What we have here is a failure to communicate. It is a fact that we have a long history of our government and our military doing things that are contrary to our moral standards, one of the worst is the march of the “Bonus Army” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/trm203.html this is one of our militaries darkest moments, D Macarthur and D Eisenhower are guilty of war crimes against American Veterans.

Some our friends here believe the misbehavior of our troops while in a combat theater has been extremely rare. To some extent I agree, and at the same time I know that many of our GI’s were involved in questionable behavior.
While riding on top of a M-113, cruising up the highway at 35 MPH, the convoy meets a cluster of vehicles going the other way. For sport, a man picks up a can of C-rations, “beans and franks” and tosses it at the oncoming bus. Wham! Right through the windshield and in the face of the bus driver. Does this rise to the level of “war crime”? While on patrol a group of soldiers takes fire from the area around the village market. The response is immediate, .30 cal, automatic weapons and grenade launchers find the market in an effort to suppress the incoming enemy fire. The end result is a market that has been all but leveled; civilian casualties are in the dozens and no enemies were found. Here is a scenario that I witnessed many times; it’s dark out, we are entering a small village and we need to illuminate the area. The sport was to see if one could shoot a hand held Para shoot flare through the front door of the biggest hooch in the village, thus providing light and of course the home would be lost, sometimes with the occupants still in it.
I personally witnessed many questionable activities; “rape, pillage and burn” was the “Cavalry” motto. My point is this; to think we could put a half a million troops into a small country and have them all behave with excellence is not realistic. Most of these issues do not rise to the level of “war crime” but to deny the bad behavior is crazy, and many atrocities did happen. A soldier harassing a civilian was so common, people didn’t notice and even today the veterans don’t see this as having been a problem. It didn’t mean anything to destroy a home, family, farm animal or even their place of worship.
The question is, what if anything should be said or done at this point in time? I’m seeing some of this same mindset being played out in Iraq.
Here are some links to further the discussion; http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2004/0...s-indochina.htm
http://www.vietquoc.com/whylost.htm
http://www.altpr.org/modules.php?op=modloa...&artid=5&page=1
http://hnn.us/articles/1802.html war crimes you never heard of.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...22.storygallery
http://911review.org/Wget/www.homeusers.pr...on/v1tribun.htm

Probaly not a war crime for throwing a can of beans and weanies Vaughn but every SNCO I ever worked for would have put me in the brig had I or anyone else working for them done something like that.

I'll agree with you about the shameful treatment given to the WW1 Vets.

John Wright Patman the democratic congressman from Cass County, Texas introduced the Veteran's Bonus Bill which mandated the immediate cash payment of the endowment promised to the Soldiers who fought in the Great War.

In May 1932, 10,000 ex-soldiers marched on Washington in an attempt to persuade Congress to pass the Patman Bill. When they arrived in the capital the Bonus Marchers camped at Anacostia Flats, an area that had formerly been used as an army recruiting centre. They built temporary homes on the site and threatened to stay there until they received payment of money granted to them by Congress.

When Congress defeated the Bonus Bill in June the veterans were ordered to leave Washington. When they refused to do so they were driven forcibly from their camps on 28th July, by troops under the command of General Douglas MacArthur. MacArthur, controversially used tanks, four troops of cavalry with drawn sabers, and infantry with fixed bayonets, on the ex-serviceman.

Did you see that documentary about the last hours of WW1 Vaughn? Truly shameful tratment of American Soldiers and Marines I thought. The armistice was to go into effect on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918. The armistice was signed at 5 and was to take effect six hours later. The General in their last quest for glory ordered the boys in the trenchs over the top to assault the German trenches during those 6 hours before the armistice took effect. To take territory that if they had waited a couple of hours they could have walked over and have without firing a shot. It killed over 2,200 American boys and wounded over 10,000.

After the war congress investigated it but politics got in the way. Seems a democrat was president then and the democrats in congress felt if anyone got disciplined it might discredit Woodrow Wilson. I think some high ranking Generals should have been drummed from the services over that one.

Throwing a can of “beans and weenies”! History says this;
By the end of the rout:
• Two veterans had been shot and killed.
• An 11 week old baby was in critical condition resulting from shock from gas exposure.
• Two infants had died from gas asphyxiation.
• An 11 year old boy was partially blinded by tear gas.
• One bystander was shot in the shoulder.
• One veteran's ear was severed by a Cavalry saber.
• One veteran was stabbed in the hip with a bayonet.
• At least twelve police were injured by the veterans.
• Over 1,000 men, women, and children were exposed to the tear gas, including police, reporters, residents of Washington D.C., and ambulance drivers.
These are the facts, do we have a difference of interpretation or a difference of perspective?
It is precisely this kind of problem that creates skepticism for thinking Americans and it does impact us today.

Mr marine; the reason I brought this up is because I think we Americans have a tendency to become complacent about important moments that still impact us today. I think of it as another way to avoid “my” dose of cool-aid. We are an imperfect society, most of us strive to be better. Liberal or conservative, if we remember our imperfect past if will help us sharpen our collective vision of the future.

Do you know why the Vets were in Washington Vaughn? Do you know what the government reasoned when they decided they had to be dispersed? Do you know why the Vets needed their annuity early? If you don't know why the lessons from the past are sort of wasted, eh?

I was a history major at UNM, we spent many hours on this.
Maybe it’s hard for you to imagine, soldiers and marines returning from a war to be set off on their own to deal with the many problems combat veterans are typically exposed too. WW1 was as horrific as it gets, gas and chemical warfare after which their vets had nothing to fall back on, the VA had just been established in 1917 and didn’t offer anything beyond a place to die. These great heroes didn’t expect anything either, except for the Bonus promised. What they got marine, was the “Depression”, the resources they shared was their camaraderie, they had nothing else. Read your history marine, veterans should NEVER be treated as second class citizens. The fact that you somehow think these vets were out of line by asking their government to help them out is a sign of your lack of real life experience.
I can’t imagine the Iraqi vets coming home to be told there is nothing here for them, crippled or not, can you? Can you justify any idea that concludes with a military attack on civilians because of their opposing opinions on what is right or wrong. You believe it’s a good thing to “fix” bayonets and attack innocent veterans because they are trying to keep from starving. You believe Macarthur and Eisenhower are heroes, I believe they are “felons”, for the crimes committed against the many heroes of WW1 during the “March of the Bonus Army! This one can not be spun marine.

Good, you were a History major. That will solve the problem where I thought you didn't understand what the Bonus Army was about or that time in American History was like.

Now tell me you don't have a reading disability or show me where you see I wrote doing to the bonus Army was anything like what you just described?

You have a problem with making things up Vaughn.

I would suggest you go back over this thread and read it for what it says, not what you think. Maybe you are just upset I didn't follow the script you had preconceived, eh?

I insanely thought I could find you and I on the same page marine, I see that’s not going to happen.
I come along and post a reference about an important moment in military history and you concerned yourself with my knowing the subject??? not so much the subject it’s self.
You phrased the question so if you didn’t want to hear an opinion about “sort of wasted, eh” then why ask’?
Reality sucks huh, let me know when you get a grip.

your quote; "Probaly not a war crime for throwing a can of beans and weanies Vaughn but every SNCO I ever worked for would have put me in the brig had I or anyone else working for them done something like that"

your quote; "After the war congress investigated it but politics got in the way. Seems a democrat was president then and the democrats in congress felt if anyone got disciplined it might discredit Woodrow Wilson. I think some high ranking Generals should have been drummed from the services over that one"

How do these quotes relate to the original post?

Well Vaughn, I had agreed with you that I thought the way they treated the Vets in the Bonus Army was pretty shameful.

You had posted an episode where someone you knew threw a can of c-rats through a bus windshield; my comment in return was I never served with a Staff NCO who would have let me get away with doing something like that. I would have expected if I threw a can of c-rats at a bus windshield that after I had got my ass kicked I would be standing in the Major's office trying to explain why I shouldn't be going to the Brig.

Now, for the last item, you sounded like someone interested in history so I related to you another episode where I think American Soldiers and Marines got the short end of the stick. Congress investigated because they got hundreds of letters from Mothers, Fathers, Wife's and children wanting to know why their loved one had to die for nothing. Congress was all set to officially reprimand some Generals from Pershing on down but it happen to be an election year in 1920 and they felt the republicans would get a little political mileage out of it so the democrats in congress blocked releasing the report. Politics suck, eh?

I always got a grip Vaughn.