http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1998/07/08/...main13502.shtml

"OLD SOLDIERS - Many former soldiers – even those over 50 years old -- who thought they had fulfilled their military obligations are being called for active duty again. Bob Simon reports."

Bump.

Damn, you say!

Did anyone just see the segment on the back door draft?
They are calling up 55 year old reservists, disabled vets,
people who resigned (they tell them they don't have a record
of their resignation). I think Bush and Cheney ought
to be called up. And put on the front line.

I've been hearing about this lately. I remember reading an article where some men who are in their later years thought they were honorably discharged and they were called up to go to Iraq and ran to Canada. I also remember hearing about a fifty-two year old man who was in the hospital and still had on his braclette!

They had a 55 year old woman with grey hair on there.
One lady just had a baby and will be gone for a year
and a half. Her baby won't even know her when she gets back.

They just put the story on their website:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/03/...ain658994.shtml

Another burning question--Did they have to subtitle Bob Dylan? (60 Minutes isn't on over on the West Coast yet).

I was so upset about the draft thing that I paused the show
and haven't watched it, yet. Sorry!

I was watching with amusement the 60 minutes show knowing I could be recalled.

I knew GWB had to have a front door draft or activate the Individual Ready Reservist (IRR), retirees and Officers that didn't resign their commissions.

I see by the show that resigning a commission is a techicality that's irrelavant.

I wonder if they voted for GWB.

I recall that GWB during the election accidently told an audience that there would be a draft. The entire audience went silent while one of GWB handler's was whispering the correct words "there will not be a draft".

GWB finally realized the error and corrected his bushism. Immediately after his correction the crowd started wildly clapping and waving for the Commander in Chief.

If I live to be 100 and always believe that this "Freudian slip" was because GWB knew they were going to call up the (oldest to the young) in the IRR after the election.

If I get called up I will report and I will delight in meeting everyone who didn't vote or voted for GWB and is also called up for IRAQ duty.

You will be surprised to know they didn't have to subtitle.

I watched the show, it was sad. The 30 something year old girl who is leaving 3 children, one seven months old, said the two youngest probably wouldn't even know her when she returned. And there were a few that were not close to the physical shape needed. No offense to them, but I wouldn't want them watching my back. Bush is sending them in to be massacred.

I told my Viet Namn veteran husband he may want to avoid signing any special letters he may get. He said, no, they are just calling up officers, I said, yeah, right. Some people trust the news too much. He is a proud Kerry supporter, but does put too much emphasis on what he does or does not see in the news.

I think Kerry supporters should be exempt from any draft (back door or not). Send the Bushees, hell, send the entire Bushee families, grandmas, grandpas, etc. But leave the ones who were intelligent enough to vote against the * home!

I watched 60 minutes and I was totally appalled that a woman left her infant son and 22 month old child because she was called up for service. She thought she was out of it. She was on the verge of crying. Then another man who couldn't even walk and said he was tricked into thinking he was through and was called up. He said he had a disability and they would have to come get him. He wouldn't go on his own. He said he couldn't even walk much less go into the war. Then a 4ft. woman was called up. she couldn't even hold her gun. It was bigger than she was. Another 55 year old woman said she would gladly go to defend her country. GIVE ME A BREAK! NEXT THEY WILL BE CALLING UP 70, 80 AND 90 YEAR OLDS! THEY ARE DESPARATE, THERE WILL BE A DRAFT AGAIN I'M SURE! SOME ARE GOING TO CANADA!

ISN'T THAT ENOUGH TO GET KERRY SUPPORTERS TO GET UP AND PROTEST TO GET DUBYA OUT OF THE WHITEHOUSE? HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S DOING!

No..... in fact, after being so impressed with Bob Dylan in the 70, I still have all his records, bought when living in Europe. Five years ago, I knew my English was improving because I could understand what he was singing

I'm 54, retired four years ago after 30 years in the Marines.

They know where to find me if they need an old comm center chief or in a pinch radioman.

And Bush was off snorting coke during the time he was supposed
to serve. What a low life.

Believe me, they won't have you doing that kind of work. You'll be on the
front line.

What do you think a radioman does? Wouldn't be the first time someone shot at me, the snipers try to pick off the radioman because he's the guy calling in "Lightning from the Sky" and "Thunder from the Sea".(2nd ANGLICO)

Words from my dad tonight

25 years air force and 20 years civil service

"That bastard down there in DC is screwing the whole dam country.
Trying to call up people who gave up their comission and saying it
was a paper work error. Bulll Sjite !!! Buch of jack asses that lie
We should bring back our forces to retake our own country!""


My dad never talks that strong. I guess he was p o

Some of the folks in the story should have anticipated the possibility of being recalled - if you don't separate or retire, you are subject to service.

But I find it utterly shameful that some who are retired or who resigned their commissions are being recalled. Hopefully, the lawsuits to prevent their recall will be successful.

When I see a 55 year old, 4'8", white-haired woman in a helmet and khakis, preparing for a trip to Iraq that she describes in one word as "scary", it becomes plainly evident to me that despite the assurances of GW Bush and the Pentagon, the manpower (and grandmapower) needed to sustain US military presence in Iraq will require a draft within the next year.

And let's not leave out Iran. Or North Korea. Or France.....

Yes it is enough to get the 56 mil who voted for Kerry to protest, however, first they all need to be informed.....How many of us belong to this forum compared to 56 million who voted for Kerry.....millions of people pay no attention, nor have the time to pay attention, watch televison or the news, ....millions do not get on line to read this and other news....it is up to people like us in this forum, and others in other forums like this, and the DU to get the word out, then we can have a massive protest....This whole thing is a joke..it reminds me of after the 9/11 attacks how the the Bush administration told everyone to wrap thier homes in Duct tape..they are a bunch of morons..or are they? they won an election by lies and deception, and fraud...what the Democrats need is a Karl Rove of their own...I still cannot believe the American people are so gullible to believe all the lies and deception put out there by this administration..goes to show you half the population has no education.

Do you honestly believe that Bush is the one calling all the shots? He is so controlled and is a total puppet.....

I want Bush and his daughters to serve NOW. If he can
dish it out, then he'd better be willing to take it.

Well, now we know the secret to the looming Social Security debt. Send all the upper middle-aged people over to Iraq. If you kill 'em off, you don't need to pay 'em benefits, now do ya?

I have not ceased to be flabbergasted that half your country was bumbleheaded enough to vote for that blithering moron.

No, I'll say it. Stupid enough to vote for him. You've got 47 more months of this kind of policies. I wonder if there will even be a USA left. Maybe not a world, for that matter.

well... why wait to be called? sounds like you're all for it. go volunteer in the place of the mother with a newborn infant.

I'm sure MOST 55 yr old vets do NOT feel the same way you do.

THanx

This whole story makes me ask:

How many of these people in the Individual Ready Reserves, that are being recalled, voted for Bush? ( Hate to say it but WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!)

How many of these people are Officers and how many are enlisted and for that matter how many are disabled?

Are we are really recalling disabled vets to serve. If so how much does one person have to give?

FRANCE??????? attention, we still have a guillotine!!!!!

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead


http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/masters.html

Copyright © 1963; renewed 1991 Special Rider M

The back door draft is not limited to the "inactive reserve".

=============================================

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/06/national/06soldiers.html

December 6, 2004
Eight Soldiers Plan to Sue Over Army’s Stop-Loss Policy
By MONICA DAVEY

ORRILTON, Ark., Dec. 3 - The eight soldiers come from places scattered across the country, from this small town an hour northwest of Little Rock to cities in Arizona, New Jersey and New York. In Iraq and Kuwait, where they all work now, most of them hold different jobs in different units, miles apart. Most have never met.

But the eight share a bond of anger: each says he has been prevented from coming home for good by an Army policy that has barred thousands of soldiers from leaving Iraq this year even though the terms of enlistment they signed up for have run out. And each of these eight soldiers has separately taken the extraordinary step of seeking legal help, through late-night Internet searches and e-mail inquiries from their camps in the conflict zone, or through rounds of phone calls by an equally frustrated wife or mother back home.

With legal support from the Center for Constitutional Rights, a liberal-leaning public interest group, lawyers for the eight men say they will file a lawsuit on Monday in federal court in Washington challenging the Army policy known as stop-loss.

Last spring, the Army instituted the policy for all troops headed to Iraq and Afghanistan, called it a way to promote continuity within deployed units and to avoid bringing new soldiers in to fill gaps left in units by those who would otherwise have gone home when their enlistments ran out. If a soldier's unit is still in Iraq or Afghanistan, that soldier cannot leave even when his or her enlistment time runs out.

Since then, a handful of National Guardsmen who received orders to report for duty in California and Oregon have taken the policy to court, but the newest lawsuit is the first such challenge by a group of soldiers. And these soldiers are already overseas - transporting supplies, working radio communications and handling military contracts, somewhere in the desert.

"You should know I'm not against the war," said David W. Qualls, one of the plaintiffs and a former full-time soldier who signed up in July 2003 for a one-year stint in the Arkansas National Guard but now expects to be in Iraq until next year.

"This just isn't about that. This is a matter of fairness. My job was to go over and perform my duties under the contract I signed. But my year is up and it's been up. Now I believe that they should honor their end of the contract." Some military experts described the soldiers' challenge as both surprising and telling, given the tenor of military life, where soldiers are trained throughout their careers to follow their commanders' orders.

These soldiers' public objections are only the latest signs of rising tension within the ranks. In October, members of an Army Reserve unit refused a mission, saying it was too dangerous. And in recent months, some members of the Individual Ready Reserve, many of whom say they thought they had finished their military careers, have objected to being called back to war and requested exemptions.

Mr. Qualls, 35, who says he sometimes speaks his mind even to his superiors, is the only one among the eight whose real name will appear on the lawsuit against the Army's military leaders. The rest, who fear retribution from the Army - including more dangerous assignments in Iraq - are described only as John Does 1 through 7.

Aside from the shared expectation that they would have gone home by now, these soldiers' situations could not be more varied, as interviews with their families made clear.

One is a member of an Army band, ordered to travel Iraq this year performing music. Another is an Army reservist in a New Jersey transportation company with 18 years of service behind him. Another is an Arizona National Guardsman in his 20's, whose wife says he sounded subdued, even tearful, when she spoke to him in recent days on a phone line from Kuwait.

"The whole morale in his unit is on the floor," she said on the condition that she not be named, to avoid revealing her husband's identity.

Although Army officials said they could not comment on a lawsuit, particularly one they had not yet seen, they described the stop-loss policy, which was first instituted during the first Persian Gulf war more than a decade ago, as a crucial lesson learned in Vietnam, where troops were rotated out just as they had become acclimated to a treacherous environment.

"If someone next to you is new, it can be dangerous," said Lt. Col. Pamela Hart, an Army spokeswoman. "The bottom line of this is unit cohesion. This way, the units deploy together, train together, fight together and come home together."

Some soldiers like Mr. Qualls, though, say they wonder if the rule is not just another way to keep troop numbers high, particularly at a time when the military has been stretched thin and the number of troops in Iraq is expected to rise still more, to 150,000, in the coming weeks.

In recent months, at any given moment, the stop-loss policy has affected about 7,000 soldiers who had been planning to retire, leave the military or move to a different military job. The rule affects soldiers whose enlistments are scheduled to end within 90 days before their unit is deployed, those already deployed, and those whose term would end up to 90 days after their unit returns. On Friday, Army officials said they did not know the total number who had been affected so far. No date has been announced to end the policy.

Jules Lobel, a lawyer for one of the eight soldiers, described the central complaint this way: They were fraudulently induced to sign up, Mr. Lobel said, because nothing in their enlistment contract mentioned that they might be involuntarily kept on.

But experts not involved in the case say the government has generally been granted broad legal authority when it comes to the obligations of soldiers in matters of national security and times of conflict.

"The courts have traditionally ceded to the military," said Gary D. Solis, who teaches law at the United States Military Academy at West Point. "Even if the gents win at the trial level, the government is not going to quit. They cannot afford to. There is a potential cascade effect here."

Phillip Carter, a former Army captain and an expert in military and legal issues, said: "Rarely have we seen people win such cases. At best, this is symbolic protest."

The soldiers and their families, however, say they do not see it that way. Their hopes are far more practical. They want to go home.

Mr. Qualls was one of the first soldiers to find Mr. Lobel and Staughton Lynd, another lawyer now working with the Center for Constitutional Rights on the case and whose antiwar activities date to the Vietnam era. As Mr. Qualls wandered the Internet one day in Iraq, he said, he came across news reports of a National Guardsman in California who this summer had become the first to challenge stop-loss in court.

Mr. Qualls said he immediately began sending e-mail messages that guardsman's lawyer, Michael S. Sorgen, and was eventually referred to Mr. Lynd and Mr. Lobel, who were separately beginning to hear from other soldiers who had found them in recent weeks in a variety of ways.

Some of the soldiers e-mailed or called the National Lawyers Guild Military Law Task Force or the G. I. Rights hot line and were referred to the lawyers, Mr. Lynd said. The wife of one soldier said she handled all the research for his case herself, studying his enlistment contract and newspaper clippings and finally coming across Mr. Lynd's name. And a 54-year-old mother from Long Island said she began making calls on her son's behalf, first to her representatives in Congress and later to anyone she could find.

"My son," she said, "is not someone afraid to follow orders and fulfill his obligation. He's a very compliant soldier, but he feels like he's being stabbed in the back."

One soldier's wife, from New York City, said she received an e-mail message from Military Families Speak Out, an antiwar group, about the possibility of a lawsuit, and urged her husband to be part of it.

Asked whether antiwar forces were instigating this lawsuit, Mr. Lobel, who like his co-counsel describes himself as openly opposed to the war in Iraq, laughed and said no. The soldiers and their families came on their own, he said.

"They were desperately looking for some way to solve their situations, and it looks like most of the people they found who were trying to counsel or represent people in their situation were antiwar people," Mr. Lobel said. "But to me, the most interesting aspect of this whole thing is that it's not a question of antiwar or pro-war. It's not a question of red states or blue states. This stop-loss question is just about fairness."

As part of a rest-and-relaxation leave allowed some soldiers, Mr. Qualls arrived at his modest Morrilton home just in time for Thanksgiving supper with his wife, Cheryl, and their daughter, Kelly.

Seated at his computer on Friday, he fiddled with a pen as he pondered whether he might face retribution for taking legal action, something he says he told his unit commanders nothing about before he left. He said his family had struggled financially and emotionally with him gone, and he has to put them first now.

"The other thing," Mr. Qualls said, "is you've got thousands of people over there in the same situation as me and somebody's got to do something. Why not have it be me? I can't worry about what people will say."

Mr. Qualls is due back at his radio post on a base north of Baghdad this coming weekend. He said he hoped a judge would issue a temporary restraining order and allow him to stay home. But if he loses, he said, he will get on that plane.

Things are getting more and more out of hand over there.

To aimiecp: No, I don't believe Bush is the one calling the shots, but whoever is calling the shots in this country is letting him think he is. But I don't believe, either, that it stops there. To my thinking it's global, but whoever that global power might be is something I have yet to investigate.

It would be my preference that the military went back to the way it was when I first joined the Marine Corps. If a woman had a baby she went home and was out of the military.

Nothing against women but the PC movement got women stuck in positions like this. You've come a long way baby.

Well, I'm a newbie to this forum, but I've just got to add my dollar-two-ninety-eight. I seem to recall that prior to the collapse of the Third Reich, Hitler began drafting both children and old men for the Wehrmacht. His Thousand-Year-Reich was collapsing in just 12 years, and he was desperate to hold onto what he knew was a losing war.

It seems to me that the current president is afflicted with the same megalomaniacal personality--and he's now inflicting his grandiose war plans on those who honorably served, and were honorably discharged. He escaped active duty service during the Vietnam War through political cronyism and favoritism. It then becomes quite apparent that our current president has a complete and absolute disdain, nay HATE, for anyone who served in the services when he managed to escape said service.

And to watch him strut around like some banty rooster in his flight suit makes my stomach retch!

Not too shabby for a first post! Welcome aboard.

I doubt very much that this is some nerfarious plot, rather, it is much more probably a not terribly competent bureaucracy (the Department of the Army, in this case) run amok.

They're recalling people who are in their databases as being eligible for recall. Age, frankly, is irrelevant. The older woman woman profiles on 60 minutes never retired, and never separated from service. Thus, she's still on the books as eligible to deploy.

For other people, such as the former Captain who had served his time, and resigned his commission as he separated, that sounds like a serious SNAFU. Recall that first the Army declared that he had never served active duty at all; similarly, the disabled helo pilot said that the personnel folks didn't have a copy of his DD 214 on file.

This sounds like the typical personnel screw ups - I audited my records prior to a recent promotion board, and found they were missing my master's degree, one OPR and one medal. That, as most military people would I think agree, is pretty typical of the personnel commands throughout all the services.

In this case, the Army has probably decided it needs to be aggressive about the IRR. Clearly, they're going far overboard regarding people who are genuinely separated from service, however. With luck, the legal system will do the right thing.

Given your experience, can you comment on post 32 in this thread?

Excerpt: "But the eight share a bond of anger: each says he has been prevented from coming home for good by an Army policy that has barred thousands of soldiers from leaving Iraq this year even though the terms of enlistment they signed up for have run out. And each of these eight soldiers has separately taken the extraordinary step of seeking legal help, through late-night Internet searches and e-mail inquiries from their camps in the conflict zone, or through rounds of phone calls by an equally frustrated wife or mother back home."

isn't it sad, that CBS story. Can't the pentagon find one good man or woman to take that woman's place with the kids...
the thing people don't see is that the bushies are using an all-out war mentality, but without the political courage to ask for a draft. All the high tech stuff in the world can't replace troops on the ground..
on this website i said that we would be going door to door to root out weaon cache's.
When senior army staff said it would take 570,000 troops to hold Iraq they knew what they were talking about. It was rumsfeld and gingrinch (in an advisory role) that pursued the undermanned "shock and awe" policy.
the idea that bombs from above without ground intelligence means collateral damage to the max.
going after Kofi Annan just when we need the U.N. to help run the elections tells you the lack of political savvy of the neo-cons. yea, the U.N. made a mess of the oil for food program with the Iraqi's, but we need to make friends and deal with reality on the ground now that we are stuck there.
And let's not dance for joy that we have substituted drug lords for the taliban in afghanistan... we needed to take out the taliban and al quaida, but this is a horrible price to have to pay...
pray for peace.

Welcome aboard, Fozzleroy. I look forward to hearing more from you.

I don't have personal knowledge of the Army stop loss policy, but it's most probably like the Air Force (on those occasions when we have implemented such an order; we don't have it in effect now).

That being said, Stop Loss policies are intended to do just that - prevent people from separating from service. They can apply across the board to everyone, or may just aply to critical specialties.

As far as deployment lengths are concerned, there is unfortunately no legally-binding promise to servicemembers that a given deployment will be limited to x amount of time. At any time, they can change the length you're deployed, which obviously sucks if it happens. I've been lucky that both of my deployments to the Midle East (and my one PCS tour) started and stopped on schedule, but right now it's got to be pretty depressing to be a marine or soldier and be stuck in limbo.

Actually, its 49 months and 15 days.

Here's another one who should be shipped out...


Condi Rice tries to dress in post-Iraq War camouflage-chic, but ends up looking like a panda-hugging environmentalist

And EVERY SINGLE IDIOT WHO VOTED FOR BUSH. They should all
go serve.

A back door draft. I left the Army via ETS 29 years ago. I had 11 years at that time (NO, I had no desire to remain for the next 9). I wonder where that puts those of us who ETS'd way back then--in the current scheme of things?

You would think all these pro-Bush, pro-war fanatics would be glad to serve! But no, being the total hypocrites that they are, they expect others to do their dirty work for them -- all so they can drive their big ole Hummers here at home. Shame on everyone who voted for neo-con nut-case Bush.

What a mess.

Does your dad have a PC/internet? Invite him to join. If not, get him on with you sometime and have him post some thoughts. Would like to hear from the older generation.

After reading Kitty Kelley's book The Family , I'm convinced that "W" IS the one in charge. I know he seems so idiotic and just plain stupid in his responses, but the man is one vindictive son-of-a-"B", and gets real mean when he's challenged. Once he's fired up, he makes very calculating decisions in order to do the most damage. You might say--kind of like Hitler!!

Remember the debates? When our man Kerry, went after Bush's record--Bush broke his own rules to attack Kerry (I believe that was debate #2--the "town hall meeting"). He showed his REAL self in that debate. He's a very dangerous man with a capital "D"!!!!!!!!

After reading Kitty Kelley's book The Family , I'm convinced that "W" IS the one in charge. I know he seems so idiotic and just plain stupid in his responses, but the man is one vindictive son-of-a-"B", and gets real mean when he's challenged. Once he's fired up, he makes very calculating decisions in order to do the most damage. You might say--kind of like Hitler!!

Remember the debates? When our man Kerry, went after Bush's record--Bush broke his own rules to attack Kerry (I believe that was debate #2--the "town hall meeting"). He showed his REAL self in that debate. He's a very dangerous man with a capital "D"!!!!!!!! Yes, he IS the one in charge, and is REALLY calling the shots!