly different approach. Emphasizing fundamental change over short-term peace and stability, President Bush and his top diplomat, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, have no intention of launching a similar round of diplomacy to end the current fighting. Visiting Damascus is out of the question. And a cease-fire isn't their most pressing aim, they say.

1
Instead, when Ms. Rice ventures to the region as early as this weekend, administration officials say that her mission will be to build support for the effective crippling of Hezbollah, which has two ministers in the country's government and popular backing across southern Lebanon. They also hope the crisis will end up limiting the influence of Hezbollah's chief sponsors, Syria and Iran.

"Sometimes it requires tragic situations to help bring clarity in the international community," President Bush said Tuesday. "I want the world to address the root causes of the problem, and the root cause is Hezbollah." He also called for allies to "continue to work to isolate Iran."

Ms. Rice, in her own remarks to reporters, said the administration has "to make certain that anything that we do is going to be of lasting value. The Middle East has been through too many spasms of violence, and we have to deal with underlying conditions so that we can create sustainable conditions for political progress there."


The Bush administration's attempts to use the current crisis to force long-lasting change carries high risks. A prolonged Israeli bombardment of Lebanon could deepen support in the Arab world for Hezbollah and Iran, while further weakening the moderate and anti-Syrian Lebanese prime minister, Fouad Siniora. Mr. Bush Tuesday said it was "essential" that the Lebanese government survive the current assault.

There is also the possibility that the hostilities will escalate if Hezbollah strikes Tel Aviv, potentially prompting Israel to strike back directly at Syria. Meanwhile, the U.S. push for a no-compromise hard-line puts its Arab allies, such as Egypt and Jordan, in a tough spot: It could force them to either disavow the American line, or to openly take Israel's side against Syria and Iran, a stance that could trigger unrest in their own countries.

Many top officials in Europe and Arab capitals are calling for a far speedier end to the current fighting than Washington supports. Some are calling for the introduction of international peacekeeping forces into Southern Lebanon.

With attacks by Israel and Hezbollah intensifying daily, the current crisis is emerging as a critical test of President Bush's belief that tumultuous change in the Mideast is preferable to what he once dismissed as the region's "false stability of dictatorship and stagnation." President Bush did more than anyone to disrupt that status quo by invading Iraq in 2003, and both U.S. and Arab officials now see the current conflict in Lebanon as part of a broader reshaping of the Middle East. The question is whether the result is deeper chaos or a more enduring peace.


The fighting is almost certain to continue for days, if not weeks, to come. Tuesday, Israel continued pounding Lebanon, killing 31 people in all. In one raid, Israeli warplanes struck a Lebanese army barracks, killing 11 soldiers, including four officers, and wounding 30 others. The Israeli air force also destroyed a truck traveling from Damascus and carrying medical supplies donated by the United Arab Emirates. That attack was part of a new campaign by Israel to prevent Hezbollah from smuggling in new rockets from Syria to replenish its stocks.

Possible Ground Invasion

Meanwhile, a top Israeli general suggested Tuesday that the bombing campaign in Lebanon could run for weeks. In a potential major escalation, he also said that a large-scale ground invasion in Lebanon was still a possibility. "We aren't ruling it out," Maj. Gen. Moshe Kaplinski told Israel Radio.

Hezbollah continued its own offensive, shooting 85 additional rockets across northern Israel. One salvo knocked down a three-story house, killing one person and wounding several others. Hezbollah also targeted Haifa, Israel's third-largest city, for the third day in a row. One rocket fell near Haifa's port and train depot, though no casualties were reported. The Haifa port, one of Israel's two largest, remained closed. After seven days, the death toll stood at 226 Lebanese and 25 Israelis.


The U.S. began to evacuate small numbers of Americans from Beirut, with plans for much larger pullouts Wednesday, as some Democrats in Congress blasted the administration for its sluggish rescue efforts.

The current Bush drive to refashion the Middle East stretches back, in some ways, to the 2000 presidential campaign. At the time, then-Texas governor Bush openly criticized the Clinton administration's intense involvement in negotiations between the Israelis and Arabs. Mr. Bush faulted the administration for treating the two sides as essentially equivalent parties in a dispute, rather than taking sides. The words translated into policy almost immediately after the 2001 terrorist attacks. Bush officials said they had no desire to repeat decades of diplomacy aimed at simply stopping violence without addressing underlying problems.

In quick succession, President Bush cut off ties to the now-deceased Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat and criticized past administrations for seeking to preserve the status quo in the region by catering to leaders like the late Syrian leader Hafez Assad. In 2003, Mr. Bush described the war to topple Iraq's Saddam Hussein as not just an attempt to remove a potential threat to the U.S., but as a crucial step toward resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and bringing democracy to the entire Middle East.

Administration critics say the Bush approach to the region has done more harm than good. They say the current crisis is symptomatic of a policy of "benign neglect" in the Middle East. As evidence, they cite the hands-off U.S. approach to the Israeli-Palestinian problem and the general Bush view that the region must slay its own demons on the road to democracy. The U.S. now refuses to talk to Syria's leaders, and pulled the U.S. ambassador from Damascus last year after the assassination in Beirut of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. The U.S. hasn't had high-level contacts with Iran for decades. It talks to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas but not to the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority.

Critics charge that this stance has left the administration so isolated from the region that it has little leverage over the actors best placed to defuse the crisis, namely Iran and Syria, as well as the leaders of Hezbollah and Hamas.

Broad Room

By robustly defending Israel's right to go after Hezbollah, Washington has given Israel broad room to conduct the war at a pace it decides. "The support we are getting from Washington is unprecedented," said an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Administration officials say their strategy is to see Hezbollah militarily weakened through the current wave of clashes, and then to have Ms. Rice use her Middle East trip to win support in the region for a real move to implement the 2004 United Nations resolution, 1559, calling for the disarmament of Hezbollah and the deployment of the Lebanese army into Southern Lebanon. "She will go only to push for an enduring solution," one official said of Ms. Rice.

But even with added room to maneuver, it's highly unlikely that Israel will be able to achieve its stated military goal of wiping out both Hezbollah and Hamas. In both Lebanon and Gaza, these are highly popular, deeply entrenched movements that run enormous social-service networks. In hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinian towns, the two groups have taken control of the local governments via popular elections. In the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas now runs the Palestinian Authority after winning an outright majority in the January parliamentary election.


What's more, previous military confrontations with both Hezbollah and Hamas have only added to those groups' prestige and in many cases bolstered recruiting to their military wings, Israeli officials acknowledge. One example: Amid Israel's military campaign in Gaza, a new all-female Palestinian group that calls itself the "Army of Suicide Bombers" was formed this week.

Israel's aim of crippling Hezbollah could also leave the two sides locked in an ever-escalating battle that eventually spills into a regional war.

The risk is that Hezbollah may seek to ratchet up its attacks in the days ahead, possibly employing long-range missiles capable of hitting Tel Aviv. The group is estimated to have dozens of such missiles. Last weekend it fired one, scoring a direct hit on an Israeli navy warship, killing four sailors. Another concern is the group may seek to target sensitive military and industrial facilities. Either scenario could force Israel to retaliate in an even more-aggressive manner.

Fears of Broader War

Taken to an extreme, some officials and analysts say it could leave Israel with no option but to attack Hezbollah's main backers, Syria and Iran. If that were to happen, the war could engulf the entire Middle East region.

Though unlikely, that possibility is by no means implausible. Two months ago, Hezbollah targeted and hit a sensitive Israeli military outpost used for electronic eavesdropping. On Sunday, a Hezbollah rocket barrage struck about 100 feet from one of Israel's most important weapons-research facility in the Haifa area. That attack is worrisome for Israel because it suggests Hezbollah may have acquired detailed intelligence on Israel's most-sensitive military and civilian facilities.

Sunni Arab leaders in places like Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt worry that the current conflict provides yet more evidence that Iran is seeking to broaden its influence in the region, at the moment through Shiite proxies like Hezbollah and the Mahdi Army in Iraq. Tehran, through money and high-end armaments like Hezbollah's long-range missiles, is seen as increasingly seeking to take the lead in the fight against Israel. The move is sure to give Tehran added prestige among ordinary Arabs on the street, enhancing the divide between citizens and their leaders.

Most Vulnerable

Jordan is among the countries most vulnerable to the instability gripping Iraq and Lebanon. Its population is more than 60% Palestinian and strongly supportive of organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah in their fight against Israel. Al Qaeda militants fighting in Iraq, meanwhile, have repeatedly sought to strike the Hashemite Kingdom, succeeding in blowing up the lobbies of three luxury hotels in Amman last November.

Jordanian officials say they increasingly feel that they're being caught in the vise between Washington and a newly empowered Tehran. Attempts to confront Iran and Hezbollah could feed more unrest internally, say these officials. But allowing Iran to continue supporting Hezbollah and develop nuclear arms could significantly shift the balance in the Middle East.

"Either way we lose," said a senior Jordanian official.

Write to Neil King Jr. at neil.king@wsj.com21, Karby Leggett at karby.leggett@wsj.com22 and Jay Solomon at jay.solomon@wsj.com23

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115326594953910476.html
Beamer
QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Jul 23 2006, 03:39 PM)
I think Hezbollah started this thing not because Iran or Syria told them to do it but because Hezb knew that Israel would hit back hard. Such tactics would provide TV images that would shame Israel in the eyes of the world. At the same time, the pluck of Hezb standing up to the world's 2nd most powerful military force makes Iran and Syria look good, meaning more support will come Hezb's way.
*



I believe that Israel is the world's fifth most powerful military force. I read that today or yesterday. Not sure who the top four are except for the U.S.
Beamer
QUOTE(Abu Beacon @ Jul 23 2006, 05:02 PM)
Interesting theory, jeffmo.

There are so many imponderables at the moment that it's a " take your pick " situation. I'm sure you know that the one thing that's really bothering me is the awful damage being done to Lebanon. Somehow, Hezbullah's actions are making Lebanon pay heavily.

In a discussion I had this morning with what I call a headline reader, I was asked " What does Bush have to do with all of this?

My answer was " Everything "

If we had been fortunate to have had a statesman as president 5 or 6 years ago instead of a political puppet, we might have a peaceful MidEast now instead of millions and millions of Arabs hating our guts.

But undoubtedly that was part of the plan.

A.B.
*


This article by John Judis in The New Republic displays the longing for diplomacy that you seem to have.



QUOTE
NEEDED: AMERICAN DIPLOMACY.
Help Wanted
by John B. Judis
Only at TNR Online
Post date: 07.19.06

In their communiqué on Sunday, the G-8 nations warned that Hamas and Hezbollah threatened to "plunge the Middle East into chaos and provoke a wider conflict," and they also cautioned Israel "to exercise utmost restraint" in retaliating against attacks. The United States was a signatory to, rather than a subject of, the document; but when the final account of this crisis is written--perhaps years from now--the Bush administration is sure to figure as a factor. That's because over the last few decades most, if not all, Arab-Israeli crises have occurred when the United States has been either unable or unwilling to play an aggressive role as a mediator; and most have only abated after the United States has finally thrown itself into the middle of them. This latest conflict, which has engulfed Gaza and Lebanon and could spread eastward, may not prove to be an exception to this rule.

One could go back as far as 1948, but let's start with 1967. In May of that year, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser ordered U.N. peacekeeping troops out of the Sinai and closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Nasser, who, as Michael Oren shows in Six Days of War, was well past his prime, was by no means determined to go to war. He half expected that the United Nations or the United States would arrange a diplomatic settlement that would make him look good without costing him troops. The Israelis looked to the United States to prevent war, but Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of State Dean Rusk, preoccupied with the Vietnam War, reneged on a promise to organize a "Red Sea Regatta" to break the blockade. Johnson initially warned the Israelis not to launch a preemptive strike, but then equivocated.

Israel won the Six Day War, but the conflict with the Arab states, and particularly Egypt, continued unabated. In 1971, however, the new Egyptian President Anwar Sadat initiated a series of peace proposals very similar to what the Israelis and Egyptians would agree on at Camp David seven years later. In a gesture aimed at gaining American support, Sadat also threw out Egypt's Soviet advisors. The Israelis balked at Sadat's proposals, but they might have eventually come around if the United States had pushed harder. The Nixon administration, like the Johnson administration, was focused elsewhere. National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger was preoccupied with the Vietnam War. He had consigned the Arab-Israeli conflict to Secretary of State William Rogers, who, along with Assistant Secretary Joseph Sisco, tried to marshal administration support for the Egyptian plan but, encountering resistance, gave up. And so did Sadat and the Egyptians, who along with the Syrians went to war in 1973 and came close to defeating Israel. Finally, after that war, Kissinger began his furious round of shuttle diplomacy, which helped lay the basis for Jimmy Carter's success in pushing the Camp David agreement.

Camp David ended hostilities between Israel and Egypt, but not between Israel and the Palestinians and Syrians. Soon after Reagan took office, Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and his Defense Minister Ariel Sharon hatched a plan to end Palestinian attacks from Lebanon by driving the PLO out of Beirut and installing a pro-Israel Christian government. Reagan's Secretary of State, Alexander Haig, has insisted that he tried to dissuade Sharon from invading, but Israeli and American writers have concluded that Haig gave Sharon at least an amber light to invade. Like the Six Day War, Israel's invasion of Lebanon solved one problem but created many new ones, including a new anti-Israeli Shia opposition, led by a group called Hezbollah. It would have been to America's and Israel's benefit if Haig and Reagan had acted more forthrightly, but Reagan was preoccupied with winning his domestic program and Haig with Central America.

Of course, there were many other factors that contributed to these crises, but what remains striking is that they occurred at a time when American foreign-policy makers were either looking elsewhere or were divided about what to do. Equally striking is that the greatest progress in Arab-Israeli relations occurred during the Carter and Clinton administrations when American policy-makers were most clearly concentrating on the conflict.

When George W. Bush assumed the presidency in January 2001, he withdrew from the ongoing negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians that had begun at Camp David and continued at Taba. These might have broken down anyway--the second intifada had started--but Bush's alternative of letting matters take their own course only made things worse. Bush waited until April 2002 to declare the mounting violence between Israelis and Palestinians unacceptable, but even then he proved incapable of bringing the two sides together to halt it. By that point, Bush had his own preoccupation: the coming invasion of Iraq.

Pressured by British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bush eventually agreed to a "road map" for peace, but his principal means of seeking peace in the region were based on a neoconservative fantasy about the road to Jerusalem passing through Baghdad (which presumed the success of the American invasion and occupation of Iraq) and on the assumption that Palestinian elections would result in a moderate alternative to the late Yasir Arafat. When these strategies failed, the administration pulled back its diplomatic effort. Its response to Hamas's election has been confused and divided, and helped set the stage for the present crisis. As it began, the United States was nowhere to be found. On July 5, Yossi Beilin wrote in Haaretz:


One of the most striking phenomena of recent weeks, given the stepped-up launching of Qassam rockets on Sderot, the painful incident at Kerem Shalom, and the abduction of IDF soldier Gilad Shalit, is the absence of the American factor. ... [I]n terms of direct influence on the ground, there has been absolute American silence.

What to expect next? One can hope that the Bush administration, like the Nixon administration, will learn from its failures and devote itself to easing, if not resolving, the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Unfortunately, Bush's public and private (but overheard) statements at the G-8 summit were not promising.

John B. Judis is a senior editor at The New Republic and a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.


http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=w060717&s=judis071806
progressivephoenix
Hmm, in that case, Hezbollah is not so plucky afterall. Maybe they should pick on someone really tough, like China. Flee.gif


QUOTE(beamer619 @ Jul 23 2006, 05:24 PM)
I believe that Israel is the world's fifth most powerful military force.  I read that today or yesterday.  Not sure who the top four are except for the U.S.
*
progressivephoenix
You have to put this in context with Israel's incursion into Gaza. Either Hezbollah started to take pressure off their friends in Hamas, or Israel started because this was a chance to kill two birds with one stone.

QUOTE(jeffmoskin @ Jul 23 2006, 03:39 PM)
I think Hezbollah started this thing not because Iran or Syria told them to do it but because Hezb knew that Israel would hit back hard. Such tactics would provide TV images that would shame Israel in the eyes of the world. At the same time, the pluck of Hezb standing up to the world's 2nd most powerful military force makes Iran and Syria look good, meaning more support will come Hezb's way.
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Snuffysmith
This is worth a read


http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9397

July 24, 2006
Danger! Legacy Ahead!
There's a reason the Middle East is heating up
by Justin Raimondo
The Israelis are conducting not only a shooting war but also a propaganda war: if there is a way to "spin" the deaths of Lebanese civilians, the smashing of the infrastructure, and even the bombing of an anti-Hezbollah Christian-owned television station, then surely Israel's skillful propagandists – here and in Israel proper – are bound to find it. The idea is to shape the narrative of the conflict so that Israel is portrayed as a reluctant warrior.

In America, this is easy: the "mainstream" media, always attentive to the powerful Israel lobby, refrains from showing pictures that might upset the carefully nurtured image of the Jewish state as a heroic David up against an Arab-Muslim giant. Whenever there is an "expert" to be consulted, half the time it's an Israeli, or someone from Israel's amen corner, who explains to the TV audience that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization along the lines of al-Qaeda – without mentioning that this is no guerrilla group, but a highly organized political party, which, as President Lahoud of Lebanon reminded us the other day, is "part of the government of Lebanon." The other day on MSNBC's Scarborough Country, I had to laugh when Joe Scarborough announced the guests on an upcoming segment about the Lebanon crisis: Bibi Netanyahu, Mort Zuckerman, and Pat Buchanan.

If anyone else but Buchanan had been involved it would have been the onscreen equivalent of a mugging, but Pat acquitted himself quite well. The point, however, is that there is no question of "balance" when it comes to media portrayals of the July war, or of any topics having to do with Israel. It's all pro-Israel, all the time, and it is nothing short of miraculous that a trenchant critic like Buchanan is allowed to give his opinion at all.

The U.S. government, therefore, has a lot of leeway when it comes to its relationship with Israel. It can get away with pursuing Israel's interests, to the detriment of our own, simply on account of the blindness of most people to the nature of the "special relationship" – and its geopolitical and financial repercussions. Very few know, for example, that Israel gets over $3 billion a year from the U.S. in "foreign aid," and that we subsidize the Israeli military budget to the tune of some 20 percent. Any news that puts Israel in a bad light is downplayed, or else completely ignored. For example, the shocking charges against two lobbyists for Israel, AIPAC honcho Steve Rosen and the group's Iran analyst, Keith Weissman – spying for Israel – should have generated front-page headlines; instead, the case has puttered along pretty much beneath the media radar.

Everybody knows that two soldiers were abducted by Hezbollah: but how many know that thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese were abducted by the IDF during the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon – and are still being held!

In Europe, it is quite different: the pictures of the slaughter are getting through via the mass media and people are less naïve about the true nature of the Israeli state. Even the British government broke with the Yanks on this one, as Foreign Office official Kim Howells looked askance at the rape of Lebanon:

"The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people: these have not been surgical strikes. If they are chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation…. I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon."


The sheer brazenness of this operation, and the American complicity, is shocking – and here I thought nothing could shock me anymore. After all, Israel has invaded a sovereign nation, attacked communities that are hostile to Hezbollah (such as the Christian Maronites), bombed Lebanese army barracks, and tried to shut down the Lebanese media – all of which are roughly comparable to, say, Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. Not that any of this is surprising, coming from the Israelis – but the Americans have not caviled in the slightest. If anything, George W. Bush is more pro-Israel than many Israelis, and his support for the invasion has been unequivocal, even enthusiastic.

This enthusiasm is partly explained by the president's fulsome support for the Jewish state: no American administration has been quite as pro-Israel as this one. Yet one could imagine that, behind the scenes, there would be tensions between the U.S. and Israel, at least over the timetable of the Lebanese incursion. The longer Israel stays in and keeps up the merciless bombardment, the more pressure Washington faces from its Arab allies in the region, who fear their populations' outrage at the continuing carnage. U.S. support for the invasion is also having repercussions in Iraq, where the ruling Shi'ite coalition is not exactly friendly to Tel Aviv, Shi'ite radicals are up in arms, and the speaker of the Parliament is now calling for the withdrawal of U.S. troops.

The U.S. is provoking all sorts of negative reactions to its endorsement of Israeli brutality, and so why, one has to ask, are they doing it?

Aside from the usual reasons – this administration's pro-Israel orientation, the hijacking of American foreign policy by the neoconservatives, and the support for Israel coming from important Republican constituencies, such as the evangelical Christians – the decisive factor is George W. Bush's growing fixation on his legacy as president.

Every occupant of the White House who approaches the end of his second term has similar concerns, naturally enough: they all want to ensure that they not go down in the history books as a failure. But this president, who has had to endure a merciless mocking from the chattering classes over his relative lack of sophistication and general state of unpreparedness for the role of chief executive, has a lot more invested in this than most. He has prided himself on not taking the easy road, swimming against the tide in the hope that history will prove him right – and now, as the end of his reign approaches, he must take history by the throat or else forever lose the opportunity.

The Israeli invasion is one such opportunity. What was surprising about the American response to Tel Aviv's untrammeled aggression was not that they wholeheartedly endorsed it, but how quickly and pointedly they used the occasion to turn up the heat on Damascus and score points against Tehran. Can they really be thinking about taking on Syria and Iran – even as the Iraqi "model" explodes in a maelstrom of sectarian strife?

Yes, they can, and it's due, in large degree, to one man's vanity. In George W. Bush's case, this is one of his most striking characteristics, which, entwined with his arrogance and stubbornness, seems to define his personality. He doesn't want to go down in history as George the Clueless: he dreams of being George the Conqueror, the man who had the vision to defy the experts, the media, and the American public, and "liberate" not only Iraq but the entire Middle East.

George W. Bush bears all the ominous hallmarks of a True Believer. Here is a president who, in his last inaugural address, proclaimed "the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world." Grandiosity doesn't even begin to describe the presidential mindset – it is more like megalomania – and the abundant danger of such ambition on the part of such a man is all too apparent.

"By our efforts we have lit a fire as well, a fire in the minds of men. It warms those who feel its power; it burns those who fight its progress."

The neocons thrilled to those words as the president uttered them in his second inaugural address, but lately, it seemed, the fire had gone out of George. Before the Israelis unleashed their fury on the hapless civilians of Beirut, the War Party, you'll remember, was in full retreat. Chastened by the failure of the Iraqi misadventure, beleaguered by legal and political problems on the home front – a few indictments, the growing unpopularity of the war – and weakened by defections from their own ranks, the neoconservatives were on the run. In the administration, they were getting out of government – Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith – and in the public square they were keeping a low profile.

Not anymore. A week or so before the invasion, Richard Perle attacked Condi Rice in the Washington Post, signaling neocon disaffection with an administration that seemed to have fallen prey to a paralyzing realism. Iran was being allowed to get away with thumbing its nose at U.S. demands that the mullahs dismantle their nascent nuclear industry. The regime-change campaign aimed at Syria seemed to have fizzled out. In short: the Revolution had been betrayed.

The Israelis changed all that when they started bombing Beirut. The regime-changers once again had their agenda front and center, and the prospect of a conflict with Syria and/or Iran gained instant momentum.

The Revolution, once badly stalled, is revving up its motors, and the War Party is back in its full fighting stance. What is appalling and frightening is that the Democrats are in many cases worse than the Republicans on the Lebanon invasion question: this means there will be no brake on the administration in taking this road to further "regime change" in the Middle East.

Iran is their ultimate goal, but the road to Tehran runs through Damascus, and the preparations for the Syrian campaign have been extensive and very well thought out. They succeeded in pinning the blame for the assassination of Rafik Hariri on the Syrians, even though the evidence seems to contradict this conclusion. The U.S.-Israeli campaign to get the Syrian army kicked out of Lebanon achieved its goal just a few months before the Israelis marched in. This could be serendipity, but here's another "coincidence" – a week or so before the invasion, the Lebanese announced they had busted a cell of Israeli agents who had been carrying out assassinations in the country. One wonders what a full investigation of their activities would have revealed – if the war hadn't delayed or obscured it. After all, someone killed Hariri…

The Israelis, in any case, are now destroying Hariri's legacy – the Beirut he rebuilt after the ravages of the last Israeli assault – and they won't stop until their masters in Washington start to get antsy. And maybe not even then. In the case of the "special relationship" between Washington and Tel Aviv, it is hard to tell, very often, who is the master and who is the slave. As Professor Paul W. Schroeder put it in The American Conservative, the Iraq war represented "something unique in history":

"It is common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy, getting smaller powers to fight for their interests. This would be the first instance I know where a great power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as the proxy of a small client state."

Israel is doing its own fighting – for once – but don't worry, relief is on the way. The American secretary of state has a plan for a "robust" international force that will take on the job of cleaning out Hezbollah and administering the occupation of a "buffer zone" within Lebanon. We are assured there will be no Americans in this force, but that seems highly improbable. If ever such a force comes into existence and is sent to police the mean streets of south Lebanon, then you can bet your bottom dollar the Yanks are coming, too.

In the meantime, it will take months to organize an international "peacekeeping" mission: this will give the Israelis plenty of time to continue their terror campaign, and perhaps come right to the gates of Beirut. The drama has yet to play itself out, but whatever the outcome, we can be sure that the script was written well in advance.
Snuffysmith
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/...lton/index.html

Bolton defends Israel's actions in Lebanon

Sunday, July 23, 2006; Posted: 5:19 p.m. EDT (21:19 GMT)
Manage alerts | What Is This? WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Against growing international criticism that Israel's response to Hezbollah's July 12 attack has been disproportionate, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations on Sunday defended Israel's use of force.

"I think it's important that we not fall into the trap of moral equivalency here," Ambassador John Bolton told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer."

"What Hezbollah has done is kidnap Israeli soldiers and rain rockets and mortar shells on innocent Israeli civilians. What Israel has done in response is act in self-defense. And I don't quite know what the argument about proportionate force means here. Is Israel entitled only to kidnap two Hezbollah operatives and fire a couple of rockets aimlessly into Lebanon?

"The situation is that Israel has lived under the terrorist threat of Hezbollah for years, and these most recent attacks have given it the legitimate right, the same right America would have if we were attacked, to deal with the problem. And that's what they're doing."

The fighting began July 12, when Hezbollah fighters killed three Israeli soldiers and abducted two others in northern Israel. (Full story)

Since then, Israeli warplanes have bombed Lebanese towns and villages deemed Hezbollah strongholds and its forces have moved into Lebanese territory in what Israel has called temporary incursions intended to push Hezbollah fighters far enough from the border so they cannot threaten Israel.

In doing so, Israeli forces have killed at least 271 people and wounded at least 711, according to officials with the Lebanese security forces.

The United States has taken note and responded accordingly, Bolton said. "We have urged the government of Israel to exercise the utmost care in the conduct of its military operations, to avoid innocent Lebanese civilians, and to avoid damage to the democratic government of Lebanon, and I think Israel, being a responsible democratic state itself, is trying to carry that out."

Hezbollah attacks have killed seven Israeli civilians and 20 soldiers and wounded more than 300 civilians and more than 60 soldiers, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

Bolton bristled at last week's suggestion from Louise Arbour, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, that Israeli leaders could be charged with war crimes.

"You know, in America, prosecutors are not supposed to threaten people in public based on press reports," said Bolton, a graduate of Yale Law School. "I would just say as one lawyer to another, that -- to Mrs. Arbour, that she should consider her professional ethics and responsibilities very carefully here before threatening criminal charges based on press accounts."

And Bolton gave little weight to Saturday's comment from the British minister of state, Kim Howells, critical of Israel's attacks on Lebanon.

"These have not been surgical strikes, and it's very, very difficult, I think, to understand the kind of military tactics that have been used," Howells said. "You know, if they're chasing Hezbollah, you go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation, and that's the difference."

Asked whether the remark represents a rift between the Bush administration and the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair, Bolton said, "I don't think so."

Bolton said Bush has spoken several times with Blair about the matter, and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has been in touch with her British counterpart.

"So, there may be individual comments here and there. That even happens in the American government from time to time. But I think we're working very closely with the United Kingdom on this matter."

Rice is preparing to travel to the region for talks with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in Israel and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank. She also plans to attend an international conference in Rome, Italy, on crafting a peace agreement and shoring up Lebanon's government.

She did not plan to meet with Hezbollah or with Syrian leaders. (Full story)
Beamer
It's unreal how "supportive" our government is of Israel's excessive force. Maybe it's because we admire that sort of behavior.
70sliberalism
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Jul 23 2006, 11:13 PM)
It's unreal how "supportive" our government is of Israel's excessive force.  Maybe it's because we admire that sort of behavior.
*

When attacked I do and so do you. I've seen you attack with force here.
progressivephoenix
Prior US administrations tried to restrain Israel. This one encourages them. Big difference.

QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 23 2006, 09:15 PM)
When attacked I do and so do you. I've seen you attack with force here.
*
70sliberalism
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Jul 23 2006, 08:32 PM)
You have to put this in context with Israel's incursion into Gaza.  Either Hezbollah started to take pressure off their friends in Hamas, or Israel started because this was a chance to kill two birds with one stone.
*

I woule shed no tears if Israel rid the world of the virus that is Hamas and Hezzbollah.

They hide behind innocent civillians. They are the murderers. They know full well what Israel's response will be. They use Palestinian and Lebanese civillians as pawns in a game.

This is what sickens me about people who are ignorant of the politics of terrorism. They do not understand or refuse to underastand that Hamas and Hezzbollah.... USE HUMANS AS PAWNS IN A GAME OF POWER!

Just like the terrorists who behead people in Iraq...who are for the most part FOREIGNERS!

It is a game of power grabbing.
progressivephoenix
I would shed no tears either. But I don't beleive they can be defeated militarily. They feed on human misery like roaches feed on crumbs. If you spray the roaches but leave the crumbs, you just get more roaches.

QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 23 2006, 09:20 PM)
I woule shed no tears if Israel rid the world of the virus that is Hamas and Hezzbollah.

They hide behind innocent civillians. They are the murderers. They know full well what Israel's response will be. They use Palestinian and Lebanese civillians as pawns in a game.

This is what sickens me about people who are ignorant of the politics of terrorism. They do not understand or refuse to underastand that Hamas and Hezzbollah.... USE HUMANS AS PAWNS IN A GAME OF POWER!

Just like the terrorists who behead people in Iraq...who are for the most part FOREIGNERS!

It is a game of power grabbing.
*
70sliberalism
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Jul 23 2006, 11:29 PM)
I would shed no tears either. But I don't beleive they can be defeated militarily.  They feed on human misery like roaches feed on crumbs. If you spray the roaches but leave the crumbs, you just get more roaches.
*

I understand but I disagree. The PLO was chased out of every state they infested for decades. Terrorism will not cease with the end of either group, but without a military response they just get bigger.

How much larger have they gotten and what number of weapons has Hezzbollah acquired since it was left alone to grow unhindered by military action?
progressivephoenix
I get your point. But this is not the PLO. This is a dangerous ideology that transcends borders. There is a reason that Lebanon breeds terrorists and Denmark doesn't.

We'll just have to disagree and see what happens. One way or another, I hope we are not still arguing about this in our old age. That would be really sad.

QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 23 2006, 09:32 PM)
I understand but I disagree. The PLO was chased out of every state they infested for decades. Terrorism will not cease with the end of either group, but without a military response they just get bigger.

How much larger have they gotten and what number of weapons has Hezzbollah acquired since it was left alone to grow unhindered by military action?
*
70sliberalism
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Jul 23 2006, 11:50 PM)
I get your point. But this is not the PLO.  This is a dangerous ideology that transcends borders.  There is a reason that Lebanon breeds terrorists and Denmark doesn't.

We'll just have to disagree and see what happens.  One way or another, I hope we are not still arguing about this in our old age. That would be really sad.
*

The Bushies are right about one thing. Democracy is lacking in the Arab and mideast cultures. Denmark was not a very nice country centuries ago. But even not too long ago didn't tthey have colonies?

Wealth and trade changes people.

To quote Golda Mier "There will be peace in the middle east between Palestinians and Jews when Palestinian mothers love their children more than they hate the Jews." There might never be peace in the middle east in our life times as Arab clan society still exists. the Irag/Iran war was ugly in the extreme.
70sliberalism
Hello IH.
progressivephoenix
Denmark had colonies? I think you are confusing it with Holland.

There are 1 million Arabs living peacefully in Israel proper. They only difference between them and other Arabs is what side of the border they were on in 1949. There is always hope.


QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 23 2006, 09:56 PM)
The Bushies are right about one thing. Democracy is lacking in the Arab and mideast cultures. Denmark was not a very nice country centuries ago. But even not too long ago didn't tthey have colonies?

Wealth and trade changes people.

To quote Golda Mier "There will be peace in the middle east between Palestinians and Jews when Palestinian mothers love their children more than they hate the Jews." There might never be peace in the middle east in our life times as Arab clan society still exists. the Irag/Iran war was ugly in the extreme.
*
70sliberalism
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Jul 24 2006, 12:03 AM)
Denmark had colonies?  I think you are confusing it with Holland.

There are 1 million Arabs living peacefully in Israel proper.  They only difference between them and other Arabs is what side of the border they were on in 1949.  There is always hope.
*

I didn't exactly confuse them, that is why I asked. I was unsure and lazy.

I know. But a left wing frormer Israeli I know kept saying the Palestinians and Arabs were second class citizens in Israel. I said...welcome to humanity, but they are still better off than when if they lived in most Arab states.

There is always hope. That is why I go crazy when I listen to the far left or the far right.
Doom and gloom and they ALL act as if they own the moral high ground.

But sometimes unfortunately people don't learn the lessons right away. War is a human tragedy that is a part of society. Bring people together and there will always be agressors. Try and stop it and you become a totalitarianist control freak.

Maybe evolution will weed it out, but that is something we will definately not be around to see.
Indianhead
When I see such events going on...I step back a little.
Problem is the big picture looks worse than the microcasm.

As we see Syria and Iran as enablers for Hezbollah,
the population of the Arab world sees us as the same
for Israel. If the Lebanese government topples under
the strain and one of us decides to strike Iran...just
how desperate will the radicals become? What if mass
protests and/or revolts break out in Jordan, Egypt and/or Saudi Arabia?

---------------------------------

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...ld/15106560.htm
Posted on Sun, Jul. 23, 2006

Rice heads for Middle East as anger boils
over U.S. stand on war in Lebanon


By Shashank Bengali
McClatchy Newspapers

DAMASCUS, Syria - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrives in the Middle East on Monday with the Arab world seething with anger at U.S. policy on the war in Lebanon.

Across the region, from the tortuous streets of Damascus' historic district to the deserted cafes of bombed-out Beirut and the crowded marketplaces of Cairo, the Bush administration's unconditional support for Israel's bombardment of Hezbollah militants is hardening anti-American sentiment among moderates and hard-liners alike.

Many are also furious with U.S.-backed regimes in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, which have failed to denounce what's widely seen as the Israeli military's indiscriminate killing of Lebanese civilians.

Rice has said she will not push for a cease-fire and will not meet with the leaders of Hezbollah or their Syrian supporters, signaling to many in the Middle East that the U.S.-Israeli alliance is impregnable and that the Bush administration is willing to let Israel's military campaign drag on despite the deaths of more than 350 people in Lebanon, mostly civilians.

"So she's coming here when there are no more Lebanese left. To do what exactly?" chortled Abbas Reslam, a 36-year-old refugee who fled to Syria last week after bombs fell outside his home in the southern Lebanese town of Taiba.

More than 150,000 Lebanese have escaped to neighboring Syria since Israel began pummeling Shiite Muslim areas in south Beirut and along the Israeli-Lebanese border in retaliation for Hezbollah's July 12 kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers.

Television images of dead and bloodied children have been beamed across the Middle East, fueling anger at the United States and Israel and sympathy for Hezbollah's radical Shiite militants.

"America supports Israel even if what she does is wrong," said Nabeel Kahal, who hangs a picture of Hezbollah's bearded, smiling leader, Hassan Nasrallah, in the window of his general store on a bustling street in Damascus.

"People supported him (Nasrallah) before the war, but now they support him even more strongly. His popularity is going up and up."

With rage at the U.S. invasion of Iraq and its standoff with Iran over its nuclear program still boiling, some analysts say giving Israel carte blanche against the region's militant Islamic groups - including Hamas in the Palestinian territories - is undermining the Bush administration's war on terror.

Muqtedar Khan, a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution's Saban Center for Middle East Policy, wrote in an editorial last week:

"Muslims across the world are watching a nuclear power supported, armed and funded by the U.S. bombard and kill dozens of civilians, destroy the economy and infrastructure of Palestine and Lebanon, kidnap dozens of elected Palestinian leaders, bomb their homes, and all the U.S. does is provide political cover for Israel in the U.N. Security Council and on the world stage. Al-Qaida must be running out of enrollment forms."

Even in the Christian sections of Beirut, which are largely immune to the violence, anger at Israel is growing.

"If they keep targeting civilians like this, they're only hurting themselves," said Riad Khattar, the Christian owner of an Internet cafe in Beirut.

"Even the Christians are now starting to support Hezbollah. This was not the fact before the war. By killing civilians, they are making Hezbollah stronger and stronger."

But the news that most riled Khattar, 35, was Rice's statement last week that the violence in Lebanon was merely the "birth pangs of a new Middle East."

"We were surprised because we sure didn't feel" birth pangs, Khattar said. "We feel bombs."


The "new Middle East" includes U.S.-friendly regimes in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia, which condemned Hezbollah for what all three called "adventurism" that threatened Arab interests. The comments underscored the estrangement between the regimes and their people, many of whom see their governments as American puppets.

"Nothing compares to the shock over the Arab official position," said an editorial on Sunday in Al-Masry Al-Yom, an independent Egyptian daily. "We all know the Arab regimes have turned into a paralyzed, impaired lot, unable to act, but we never imagined that this impairment would lead to public adherence with Israel against an Arab nation."

Hezbollah's two state sponsors, Iran and Syria, retain support among Arabs. In Cairo, a taxi driver, Mohamed Saleh, said, "Iran and Syria are the only two countries with integrity."

But both countries remain shut out of diplomatic efforts to end the crisis. Neither has been invited to a summit in Rome on Wednesday, and on Sunday John Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, rebuffed Syria's call for direct talks with the United States.

In battered Lebanon, few are optimistic that Rice's visit will end the violence. On Sunday, standing outside the wreckage of his family's apartment building in Beirut's southern suburbs, Zein Sabra demanded that a reporter convey a message to Rice.

"Ask her, you ask her, `Is this the democracy Bush promised?'" demanded Sabra, 37. "If she's coming to stop the war, good, but we know she's not. She already said Israel needs more time to end Hezbollah.

"Well, you tell her we're all Hezbollah, we're all the resistance. This is because of the United States."

-----------------------------
Hannah Allam in Beirut and McClatchy Newspapers special correspondent Miret el Naggar in Cairo contributed to this report.

-------------------------------

So, how many of y'all have read The Sum of All Fears?
Snuffysmith
Israel Open to NATO Troops Along Border

BEIRUT - With deadly force, Israeli warplanes hit fleeing Lebanese
civilians, and Hezbollah militants lobbed rockets at townspeople
across northern Israel, even as diplomatic efforts began to gain
traction. By Laura King and J. Michael Kennedy.
http://email.latimes.com/cgi-bin1/DM/y/e5o...Io30G2B0Hi7W0EO
Snuffysmith
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2300168_pf.html

Saudi Arabia Asks U.S. to Intervene in Lebanon
Humanitarian Situation Is Among Ally's Concerns; Rice to Discuss Crisis With Israel Today

By Michael Abramowitz and Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, July 24, 2006; A13



The Saudi foreign minister personally urged President Bush yesterday to intervene to stop the violence in Lebanon, the most direct sign of mounting frustration among key Arab states with what they see as a hands-off U.S. posture toward Israeli strikes against Hezbollah.

In an Oval Office meeting yesterday afternoon, Prince Saud al-Faisal said, he delivered a letter to Bush from Saudi King Abdullah asking for U.S. help in arranging an immediate cease-fire, a stance U.S. officials have repeatedly rejected on the grounds that it is premature. U.S. officials would not comment directly on the request, saying only that the two sides discussed the humanitarian situation, reconstruction and how to end the violence.

"I found the president very conscious of the destruction and the bloodshed that the Lebanese are suffering," Saud told reporters after the meeting. "His commitment [is] to see the cessation of hostilities. I have heard that from him personally, and that is why he is sending [Condoleezza] Rice to work out the details."

Secretary of State Rice said the need for a cease-fire is "urgent" but cautioned that it had to be on terms that ensure it will last.

The Saudi request for a cease-fire promised to further complicate an already difficult diplomatic mission for Rice, who departed for meetings in Israel and Italy last night after joining Bush in conferring with the Saudi delegation. The United States had been hoping to enlist moderate Arab allies in an effort to pressure Syria and Iran to rein in Hezbollah, but the Saudi move yesterday seemed to cloud that initiative.

Although the Saudis had initially criticized Hezbollah's actions in triggering the new violence, diplomats say the kingdom's leaders have become increasingly distressed about the growing humanitarian crisis in Lebanon. Israeli airstrikes have produced numerous civilian casualties and vast devastation.

One senior European diplomat said the Saudis were also concerned that the package they expect the United States to present to European and Arab allies in Rome this week will be too heavily anti-Iran and anti-Syria.

U.S.-Saudi relations have been strained over terrorism issues and the Bush administration's democracy initiative in the Middle East, but the kingdom remains perhaps the most important American ally in the Arab world, and King Abdullah's views carry influence with Bush.

Mindful of the growing anger among Arab countries, U.S. officials said they expect Rice to convey the administration's concern over the humanitarian problem caused by Israel's choices of targets when she meets with Israeli officials today. But they made no secret of their continuing skepticism of the value of an immediate cease-fire or of their desire to see Israel further weaken Hezbollah, which before the outbreak of hostilities had thousands of fighters and a large cache of missiles and other weapons.

Speaking before the Saudi meeting, White House chief of staff Joshua B. Bolten said the United States is open to the establishment of a international military force to help the Lebanese government maintain security. But he suggested that the time is not yet ripe.

"The purpose of an international force has to be to maintain a sustainable cease-fire," Bolten said on NBC's "Meet the Press." "A cease-fire is sustainable only if we get at the root problem, which is Hezbollah, a terrorist organization that has kidnapped Israeli soldiers and sent rockets into civilian areas in the sovereign territory of Israel."

The events yesterday underscored the complex task awaiting Rice on her first diplomatic foray since the hostilities began in Lebanon July 12, after Hezbollah's cross-border raid triggered a fierce Israeli response. The Bush administration has strongly backed Israel's actions while cautioning Israel to minimize civilian casualties. But that posture has angered the Arab countries, such as Saudi Arabia, on whom the administration must depend to be interlocutors with Syria and Iran.

The United States has refused to negotiate with Syria and Iran, the countries that are thought to have the greatest influence with Hezbollah.

At a dinner last week, Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser in the Carter administration, derided Rice's trip as "sitting in front of a mirror, talking to herself" if she does not deal diplomatically with the major players.

Rice dismissed calls for the United States to talk directly with Syria, noting that former Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and two other senior State Department officials had tried to deal with Damascus -- always unsuccessfully. "The problem is not that we have not talked to Syria but that they have not acted," she said, adding that Damascus has long known what Washington believes it should do.

On CBS's "Face the Nation," Syria's ambassador to the United States, Imad Moustapha, said his country is open to a new dialogue with the United States. "What we are calling for is de-escalation, diplomatic engagement and for the United States to restart playing the role it used to play in the past, the role of the broker of peace," he said.

That idea was shot down by Bolten, who said the administration had close, direct contacts with Syria in Bush's first term, to little effect. "They continued to allow terrorism to flourish," Bolten said. "They supported Hezbollah."

Several major issues will be before Rice on her trip, including a possible cease-fire, the creation of a stabilization force and how to pressure Hezbollah. U.S. officials say they are increasingly focused on the rising civilian death toll, the dislocation of tens of thousands of families and the destruction of buildings and homes.

"The response to the humanitarian problem caused so far has not been adequate," said a senior U.S. official involved, who insisted on anonymity to speak frankly about the situation. "It's an issue for us. We are being partially blamed for it. Something has to be done -- and not in weeks or months. This has to be done urgently."

Some U.S. officials say they have been disappointed with earlier warnings to Israel -- which have gone unheeded -- about the wider regional repercussions of military tactics. "There has been considerable damage to infrastructure and civilians," the senior official added. "We're puzzled by some of the targets. So this question is point number one."

Refining Israel's tactics and limiting its targets are keys to the new U.S. effort to generate more political support for a lasting solution, which might involve more military operations, at a time when the Europeans are pressing for an immediate cease-fire.

Another issue is the composition of an international force to keep Hezbollah away from Israel's border. Israel wants a muscular force that could either disarm Hezbollah or prevent future attacks. But U.S. officials acknowledge the limited interest in another coalition force in the Middle East.

The Israeli defense minister indicated yesterday that his country might accept a force headed by NATO -- an idea John R. Bolton, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said would be worth exploring. Both Bolton, on CNN, and chief of staff Bolten indicated that U.S. troops would not be involved.

In Rome, Rice hopes to refine ideas for the proposed international force with European and Arab allies as well as discuss reconstruction aid for Lebanon. The goal is to move quickly after the hostilities to strengthen the beleaguered government of Prime Minister Fouad Siniora and to draw national support for the prospect of rebuilding Beirut, a city once called the Paris of the Middle East.

Rice learned late last night that Saudi Arabia would attend the Rome conference on Lebanon. Other parties tentatively scheduled to send delegations include Egypt, Jordan, Britain, France, Russia, Germany, the United Nations and the World Bank.


Staff writer Dana Priest contributed to this report.


© 2006 The Washington Post Company
Snuffysmith
DEBKAfile Exclusive: In response to Iranian re-supplies to Hizballah, a US arms airlift began running to Israel Saturday, July 22

July 23, 2006, 3:32 PM (GMT+02:00)

It is carrying fresh stock of bombs, missiles and spare parts for Israeli Air Force aircraft and helicopters. Giant Galaxy C141 transports have been landing, unloading and taking off at short intervals.

DEBKAfile adds: The American airlift to Israel follows the air corridor Iran opened to replenish Hizballah’s stocks on Wednesday, July 19, landing supplies at Syria’s Abu Ad Duhur military airfield north of Homs. The deliveries for Hizballah include large quantities of new missiles, including the long-range Zelzal and Fajr 3 and Fajr 5 missiles, Katyusha rockets, anti-tank and anti-air missiles sent out from the RG HQ in Bandar Abbas on the Persian Gulf. Some of these missiles can reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Thursday, July 21, Iran’s Revolutionary Guards commander Brig.-Gen Yahya Rahim Safavi (picture) assumed command of the Lebanon war from Hizballah’s leader Hassan Nasrallah. RG forward command posts are operating out of Iranian embassies in Beirut and Damascus. Syria has placed its army, Scud
missiles and air force in a state of preparedness.

Copyright 2000-2006 DEBKAfile. All Rights Reserved.
Snuffysmith
NEW CONFLICT IN MIDEAST CONFOUNDS U.S., ISRAEL - DAVID WOOD (BALTIMORE SUN, JULY 23): One of the Army's rising stars, Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, who heads the Army's Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., has pushed hard for the Army to develop what he calls "non-kinetic" skills, meaning those that don't involve firepower: language skills, cultural awareness, the ability to negotiate among warlords or to organize schools, health clinics and defense militias in small towns in Afghanistan, for example.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationwor...ack=1&cset=true

HEZBOLLAH GAMBLES ON HOLDING SHI'ITE HEARTS AND MINDS - THANASSIS CAMBANIS (BOSTON GLOBE, JULY 23)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeas...d_minds?mode=PF

FEARS OF INCREASING HEZBOLLAH'S POPULARITY: AS THE ISRAELI MILITARY CAMPAIGN CONTINUES, THE LEBANESE POPULATION'S SUFFERING GROWS -- AND ITS STANCE TOWARDS HEZBOLLAH BECOMES MORE COMPLEX. AS SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY RALLY AROUND THE ISLAMIC MILITANTS, OTHERS IN LEBANON BLAME THE TERRORISTS FOR THEIR CURRENT WOES - ULRIKE PUTZ (SPIEGEL, JULY 20)
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/internatio...,427754,00.html

A FIRST STEP BACK FROM THE BRINK OP ED CONTRIBUTORS (NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 22): With chaos threatening to engulf Lebanon, the need to resolve the conflict in the Middle East has rarely seemed so urgent. The Op-Ed editors went to seven experts with experience in the region, asking each of them what should be the first step toward defusing the crisis.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/opinion/...%2fContributors

CONDI'S MIDEAST MISSION: AN OPENING TO DISARM HEZBOLLAH AND ISOLATE IRAN ? EDITORIAL (OPINION JOURNAL FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EDITORIAL PAGE, JULY 24): After some initial uncertainty, and mixed messages from the State Department, the Bush Administration now seems properly focused on exploiting the clash between Hezbollah and Israel as a strategic opening.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/fe...ml?id=110008695

TIME FOR REAL DIPLOMACY: VIEWPOINT: FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI ARGUES THAT SECRETARY RICE MUST STAY IN THE REGION AS LONG AS IT TAKES - AND TALK TO EVERYONE - ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI (TIME, JULY 23)
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,...1218021,00.html

BACK INTO HISTORY: THE MIDDLE EAST CRISIS IS GIVING BUSH A SECOND CHANCE TO BE A PEACEMAKER - MIKE ALLEN (TIME, JULY 23): By sending Rice to the region, the White House is gambling that Arab governments fear the Hizballah militants more than they resent the Israelis.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1218059,00.html

. . . . DEADLINE PERILS - ARIEL COHEN (WASHINGTON TIMES, JULY 24): The United States should not impose any deadline that would press Israel to cease its fire.
http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.p...23-093641-6456r

TEHRAN, HEZBOLLAH AND A 'CEASEFIRE' EDITORIAL (WASHINGTON TIMES, JULY 24): The Bush administration needs to continue to fend off ill-considered plans to bring the Israeli operation in Lebanon to a premature conclusion.
http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.p...23-093643-9501r

WEAK HORSES: MOST LIBERALS (AND THE ODD CONSERVATIVE) DON'T WANT TO FIGHT--BUSH DOES - WILLIAM KRISTOL (WEEKLY STANDARD, JULY 21): Bush, Blair, and the Post editors understand that the right policy is to stand behind Israel, and to support that nation in defeating terror --for its own sake, and on behalf of liberal civilization. They understand that we are at war with an axis of jihadist-terrorist organizations and the states that sponsor them.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...12/468osmmx.asp

A STRANGE WAR: ISRAEL IS AT LAST BEING GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO UNLOAD ON JIHADISTS - VICTOR DAVIS HANSON (NATIONAL REVIEW, JULY 21): If the United States really cares about human life and future peace, then we should talk ad nauseam about ?restraint? and ?proportionality? while privately assuring Israel the leeway to smash both Hamas and Hezbollah -- and humiliate Syria and Iran, who may well come off very poorly from their longed-for but bizarre war.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmE1O...DQ2N2ZmMjQ5MmM=

LETTING ISRAEL BE ISRAEL: BUSH'S CONSISTENT APPROACH TO WAR AND PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST - FRED BARNES (WEEKLY STANDARD, JULY 21)
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...12/477gtigo.asp

NATIONAL INTERESTS: ENDING THE MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT PREMATURELY WOULD BE A MISTAKE - CLIFFORD D. MAY (NATIONAL REVIEW, JULY 21): Hezbollah?s defeat would represent a setback for Syria, Iran and the global Militant Islamist movement that is waging war against the U.S. and other free nations.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGM0Y...MTM3ZTViMWM0NGQ
Snuffysmith
MODERNISM VS. FUNDAMENTALISM: BACKING FOR ISRAEL REVEALS TRUE NATURE OF CLASH IN LEBANON - AMOTZ ASA-EL (SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, JULY 23): The free world must understand that defeating Hezbollah in particular, and fundamentalism in general, will take not only military resolve and diplomatic acrobatics, but also financial initiative and ideological conviction.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable

ONWARD CAUTIOUS SOLDIERS - DAVID BROOKS (NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 23): We can't just let reckless tyrannies dominate the Middle East on the supposed grounds the region is not yet ready for freedom.
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/opini...agewanted=print
PAID SUBSCRIPTION

ARMAGEDDON -- I WANT FALWELL IN MY FOXHOLE: AT THE END OF THE DAY -- OR AT THE END OF DAYS -- ISRAEL HAS PLENTY OF TIME FOR ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO HELP THE JEWS - ZEV CHAFETS (LOS ANGELES TIMES, JULY 23): For millions of American evangelical voters, living right includes supporting Israel.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-...inion-rightrail

HEZBOLLAH IS HERE - MICHELLE MALKIN (WASHINGTON TIMES, JULY 22): The Jew-hating terrorists of Hezbollah who call themselves the "party of God" are already in America, plotting attacks, raising money, slipping through the cracks.
http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.p...21-090022-1236r

HEZBOLLAH'S APOCALYPSE NOW - AMAL SAAD-GHORAYEB (WASHINGTON POST, JULY 23): Hezbollah's face-off with Israel is not only a defensive war of survival (in response to the declared Israeli and U.S. objective of eliminating the organization), but also an attempt to shatter the myth of Israeli invincibility (which explains why Israel also views this conflict in existential terms).
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2101363_pf.html

FIND A BETTER WAY - BOB HERBERT (NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 24): The United States should have whispered into Israel?s ear, the message being: ?The carnage has to cease. We?ll find a better way.?
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/07/24/opini...2fBob%20Herbert
PAID SUBSCRIPTION
Snuffysmith
STRENGTHENING MILITANTS, MARGINALIZING MODERATES IN THE MIDDLE EAST - BILL SCHER (HUFFINGTON POST, JULY 23): Truly befuddling is why the Bush administration did not use its leverage with the Israeli government to shore up Hamas pragmatists.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-scher/s...html?view=print

BUNKERED DOWN FOR A WAR OF ATTRITION - SAMI MOUBAYED (ASIA TIMES, JULY 22): The international community does not seem in a hurry to end the war. Spearheaded by the Americans (with the notable exceptions of Italy, Russia and France), countries have sided with Israel in its war on Hezbollah.
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG22Ak01.html

ISRAEL?S CRIMINAL ACCOMPLICE - PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS (COUNTERPUNCH, JULY 24): There never was any doubt of the Bush Regime?s complicity in Israel?s naked aggression against the Lebanese civilian population.
http://www.counterpunch.org/Roberts07242006.html

A PERILOUS EXCURSION INTO THE DISTANT PAST, STARTING SEVEN WHOLE WEEKS AGO: HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS AND ISRAEL: EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW - ALEXANDER COCKBURN (COUNTERPUNCH, JULY 21): Forcing the US to pressure Israel to settle the basic problem takes political courage, and virtually no US politician is prepared to buck the Israel lobby, however many families in Lebanon and Gaza may be sacrificed on the altar of such cowardice.
http://www.counterpunch.org/Cockburn07212006.html

DISASTER IN THE MAKING - CHARLEY REESE (ANTIWAR.COM, JULY 23): You can observe three important things simultaneously in the Middle East: One, Israel's total disregard for the lives and property of the Arab people; two, the effectiveness of the Israeli propaganda machine; and three, the utterly craven support for Israel by the U.S. government.
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=9385

WHY ISRAELI BOMBING MIGHT NOT BE ENOUGH TO WIPE OUT HEZBOLLAH IT ALSO MIGHT LEAD TO BACKLASH AMONG LEBANESE - DAVID BIALE (SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, JULY 23): Pinned down in Iraq, the American Army cannot attend to the real enemies in the Middle East region. And American diplomacy can no longer play its traditional role as "honest broker."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...&type=printable

SPANISH LESSONS FOR ISRAEL - NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF (NEW YORK TIMES, JULY 23): Israel is likely to kill enough Lebanese to outrage the world, increase anti-Israeli and anti-American attitudes, nurture a new generation of anti-Israeli guerrillas, and help hard-liners throughout the region and beyond.
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/opini...agewanted=print
PAID SUBSCRIPTION

DARK STAIN OF CONFLICT WILL SPREAD, LINGER - ANTHONY H. CORDESMAN (BALTIMORE SUN, JULY 21, 2006): The regional effects will be deeply negative. Israel will have U.S. support, but images of Israeli attacks on Lebanon will further alienate Arabs and Muslims throughout the world.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/o...-oped-headlines

ISRAEL'S DISPROPORTIONATE VIOLENCE NO SURPRISE - JONATHAN COOK (ANTIWAR.COM, JULY 23): If the US allows itself to be handcuffed to Israel's even more extreme version of the "war on terror," the consequences will be dire not just for the Palestinians or the region, but for all of us.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9390
Istoodforu
Let's do some brainstorming.

What can we do in the way of citizen diplomacy to save lives.

Letters to the editor challenging MSM assertions justifying attcks on civilians.
Letters to Senators and Representatives urging a return of US policy to being an honest broker in Middle East conflict.
Letters to Senators and Representatives expressing outrage and dismay for accepting AIPAC money for campaign financing.

We urgently need more ideas and grassroots action. Less than half of Americans in polls support the Shrub's policy in the Middle East. Can we seize the moment?
70sliberalism
There is nothing anyone here can do. Israel is defending herself against terrorist attacks and the US government is in no position to stop them. They will stop when Hezzbollah is crippled.

We invaded Afghanistan for very similar reasons.
progressivephoenix
That's true. Israel doesn't care what the American public thinks. Neither does BushCo. The best thing we can do is figure out how to stabilize Iraq, if we even can. If BushCo would even listen to anybody on that issue. If he would even read a newspaper or watch TV. Or sober up.


QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 24 2006, 06:26 AM)
There is nothing anyone here can do. Israel is defending herself against terrorist attacks and the US government is in no position to stop them. They will stop when Hezzbollah is crippled.

We invaded Afghanistan for very similar reasons.
*
70sliberalism
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Jul 24 2006, 08:31 AM)
That's true. Israel doesn't care what the American public thinks. Neither does BushCo.  The best thing we can do is figure out how to stabilize Iraq, if we even can.  If BushCo would even listen to anybody on that issue.  If he would even read a newspaper or watch TV.  Or sober up.
*

Why would Israel care what anyone else thinks when it comes to survival?

But they do care what we think, because we are very important to their survival. I am sure they could find a way of surviving without us, but they would be in a more desperate situation and that would be worse than what we have now wouldn't it?

If anyone thinks Israel deopesn't have plans/fall back plan on how to survive without US aid they don't know diddly squat about Israel.
Arneoker
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Jul 24 2006, 02:03 AM)
Denmark had colonies?  I think you are confusing it with Holland.
*

Actually at one time Denmark ruled most of Scandanavia, and had Norway in particular for quite a long time. I believe that the Danes founded Iceland, and they control Greenland now. Over a thousand years ago there was even a time when the King of Denmark was also the King of England.
Marine
QUOTE(beamer619 @ Jul 23 2006, 11:13 PM)
It's unreal how "supportive" our government is of Israel's excessive force.  Maybe it's because we admire that sort of behavior.
*

I'd admire anyone killing hezbollah
Arneoker
QUOTE(Marine @ Jul 24 2006, 11:24 AM)
I'd admire anyone killing hezbollah
*

What if they kill many others besides and thus engender sympathy for Hezbollah and similar groups, and also thereby convince more people to join and support such groups, and who then go on to, well, kill a lot more people?
progressivephoenix
Thanks for the info, but I think that 70's and I were both thinking about the more recent colonies that many European nations had from the 16th to 20th centuries. Also, my sources in the Danish embassy say that any atrocities committed 1000 years ago were in fact false flag operations committed by Swedes. I am awaiting comment from the Swedish embassy.


QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 24 2006, 07:06 AM)
Actually at one time Denmark ruled most of Scandanavia, and had Norway in particular for quite a long time.  I believe that the Danes founded Iceland, and they control Greenland now.  Over a thousand years ago there was even a time when the King of Denmark was also the King of England.
*
progressivephoenix
Israel only wants to keep the US government and the Jewish lobby in America happy. Make that half the Jewish lobby. A lot of Jews in America don't like what Israel is doing but they don't have a big bucks organization like AIPAC to get themselves heard.

And yes, Israel has a plan for survival for every conceivable circumstance.
QUOTE(70sliberalism @ Jul 24 2006, 06:39 AM)
Why would Israel care what anyone else thinks when it comes to survival?

But they do care what we think, because we are very important to their survival. I am sure they could find a way of surviving without us, but they would be in a more desperate situation and that would be worse than what we have now wouldn't it?

If anyone thinks Israel deopesn't have plans/fall back plan  on how to survive without US aid they don't know diddly squat about Israel.
*
Marine
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 24 2006, 09:36 AM)
What if they kill many others besides and thus engender sympathy for Hezbollah and similar groups, and also thereby convince more people to join and support such groups, and who then go on to, well, kill a lot more people?
*

If they support hezbollah they are hezbollah.

I think a good solution would be for hezbollah to expedite their journey to paradise by slitting each other's throats. You will not get sympathy from me for hezbollah or hezbollah symphasizers being killed.
Arneoker
QUOTE(Marine @ Jul 24 2006, 12:59 PM)
If they support hezbollah they are hezbollah.

I think a good solution would be for hezbollah to expedite their journey to paradise by slitting each other's throats.  You will not get sympathy from me for hezbollah or hezbollah symphasizers being killed.
*

Who is asking you to have sympathy for them? And how will your lack of sympathy defeat them? Do you think that they are hanging to hear about such sympathy?

And I am not saying don't kill Hezbollah or Hezbollah sympathizers. I am saying, Israel ought to avoid killing 10 bystanders for every Hezbollah member, such bystanders, such as six-year old girls, not necessarily being Hezbollah sympathizers, thus creating more Hezbollah sympathizers and outright supporters out of those who might be on the fence, who will go ahead and kill more people (or support such efforts), before getting killed themselves. And good luck selling your solution to Hezbollah members who would actually have to carry it out.

So what will your lack of sympathy accomplish here?
Snuffysmith
GRADE F -- FOR US PUBLIC DIPLOMACY -- YET AGAIN PATRICIA KUSHLIS (WHIRLED VIEW, JULY 23)
http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview...der_w.html#more (scroll down link for item)

FALLACIES (AMERICANHANSARD BLOG, JULY 23): America needs an unforgettable act of public diplomacy -- Rice getting off the State Department jet in Tel Aviv is not what much of the world is looking for.
http://americanhansard.livejournal.com/365.html
SEE ALSO
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Rice.html
progressivephoenix
Hezbollah is the only security force in southern lebanon. They run the schools and charities. If you live in southern lebanon, you need Hezbollah. Even if you don't like them, you can't escape them. If they want to hide their rockets in your neighborhood, you can't stop them. For this accident of geography, you deserve to have an Israeli bomb dropped on your head?

QUOTE(Marine @ Jul 24 2006, 08:59 AM)
If they support hezbollah they are hezbollah.

I think a good solution would be for hezbollah to expedite their journey to paradise by slitting each other's throats.  You will not get sympathy from me for hezbollah or hezbollah symphasizers being killed.
*
Snuffysmith
At the risk of violating my own rules about participating in threads, I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts.

1. The IRA issue settled down when the IRA was invited to come to the United States and discuss issues preparatory to George Mitchell's oversight of a peace effort. Talking to terrorists is what it was, but maybe we should be doing that get a better understanding of what needs to be done to resolve issues. Seemed to work in Ireland. I know this sounds blasphemous. But everything else we are doing isn't working. See:

GRADE F -- FOR US PUBLIC DIPLOMACY -- YET AGAIN PATRICIA KUSHLIS (WHIRLED VIEW, JULY 23)
http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview...der_w.html#more (scroll down link for item)

FALLACIES (AMERICANHANSARD BLOG, JULY 23): America needs an unforgettable act of public diplomacy -- Rice getting off the State Department jet in Tel Aviv is not what much of the world is looking for.
http://americanhansard.livejournal.com/365.html
SEE ALSO
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Rice.html

2. Rumor has it that whatever diplomatic approach we take, its rigged or fixed to ensure Republican reelection of the Congress and the Presidency in 2008. Sorry to be such a pessimist, (and no I'm not a conspiracy theorist nut).
Snuffysmith
WAR OF IRONY - DANIEL GALLINGTON (WASHINGTON TIMES, JULY 22): We could effectively influence the very young in the Middle East by, inter alia, (1) re-establishing a United States Information Agency (USIA), but kept separate and distinct from the State Department and -- above all -- the CIA (2) establishing regional cultural and media centers in selected countries and make such centers the essence of the U.S. presence in these countries.
http://www.washtimes.com/func