as arneoker said he deleted the said thread, this is a good time to re-establish it
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1184260382...s_whats_news_us
Bush Admits White House CIA Leak
Associated Press
Word Count: 470
WASHINGTON -- President Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time Thursday that someone in his administration "perhaps" leaked the name of a CIA operative, although he also said he hopes the controversy over his decision to spare prison for a former White House aide has "run its course."
"And now we're going to move on," Mr. Bush said in a White House news conference.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed the identity of Valerie Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and a ...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/12/...le3050521.shtml
Bush Admits Administration Leaked CIA Name
WASHINGTON, July 12, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP) President Bush on Thursday sought to put to rest the controversy over his decision to spare a top former White House official from going to jail, saying it was time to move on. He also called on the nation and skeptical lawmakers to stand with him on Iraq, despite a new report showing only mixed progress.
At a news conference lasting over an hour that was dominated by questions on Iraq, Mr. Bush was asked about his decision ten days ago to commute the 30-month prison sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.
Libby was convicted of lying and obstruction of justice in the investigation of the outing of an undercover CIA official, Valerie Plame, whose husband Joseph Wilson was a vocal anti-war critic.
Mr. Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time that someone in his administration perhaps leaked her name to the news media. "And, you know, I've often thought about what would have happened had that person come forth and said, 'I did it.' Would we have had this, you know, endless hours of investigation and a lot of money being spent on this matter?"
Mr. Bush would not directly answer a question about whether he is disappointed in the White House officials who leaked Plame's name.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed Plame's identity.
"It has been a tough issue for a lot of people in the White House, and it has run its course, and now we're going to move on," Bush declared.
Several Bush administration officials revealed Plame's identity. White House political adviser Karl Rove and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage were the primary sources for a 2003 newspaper article outing Plame. Former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer also admitted telling reporters about her. And jurors apparently believed prosecutors who said Libby discussed Plame with reporters from the New York Times and Time magazine. Libby was the only one charged in the matter.
Mr. Bush presented a mixed picture of progress in Iraq, coinciding with an interim report to Congress by his administration that asserted progress on some fronts but not on others.
The administration's report said there has been satisfactory progress on eight political and military benchmarks, unsatisfactory progress on another eight, and mixed results in two other areas.
The president also said that, while al Qaeda remains a threat to the United States, it has been hurt by his war on terrorism and is "weaker today than they would have been" otherwise. He spoke as a new U.S. threat assessment found that al Qaeda had rebuilt its capability to mount attacks to levels not seen since 2001.
On one of the few other questions of the news conference not related to Iraq, Mr. Bush was asked whether he also had a "gut feeling" there might be a terror attack this summer, as Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had recently suggested.
"My gut tells me that, which my head tells as well, is that: When we find a credible threat, we'll share it with you."
Mr. Bush also addressed his low approval ratings and mounting public opposition to the war. "You know, I guess I'm like any other political figure. Everybody wants to be loved — just sometimes the decisions you make and the consequences don't enable you to be loved.
"And so, when it's all said and done, if you ever come down and visit the old, tired me down there in Crawford, (Texas), I will be able to say I looked in the mirror and made decisions based upon principle, not based upon politics. And that's important to me."
Mr. Bush opened the news conference with a tribute to Lady Bird Johnson. The former first lady died on Wednesday at age 94.
Mr. Bush called her "an extraordinary first lady and a fine Texan. ... She brought grace to the White House and beauty to our country."
© MMVII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feedback Terms of Service Privacy Statement
Bush Admits Administration Leaked CIA Name
WASHINGTON, July 12, 2007
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP) President Bush on Thursday sought to put to rest the controversy over his decision to spare a top former White House official from going to jail, saying it was time to move on. He also called on the nation and skeptical lawmakers to stand with him on Iraq, despite a new report showing only mixed progress.
At a news conference lasting over an hour that was dominated by questions on Iraq, Mr. Bush was asked about his decision ten days ago to commute the 30-month prison sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.
Libby was convicted of lying and obstruction of justice in the investigation of the outing of an undercover CIA official, Valerie Plame, whose husband Joseph Wilson was a vocal anti-war critic.
Mr. Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time that someone in his administration perhaps leaked her name to the news media. "And, you know, I've often thought about what would have happened had that person come forth and said, 'I did it.' Would we have had this, you know, endless hours of investigation and a lot of money being spent on this matter?"
Mr. Bush would not directly answer a question about whether he is disappointed in the White House officials who leaked Plame's name.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed Plame's identity.
"It has been a tough issue for a lot of people in the White House, and it has run its course, and now we're going to move on," Bush declared.
Several Bush administration officials revealed Plame's identity. White House political adviser Karl Rove and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage were the primary sources for a 2003 newspaper article outing Plame. Former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer also admitted telling reporters about her. And jurors apparently believed prosecutors who said Libby discussed Plame with reporters from the New York Times and Time magazine. Libby was the only one charged in the matter.
Mr. Bush presented a mixed picture of progress in Iraq, coinciding with an interim report to Congress by his administration that asserted progress on some fronts but not on others.
The administration's report said there has been satisfactory progress on eight political and military benchmarks, unsatisfactory progress on another eight, and mixed results in two other areas.
The president also said that, while al Qaeda remains a threat to the United States, it has been hurt by his war on terrorism and is "weaker today than they would have been" otherwise. He spoke as a new U.S. threat assessment found that al Qaeda had rebuilt its capability to mount attacks to levels not seen since 2001.
On one of the few other questions of the news conference not related to Iraq, Mr. Bush was asked whether he also had a "gut feeling" there might be a terror attack this summer, as Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had recently suggested.
"My gut tells me that, which my head tells as well, is that: When we find a credible threat, we'll share it with you."
Mr. Bush also addressed his low approval ratings and mounting public opposition to the war. "You know, I guess I'm like any other political figure. Everybody wants to be loved — just sometimes the decisions you make and the consequences don't enable you to be loved.
"And so, when it's all said and done, if you ever come down and visit the old, tired me down there in Crawford, (Texas), I will be able to say I looked in the mirror and made decisions based upon principle, not based upon politics. And that's important to me."
Mr. Bush opened the news conference with a tribute to Lady Bird Johnson. The former first lady died on Wednesday at age 94.
Mr. Bush called her "an extraordinary first lady and a fine Texan. ... She brought grace to the White House and beauty to our country."
© MMVII The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feedback Terms of Service Privacy Statement
http://www.phila-tribune.com/channel/news/.../bush071307.asp
Bush admits White House leaked Plame’s name
By Terrence Hunt
WASHINGTON — President Bush yesterday sought to put to rest the controversy over his decision to spare a top former White House official from going to jail, saying it was time to move on. He also called on the nation and skeptical lawmakers to stand with him on Iraq, despite a new report showing only mixed progress.
"There's war fatigue in America. It's affecting our psychology. I understand that. It's an ugly war," Bush said.
The president also said that, while al-Qaida remains a threat to the United States, it has been hurt by his war on terrorism and is "weaker today than they would have been" otherwise. He spoke as a new U.S. threat assessment found that al Qaida had rebuilt its capability to mount attacks to levels not seen since 2001.
At a news conference lasting over an hour that was dominated by questions on Iraq, Bush was asked about his decision ten days ago to commute the 30-month prison sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.
Libby was convicted of lying and obstruction of justice in the investigation of the outing of an undercover CIA official, Valerie Plame, whose husband Joseph Wilson was a vocal anti-war critic.
Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time that someone in his administration leaked her name to the news media. "And, you know, I've often thought about what would have happened had that person come forth and said, ‘I did it.’ Would we have had this, you know, endless hours of investigation and a lot of money being spent on this matter?"
Bush would not directly answer a question about whether he is disappointed in the White House officials who leaked Plame's name.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed Plame's identity.
"It has been a tough issue for a lot of people in the White House, and it's run its course, and now we're going to move on," Bush declared.
Several Bush administration officials revealed Plame's identity. White House political adviser Karl Rove and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage were the primary sources for a 2003 newspaper article outing Plame. Former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer also admitted telling reporters about her. And jurors apparently believed prosecutors who said Libby discussed Plame with reporters from the New York Times and Time magazine. Libby was the only one charged in the matter.
Meanwhile, the sentencing judge, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, took issue Thursday with Bush's characterization of Libby's sentence as "excessive."
"It is fair to say the Court is somewhat perplexed as to how its sentence could be accurately described as 'excessive,'" wrote Walton, a Bush appointee. He noted that the 2-1/2-year sentence was at the low end of federal sentencing guidelines.
Walton's comments came in a footnote to an opinion formalizing Libby's probation term. Bush kept in place two years probation and a $250,000 fine, which Libby has already paid.
Bush presented a mixed picture of progress in Iraq, coinciding with an interim report to Congress by his administration that asserted progress on some fronts but not on others.
He said he understood the growing opposition to the war among the American public and recent defections by some Republicans in Congress. He said he had listened carefully to influential Republican senators who had recently been critical of his war strategy. But, in the end, he said, he was commander in chief and he would rely on advice from his military commanders.
"I value the advice of those senators, I appreciate their concern. ... I'm going to continue to listen to them," Bush said.
He said he still believed the war could — and must — be won. "If we increase our support at this crucial moment, we can hasten the day when our troops come home," Bush said.
The administration's report said there has been satisfactory progress on eight political and military benchmarks, unsatisfactory progress on another eight, and mixed results in two other areas.
On one of the few other questions of the news conference not related to Iraq, Bush was asked whether he also had a "gut feeling" there might be a terror attack this summer, as Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had recently suggested.
"My gut tells me that, which my head tells as well, is that: When we find a credible threat, we'll share it with you."
Bush also addressed his low approval ratings and mounting public opposition to the war. "You know, I guess I'm like any other political figure. Everybody wants to be loved — just sometimes the decisions you make and the consequences don't enable you to be loved.
"And so, when it's all said and done, if you ever come down and visit the old, tired me down there in Crawford, (Texas), I will be able to say I looked in the mirror and made decisions based upon principle, not based upon politics. And that's important to me."
Bush opened the news conference with a tribute to Lady Bird Johnson. The former first lady died on Wednesday at age 94.
Bush called her "an extraordinary first lady and a fine Texan. ... She brought grace to the White House and beauty to our country." — (AP)
Bush admits White House leaked Plame’s name
By Terrence Hunt
WASHINGTON — President Bush yesterday sought to put to rest the controversy over his decision to spare a top former White House official from going to jail, saying it was time to move on. He also called on the nation and skeptical lawmakers to stand with him on Iraq, despite a new report showing only mixed progress.
"There's war fatigue in America. It's affecting our psychology. I understand that. It's an ugly war," Bush said.
The president also said that, while al-Qaida remains a threat to the United States, it has been hurt by his war on terrorism and is "weaker today than they would have been" otherwise. He spoke as a new U.S. threat assessment found that al Qaida had rebuilt its capability to mount attacks to levels not seen since 2001.
At a news conference lasting over an hour that was dominated by questions on Iraq, Bush was asked about his decision ten days ago to commute the 30-month prison sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney.
Libby was convicted of lying and obstruction of justice in the investigation of the outing of an undercover CIA official, Valerie Plame, whose husband Joseph Wilson was a vocal anti-war critic.
Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time that someone in his administration leaked her name to the news media. "And, you know, I've often thought about what would have happened had that person come forth and said, ‘I did it.’ Would we have had this, you know, endless hours of investigation and a lot of money being spent on this matter?"
Bush would not directly answer a question about whether he is disappointed in the White House officials who leaked Plame's name.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed Plame's identity.
"It has been a tough issue for a lot of people in the White House, and it's run its course, and now we're going to move on," Bush declared.
Several Bush administration officials revealed Plame's identity. White House political adviser Karl Rove and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage were the primary sources for a 2003 newspaper article outing Plame. Former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer also admitted telling reporters about her. And jurors apparently believed prosecutors who said Libby discussed Plame with reporters from the New York Times and Time magazine. Libby was the only one charged in the matter.
Meanwhile, the sentencing judge, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton, took issue Thursday with Bush's characterization of Libby's sentence as "excessive."
"It is fair to say the Court is somewhat perplexed as to how its sentence could be accurately described as 'excessive,'" wrote Walton, a Bush appointee. He noted that the 2-1/2-year sentence was at the low end of federal sentencing guidelines.
Walton's comments came in a footnote to an opinion formalizing Libby's probation term. Bush kept in place two years probation and a $250,000 fine, which Libby has already paid.
Bush presented a mixed picture of progress in Iraq, coinciding with an interim report to Congress by his administration that asserted progress on some fronts but not on others.
He said he understood the growing opposition to the war among the American public and recent defections by some Republicans in Congress. He said he had listened carefully to influential Republican senators who had recently been critical of his war strategy. But, in the end, he said, he was commander in chief and he would rely on advice from his military commanders.
"I value the advice of those senators, I appreciate their concern. ... I'm going to continue to listen to them," Bush said.
He said he still believed the war could — and must — be won. "If we increase our support at this crucial moment, we can hasten the day when our troops come home," Bush said.
The administration's report said there has been satisfactory progress on eight political and military benchmarks, unsatisfactory progress on another eight, and mixed results in two other areas.
On one of the few other questions of the news conference not related to Iraq, Bush was asked whether he also had a "gut feeling" there might be a terror attack this summer, as Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had recently suggested.
"My gut tells me that, which my head tells as well, is that: When we find a credible threat, we'll share it with you."
Bush also addressed his low approval ratings and mounting public opposition to the war. "You know, I guess I'm like any other political figure. Everybody wants to be loved — just sometimes the decisions you make and the consequences don't enable you to be loved.
"And so, when it's all said and done, if you ever come down and visit the old, tired me down there in Crawford, (Texas), I will be able to say I looked in the mirror and made decisions based upon principle, not based upon politics. And that's important to me."
Bush opened the news conference with a tribute to Lady Bird Johnson. The former first lady died on Wednesday at age 94.
Bush called her "an extraordinary first lady and a fine Texan. ... She brought grace to the White House and beauty to our country." — (AP)
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jul 19 2007, 06:40 AM) 
as arneoker said he deleted the said thread, this is a good time to re-establish it
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1184260382...s_whats_news_us
Bush Admits White House CIA Leak
Associated Press
Word Count: 470
WASHINGTON -- President Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time Thursday that someone in his administration "perhaps" leaked the name of a CIA operative, although he also said he hopes the controversy over his decision to spare prison for a former White House aide has "run its course."
"And now we're going to move on," Mr. Bush said in a White House news conference.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed the identity of Valerie Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and a ...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1184260382...s_whats_news_us
Bush Admits White House CIA Leak
Associated Press
Word Count: 470
WASHINGTON -- President Bush acknowledged publicly for the first time Thursday that someone in his administration "perhaps" leaked the name of a CIA operative, although he also said he hopes the controversy over his decision to spare prison for a former White House aide has "run its course."
"And now we're going to move on," Mr. Bush said in a White House news conference.
The president had initially said he would fire anyone in his administration found to have publicly disclosed the identity of Valerie Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson and a ...
This is what happens when Organizations operate on, "Channels of Input" from, 'a thousand
points of lights' in the Organization and "Channels of Output" to a thousand points of Action
in the Real World...without much mutual understanding or support within any given given
aggregate of Individual Persons. When a Manager says, "We want your input, run like hell.
It is usually a way to avoid talking with you. The current White House Organization has
this worked out to a very high art. (ps. check out the, "In Defense of an Open Society"
Thread)
At the risk of being repititive:
Thanks Graham.
Thanks Graham.
I thought I would provide this link and text like I did in the original thread.
You can't repeat the truth too much, especially when defenders of this Administration are constantly peddling their spin!
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/hea...t-valerie-plame
You can't repeat the truth too much, especially when defenders of this Administration are constantly peddling their spin!
http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/hea...t-valerie-plame
QUOTE
Woodward: Well it was Joe Wilson who was sent by the agency, isn’t it?
Armitage: His wife works for the agency.
Woodward: Why doesn’t that come out? Why does that have to be a big secret?
Armitage: (over) Everybody knows it.
Woodward: Everyone knows?
Armitage: Yeah. And they know ’cause Joe Wilson’s been calling everybody. He’s pissed off ’cause he was designated as a low level guy went out to look at it. So he’s all pissed off.
Woodward: But why would they send him?
Armitage: Because his wife’s an analyst at the agency.
Woodward: It’s still weird.
Armitage: He — he’s perfect. She — she, this is what she does. She’s a WMD analyst out there.
Woodward: Oh, she is.
Armitage: (over) Yeah.
Woodward: Oh, I see. I didn’t think…
Armitage: (over) "I know who’ll look at it." Yeah, see?
Woodward: Oh. She’s the chief WMD…?
Armitage: No. She’s not the…
Woodward: But high enough up that she could say, "oh, yeah, hubby will go."
Armitage: Yeah. She knows [garbled].
Woodward: Was she out there with him, when he was…?
Armitage: (over) No, not to my knowledge. I don’t know if she was out there. But his wife’s in the agency as a WMD analyst. How about that?
Armitage: His wife works for the agency.
Woodward: Why doesn’t that come out? Why does that have to be a big secret?
Armitage: (over) Everybody knows it.
Woodward: Everyone knows?
Armitage: Yeah. And they know ’cause Joe Wilson’s been calling everybody. He’s pissed off ’cause he was designated as a low level guy went out to look at it. So he’s all pissed off.
Woodward: But why would they send him?
Armitage: Because his wife’s an analyst at the agency.
Woodward: It’s still weird.
Armitage: He — he’s perfect. She — she, this is what she does. She’s a WMD analyst out there.
Woodward: Oh, she is.
Armitage: (over) Yeah.
Woodward: Oh, I see. I didn’t think…
Armitage: (over) "I know who’ll look at it." Yeah, see?
Woodward: Oh. She’s the chief WMD…?
Armitage: No. She’s not the…
Woodward: But high enough up that she could say, "oh, yeah, hubby will go."
Armitage: Yeah. She knows [garbled].
Woodward: Was she out there with him, when he was…?
Armitage: (over) No, not to my knowledge. I don’t know if she was out there. But his wife’s in the agency as a WMD analyst. How about that?
In a nutshell our "government" outed their own covert agent and all her contacts and every operation she was involved in trying to track WMD proliferation and keep us safer because they wanted to lie us into a war.
If that ain't treason? Then I don't know what is.
If that ain't treason? Then I don't know what is.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 19 2007, 02:04 PM)
In a nutshell our "government" outed their own covert agent and all her contacts and every operation she was involved in trying to track WMD proliferation and keep us safer because they wanted to lie us into a war.
If that ain't treason? Then I don't know what is.
If that ain't treason? Then I don't know what is.
Yep.
And all the diversions and deliberate spin of the facts cannot change that.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2007, 07:11 AM)
This is what happens when Organizations operate on, "Channels of Input" from, 'a thousand
points of lights' in the Organization and "Channels of Output" to a thousand points of Action
in the Real World...without much mutual understanding or support within any given given
aggregate of Individual Persons. When a Manager says, "We want your input, run like hell.
It is usually a way to avoid talking with you. The current White House Organization has
this worked out to a very high art. (ps. check out the, "In Defense of an Open Society"
Thread)
points of lights' in the Organization and "Channels of Output" to a thousand points of Action
in the Real World...without much mutual understanding or support within any given given
aggregate of Individual Persons. When a Manager says, "We want your input, run like hell.
It is usually a way to avoid talking with you. The current White House Organization has
this worked out to a very high art. (ps. check out the, "In Defense of an Open Society"
Thread)
A system's Analysis of how the White House actually functions relative to the President's Office and how
each of these function relative to the Federal Departments Heads and the President's various Special Advisers and how free Bush and Cheny are to dip into any of these operations and temporarily take them over with special influence, would be interesting. The question of how many agendas are going on becomes very real in such a closed, chaos riden environment.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2007, 02:15 PM)
A system's Analysis of how the White House actually functions relative to the President's Office and how
each of these function relative to the Federal Departments Heads and the President's various Special Advisers and how free Bush and Cheny are to dip into any of these operations and temporarily take them over with special influence, would be interesting. The question of how many agendas are going on becomes very real in such a closed, chaos riden environment.
each of these function relative to the Federal Departments Heads and the President's various Special Advisers and how free Bush and Cheny are to dip into any of these operations and temporarily take them over with special influence, would be interesting. The question of how many agendas are going on becomes very real in such a closed, chaos riden environment.
Let me ask you a general question.
I think that Bush and Cheney are control freaks. Do you think that, ironically, the efforts of control freaks are more likely to lead to chaos than the efforts of managers with different management styles?
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 19 2007, 12:33 PM)
Let me ask you a general question.
I think that Bush and Cheney are control freaks. Do you think that, ironically, the efforts of control freaks are more likely to lead to chaos than the efforts of managers with different management styles?
I think that Bush and Cheney are control freaks. Do you think that, ironically, the efforts of control freaks are more likely to lead to chaos than the efforts of managers with different management styles?
My general answer is yes. I think Cheny fits the control freak profile more than Bush II. Bush's
True Believer, dogmatic style generates a lot of chaos which Cheny trys to guide with his selective attention to Bush.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2007, 02:57 PM)
My general answer is yes. I think Cheny fits the control freak profile more than Bush II. Bush's
True Believer, dogmatic style generates a lot of chaos which Cheny trys to guide with his selective attention to Bush.
True Believer, dogmatic style generates a lot of chaos which Cheny trys to guide with his selective attention to Bush.
But does Cheney's control freakery actually generate more chaos than order?
Sort of like if you have a skin rash. You apply lotion to it, but the rash only gets worse, so keep applying more and more of it. What you don't realize is that the lotion irritates your skin more than it soothes it.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 19 2007, 01:33 PM)
Let me ask you a general question.
I think that Bush and Cheney are control freaks. Do you think that, ironically, the efforts of control freaks are more likely to lead to chaos than the efforts of managers with different management styles?
I think that Bush and Cheney are control freaks. Do you think that, ironically, the efforts of control freaks are more likely to lead to chaos than the efforts of managers with different management styles?
I'm not sure whether or not this is open for general discussion, but I'll put my 2 cents in. If I'm butting in in error, please excuse my enthusiasim.
I've worked for several control freaks, and depending upon their ages, cause different levels of chaos, injure their employees' psyches and, ultimately, do damage to the very venture or organization they are supposed to be managing or controlling.
The older they have been, say 50 and above, the more recalcitrant they are, the more stubborn they are, and the more apt they are to insult others. The two I've worked for ended up away from employees and in 'special projects', where they were under the supervision of an older manager who had much greater authority. Their livihoods were on the line, so they quieted down until they were forcibly retired. One of these has died already, the other has married twice more since I worked for him. One guy in his 40s could at least be talked with and would occasionally listen to others, but I think his reactions were acquired social skill reactions rather than welcoming of constructive criticism. He's probably headed for a drug or alcohol addiction because his true personality has been stymied. Another younger guy in his 30s would just have temper tantrums, fire people, insult customers and run off at the mouth. Needless to say, his company has been teetering on the brink of bankruptcy for years. I heard just the other day that he was picked up for DUI. Downward spiral, indeed.
IMO, Bush is a follower, Cheney is a freak, period. Knowing whether a control freak or just plain freak would take getting much closer than I would wish for. Some of his evil might rub off.
QUOTE(grammydidi @ Jul 19 2007, 03:38 PM)
I'm not sure whether or not this is open for general discussion, but I'll put my 2 cents in. If I'm butting in in error, please excuse my enthusiasim.
Absolutely not, I appreciate your comments, and would appreciate those of anyone else.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 19 2007, 01:45 PM)
Absolutely not, I appreciate your comments, and would appreciate those of anyone else.
Ditto. Here's a piece of information that I think relates to this more general concept. In some
research I was involved in several years ago with the Air Force NCO Leadership School, we demonstrated quite clearly that when NCO's interviewed Military personnel or civilian employes with the goal of obtaining certain information that might be considered threatening to the interviewee, more useful information was obtained in less time, when the interviewer used active listening methods: hovering attentiveness, short encouragers such as I see or really and occasionlly refering to the interviewee's current feelings such as happy, mad, scared or sad rather than asking a lot of questions, especially closed ended questions. Interrogation is the
prefered style of those with authoritarian and dogmatic personality structures but it does not
ellicit more useful information.
Exclusive Book Excerpt: 'Sabotage' Part 4 -- How the CIA triggered Plame probe
Jul 19, 2007 6:12 AM (1 day ago)
by Rowan Scarborough, The Examiner
(AP)
Not every exposed secret merits a referral, though, and few referrals lead to leak investigations. If Justice launched a criminal investigation based on every referral, it would need to hire hundreds more lawyers.
Even so, initiating a criminal referral is one of Langley's most powerful tools. Washington politicians know it, because senators and congressmen, by intent or inadvertently, sometimes discuss classified information in public. Right after the Sept. 11 attacks, Sen. Orrin Hatch disclosed classified evidence against al Qaeda he had just learned from the CIA. He later apologized. No one wants to be the subject of a criminal referral.
In July 2003, Dion reviewed one of about a hundred referrals he got each year. No bells went off. It did not appear to be an issue of grave national security. The CIA said one of its clandestine officers, Valerie Plame, had been named in a July 14, 2003, column by Robert Novak, an old Washington hand who mixes reporting with opinion.
The Novak column centered on Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, and his trip to Niger to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein approached that country to buy uranium. Wilson had written a now-famous op-ed in the New York Times that month revealing his secret mission. He said he found no evidence that Saddam had tried to buy uranium and maintained his mission rebutted a key line in President Bush's State of the Union address - the controversial "sixteen words."
But why would the administration send a former ambassador like Wilson to do intelligence work? Novak's column explained why: It quoted administration sources as saying his wife got him the job. Novak found her maiden name, Valerie Plame, in Wilson's Who's Who entry and mentioned her in his column.
The CIA cried foul. The Agency's general counsel office filed a referral describing an "unauthorized disclosure." The counsel informed Director George Tenet that the referral was headed to the Department of Justice. An Agency director has never stopped the process, but, in a sense, Tenet was tacitly approving an investigation of the White House.
The paperwork said the disclosure of Plame's name may have violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Dion looked the referral over. His office sent the CIA an 11-point questionnaire, as is routine. One question was what effect the disclosure would have on national security.
A Justice source told me the CIA made a weak case that the unauthorized release of Plame's identity damaged national security. (In contrast, a subsequent leak from the CIA to the New York Times about the terrorist surveillance program did trigger an immediate probe.)
And it was unclear whether Plame qualified under the protection act because she worked under "non-official cover." She had traveled overseas in the guise of an employee of a marketing firm. Non-official cover is different than "official cover," which usually means the CIA officer is assigned to an embassy, and the host government is notified.
Dion, a prosecutor at Justice for more than 30 years, took no action on the CIA referral. He had no plans to start a formal investigation, a Justice source told me. The referral seemed so flimsy that the office of Attorney General John Ashcroft was not informed.
But then MSNBC broke the news of the referral on Sept. 28, two months after it was filed. The media and political pressure became intense. Before he went home that Friday, Dion decided to make the Novak column a criminal case.
Justice officials are certain that the CIA was responsible for the leak. Only Dion and a few others in his section knew of it. These people are perhaps the most-tight-lipped in government, because of the extremely sensitive matters they handle.
"I never talk to reporters," Dion once told a colleague. Once, at a Justice Department reception, a network news reporter introduced herself. Dion said, "Nice to meet you," and then walked away.
Justice officials also noted that the leak came just as the public learned that investigators had not found weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq, making the CIA's intelligence wrong again.
Less than a week later, a news report based on one anonymous source implicated two White House aides in the leak. They supposedly wanted to ruin Plame's career as revenge against Wilson for his criticism of President Bush. The Novak column was part of a White House conspiracy, Democrats charged. They demanded an independent investigator.
At the end of 2003, Justice turned the probe over to Patrick Fitzgerald, a career prosecutor serving as the U.S. attorney in Chicago. Fitzgerald quickly made a decision with far-reaching consequences for Washington's power players.
Normally, it is up to the attorney general to approve any subpoena directed at a news reporter. Such action is rarely taken, and the Justice Department had guidelines in place against the subpoena of reporters. The Bush Justice Department approved only one: for the phone records of two New York Times reporters whose story, prosecutors say, tipped off an Islamic charity to an upcoming raid.
Fitzgerald decided that as the issue was who in the administration had leaked Plame's identity, he and he alone, not the administration, would decide whether to subpoena journalists. Fitzgerald's investigation suddenly ballooned into one of the most expansive criminal investigations of the White House since Watergate and Monica Lewinsky - all because the CIA leaked a referral that the Justice Department thought too inconsequential to merit investigation.
Bush's critics predicted that the administration would be rocked by scandal, with top aides certain to go to jail.
http://www.examiner.com/a-836019~Exclusive...lame_probe.html
Jul 19, 2007 6:12 AM (1 day ago)
by Rowan Scarborough, The Examiner
(AP)
Not every exposed secret merits a referral, though, and few referrals lead to leak investigations. If Justice launched a criminal investigation based on every referral, it would need to hire hundreds more lawyers.
Even so, initiating a criminal referral is one of Langley's most powerful tools. Washington politicians know it, because senators and congressmen, by intent or inadvertently, sometimes discuss classified information in public. Right after the Sept. 11 attacks, Sen. Orrin Hatch disclosed classified evidence against al Qaeda he had just learned from the CIA. He later apologized. No one wants to be the subject of a criminal referral.
In July 2003, Dion reviewed one of about a hundred referrals he got each year. No bells went off. It did not appear to be an issue of grave national security. The CIA said one of its clandestine officers, Valerie Plame, had been named in a July 14, 2003, column by Robert Novak, an old Washington hand who mixes reporting with opinion.
The Novak column centered on Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, and his trip to Niger to investigate claims that Saddam Hussein approached that country to buy uranium. Wilson had written a now-famous op-ed in the New York Times that month revealing his secret mission. He said he found no evidence that Saddam had tried to buy uranium and maintained his mission rebutted a key line in President Bush's State of the Union address - the controversial "sixteen words."
But why would the administration send a former ambassador like Wilson to do intelligence work? Novak's column explained why: It quoted administration sources as saying his wife got him the job. Novak found her maiden name, Valerie Plame, in Wilson's Who's Who entry and mentioned her in his column.
The CIA cried foul. The Agency's general counsel office filed a referral describing an "unauthorized disclosure." The counsel informed Director George Tenet that the referral was headed to the Department of Justice. An Agency director has never stopped the process, but, in a sense, Tenet was tacitly approving an investigation of the White House.
The paperwork said the disclosure of Plame's name may have violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. Dion looked the referral over. His office sent the CIA an 11-point questionnaire, as is routine. One question was what effect the disclosure would have on national security.
A Justice source told me the CIA made a weak case that the unauthorized release of Plame's identity damaged national security. (In contrast, a subsequent leak from the CIA to the New York Times about the terrorist surveillance program did trigger an immediate probe.)
And it was unclear whether Plame qualified under the protection act because she worked under "non-official cover." She had traveled overseas in the guise of an employee of a marketing firm. Non-official cover is different than "official cover," which usually means the CIA officer is assigned to an embassy, and the host government is notified.
Dion, a prosecutor at Justice for more than 30 years, took no action on the CIA referral. He had no plans to start a formal investigation, a Justice source told me. The referral seemed so flimsy that the office of Attorney General John Ashcroft was not informed.
But then MSNBC broke the news of the referral on Sept. 28, two months after it was filed. The media and political pressure became intense. Before he went home that Friday, Dion decided to make the Novak column a criminal case.
Justice officials are certain that the CIA was responsible for the leak. Only Dion and a few others in his section knew of it. These people are perhaps the most-tight-lipped in government, because of the extremely sensitive matters they handle.
"I never talk to reporters," Dion once told a colleague. Once, at a Justice Department reception, a network news reporter introduced herself. Dion said, "Nice to meet you," and then walked away.
Justice officials also noted that the leak came just as the public learned that investigators had not found weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in Iraq, making the CIA's intelligence wrong again.
Less than a week later, a news report based on one anonymous source implicated two White House aides in the leak. They supposedly wanted to ruin Plame's career as revenge against Wilson for his criticism of President Bush. The Novak column was part of a White House conspiracy, Democrats charged. They demanded an independent investigator.
At the end of 2003, Justice turned the probe over to Patrick Fitzgerald, a career prosecutor serving as the U.S. attorney in Chicago. Fitzgerald quickly made a decision with far-reaching consequences for Washington's power players.
Normally, it is up to the attorney general to approve any subpoena directed at a news reporter. Such action is rarely taken, and the Justice Department had guidelines in place against the subpoena of reporters. The Bush Justice Department approved only one: for the phone records of two New York Times reporters whose story, prosecutors say, tipped off an Islamic charity to an upcoming raid.
Fitzgerald decided that as the issue was who in the administration had leaked Plame's identity, he and he alone, not the administration, would decide whether to subpoena journalists. Fitzgerald's investigation suddenly ballooned into one of the most expansive criminal investigations of the White House since Watergate and Monica Lewinsky - all because the CIA leaked a referral that the Justice Department thought too inconsequential to merit investigation.
Bush's critics predicted that the administration would be rocked by scandal, with top aides certain to go to jail.
http://www.examiner.com/a-836019~Exclusive...lame_probe.html
Valarie Plame Suit Dismissed - Federal Court Says They Have No Jurisdiction
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge dismissed former CIA operative Valerie Plame's lawsuit against members of the Bush administration Thursday, eliminating one of the last courtroom remnants of the leak scandal.
Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, had accused Vice President Dick Cheney and others of conspiring to leak her identity in 2003. Plame said that violated her privacy rights and was illegal retribution for her husband's criticism of the administration.
U.S. District Judge John D. Bates dismissed the case on jurisdictional grounds and said he would not express an opinion on the constitutional arguments. Bates dismissed the case against all defendants: Cheney, White House political adviser Karl Rove, former White House aide I. Lewis ''Scooter'' Libby and former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge dismissed former CIA operative Valerie Plame's lawsuit against members of the Bush administration Thursday, eliminating one of the last courtroom remnants of the leak scandal.
Plame, the wife of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, had accused Vice President Dick Cheney and others of conspiring to leak her identity in 2003. Plame said that violated her privacy rights and was illegal retribution for her husband's criticism of the administration.
U.S. District Judge John D. Bates dismissed the case on jurisdictional grounds and said he would not express an opinion on the constitutional arguments. Bates dismissed the case against all defendants: Cheney, White House political adviser Karl Rove, former White House aide I. Lewis ''Scooter'' Libby and former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage.
Now let's see; "Sources at Justice" think outing a CIA NOC and an entire Boilerplate Operation (Brewster Jennings) aimed at tracking WMD proliferation is "inconsequential". After all these "omnescient sources" at Justice know far more than the CIA about their own operations right? Keep trying Marine.
Let's see if I have this straight, someone who wouldn't even talk with reporters disclosed one of the most secretive processes in government because he was outraged by a leak?
I wonder what Marine would think if I had blown the cover of a CIA agent in a position similar to that of Valerie Plame by telling the NYT, when the impact of the story was to hurt, not help, the image of the White House.
If my action was found not to have violated any statutes, would he just say "What the hey, what you did was legal, thus okay."?
If my action was found not to have violated any statutes, would he just say "What the hey, what you did was legal, thus okay."?
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 20 2007, 11:15 AM)
I wonder what Marine would think if I had blown the cover of a CIA agent in a position similar to that of Valerie Plame by telling the NYT, when the impact of the story was to hurt, not help, the image of the White House.
If my action was found not to have violated any statutes, would he just say "What the hey, what you did was legal, thus okay."?
If my action was found not to have violated any statutes, would he just say "What the hey, what you did was legal, thus okay."?
According to the transcripts of the testimony Armitage didn't give out Valerie Plames name, he said Joe Wilson's wife got him the job because she worked as an analyst at the CIA. Novak got her name off of a vanity posting Joe Wilson did in Who's Who in the USA.
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious; the anybody but Bush crowd keep coming up with these things which are suspose to be the knock out punch to the Bush administration. Then the further we get into it the more trivial it all becomes. What ever happened to the Downing Street Memo, it was a gas too.
As you can see, it is useless. What is treason to any thinking person is just "hilarious" to "others".
QUOTE(Marine @ Jul 20 2007, 12:43 PM)
According to the transcripts of the testimony Armitage didn't give out Valerie Plames name, he said Joe Wilson's wife got him the job because she worked as an analyst at the CIA. Novak got her name off of a vanity posting Joe Wilson did in Who's Who in the USA.
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious...
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious...
And indeed your stuff is pretty hilarious. If the NYT releases secrets reflecting badly on the WH it is treason. If the WH releases secrets (or the identities of CIA agents) to discredit their critics it is simply no big deal, it is trivial.
I love your thing here about Armitage not giving out Plame's name, thus he (and apparently Rove and Libby) did not out her. No, it was Joe Wilson, by getting her listed in Who's Who! Her name is public! Why, I bet that their kids' teachers at school knew her name too! And that was the key bit of knowledge, her name, not that she worked at the CIA! Too funny, Marine, I have to admire how you put out this stuff with such a (metaphorically) straight face!
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 20 2007, 12:55 PM)
As you can see, it is useless. What is treason to any thinking person is just "hilarious" to "others".
Marine does not seem to know the difference between the fortunes of the Republic and those of George W. Bush.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 20 2007, 10:01 AM)
Marine does not seem to know the difference between the fortunes of the Republic and those of George W. Bush.
I agree. And it is not just him. I often run into this kind of thinking among even my republican friends. Many are fine people otherwise, but they equate Bush with America. When I tell them that of course Bush is not America, they just get mad. Trappings and symbolism seem to be all they care about. It is emotional and cannot be reasoned with. Only when they themselves experience a relevent traumatic event involving gross betrayal do their eyes sometimes suddenly slam open, such as the Tillman family who were many generations of Military folk.
QUOTE(Marine @ Jul 20 2007, 09:43 AM)
According to the transcripts of the testimony Armitage didn't give out Valerie Plames name, he said Joe Wilson's wife got him the job because she worked as an analyst at the CIA. Novak got her name off of a vanity posting Joe Wilson did in Who's Who in the USA.
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious; the anybody but Bush crowd keep coming up with these things which are suspose to be the knock out punch to the Bush administration. Then the further we get into it the more trivial it all becomes. What ever happened to the Downing Street Memo, it was a gas too.
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious; the anybody but Bush crowd keep coming up with these things which are suspose to be the knock out punch to the Bush administration. Then the further we get into it the more trivial it all becomes. What ever happened to the Downing Street Memo, it was a gas too.
How many wives does Joe Wilson have? It's a matter of public record, it's an ID. Some of your comments make me question your claimed history and profession, if you can't see you're talking sh*t you ne ver dealt with classified materials.
QUOTE(Marine @ Jul 20 2007, 11:43 AM)
According to the transcripts of the testimony Armitage didn't give out Valerie Plames name, he said Joe Wilson's wife got him the job because she worked as an analyst at the CIA. Novak got her name off of a vanity posting Joe Wilson did in Who's Who in the USA.
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious; the anybody but Bush crowd keep coming up with these things which are suspose to be the knock out punch to the Bush administration. Then the further we get into it the more trivial it all becomes. What ever happened to the Downing Street Memo, it was a gas too.
Personally I think most of this stuff is hillarious; the anybody but Bush crowd keep coming up with these things which are suspose to be the knock out punch to the Bush administration. Then the further we get into it the more trivial it all becomes. What ever happened to the Downing Street Memo, it was a gas too.
I'm sure you've heard that old saying, "This is the straw that broke the camel's back!" After 6+ years, we're getting closer & closer to that last straw, no matter how trivial it may seem when it first hits the news.
QUOTE(grammydidi @ Jul 20 2007, 07:27 PM)
I'm sure you've heard that old saying, "This is the straw that broke the camel's back!" After 6+ years, we're getting closer & closer to that last straw, no matter how trivial it may seem when it first hits the news.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
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