Plane crash:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14465000/

Compare with 9/11 Pentagon and Pennsylvania photos.

Yeah, its very, very odd.
Just like your signature mrjim about exit polls

Hundreds of plane crashes over the years all look about the same

None but the Pentagon and PA ones looked like the others...odd
how just those 2 were so different.
And the 2 WTC ones bringing down 4 buildings...

yup. They think we are stupid.

Apparently we are -- most of us.

That's amazing. I wonder why the airplane didn't desintegrate? I thought all airplanes desintegrated when they crashed.

Isn't it?

They can promote their bull for 9-11 til doomsday, and it is so obvious the "offical"
bull is bull.

That is why WE don't need proof. Proof is in the millions of photographs and pages of evidence from every other plane crash in the history of the world where none went down that way

Same as the exit polls in 2004

where is the plane in this picture?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1937976.stm


I think we have another conspiracy on our hands

I watched an F-4 crash at Cherry Point in 1973. It came straight down from about 30,000 feet and plowed in at a 90 degree angle to the ground.

Debris? Nada. Just a hole in the ground.

Not a fair comparison. The picture in your link shows a building hit by a light plane, which probably either penetrated the building or fell below where the picture is cut off, or both.

I am talking about open fields and huge jetliners.

So if the plane supposedly disentegrated on hitting the Pentagon, this picture would be of a dust mite.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Scroll down the page to see a relatively large dust mite.

yawn.

the first five posts say it all. No further posting is needed.

Case closed.

Proove 9-11 happened the way they said it happened.

You have photos?

An F-4, though a substantial fighter jet, is still a lot smaller than an airliner. It is also a lot more compact, with no engines on the wings. And if it flew straight down, this is quite different than a plane skimming across a field before hitting a building.

An F-4 is a lightweight fighter craft. You cannot even compare it to a crashing boeing 757 which weighs approximately 200 tons.

So if someone in Arlington, Virginia reported that he or she voted for Kerry on November, 2004, that person cannot be doubted.

But if that same person saw a passenger plane head towards the Pentagon September, 2001, they cannot be believed.

Hey Arneoker -- I read the Snopes article.

Let me ask you just one question --

In EVERY airplane crash I can remember (except 4 happening on 9/11) the FAA painstakingly RECONSTRUCTED the planes to find out exactly what happened. The crash sites were guarded jealously like crime scenes.

Did this happen at the Pentagon? Did it happen in Pennsylvania?

I bring this up because the Snopes article "debunked" a myth about the govt. hiding evidence by spreading gravel all over the lawn. Snopes said this was done to help haul away debris. Well, what about the friggin "crime scene" that was destroyed in the process?

Just out of curiosity, can you tell me who owns snopes?

There were multiple eyewitnesses reporting a lot of different things -- typical for any crime where things happen really fast.

This was for a pentagon comparison only.

I guess everyone knows that only light planes penetrate walls, while jetliners leave big debris piles right in front of the building.

So when we hear different stories, with 90% saying that it was a passenger plane, and 10% saying that it was something else, then of course we believe the 10%.

After all, National Airport is almost a whole mile from the Pentagon, so people around there wouldn't necessarily be familiar with what a passenger plane looks like.

Depends on the building. The Pentagon was X feet thick concrete. The skyscraper wall was largely glass, wasn't it?

Okay -- say the jetliner penetrated the pentagon wall. Where is the outline of the wings, or at least the point where those two big engines impacted?

And why aren't there pictures of the debris inside the building? Or is that classified?

Who says 90% of the witnesses saw a passenger plane?

And I'll invert your argument. Maybe people around there wouldn't be familiar with what a cruise missle looks like, and their minds just filled in the gaps with what they were familiar with -- all those jets they saw everyday from the airport.

If the investigators didn't think it would degrade evidence, and there reasons of safety to do it, they would have allowed it.

I guess compared to a 757 it would be consider a light weight aircraft.

Wingspan - 38 ft., 5 in. (11.7 m)
Length - 63 ft. (19.2 m)
Height - 16 ft. (5 m)
Wing area - 530 sq. ft. (49 m2)
Weight - 29,500 lbs. empty

I don't say its exactly that percentage, but from what I've seen (maybe I'll have some time later to find it) that is how the testimony went. Plus I live in the area, I've heard things second and third-hand from people, all of it about the plane.

Do cruise missiles have wings like passenger planes? How do they compare in terms of size?

People also have testified to seeing remnants of the plane inside the Pentagon.

That was the "Phantom" wasn't it?

Why did they discontinue that plane? Seems like a devastating ordnance delivery system.

Inside photos here
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pe...e_evidence.html

Also some nice overshots comparing the size of the damaged section with a 757.

It had an inexplicable tendency to disingrate on impact.

I believe the F-18 or F-16 replaced the F-4.

FOr comparison, at anyone time, about 10 to 20 percent of the population has a diagnosed mental illness or chemical dependency. Not that all who dissent are mentally ill (I am NOT saying that, so please dont say I am), but just to point out that it may be difficult to get more than 80% of the people to agree about ANYTHING.

Some of the witness were licensed pilots. You'd think they know a plane when they see one.

Things did happen fast, and planes hitting the Pentagon are not a normal occurence. I think that we could expect that perfectly normal people who had only a brief look may have gotten notions different from that of the vast majority.

Count me in 'cause most of this 9/11 conspiracy stuff is so-o-o-o off the edge of the planet.

Luvya all, but I don't look real good in tinfoil...

Cruise missiles look enough like planes that some people might think it a plane if they don't have time to look carefully.

Even a lot of the 9/11 revisionist/dissenters have poo-pooed the "It wasn't a passenger plane that hit the Pentagon" theory, some opining that this is nothing but a story planted by the government to tar the dissenters as a bunch of wackos.

DOn't know.

How much money does Michael Ruppert charge to join his website?

So let's take an upper bound of 20% (which isn't all that unrealistic, being that the crime scene was near Washington D.C.). Now, what are the odds that all 90% reporting a 757 were in the 20% whacko category?

That looks like a passenger plane like a chicken looks like a goose.

Exactly my point. Awhile back, we were in a park and a bunch of wild Canadian geese were poking around on the lawn, and my kid said "look at those chickens".

Yeah, but I can tell you who owns Michael Rupperts website.

these people sound like they know a goose from a chicken, especially the first guy.

Donald "Tim" Timmerman, a pilot: "I live on the 16th floor, overlooking the Pentagon ... and so I have quite a panorama. ... It was a Boeing 757, American Airlines, no question."

Richard Benedetto: "It was an American Airlines airplane, I could see it very clearly."
Omar Campo, a Salvadorean" "It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane. I was cutting grass and it came in screaming over my head."
Joseph Candelario: "I noticed a large aircraft flying low towards the White House. This aircraft then made a sharp turn and flew towards the Pentagon and seconds later crashed into it."
James Cissell: "I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower. ... Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board."
Dennis Clem: "There was a commercial airliner that said American Airliners over the side of it flying at just above treetop height at full speed headed for the Pentagon."
Michael Dobbs: "It was an American airlines airliner. I was looking out the window and saw it come right over the Navy annex at a slow angle."
Penny Elgas: "... the plane was directly over the cars in front of my car .... I remember recognizing it as an American Airlines plane -- I could see the windows and the color stripes."
Cheryl Hammond: "We saw the big American Airlines plane and started running."
Joe Harrington: "... one of my guys pointed to an American Airlines airplane 20 feet high over Washington Blvd."
Albert Hemphill: "The aircraft, look[ed] to be either a 757 or Airbus."
Terrance Kean: "I saw this very, very large passenger jet. It just plowed right into the side of the Pentagon."
William Lagasse: "It was close enough that I could see the windows and the blinds had been pulled down. I read American Airlines on it. ... I saw the aircraft above my head about 80 feet above the ground."
Robert Leonard: "I ... saw a large commercial aircraft aiming for the Pentagon."
Lincoln Liebner: "I saw this large American Airlines passenger jet coming in fast and low."
Elaine McCusker: "I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating."
Mitch Mitchell: "I ... saw, coming straight down the road at us, a huge jet plane clearly with American Airlines written on it .... It crossed about 100 feet in front of us and at about 20 feet altitude and we watched it go in. It struck the Pentagon."
Terry Morin: "The plane had a silver body with red and blue stripes down the fuselage. I believed at the time that it belonged to American Airlines."
Christopher Munsey: "I couldn't believe what I was now seeing to my right: a silver, twin-engine American Airlines jetliner gliding almost noiselessly over the Navy Annex, fast, low and straight toward the Pentagon ...."
Vin Narayanan: "I looked up to my left and saw an American Airlines jet flying right at me. The jet roared over my head, clearing my car by about 25 feet."
John O'Keefe: "I don't know whether I saw or heard it first -- this silver plane; I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet ...."
Steve Riskus: "I was close enough (about 100 feet or so) that I could see the ‘American Airlines' logo on the tail as it headed towards the building .... I clearly saw the ‘AA' logo with the eagle in the middle."
James Ryan: "I see an American Airlines plane, silver plane, I could see AA on the tail. ... The plane was low enough that I could see the windows of the plane. I could see every detail of the plane. In my head I have ingrained forever this image of every detail of that plane. It was a silver plane, American Airlines plane, and I recognized it immediately as a passenger plane."
Joel Sucherman: "... looking straight ahead there was a jet, what looked to be an American Airlines jet, probably a 757, and it came screaming across the highway ... [and] hit the west side of the Pentagon."

Mike Walter: "I saw this plane, this jet, an American Airlines jet, coming. ... It went right there and slammed right into the Pentagon. I saw the big ‘AA' on the side."
Ian Wyatt: "I duck, I look up, it looks like a silver American Airlines, twin-engine plane and then boom."

There are also many quotes from military personnel including a military pilot an an air traffice controller, but I have not included those quotes becasue the conspiracy minded will claim they are all lying on orders from the government.

mr jim

as always, you are correct

others hem and haw and distract, but never disprove that it wasn't what you said

That is the way those do it

They present strawmen theories that don't hold up, like nothing the bushfamily ever does

Nothing at all

They basically tell you this is the version, up yours, we don't need the proof we are telling because, well, I(W) am the president, you are nothing

Who you gonna beleive? Some 60s longhaired insane people or me the president

case closed

All eyewitness came to the media
The media did not find them
They volunteered
MEANING---They are plants to give the official spin

Why they know its official spin before it even happens

Case closed. Bush lied. He failed the test.

Progressive:

This long list of eyewitnesses -- any chance somebody in the NSA could have gone through a telephone book, plucked out names, and written down "testimony"?

... but it's about the size of a Piper Cub

AGM-86C/D Conventional Air Launched Cruise Missile

Specifications
Primary Function: Air-to-ground strategic cruise missile
Contractor: Boeing Defense & Space Group
Aerojet - CALCM warhead
Guidance Contractors: Litton Guidance & Control, Rockwell Collins Avionics, and Interstate Electronics Corp.
Power Plant: Williams International Corp. F-107-WR-101 turbofan engine
Thrust: 600 pounds
Length: 20 feet, 9 inches
Weight: 3,250 pounds
Diameter: 24.5 inches
Wingspan: 12 feet

...more like a sparrow and a goose.

More like a woodpecker and a seagull.

And when my nephew was little he looked at a picture of a woocock or quail and referred to it as a duck.

But when you get a little older you can make distinctions between such things.

Even a quick look at a cruise missile would strike people as a very, very funny-looking plane.

Maybe no one was looking at one of the biggest landmarks of the area at just that time.

Without hemming and hawing let me say that this being a passenger plane which hit the Pentagon is one of the things that I am most sure of.



Like who are you going to believe, your own eyes?



How many times have you said that you don't need proof?



I would believe those that saw these things.





I think the odds are that you have nothing to back this idea of yours but your own speculation.



I think that they know what they see.



These other people aren't Bush.

arneoker-How do you know who these people are?

That and Lisa Beamer's phony story will get you a cup of coffee if you add 2.00 to the bill

all anyone knows is what they tell you. They are one side of the story, so they have ulterior motives to make their side the truth.
They are pros. Playing mind games. Forever.

The question is methodologically flawed. There is no evidence that NSA did that, but the question implies that if I can't actually PROVE that NSA did it, then NSA must have done it.

Failure to even acknowledge their could be a problem with questions like these is the biggest difference between the 911 dissenters and the "brainwashed masses" such as myself.