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Beamer
From The Week, February 23, 2007.


QUOTE
"Accidents happen," said the London Independent in an editorial. In any war, some soldiers will be killed mistakenly by their own side. And after such a tragedy, "the relevant military bodies" have a moral, as well as legal, duty to "be honest with the bereaved family." The U.S. and British governments have failed to do so. In the first weeks of the Iraq war, Lance Cpl. Matty Hull of the Household Cavalry Regiment was killed when a U.S. aircraft mistakenly fired on this tank. Yet for four years, the U.S. refused to release the cockpit video of its pilots, and Britain didn't press it. It was only after someone leaked the video to the London Sun, which has been running it relentlessly on its Web site since last week, that the Americans conceded. And now that we've all seen the video, it's obvious that the U.S. was "citing legality and national security to cloak what looks rather more like national embarrassment."

The video documents stereotypical U.S. arrogance, said the London Daily Telegraph. "The decision to attack the British convoy was taken with frightening casualness," the two pilots gleeful in their location of a target and perfunctory in their inquiries about possible "friendlies" in the area. And then it was bombs away. Granted, the pilots were immediately appalled by their mistake: One began to weep, while the other actually vomited. But the incident only bolsters the prevailing British view that,” while the U.S. has the best kit, it does not necessarily have the best training.

Who are you to pass judgment on these soldiers" asked Magnus Linklater in the London Times. None of us should have seen this footage. The British press has been nearly unanimous in scolding the Americans for withholding the tape, mocking their national security considerations. But how can we be so sure that releasing the video doesn't harm U.S. security? It certainly shows "pilot-to-pilot exchanges, the identification of targets, operational details of the A-10 tankbuster communications system, and evidence of what it can deliver at 12,000 feet." I'm sure the enemy is happy to know those things. Cavalierly posting such information for the world to see "breaks all the rules that govern exchanges of intelligence between British and American forces." The Sun may have scored one by embarrassing the Americans, but it may also have "put lives at risk."

If we really want to protect innocent lives, said Simon Jenkins in the London Guardian, we should rethink our reliance on aerial bombing. The bomb that killed Matty Hull was surely not the only one to go astray in Iraq. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of Iraqi families have been killed by U.S. and British forces that thought they were targeting insurgents or terrorists. That's what we really should be investigating. Isn't the incidental killing of civilians "far more damaging to the cause of victory than friendly-fire casualties?"
GOPGuy
QUOTE(beamer @ Feb 18 2007, 01:05 PM) *
From The Week, February 23, 2007.


If I recall this specific incident, the US military personel involved did check for confirmation before attacking the target. It wasn't like Oh look what we found lets blow it away. So the whole 'US doesn't have first rate training' is a bogus inflammatory comment. I do agree the US should be more upfront about FF incidents, but releasing video of it shouldn't necessarily go along with any admissions. FF is probably always going to happen war, no way around it.
SFC_White
I fail to see how showing the cockpit tape would assist in the families recovery.
Marine
QUOTE(SFC_White @ Feb 28 2007, 06:38 AM) *
I fail to see how showing the cockpit tape would assist in the families recovery.

I agree, it's irrelevant and somehow these folks believe not releasing the video makes the US Air Force look bad.

Blue on Blue happens and no matter how hard we try to stop it from happening it will still happen. I had a few problems with the FAC with that TACP (That's Forward Air Controller with the Tactical Air Control Party for you folks who don't hablar) for not being tactically aware of where friendlies were located in that situation.

Most Marine aviators have served as company officers. The Marine flyers know the problems of the men on foot, and they were therefore more likely to have a sympathetic understanding of the man who had to assault a pillbox or a hillside cave....they were still Marines first, aviators second. This conditioned their attitude toward the troops on the ground. I don't think the Army does this.
TheRestofUs
War even in defense of oneself needs to be the last resort. Then all hell breaks loose and we need to end it as soon as possible. Those who love war should pray like Patten for forgiveness from God.
Marine
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Feb 28 2007, 11:30 AM) *
War even in defense of oneself needs to be the last resort. Then all hell breaks loose and we need to end it as soon as possible. Those who love war should pray like Patten for forgiveness from God.

TRoU, I can't think of anyone who is sane who would love war. And ending it as soon as possible is what I've preached for going on the last four years.

I realize some people don't think Grenada was really war but Grenada was how war ought to be done. Get in, get it done, and get out. That's what we done in Grenada and we did it because we had an overwhelming force who was ready, willing, and able to deal with who ever wanted to start any crap.

We done the same in Panama, get in, get it done, and get out. Personally I thought Panama was easier but no one shot at me personally in Panama(that I am aware of anyways). I'd bet the Grunts who took rounds thrown their way would disagree with that statement though.
Indianhead
Thus, we have the lesson that when we crank up our
death-dealing power, our leaders must consider all
aspects of the reasons and the results.

Once the dogs (of war) are loosed...sh*t happens.
Lots and lots of sh*t...and blood, and guts.

Murder and rape are dishonorable. However,
when someone sets the dogs on someone,
the owners are culpable, not just the dogs.

Dogs have the ability to be fiercely loyal,
kind and great friends...as well as vicious
protectors and biological weapons.

I love dogs...am training one...and understand
the responsibility of same...(I was a dogface)

Panama and Grenada were well calculated,
what we have now...is miscalculation...not just
by those who squeeze triggers or buttons on sticks.
SFC_White
Panana and Grenada were on a different scale, like comparing NASCAR to a matchbox derby... no disrespect to those that were at either.

I was jumping up and down about this Iraqi thing before Powell sold out and went to the UN.

And yet here we are belly up one and all time to pay for our sins.... cause we all let it happen.
tomhye
QUOTE(SFC_White @ Feb 28 2007, 05:32 PM) *
Panana and Grenada were on a different scale, like comparing NASCAR to a matchbox derby... no disrespect to those that were at either.

I was jumping up and down about this Iraqi thing before Powell sold out and went to the UN.

And yet here we are belly up one and all time to pay for our sins.... cause we all let it happen.


Powell sold out before that, it was when he let Cheney convince him to lie to the senate to get 907 suspended, that's when he went from honorable man to corrupt punk.
Indianhead
QUOTE(SFC_White @ Feb 28 2007, 06:32 PM) *
Panana and Grenada were on a different scale, like comparing NASCAR to a matchbox derby... no disrespect to those that were at either.

I was jumping up and down about this Iraqi thing before Powell sold out and went to the UN.

And yet here we are belly up one and all time to pay for our sins.... cause we all let it happen.


Such a true statement...but, my brother, my old-timer experience kept me form endorsing it.
Doesn't make me correct, or better, just sad. It's strange that I wish I could hump with
those guys...I'm too old...but I wish I could, they carry the colors...and that is so cool.
Marine
Sometimes I wished they'd a let me have gone to Gulf War 1, they left quite a few of us fellows with over 20 years of service home on that one.

I was 41 years old during Gulf War 1 and I would betcha I could a whipped three twenty year olds at the same time. With age comes a certain degree of experience, some people might call it not fighting fair; I'd call it I learned how to survive despite the odds.

Powell didn't sell anyone out, he read the same intelligence reports everybody else did. Powell wants the troop surge to work and be given a chance.

Marines have a tendency to look down on Army officers just because we don't think they are aggressive enough; Colin Powell ain't one of them.

And their ain't nothing wrong with aggressive officers; wars don't get won by being a shrinking violet. And troops don't come home so quick if the war ain't won.
SFC_White
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Feb 28 2007, 08:26 PM) *
Such a true statement...but, my brother, my old-timer experience kept me form endorsing it.
Doesn't make me correct, or better, just sad. It's strange that I wish I could hump with
those guys...I'm too old...but I wish I could, they carry the colors...and that is so cool.


Let me clarify ........ I wasn't jumping up and down because I thought invasion of a soveign nation was easy.... nor at the time the best alternative for the situation.

I was thnking that this is going to be A HELL OF A LOT bigger deal then all the lip service we (the public) were being given and......

I'm angry with myself for not expressing those thoughts more forcefully then just after dinner, water cooler chat with friends and family.....

Not that from my lane I could have turned the train around but I could have done more to reach out.
SFC_White
As a matter of opinion and I know I disagree with you Marine.......

But I listened to Powells speach to the UN and I was like the old lady in the Wendy's commercial....

>>>>WERE IS THE BEEF<<<<

And I thought to myself.... We are going to war over this?

Grant it Saddam was a pain the arse and upto no good and I hate agreeing with the French just because...... well they are French.

But Iraq is no Grenada or Panama.... and we had plenty of Human Intel in Afghanstan amoung other things that made Afghanistan a success... which even know is wanning.

If you are going to pull something that big off you'd better have your sh!t packed tight and for the long haul. ... as a soldier... as a general.... as a politican..... as a citizen .....as a country...
TheRestofUs
QUOTE(SFC_White @ Mar 1 2007, 07:08 AM) *
As a matter of opinion and I know I disagree with you Marine.......

But I listened to Powells speach to the UN and I was like the old lady in the Wendy's commercial....

>>>>WERE IS THE BEEF<<<<

And I thought to myself.... We are going to war over this?

Grant it Saddam was a pain the arse and upto no good and I hate agreeing with the French just because...... well they are French.

But Iraq is no Grenada or Panama.... and we had plenty of Human Intel in Afghanstan amoung other things that made Afghanistan a success... which even know is wanning.

If you are going to pull something that big off you'd better have your sh!t packed tight and for the long haul. ... as a soldier... as a general.... as a politican..... as a citizen .....as a country...

Uh, Oh. Watch out! I totally agree! smile.gif
Marine
QUOTE(SFC_White @ Mar 1 2007, 09:08 AM) *
As a matter of opinion and I know I disagree with you Marine.......

But I listened to Powells speach to the UN and I was like the old lady in the Wendy's commercial....

>>>>WERE IS THE BEEF<<<<

And I thought to myself.... We are going to war over this?

Grant it Saddam was a pain the arse and upto no good and I hate agreeing with the French just because...... well they are French.

But Iraq is no Grenada or Panama.... and we had plenty of Human Intel in Afghanstan amoung other things that made Afghanistan a success... which even know is wanning.

If you are going to pull something that big off you'd better have your sh!t packed tight and for the long haul. ... as a soldier... as a general.... as a politican..... as a citizen .....as a country...

1st Sgt, I was uneasy about both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Right after 9/11 and we went after Afghanistan I believed we'd stuck like a bug on flypaper in a short time. The British tried to subjugate Afghanistan for what? About 100 years. And everytime they marched an Army through the Kyber Pass it came limping back after a short while severly whipped upon. The Russians were only a little bit smarter, they gave up after just 10 years of hemmoraging Russian blood upon that God forsaken land. I was pretty proud of the approach someone in the puzzle palace came up with for how America was to deal with Afghanistan. We let the Afganis do it, what a novel idea, eh?

Iraq was an entirely different fear though, I was convince I would be attending a bunch of funerals of people I used to work with who'd been gassed in that drive for Baghdad. I don't know why the powers in charge didn't send sufficient troops to secure Iraq, that's been a beef I had from the get go. I can't even speculate what was going on there because that's all it would be on my part.

I know when Saddam kicked out the inspectors he hit the top of the list on the perceived threat list in the Middle East. That was back under Clinton's watch so I don't think George Bush was manipulating intel back then. Everyone thought Saddam kicked the inspectors out to resurrect his Chemical and Biological programs and Saddam didn't do a thing to disuade anybody that was exactly what he was up to.

Did you ever talk to any Iraqis about what Saddam told them about Gulf War 1? He told them he'd defeated the USA and it's allies is what I heard. Iraqi Generals charged with defending Iraq in 2003 thought they'd have chemical weapons available to defend Iraq with up until about 3 days before the invasion. I'm not buying the line that Bush made up the intel used to invade Iraq because I seen too many things saying Saddam was trying to make everyone believe he was a tough guy not to be messed with. I believe everything Colin Powell said was from his earnest belief of what he believed to be a threat to his country.
SFC_White
I've spoken to many Iraqi's about the delusions for Saddam. Most people not in his favor were skeptics... most Baath party people drank the kool aide (just like people do here), mainly because he was the hand that fed them.

IMHO
The Intel presented was a bunch of grainy satellite images, one phrase in a conversation captured between to mid level officers, and some drunken ex pat here in the States, who I might add had ulterior motives.

None of these separate incidents could be substantiated on there own... but with all Intell (good bad, feint or neutral) it all rises to the top.

For a Raid, Search & Seize or other small action I've got probably cause and I would expect a local commander to follow up.

For a case for war I expect more... cooperating intel for specific events from more then one source, reliable HUMit sources or ones that can be backed up by independent sources.

Even then there are several options that can be done that would not rise to the level of full combat and occupation.

An occupation requires a bit of planning... local active civilians (ah not drunken, greedy ex pats), the security in place that would require overwhelming boots on ground and it may not be a requirement but is dam sure useful a solid coalition of neighboring countries with a sprinkling of international support.

I respectfully disagree with Gen Powell's assessment he delivered to the UN at the time.

But I am not in a position to argue. I have said my peice and will continue to soldier on.

PEACE
Noonan
And, don't forget, the person in charge of our HUMINT in both Iraq and Iran was Valarie Plame. Once her husband started speaking out against the 'evidence' her cover was blown, along with that of every agent she was managing in those two countries. Real agents, real people who could have provided real information. Not the 'Curveball' crap that sold us down the river and into the mess we're in today.
Marine
QUOTE(Noonan @ Mar 2 2007, 06:40 AM) *
And, don't forget, the person in charge of our HUMINT in both Iraq and Iran was Valarie Plame. Once her husband started speaking out against the 'evidence' her cover was blown, along with that of every agent she was managing in those two countries. Real agents, real people who could have provided real information. Not the 'Curveball' crap that sold us down the river and into the mess we're in today.

Funny, I always thought that Patrick Lang was in charge of HUMINT; is this a new smoke and mirrors campaign Noonan?
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