Vista Security Flaws Uncovered

One full month before Microsoft Windows Vista ships to consumers, hackers and security experts have already discovered six serious flaws in the operating system. Vista was made available to business customers one month ago. Since then, the experts have been throwing everything they can come up with at this build of Vista hoping to discover possible vulnerabilities before the general public starts running the OS on their home machines.

John Markoff of The New York Times profiled the security software firm Determina and its tests to uncover exploits in Vista.

Here are some of the flaws, paraphrased from the NYT story:

• * Determina discovered a bug in Internet Explorer 7 that allows malware to be surreptitiously installed on a user's computer if he visits a "booby-trapped site" while browsing the web.
• * Determina also discovered a way to disable a network's Microsoft Exchange server by sending an infected email.
• * An unnamed Russian programmer discovered a way to hack his user permissions on all Windows systems on a corporate network using a Vista exploit. This is particularly dangerous, since a hacker could use his increased privileges to circumvent IE7's built-in sandbox controls.
• * Tokyo-based company Trend Micro has discovered a hacker on a Japanese message board offering to sell information about a Vista security flaw for $50,000.

Flaws are to be expected, especially in something as widely used and anticipated as a new version of Windows. Microsoft will most likely be releasing patches constantly during Vista's first six months on consumer desktops. Either way, if you're planning on running Vista right away, invest in some security software -- and use Firefox!

Flaws Are Detected in Microsoft’s Vista
Siggi Bucher/Reuters

By JOHN MARKOFF
Published: December 25, 2006

SAN FRANCISCO, Dec. 24 — Microsoft is facing an early crisis of confidence in the quality of its Windows Vista operating system as computer security researchers and hackers have begun to find potentially serious flaws in the system that was released to corporate customers late last month.

On Dec. 15, a Russian programmer posted a description of a flaw that makes it possible to increase a user’s privileges on all of the company’s recent operating systems, including Vista. And over the weekend a Silicon Valley computer security firm said it had notified Microsoft that it had also found that flaw, as well as five other vulnerabilities, including one serious error in the software code underlying the company’s new Internet Explorer 7 browser.

The browser flaw is particularly troubling because it potentially means that Web users could become infected with malicious software simply by visiting a booby-trapped site. That would make it possible for an attacker to inject rogue software into the Vista-based computer, according to executives at Determina, a company based in Redwood City, Calif., that sells software intended to protect against operating system and other vulnerabilities.

Determina is part of a small industry of companies that routinely pore over the technical details of software applications and operating systems looking for flaws. When flaws in Microsoft products are found they are reported to the software maker, which then produces fixes called patches. Microsoft has built technology into its recent operating systems that makes it possible for the company to fix its software automatically via the Internet.

Despite Microsoft assertions about the improved reliability of Vista, many in the industry are taking a wait-and-see approach. Microsoft’s previous operating system, Windows XP, required two “service packs” issued over a number of years to substantially improve security, and new flaws are still routinely discovered by outside researchers.

On Friday, a Microsoft executive posted a comment on a company security information Web site stating the company was “closely monitoring” the vulnerability described by the Russian Web site. It permits the privileges of a standard user account in Vista and other versions of Windows to be increased, permitting control of all of the operations of the computer. In Unix and modern Windows systems, users are restricted in the functions they can perform, and complete power is restricted to certain administrative accounts.

“Currently we have not observed any public exploitation or attack activity regarding this issue,” wrote Mike Reavey, operations manager of the Microsoft Security Response Center. “While I know this is a vulnerability that impacts Windows Vista, I still have every confidence that Windows Vista is our most secure platform to date.”

On Saturday, Nicole Miller, a Microsoft spokeswoman, said the company was also investigating the reported browser flaw and that it was not aware of any attacks attempting to use the vulnerability.

Microsoft has spent millions branding the Vista operating system as the most secure product it has produced, and it is counting on Vista to help turn the tide against a wave of software attacks now plaguing Windows-based computers.

Vista is critical to Microsoft’s reputation. Despite an almost four-and-half-year campaign on the part of the company, and the best efforts of the computer security industry, the threat from harmful computer software continues to grow. Criminal attacks now range from programs that steal information from home and corporate PCs to growing armies of slave computers that are wreaking havoc on the commercial Internet.

Although Vista, which will be available on consumer PCs early next year, has been extensively tested, it is only now being exposed to the challenges of the open Internet.

“I don’t think people should become complacent,” said Nand Mulchandani, a vice president at Determina. “When vendors say a program has been completely rewritten, it doesn’t mean that it’s more secure from the get-go. My expectation is we will see a whole rash of Vista bugs show up in six months or a year.”

The Determina executives said that by itself, the browser flaw that was reported to Microsoft could permit damage like the theft of password information and the attack of other computers.

However, one of the principal security advances of Internet Explorer 7 is a software “sandbox” that is intended to limit damage even if a malicious program is able to subvert the operation of the browser. That should limit the ability of any attacker to reach other parts of the Vista operating system, or to overwrite files.

However, when coupled with the ability of the first flaw that permits the change in account privileges, it might then be possible to circumvent the sandbox controls, said Alexander Sotirov, a Determina security researcher. In that case it would make it possible to alter files and potentially permanently infect a target computer. This kind of attack has yet to be proved, he acknowledged.

The Determina researchers said they had notified Microsoft of four other flaws they had discovered, including a bug that would make it possible for an attacker to repeatedly disable a Microsoft Exchange mail server simply by sending the program an infected e-mail message.

Last week, the chief technology officer of Trend Micro, a computer security firm in Tokyo, told several computer news Web sites that he had discovered an offer on an underground computer discussion forum to sell information about a security flaw in Windows Vista for $50,000. Over the weekend a spokesman for Trend Micro said that the company had not obtained the information, and as a result could not confirm the authenticity of the offer.

Many computer security companies say that there is a lively underground market for information that would permit attackers to break in to systems via the Internet.

Due to the complexity of a retrofit, we won't experience Vista until we get a new computer. Hopefully, by that time the bugs will be worked out. Otherwise, vendors will simply ignore Vista and ship XP which is not all that bad.

Conversations about Vista have been coming up since last June regarding Vista. We do have a version of it installed on one pc in our community lab.

Here are a couple os snips :

How many versions of Vista?

The Home category will have four products, Windows Vista Starter, Home Basic, Home Premium, and Ultimate Editions. In the Business category, there will be Windows Vista Small Business, Professional, and Enterprise Editions. Because of the number of versions, users may become confused about what to use.

Vista readiness may not mean that your computer can handle one of the higher end versions so beware. A Windows Vista upgrade advisor can be download from Microsoft to check your computer for readiness and will help you identify which version is right for you.


Upgrade to Vista or not? How long can you use WINXP? Versions of XP?

If you want to be on the cutting edge, then plan on installing Windows Vista as soon as it comes out. My preference is to wait a while and let others experience the bugs. After I read a lot of positive review, then I will consider changing operating systems.

The question was asked about how long you could use Windows XP. The answer. As long as there is support available for it.

end snips

Wait a year or so and if you MUST replace an existing pc, and it comes with XP plus a coupon to get Vista, be sure you investigate which version the coupon will get for you.


lenal

Conversations about Vista have been coming up since last June regarding the new MS/OS. We do have a version of it installed on one pc in our community lab.

Here are a couple os snips :

How many versions of Vista?

The Home category will have four products, Windows Vista Starter, Home Basic, Home Premium, and Ultimate Editions. In the Business category, there will be Windows Vista Small Business, Professional, and Enterprise Editions. Because of the number of versions, users may become confused about what to use.

Vista readiness may not mean that your computer can handle one of the higher end versions so beware. A Windows Vista upgrade advisor can be download from Microsoft to check your computer for readiness and will help you identify which version is right for you.


Upgrade to Vista or not? How long can you use WINXP? Versions of XP?

If you want to be on the cutting edge, then plan on installing Windows Vista as soon as it comes out. My preference is to wait a while and let others experience the bugs. After I read a lot of positive review, then I will consider changing operating systems.

The question was asked about how long you could use Windows XP. The answer. As long as there is support available for it.

end snips

Wait a year or so and if you MUST replace an existing pc, and it comes with XP plus a coupon to get Vista, be sure you investigate which version the coupon will get for you.


lenal

I did just get a Mac due to the Windows security concerns. Macs are more difficult for me to use, though. Probably because my whole computer experience has been on Windows. Probably with time will get better. I'd like to switch almost entirely to Mac secondary to security concerns. Nice to hear I made the right decision on this one. I thought about going with Vista but had a feeling it was going to be like Millenium. Rolling eyes... What a nightmare that one was. Having to manually turn the computer off every few minutes to re-start it because it froze again.

Only problem I can see with Mac is most of the software is for Windows programs. Also iTunes is over-rated. I can't copy the songs onto another computer and my CD burner is broken - as usual! I mean how to you fix that. I don't like the way they lock you into one computer with iTunes. You can get authorized to open the account from a different computer but forget about getting all the songs and tv shows you paid for on the first computer sent to the second computer. And you also can't transfer them via the iPod itself. Oh, and if you upgrade your version of iTunes you lose everything then have to wait for 3 hours to get assistance, then have to buy their help and then still doesn't work or have to have them send you everything again with now two or three copies of everything and STILL doesn't work...

So, what is the reason to "authorize" the 5 computers on the iTunes account, anyway if you can't transfer songs to other computers you use?????

Gabrielle: I let SonPie reply to your concerns below. (He is a Mac Specialist at The Apple Store when not in college) He said he would be more than happy to help you get accustomed to your new Mac.



For example which applications? Most of the software available for PC is available for Mac or there are similar replacement programs available. Only very few niche markets have software limited to Windows and even then you have the option to use Parallels to run your Windows apps.


Why can't you copy the music onto another computer? Theres nothing stopping you, other than possibly a broken CD burner, which isn't iTunes' fault.


Again, you are free to copy the music and use it, as long as both computers are authorized. You can't use the iPod to copy the music because of piracy concerns. If Johnny takes his 80GB iPod with 20,000 songs on it over to Bobby's house and copies all the music to Bobby's computer then no one would ever buy music (even now most people don't).


You don't lose everything when you updated iTunes. I've had iTunes since version 1.0 (we're on 7.0.2 now) and I've never lost a song.


Again, you're free to copy your music as you please.

It sounds like most of your confusion revolves around iTunes. Although there are some basic limitations to prevent mass-piracy, iTunes is very open about what it lets you do with the files on your computer. You can't blame Apple for not giving you a "Copy this to another computer" option since they must work with the record companies to help stop piracy.

If you think iTunes is an over-rated program then I suspect you haven't used many of the other programs available. iTunes is wonderfully rich in features and ease of use, especially considering its free and doesn't install spyware on your computer. Also, Apple's iTunes department doesn't charge for support. They don't even have a telephone number, so I don't know who you would have been talking (or on hold with) with for 3 hours. Technically, you're lucky they sent you all your music and videos again, as technically you aren't entitled to another copy. (If you lost a DVD while moving, would Best Buy give you another copy?)

Sorry about the directness with which SonPie spoke- what can I say ? He is 20.
But if you have any tech questions about the Mac, he would be glad to help. Of course, Noonan and Maus and others probably can, too.

Hey, no problem. I like direct. Always have. Now, up to answer his post.

Does SonPie do house calls? Will he work for hours for beer and a sandwich? Can Mr. and Mrs. Pie make more like him and start a cottage industry?

He does house calls but not for beer or sandwiches, he says. And Mr & Mrs Pie are now too old and tired from raising SonPie to even contemplate more !

When I was looking for children's software many games weren't on Mac. Also, I wanted to get the Rosetta Stone software and I'm not sure if they take Mac or not. That's what I mean by software problems. As far as Parallels I will have to get that. I got Microsoft Office for Mac. I guess I thought that was Parallels. Didn't know. Now I do. I'll look up the applications that weren't compatible with Mac. Also, got a wireless keyboard but that doesn't work on this version of the software. Not sure what version I have.



Well, you're 20 years old and work for Mac. I'm 39 and this is the 2nd day I've used a Mac computer in my life - if you don't count brief trial of friend's computer in college. What I mean is when I sign on my office computer and try to get the songs I've paid for on my home computer on my office computer I'm not able to do that. If you've got a broken CD burner (as many people with small children are like to do) you can't do anything about transferring the songs to your other computers. Can you? I bought a backup memory device. Saved all the songs to that but I won't be able to put them on a new computer if I replace my old PC. So, then I lose all the songs and the $ I spent on them.

Unless, you know how to solve that problem. Maybe I need to use the portable CD burner from the office and then burn the music to CD's and then I can take those CD's and load them onto the office computer. And if I get a new computer then I can transfer the songs to the new computer? DEEEEP SIGH.

.

Actually, I can blame Apple for not letting me "copy" my songs to my other computers. And I do. I've spent quite a bit on iTunes and I believe I ought to be able to transfer these songs. I'm not talking about online sharing. But we've been able to copy casette tapes and then CD's to our friends. They keep making blank music CD's and blank cassettes so we can transfer this information. This is very different from loading a song onto Napster and having 10,000 strangers download it for free.

I've downloaded songs from Wal-Mart before and they are easily transferrable. There's another online site where you can download a song and listen to the entire song 5-10 times for free before you have to purchase it. I have to find that site again. I just think Apple's iTunes is too restrictive. I'm not talking Napster - just MUCH improved ability to transfer songs between computers and if I know somebody I believe I ought to be able to share my songs via my iPod with them. And I will transfer mp3 players when I have this opportunity (ie when I can figure out how to do it).



As far as this argument, I disagree. Especially if they want frustrated, relative computer illiterate people who have the ability to pay for their own as well as their children's iTunes songs to remain loyal customers. I expect them to help me figure out how to get all those songs back if I make an error and lose them. Hard copy CD's are totally different. You can't press a wrong button or get a virus online and lose everything when you have a hard copy CD. If you want people to take the risk to support iTunes they need to take care of their customers. If I'm going to take the risk to download a lot of $ from their site then they need to provide me the ability to recover my songs if I get a virus and lose it.

Bottom line - I'm not using iTunes anymore. And I used to buy lots of songs and television shows on iTunes. After I upgraded my iTunes thing twice and lost everything both times - oh, i forgot to tell you the last time I upgraded iTunes I completely lost the ability to download the entire season of Gray's Anatomy. It's still there on my "downloads" page - which when they start to download shut off my entire computer - actually the computer just gives me this black page with an error message about some fatal flaw. Won't work again until I reboot.

I wish I would have never upgraded to the new iTunes but they wouldn't let me download a movie from there until I did. Never got the movie.

So, maybe if iTunes only wants to be as good as regular CD's I'll just return to the regular CD's. I have actually started reverting to regular CD's because of this.

I really appreciate the time you took to reply to me. It's not very often I have the opportunity to talk with someone who knows about this. I did talk with a Mac online computer guy but he sold me a costly plan to be able to talk with him before he would talk to me about the iTunes problem. And after I paid the price he told me there was something wrong with my Windows (of course it works great except when I try to download the iTunes). He referred me to Windows help. I called them and they wanted $ too. I just said 'screw it' and decided to leave iTunes.

Macs are another matter. The jury is still out on that one but so far, other than getting used to how to work this thing I'm pleased. Also, the Mac has a bunch of icons at the bottom. iGarage band, for example. How do I get that guitar off my computer? Not like I'm going to use those. I think it's great Mac supports creativity but I don't know how to get rid of it. Like in windows you do a click with the mouse and a menu comes up that says "delete" and "poof" it's gone. I don't see any way to delete these. On the address book I said "new entry" and goofed it up. I can't see any way to delete the new entries. Do you know how to do that?

Mainly I got it so my child can learn to work both Windows and Mac. I think it's important. Plus I like the creativity Macs support. And it has more stuff for young people. Would be nice if they had a Mac geared towards old fogie stogies like me who want a more work oriented experience. I don't want to make a web page. I want to be able to access my palm pilot medical programs. I want to be able to do powerpoint presentations - which I have! able to run computer medical software - ie soap notes. And don't forget - TEXT TWIST! I can't get Yahoo Text twist to work on this computer. Won't download. I get kinda revved up when I can't get text twist.

Well, thanks for listening and letting me vent on this day two of my Mac experience.

P.S. I always feel like throwing my computers out the window when I first get them. I think these things ought to come with shot guns! And I used to have online medical records and tortured that guy at the help desk several times, then lost an intake I typed in 5 times!!! INTO the vapor-sphere - never to be seen again. And after 3 weeks went back to paper records. I just hope maybe iTunes will remember there are people like me who love the convenience and variety (although last time I checked they didn't have Led Zepplin or the Beatles on iTunes) they provide but don't have the patience or the cardiovascular stamina to withstand the stress of computer glitches when they involve loss of money (and the time it takes to pick and download what you want).

Oh, BTW, it's nice having young people around here! Hope you follow in your mother's shoes politically.

And thank you again for helping me out, sonPie.

SonPie has gone to bed but I will have him answer your questions tomorrow, G. Yep, old Mom is up later than he. Doesn't happen often but he worked a full shift today in the madness of "the day after Christmas."

I'll preface everything by saying we'll need to know what kind of computer you have and what version of the OS you are running. Under the Apple menu (top left corner), tell us what it says under "About This Mac"



Like I said above, we'll need to know what version of the OS you are running, as well as what kind of wireless mouse you have. One nice thing that Macs have going for them are the huge number of drivers built in to support things like mice, instead of all the time trying to locate, download and install drivers I went through when I had a Windows machine and updated mice and other peripherals to 'keep up with the Jones'
As far as software goes, if you have an Apple store nearby, they can provide you with a ton of software and face to face help. Otherwise, lacking that, I shop online for software. One more thing, newer Macs have built in software that allows you to run Windows software through an emulator. My machines are new enough for that, we purchased Virtual PC before Microsoft bought it and took it off the market.

It's great that our country has reached a point where it is acceptable to admit you experimented with a friend in college!


I guess I'm with SonPie on this one. I don't understand why you can't transfer songs, etc. that you purchased through iTunes from one computer to another, especially since you say you have a memory device available to you. Authorize your new computer (like you mention later) and all the material you purchased through iTunes is available to you.

Now, it would be nice if Apple allowed you to download material you had previously purchased on one computer onto another computer instead of having to physically 'transport' them, but that's not how it works. If you have a .Mac account, you can save some songs to your iDisk and then access them from another computer, but that's the only work around I know of - short of having a CD burner. Does your new machine have one built in?

I've never had this happen to me, nor have I heard of it happening to anyone, so I can't help you out here. I'll refer you to SonPie


The fastest way to clean up your Dock is to simply click on the icon you want to get rid of and drag it to the Garbage Can. This won't delete the software, it just removes it from the Dock.


I don't know anything about the software you're talking about, but I use PowerPoint extensively at work. The only time I have problems is when the IT people monkey with our network and suddenly Windows doesn't recognize my Mac created files as PPT files, which is fixed with "open with".
As far as your medical programs, is there someone at work that can help you get it set up on your new Mac?

Hi Gabrielle, I am glad to hear you got a Mac. You'll see that once you get the hang of it you'll love it and find it much easier to work on. Do you have an Apple store near you? They teach free workshops, one especially for people making the transition from PC to Mac. I also find it helpful to go to the Genius bar where they will help you with any of the problems that you describe above. I'm a visual learner and find it easier to learn when I see someone do what they are describing. I wish you the best with your new Mac. I see that you have already received lots of good advice.

from SonPie:



Although some specific children's software might not be made for Mac, there are almost certainly alternatives. Don't forget that the Mac was the first computing platform used in schools and still remains a significant player. Rosetta Stone supports the Mac. Parallels might not be completely necessary and adds some frustration if you don't know how to set it up.



If you bought a new Mac I find that very hard to believe. What model computer and what kind of keyboard did you buy?



For me to explain this, you need to understand the dynamics of the iTunes Store. Apple made the first deal with the record companies to allow online distribution of music. This agreement was not made as a profit source for Apple, but rather as a catalyst for iPod sales. Apple must pay for all of the technical side of the iTunes Store, including servers, bandwidth and technical support. It is estimated that from the sale of each track Apple only gets about 10 cents, the rest goes to the record company execs, who keep a disproportionate amount of that money. Once you take into account the cost of bandwidth (its not free), then Apple maybe makes a penny from each song. Now, consider for a second how much extra money it would cost Apple if everyone downloaded their songs 2 or 3 or more times. This would literally make iTunes completely unprofitable.

When you sign up for an account (and when you download music), iTunes reminds (and makes you legally agree) to the fact that you only have the right to download the songs you've purchased once and that you should always backup your music. iTunes makes it quite easy to do this. There is even a "Backup to CD/DVD" option in the 'File' menu. It doesn't get much easier than that. Even though viruses and wrong clicks (user error) can cause you to lose your music, so can you dropping the disc (user error) or kids deciding to play frisbee with the disc (kids have viruses, right?). Best Buy would probably literally laugh in your face if you went back to get a new copy of something you bought because you or your kid/dog/spouse/whatever broke it. You have to take care of music you buy. Just because its so easy to download it doesn't mean that you should always rely on getting it back that way.



I don't know why you can't copy these songs. iTunes does not limit you from making copies of the music onto a hard drive or other backup device. It only makes you authorize computers to play it, and then you can authorize up to 5 computers. By my count, you only have 3 computers to authorize, so I don't see a problem there.



Again, I don't understand why you can't transfer these songs.



This is illegal. It is stealing. It is not that much different from putting your songs on Napster. You're still depriving the artists of their royalties.



If you want to compare Apple to Wal-Mart (what a disgusting comparison), then I think this review of Wal-Marts music service says everything I could and more:



Now if you think that is better than iTunes...



Again, user error is no one's fault but your own. If you drop your CD/DVD on the ground and it becomes unplayable, should Best Buy help you get a new copy? You should be protected from viruses as well. Its actually pretty difficult to get a virus if you use some basic screening and a virus program.



I don't know how you could have lost your music. As I said, I've upgraded iTunes countless times since version 1.0 and have never lost music. I attribute your problems to user error or a faulty operating system/virus (both of which can be described by Windows). If you have stuff that won't download, contact the iTunes Store support staff via email. Tell them you just bought a new Mac but your old PC won't let you download the files. I'm sure they will be more than happy to resolve that issue. Although you won't get immediate gratification, email support is free.

From SonPie:



You can always use regular CDs in conjunction with iTunes. Sometimes I prefer buying regular CDs too because they offer higher audio quality, especially for classical music.



I would second his diagnosis as it being a Windows problem. What version of Windows were you using? If it was anything but the latest version of Windows XP with all the Windows Update patches installed then you were basically asking for trouble.



In address book, try the delete key. If that doesn't work, try looking for a minus button (since plus adds a new entry, minus will take it away).



The Mac is geared toward everyone. Even though you might not want to use GarageBand, Apple puts it there because the iLife package that Apple includes on every Mac is constantly reviewed as being the best on the market, for Mac or PC, and Apple is giving it to you for free. 'Text twist' should be your daily newspaper, but if its not, then you can easily play the game online. (link)

[quote name='Pie' post='666316' date='Dec 27 2006, 12:18 PM']from SonPie:
Although some specific children's software might not be made for Mac, there are almost certainly alternatives.

Actually, in kids software, there aren't.

Don't forget that the Mac was the first computing platform used in schools and still remains a significant player. Rosetta Stone supports the Mac. Parallels might not be completely necessary and adds some frustration if you don't know how to set it up.

If you bought a new Mac I find that very hard to believe. What model computer and what kind of keyboard did you buy?

totally true. I bought the keyboard that came up when I was buying the laptop. It's a wireless keyboard. It says it only works with some other version of the mac software. At least Dell has a system compatibility checker that tells you if something you've purchased doesn't work with something else you've purchased.

Once you take into account the cost of bandwidth (its not free), then Apple maybe makes a penny from each song. Now, consider for a second how much extra money it would cost Apple if everyone downloaded their songs 2 or 3 or more times. This would literally make iTunes completely unprofitable.

Well, I understand this better than anything you've said so far. But it costs me $1.99 each song. Add that up to a huge library of online songs and television shows and that means I'm out a lot of money. Which means I'm not going to be giving them even that one measly penny they get per song anymore because while they gained a penny, I lost 199 pennies.

When you sign up for an account (and when you download music), iTunes reminds (and makes you legally agree) to the fact that you only have the right to download the songs you've purchased once and that you should always backup your music.


Which is why I'm no longer using iTunes - and why I've written iTunes and told them they just lost a customer.

iTunes makes it quite easy to do this. There is even a "Backup to CD/DVD" option in the 'File' menu.

Yeah, but when your CD burner doesn't work, you're screwed!

It doesn't get much easier than that.

For you, maybe...

Even though viruses and wrong clicks (user error) can cause you to lose your music, so can you dropping the disc (user error) or kids deciding to play frisbee with the disc (kids have viruses, right?). Best Buy would probably literally laugh in your face if you went back to get a new copy of something you bought because you or your kid/dog/spouse/whatever broke it. You have to take care of music you buy. Just because its so easy to download it doesn't mean that you should always rely on getting it back that way.

When you break a CD you lose maximum 10 - 18 songs. You lose 20 - 30 dollars. If your car gets broken into and your CD thing gets stolen you could lose 50 CD's but even then car insurance will often pay for them. But you've still got all your other CD's at home that weren't stolen. On the other hand, when you get a virus you lose over 2,000 songs - wa la! poof! gonn-o! Into the VAPORsphere!

I could get a whole fleet of CD frisbees for what I lost on iTunes.

I don't know why you can't copy these songs. iTunes does not limit you from making copies of the music onto a hard drive or other backup device. It only makes you authorize computers to play it, and then you can authorize up to 5 computers. By my count, you only have 3 computers to authorize, so I don't see a problem there.
Again, I don't understand why you can't transfer these songs.

I don't either and this is what I'm most interested in figuring out.

This is illegal. It is stealing. It is not that much different from putting your songs on Napster. You're still depriving the artists of their royalties.
If you want to compare Apple to Wal-Mart (what a disgusting comparison), then I think this review of Wal-Marts music service says everything I could and more

Yeah, right, kid. Like you and your friends never downloaded songs off Napster....

I know there are ethical problems with shopping with Walmart. Which is why I'm so upset about iTunes. Hopefully if I can resolve my problems with getting my music saved and transferrable to my other authorized computers then I won't even have to think about Walmart. I don't care about having to manually download each track. It is nicer to press one button and get the whole album - although I rarely buy the whole album, anyway.


Again, user error is no one's fault but your own

That would make a nice, snappy commercial for Apple to air selling iTunes... lol And is relatively more informative of the support you're going to get after you buy 4 iPods in the last year and a boat load of songs. I guess if Apple wants people like me to continue shopping on their iTunes, they'd better come up with a better answer than that! One person doesn't make a difference. But evenutally people like me will start to add up. And once another, better program is out there - poof - we'll be gone from iTunes forever - and then the user error will have been on the part of iTunes...

Although you won't get immediate gratification, email support is free.

Well, that is helpful to know. Wish the guy who took my $65 dollars for a year or something's worth of phone service would have mentioned that nice little factoid to me PRIOR to taking my money!

You can't play the untimed version online. Can only get that if you download it onto your computer.

sonPie, I realize you're working in the retail sector for Apple post Christmas. And I'm frustrated with iTunes. I feel bad for getting into it with you about iTunes when you are obviously dealing with frustrated customers all day long. The only plus to this discussion here is you can lamblast me with whatever you wanted to say during the day to your customers. Gives you a nice outlet...

hmmmmm......

I'm going to go back and see if I can figure out how to transfer those songs to my other computers. You're saying that's possible and so is Noonan. So then it MUST be possible. Now the trick for me is to figure out HOW to do it...


insert evil laugh here.....

I know very little about mac... thus I will monitor this thread and learn a few things...

You can always use regular CDs in conjunction with iTunes. Sometimes I prefer buying regular CDs too because they offer higher audio quality, especially for classical music.
I would second his diagnosis as it being a Windows problem. What version of Windows were you using? If it was anything but the latest version of Windows XP with all the Windows Update patches installed then you were basically asking for trouble.

Well, why didn't they tell me this before they MADE me upgrade my iTunes before I could download anything?!!!!

And I believe I have the latest version of Windows XP but in today's world, who knows what the latest upgrade is.... Now I think it's VISTA which I just had a hunch was going to be chock full of security holes - which is why this conversation was started in the first place. But VISTA wasn't out 6 months ago when this all happened with the new version of iTunes.

In address book, try the delete key. If that doesn't work, try looking for a minus button (since plus adds a new entry, minus will take it away).

A HA! OK, will do. I guess that's the "intuitive part," eh? And why I wanted my child to learn this Mac system, too. So this won't be a problem later one...

The Mac is geared toward everyone. Even though you might not want to use GarageBand, Apple puts it there because the iLife package that Apple includes on every Mac is constantly reviewed as being the best on the market, for Mac or PC, and Apple is giving it to you for free. 'Text twist' should be your daily newspaper, but if its not, then you can easily play the game online.

Well, I like it for kids and musicians. I really like the Mac and Apple, too. I don't want you to get the wrong idea here, SP. (sonPie)

And I appreciate the time both you and Noonan have taken to answer my questions. I will go through your answers and try to figure out how to work it.

do you have a 1 to 2 gig usb flash drive? that would make file transfers fairly easy...

These instruction provided by apple to do a network based transfer of files from a pc to mac look way too complicated for a non technical user... I would not recommend this process unless you know what you are doing...

http://www.apple.com/macosx/switch/howto/network.html