The radical gay rights leadership safe in the gay ghettos needs a reality check.
This was not just a one battle lost, but a near Armageddon. In one election, gay rights has been constrained and limited more than it ever has been in history. Now laws are written into the books and amendments passed. That clearly and specifically eliminate gay civil rights without quarter. The blame for this lies squarely on their shoulders. To push gay marriage now was the wrong issue, at the worst possible time during an absolutely critical election.
Instead of facing the horrible reality for what it is. They make plans to attack a couple of the amendments based on technicalities, and for what? So they can be rewritten so solid and airtight. They can never be overturned, even when times get better? I guess the "We're victims" mentality is so engrained in gay culture. We can accept no blame for anything. That goes wrong. It's always someone else's fault.
Bottom line is the gay movement needs to re-order it's priorities. We have to understand the new reality we face. The religious right is NOT done. They have only just begun.
They will need time to absorb the enormity of their victory. They just received the controls of more federal power. Than they ever have had. They have received almost total control of federal money, and federal law enforcement. Not only that, they have received a strong endorsement from a majority of this nation to do what they will re: gay rights. They received that endorsement from all groups. This wasn't a white rural thing, it was blacks and Hispanics too.
Maybe now the idea that minorities are naturally more sympathetic to the gay cause can die. It's clear they have no more sympathy. Than any other group of people. When it comes to despising gays. Black and latins do it as well as white Christians do.
What happened in this election was a first step. What is so frightening about it is it showed them just how powerful they are. What is so sad, is we cannot see how weak we are.
With this election, gays cannot consider themselves safe ANYWHERE.
The Attorney General is going to unleash his morals brigade unfettered. The only thing that might slow them down is the question of where to start. Should they hit at the heart of gaydom and institute criminal corruption investigations in all major urban areas. Just to cow what they see as the enemy. Urban areas they deem too friendly to a decadent corrupt lifestyle.
Perhaps now is a good time to reign in the rampant corruption in AIDS charities nationwide.
Of course the religious right could just decide to go Mideast on our asses, and cut off our heads. They now control the power of the federal purse. Hey why not completely eliminate ADAP? After all the AIDS in their view is sin. How long will it be before they ask themselves. Why are we paying the wages of their sin. They chose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Or maybe they'll get even tougher and decide to declare an AIDS emergency in any big gay ghetto, and institute martial law. This way they won't have to deal with any legal challenges from those gays and their annoying lawsuits. In much of this country many a hunter has dreamed of having a hunting season for fags. With martial law instituted to protect this nation from moral depravity many a redneck's dream would come true.
With their hatred now clear, and more intolerant than ever. From the urban ghettos where the gay leadership dwells. We continue to hear the same nonsense. How we must push forward with "our" agenda.
What agenda? The religious right took our agenda and ripped it to shreds. One thing gay people have to realize everywhere is we are not a people or power apart. Our freedom has always depended on "them."
In the past their ignorance of us allowed us to gain many of the freedoms we have. However thanks to our loudmouth ways, they are ignorant of us no more.
I guess safe in the urban ghettos, gays thought no one could hear or see them, and if they could they could NOT touch us.
Well they've proved they could touch us.
It's time to realize just how far out of the mainstream the "gay agenda" was. It isn't even on the map for most of America. Compromise is only possible. When there is common ground. Can we really find common ground with people filled with so much raw hatred and bigotry? Are WE REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK. We can take them on and win?
We have to accept. These are the people. Who control how much of the gay agenda will be allowed. Our allies in the Democratic party can't be expected to sacrifice much more. Than they just did.
Because of us, the Democratic party took a beating. The whole party is teetering on becoming irrelevant to the federal process. Yet we pretend like we are power players, and insist our voice will be heard. Why? We'll be lucky if we even have a seat at the table at the next major democratic party get together. They were clear, Feinstein, Barney Franks, Clinton. It was the gay agenda. That was at fault.
We have to stop pretending we are 10% of the population, and accept that based on the last few elections. We can martial a vote of no more than 1-2%, and only in areas. Where our vote makes no difference nationally. The only ones fooled by our numbers inflation was us.
We have to lower our profile in all ways. We need to refocus just what the hell we're fighting for. It's not marriage anymore, it's long term survival and bare minimum acceptance.
Jettison the divisions of our name. Has anyone seen transgenders provide strength in numbers and money equivalent to the visibility and support the gay rights movement sacrifices for them. Last I heard a transgender was someone. Who wanted to switch sexes and still fit into the str8 world. A women becomes a man to sleep with a woman. This isn't a lesbian thing. So why does the gay rights movement embrace it? And where the hell were the bisexuals? I'll tell you where. They were in the voting booth pulling the Republican leaver. They'd rather die than be associated with a gay person man or woman. If we want to regain the acceptance we lost.
We need to be crystal clear what gay is. Men and women engaging in consensual relationships with members of their own sex. That's it. The easier it is for us to be defined. The easier it is to accept us.
Drop the in your face confrontation style. Stop contemptuously attacking the religious right. Gays have to stop spitting on their bible. It should no longer be funny for gays make religious jokes. You fuel their fear and hatred by letting them know. You think their faith is foolish, their beliefs childish. They deserve respect. If only for the power respecting them gives us.
Maybe it's time we pick one up and read a bible from cover to cover. IF we did. We'd find the ammunition we need to fight them. The scripture is what they believe. Scripture is the greatest weapon to fight them.
In the bible are far more words about acceptance and love thy neighbor, and casting no stones in judgment. Out of the hundreds of thousands of words in the bible. Only a hundred or so deal with homosexuality, and not all of it is clear.
The words of Jesus are the salvation for the gay rights struggle. For he preaches equality, fairness, justice for all and above all love.
However we have been far too busy partying like there is no tomorrow in the gay ghettos. Our friend "Tina" keeps the social calender too full to bother with such boring stuff.
I just hope we wake up soon. Just what do you think happened anyway. Did you think. That when you left the small towns behind. That it became as inconsequential to reality as it was to you in your small gay neighborhoods. Well this election was a notice to us all.
There will be no acceptance of the gay agenda as it is. Push it anymore, and even less will be accepted.
This is not about what WE feel is right and wrong, but power raw power to make. What you believe the standards for right and wrong. We do NOT can NOT set the standards. We cannot chose the battles.
We need to martial our strength and fight the fundamental battle again. Which is gays are people too, no different than anyone else. If we can get that fundamental accepted as it was before. From there we can get equal rights, BUT NOT BEFORE.
What the religious right thinks now matters very much to gay rights. They are set to lay down the law, and I don't see much standing in their way.
Full Version: Gays needs to accept new reality
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Civil Rights and Civil Liberties > Civil Rights and Civil Liberties Archive
Well I for one am not ready to roll over and play dead for anyone. I will fight for civil rights and aids funding till I am dead. I am not about to watch this country go back to what it was like when I came out at 15. I have been out for 31 years and the fight is ours and we have to make it count. Give up if you want to and watch the rest of the owlrd laugh at us.
Jesus, when did we become so afraid of a vocal, bigoted minority?
The religious right does not speak for a majority of Americans, even if they are foolish enough to believe they do.
We in the gay community, progressives and other fair-minded individuals and groups must fight them at every turn to prevent them from imposing their will on America and making it into a theocracy.
The same-sex marriage movement is not monolithic, controlled by one person or a small cabal. It will move ahead at its own pace.
Don't panic. Less than a year later, same-sex marriage is a virtual non-issue in Massachusetts.
The religious right does not speak for a majority of Americans, even if they are foolish enough to believe they do.
We in the gay community, progressives and other fair-minded individuals and groups must fight them at every turn to prevent them from imposing their will on America and making it into a theocracy.
The same-sex marriage movement is not monolithic, controlled by one person or a small cabal. It will move ahead at its own pace.
Don't panic. Less than a year later, same-sex marriage is a virtual non-issue in Massachusetts.
QUOTE(johnnyincentx @ Nov 6 2004, 02:57 PM)
The radical gay rights leadership safe in the gay ghettos needs a reality check.
This was not just a one battle lost, but a near Armageddon. In one election, gay rights has been constrained and limited more than it ever has been in history. Now laws are written into the books and amendments passed. That clearly and specifically eliminate gay civil rights without quarter. The blame for this lies squarely on their shoulders. To push gay marriage now was the wrong issue, at the worst possible time during an absolutely critical election.
Instead of facing the horrible reality for what it is. They make plans to attack a couple of the amendments based on technicalities, and for what? So they can be rewritten so solid and airtight. They can never be overturned, even when times get better? I guess the "We're victims" mentality is so engrained in gay culture. We can accept no blame for anything. That goes wrong. It's always someone else's fault.
Bottom line is the gay movement needs to re-order it's priorities. We have to understand the new reality we face. The religious right is NOT done. They have only just begun.
They will need time to absorb the enormity of their victory. They just received the controls of more federal power. Than they ever have had. They have received almost total control of federal money, and federal law enforcement. Not only that, they have received a strong endorsement from a majority of this nation to do what they will re: gay rights. They received that endorsement from all groups. This wasn't a white rural thing, it was blacks and Hispanics too.
Maybe now the idea that minorities are naturally more sympathetic to the gay cause can die. It's clear they have no more sympathy. Than any other group of people. When it comes to despising gays. Black and latins do it as well as white Christians do.
What happened in this election was a first step. What is so frightening about it is it showed them just how powerful they are. What is so sad, is we cannot see how weak we are.
With this election, gays cannot consider themselves safe ANYWHERE.
The Attorney General is going to unleash his morals brigade unfettered. The only thing that might slow them down is the question of where to start. Should they hit at the heart of gaydom and institute criminal corruption investigations in all major urban areas. Just to cow what they see as the enemy. Urban areas they deem too friendly to a decadent corrupt lifestyle.
Perhaps now is a good time to reign in the rampant corruption in AIDS charities nationwide.
Of course the religious right could just decide to go Mideast on our asses, and cut off our heads. They now control the power of the federal purse. Hey why not completely eliminate ADAP? After all the AIDS in their view is sin. How long will it be before they ask themselves. Why are we paying the wages of their sin. They chose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Or maybe they'll get even tougher and decide to declare an AIDS emergency in any big gay ghetto, and institute martial law. This way they won't have to deal with any legal challenges from those gays and their annoying lawsuits. In much of this country many a hunter has dreamed of having a hunting season for fags. With martial law instituted to protect this nation from moral depravity many a redneck's dream would come true.
With their hatred now clear, and more intolerant than ever. From the urban ghettos where the gay leadership dwells. We continue to hear the same nonsense. How we must push forward with "our" agenda.
What agenda? The religious right took our agenda and ripped it to shreds. One thing gay people have to realize everywhere is we are not a people or power apart. Our freedom has always depended on "them."
In the past their ignorance of us allowed us to gain many of the freedoms we have. However thanks to our loudmouth ways, they are ignorant of us no more.
I guess safe in the urban ghettos, gays thought no one could hear or see them, and if they could they could NOT touch us.
Well they've proved they could touch us.
It's time to realize just how far out of the mainstream the "gay agenda" was. It isn't even on the map for most of America. Compromise is only possible. When there is common ground. Can we really find common ground with people filled with so much raw hatred and bigotry? Are WE REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK. We can take them on and win?
We have to accept. These are the people. Who control how much of the gay agenda will be allowed. Our allies in the Democratic party can't be expected to sacrifice much more. Than they just did.
Because of us, the Democratic party took a beating. The whole party is teetering on becoming irrelevant to the federal process. Yet we pretend like we are power players, and insist our voice will be heard. Why? We'll be lucky if we even have a seat at the table at the next major democratic party get together. They were clear, Feinstein, Barney Franks, Clinton. It was the gay agenda. That was at fault.
We have to stop pretending we are 10% of the population, and accept that based on the last few elections. We can martial a vote of no more than 1-2%, and only in areas. Where our vote makes no difference nationally. The only ones fooled by our numbers inflation was us.
We have to lower our profile in all ways. We need to refocus just what the hell we're fighting for. It's not marriage anymore, it's long term survival and bare minimum acceptance.
Jettison the divisions of our name. Has anyone seen transgenders provide strength in numbers and money equivalent to the visibility and support the gay rights movement sacrifices for them. Last I heard a transgender was someone. Who wanted to switch sexes and still fit into the str8 world. A women becomes a man to sleep with a woman. This isn't a lesbian thing. So why does the gay rights movement embrace it? And where the hell were the bisexuals? I'll tell you where. They were in the voting booth pulling the Republican leaver. They'd rather die than be associated with a gay person man or woman. If we want to regain the acceptance we lost.
We need to be crystal clear what gay is. Men and women engaging in consensual relationships with members of their own sex. That's it. The easier it is for us to be defined. The easier it is to accept us.
Drop the in your face confrontation style. Stop contemptuously attacking the religious right. Gays have to stop spitting on their bible. It should no longer be funny for gays make religious jokes. You fuel their fear and hatred by letting them know. You think their faith is foolish, their beliefs childish. They deserve respect. If only for the power respecting them gives us.
Maybe it's time we pick one up and read a bible from cover to cover. IF we did. We'd find the ammunition we need to fight them. The scripture is what they believe. Scripture is the greatest weapon to fight them.
In the bible are far more words about acceptance and love thy neighbor, and casting no stones in judgment. Out of the hundreds of thousands of words in the bible. Only a hundred or so deal with homosexuality, and not all of it is clear.
The words of Jesus are the salvation for the gay rights struggle. For he preaches equality, fairness, justice for all and above all love.
However we have been far too busy partying like there is no tomorrow in the gay ghettos. Our friend "Tina" keeps the social calender too full to bother with such boring stuff.
I just hope we wake up soon. Just what do you think happened anyway. Did you think. That when you left the small towns behind. That it became as inconsequential to reality as it was to you in your small gay neighborhoods. Well this election was a notice to us all.
There will be no acceptance of the gay agenda as it is. Push it anymore, and even less will be accepted.
This is not about what WE feel is right and wrong, but power raw power to make. What you believe the standards for right and wrong. We do NOT can NOT set the standards. We cannot chose the battles.
We need to martial our strength and fight the fundamental battle again. Which is gays are people too, no different than anyone else. If we can get that fundamental accepted as it was before. From there we can get equal rights, BUT NOT BEFORE.
What the religious right thinks now matters very much to gay rights. They are set to lay down the law, and I don't see much standing in their way.
This was not just a one battle lost, but a near Armageddon. In one election, gay rights has been constrained and limited more than it ever has been in history. Now laws are written into the books and amendments passed. That clearly and specifically eliminate gay civil rights without quarter. The blame for this lies squarely on their shoulders. To push gay marriage now was the wrong issue, at the worst possible time during an absolutely critical election.
Instead of facing the horrible reality for what it is. They make plans to attack a couple of the amendments based on technicalities, and for what? So they can be rewritten so solid and airtight. They can never be overturned, even when times get better? I guess the "We're victims" mentality is so engrained in gay culture. We can accept no blame for anything. That goes wrong. It's always someone else's fault.
Bottom line is the gay movement needs to re-order it's priorities. We have to understand the new reality we face. The religious right is NOT done. They have only just begun.
They will need time to absorb the enormity of their victory. They just received the controls of more federal power. Than they ever have had. They have received almost total control of federal money, and federal law enforcement. Not only that, they have received a strong endorsement from a majority of this nation to do what they will re: gay rights. They received that endorsement from all groups. This wasn't a white rural thing, it was blacks and Hispanics too.
Maybe now the idea that minorities are naturally more sympathetic to the gay cause can die. It's clear they have no more sympathy. Than any other group of people. When it comes to despising gays. Black and latins do it as well as white Christians do.
What happened in this election was a first step. What is so frightening about it is it showed them just how powerful they are. What is so sad, is we cannot see how weak we are.
With this election, gays cannot consider themselves safe ANYWHERE.
The Attorney General is going to unleash his morals brigade unfettered. The only thing that might slow them down is the question of where to start. Should they hit at the heart of gaydom and institute criminal corruption investigations in all major urban areas. Just to cow what they see as the enemy. Urban areas they deem too friendly to a decadent corrupt lifestyle.
Perhaps now is a good time to reign in the rampant corruption in AIDS charities nationwide.
Of course the religious right could just decide to go Mideast on our asses, and cut off our heads. They now control the power of the federal purse. Hey why not completely eliminate ADAP? After all the AIDS in their view is sin. How long will it be before they ask themselves. Why are we paying the wages of their sin. They chose to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Or maybe they'll get even tougher and decide to declare an AIDS emergency in any big gay ghetto, and institute martial law. This way they won't have to deal with any legal challenges from those gays and their annoying lawsuits. In much of this country many a hunter has dreamed of having a hunting season for fags. With martial law instituted to protect this nation from moral depravity many a redneck's dream would come true.
With their hatred now clear, and more intolerant than ever. From the urban ghettos where the gay leadership dwells. We continue to hear the same nonsense. How we must push forward with "our" agenda.
What agenda? The religious right took our agenda and ripped it to shreds. One thing gay people have to realize everywhere is we are not a people or power apart. Our freedom has always depended on "them."
In the past their ignorance of us allowed us to gain many of the freedoms we have. However thanks to our loudmouth ways, they are ignorant of us no more.
I guess safe in the urban ghettos, gays thought no one could hear or see them, and if they could they could NOT touch us.
Well they've proved they could touch us.
It's time to realize just how far out of the mainstream the "gay agenda" was. It isn't even on the map for most of America. Compromise is only possible. When there is common ground. Can we really find common ground with people filled with so much raw hatred and bigotry? Are WE REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK. We can take them on and win?
We have to accept. These are the people. Who control how much of the gay agenda will be allowed. Our allies in the Democratic party can't be expected to sacrifice much more. Than they just did.
Because of us, the Democratic party took a beating. The whole party is teetering on becoming irrelevant to the federal process. Yet we pretend like we are power players, and insist our voice will be heard. Why? We'll be lucky if we even have a seat at the table at the next major democratic party get together. They were clear, Feinstein, Barney Franks, Clinton. It was the gay agenda. That was at fault.
We have to stop pretending we are 10% of the population, and accept that based on the last few elections. We can martial a vote of no more than 1-2%, and only in areas. Where our vote makes no difference nationally. The only ones fooled by our numbers inflation was us.
We have to lower our profile in all ways. We need to refocus just what the hell we're fighting for. It's not marriage anymore, it's long term survival and bare minimum acceptance.
Jettison the divisions of our name. Has anyone seen transgenders provide strength in numbers and money equivalent to the visibility and support the gay rights movement sacrifices for them. Last I heard a transgender was someone. Who wanted to switch sexes and still fit into the str8 world. A women becomes a man to sleep with a woman. This isn't a lesbian thing. So why does the gay rights movement embrace it? And where the hell were the bisexuals? I'll tell you where. They were in the voting booth pulling the Republican leaver. They'd rather die than be associated with a gay person man or woman. If we want to regain the acceptance we lost.
We need to be crystal clear what gay is. Men and women engaging in consensual relationships with members of their own sex. That's it. The easier it is for us to be defined. The easier it is to accept us.
Drop the in your face confrontation style. Stop contemptuously attacking the religious right. Gays have to stop spitting on their bible. It should no longer be funny for gays make religious jokes. You fuel their fear and hatred by letting them know. You think their faith is foolish, their beliefs childish. They deserve respect. If only for the power respecting them gives us.
Maybe it's time we pick one up and read a bible from cover to cover. IF we did. We'd find the ammunition we need to fight them. The scripture is what they believe. Scripture is the greatest weapon to fight them.
In the bible are far more words about acceptance and love thy neighbor, and casting no stones in judgment. Out of the hundreds of thousands of words in the bible. Only a hundred or so deal with homosexuality, and not all of it is clear.
The words of Jesus are the salvation for the gay rights struggle. For he preaches equality, fairness, justice for all and above all love.
However we have been far too busy partying like there is no tomorrow in the gay ghettos. Our friend "Tina" keeps the social calender too full to bother with such boring stuff.
I just hope we wake up soon. Just what do you think happened anyway. Did you think. That when you left the small towns behind. That it became as inconsequential to reality as it was to you in your small gay neighborhoods. Well this election was a notice to us all.
There will be no acceptance of the gay agenda as it is. Push it anymore, and even less will be accepted.
This is not about what WE feel is right and wrong, but power raw power to make. What you believe the standards for right and wrong. We do NOT can NOT set the standards. We cannot chose the battles.
We need to martial our strength and fight the fundamental battle again. Which is gays are people too, no different than anyone else. If we can get that fundamental accepted as it was before. From there we can get equal rights, BUT NOT BEFORE.
What the religious right thinks now matters very much to gay rights. They are set to lay down the law, and I don't see much standing in their way.
Such absolute BULLSH*T could only come from Karl Rove, alright come out from behind the curtain Karl.
Queers need to be smart, patient,and armed to the teeth. Assault weapons are for sale and we know how to shop.
THEY (cheney) WITH US, WE (cheney) BACK!
QUOTE(johnnyincentx @ Nov 6 2004, 02:57 PM)
We have to stop pretending we are 10% of the population, and accept that based on the last few elections. We can martial a vote of no more than 1-2%, and only in areas. Where our vote makes no difference nationally. The only ones fooled by our numbers inflation was us.
We have to lower our profile in all ways. We need to refocus just what the hell we're fighting for. It's not marriage anymore, it's long term survival and bare minimum acceptance.
We have to lower our profile in all ways. We need to refocus just what the hell we're fighting for. It's not marriage anymore, it's long term survival and bare minimum acceptance.
Who gave you those bogus numbers? In the 2000 presidential election, voters who were willing to identify themselves as gay cast 4 million ballots out of a total of 105 million, just under 4 percent of the total. That doesn't include the many queens like yourself who are not out. When Bill Clinton was a candidate, his advisers considered the percentage of the total vote that is cast by gay voters to be 5 percent, and I'd say that's about right. The 10 percent number has been pretty much discredited for a long time now, but 1-2 percent is just as flawed.
As for lowering our profile and just seeking bare minimum acceptance -- you've got to be kidding. The only closet I'm going back into is the one they bury me in
"This was not just a one battle lost, but a near Armageddon. In one election, gay rights has been constrained and limited more than it ever has been in history. Now laws are written into the books and amendments passed. That clearly and specifically eliminate gay civil rights without quarter. The blame for this lies squarely on their shoulders. To push gay marriage now was the wrong issue, at the worst possible time during an absolutely critical election."
Thank you Senator Feinstein - oops - sorry that was someone else playing the Blame Game.
Perhaps we should be like the African American Community and wait for the white man to bestow equality on us? I mean straight man.
Nothing plays into the hands of Republicans and fundamentalists better than the BGILT community attacking its own.
I've been a "gay" activist since just after Stonewall. Or do you disaprove of all those drag queens saying they'd finally had enough and fighting back?
It's time the Democratic Party clearly stated that it either is or is not supportive of EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL. Either it is or is not supportive of HEALTH CARE FOR ALL. Either it does or does not intend to be different from the Republican Party. I'm tired of democratic candidates pandering to the lowest common denominator.
If you're into self hate and closets, go for it Girlfriend, but I came out and I won't go back.
26 years ago I was gay bashed in Texas and suffered broken bones and partial deafness as a result, I swore I would never, ever be silent again. I fought back then and I'm fighting back now!
Silence = Death
And now you want us to be silent again? I DON'T THINK SO!
Stephen in San Francisco -
and don't give me that crap about me living in some protected place that's not the "real" world. The real world is wherever you are and whatever you make of it.
I don't often bring out this cliche but I will - just for you.
I am GAY and PROUD. Try it, you might like it.
Thank you Senator Feinstein - oops - sorry that was someone else playing the Blame Game.
Perhaps we should be like the African American Community and wait for the white man to bestow equality on us? I mean straight man.
Nothing plays into the hands of Republicans and fundamentalists better than the BGILT community attacking its own.
I've been a "gay" activist since just after Stonewall. Or do you disaprove of all those drag queens saying they'd finally had enough and fighting back?
It's time the Democratic Party clearly stated that it either is or is not supportive of EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL. Either it is or is not supportive of HEALTH CARE FOR ALL. Either it does or does not intend to be different from the Republican Party. I'm tired of democratic candidates pandering to the lowest common denominator.
If you're into self hate and closets, go for it Girlfriend, but I came out and I won't go back.
26 years ago I was gay bashed in Texas and suffered broken bones and partial deafness as a result, I swore I would never, ever be silent again. I fought back then and I'm fighting back now!
Silence = Death
And now you want us to be silent again? I DON'T THINK SO!
Stephen in San Francisco -
and don't give me that crap about me living in some protected place that's not the "real" world. The real world is wherever you are and whatever you make of it.
I don't often bring out this cliche but I will - just for you.
I am GAY and PROUD. Try it, you might like it.
why are we so worried?
If you outlaw it again DC has no where for all those "Straight"
boys to go. The problems is teh DNC platform can not have anything
in it next time for anyone. It has to be clear and concise, not dividing
like W but . just there
win control of house senate pres and bend all those bitches over..........
If you outlaw it again DC has no where for all those "Straight"
boys to go. The problems is teh DNC platform can not have anything
in it next time for anyone. It has to be clear and concise, not dividing
like W but . just there
win control of house senate pres and bend all those bitches over..........
Talk about a victim mentality? Might I suggest, you get a reality check. Your mentality is playing right into the hands of a very vocal Right Wing minority. This country is not going to be taken over by right wing religious zealots...not if WE continue to fight. They want to silence us, they want us to be afraid. Nothing would make them happier than for every GLBT person to feel as you do. It bolsters their case. If we stop now, it must mean they are right....right? Wrong. I don't know many Gay folk who are going to be pushed back into the closet because 11 states we don't want to live in anyway won't recognize our rights. Maybe we need to take a lesson from the civil rights movement in this country. We cannot let fear divide us. We can concede this battle but must continue to fight the war.
...and as for respecting the religious right... WTF?? When someone wants you DEAD in the name of THEIR GOD, respect is NOT what you give them. Stand up for yourself! Have some SELF RESPECT. Respect is mutually earned, not borne out of fear. That's their game, not ours.
...and as for respecting the religious right... WTF?? When someone wants you DEAD in the name of THEIR GOD, respect is NOT what you give them. Stand up for yourself! Have some SELF RESPECT. Respect is mutually earned, not borne out of fear. That's their game, not ours.
Now is NEVER the right time to forgo equality under the law. We must NEVER again give in to fear, return to our closets, and accept second class citizenship.
Women would never have won the right to vote if they had sat politely on the sidelines. Blacks would never have gained their civil rights if they had remained quietly in the shadows of white society.
Like it or not, the march to equality will go forward. Get used to it.
Women would never have won the right to vote if they had sat politely on the sidelines. Blacks would never have gained their civil rights if they had remained quietly in the shadows of white society.
Like it or not, the march to equality will go forward. Get used to it.
Well, I'm not gay, and don't exactly see why I'm in this part of the forum but, anyway to my point.
Bush, now that he has the Congress, and a conservative Supreme Court he is likely going to push for the nation-wide Gay Marriage Amendment soon. And since the Democratic party truly does not have enough states, it will likely pass and become part of our Constitution.
I offer an alternative however. There are many who have lost hope because of this election, but I offer new hope. If a Gay Marriage Amendment gets past the Congress then perhaps it is time that America sees a new revolution. Bush and the evangelicals are a threat to everyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Asian, Male, Female.
If in fact Bush and the evangelicals make their move to force their political ideology onto us and you hear of an uprising. Then I suggest that you join it.
Bush, now that he has the Congress, and a conservative Supreme Court he is likely going to push for the nation-wide Gay Marriage Amendment soon. And since the Democratic party truly does not have enough states, it will likely pass and become part of our Constitution.
I offer an alternative however. There are many who have lost hope because of this election, but I offer new hope. If a Gay Marriage Amendment gets past the Congress then perhaps it is time that America sees a new revolution. Bush and the evangelicals are a threat to everyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Asian, Male, Female.
If in fact Bush and the evangelicals make their move to force their political ideology onto us and you hear of an uprising. Then I suggest that you join it.
QUOTE
Such absolute BULLSH*T could only come from Karl Rove, alright come out from behind the curtain Karl.
Queers need to be smart, patient,and armed to the teeth. Assault weapons are for sale and we know how to shop.
THEY (cheney) WITH US, WE (cheney) BACK!
Queers need to be smart, patient,and armed to the teeth. Assault weapons are for sale and we know how to shop.
THEY (cheney) WITH US, WE (cheney) BACK!
These folks are going to be hard to convince with that attitude.
And the vast majority is not the Religious Right!
ok, I'm not gay either but still reading the issues for all of us.
The post about women not sitting silently waiting to get the vote reminded me of the movie "Iron Jawed Maidens" about a group of women seeking the vote who determined to station themselves in front of the white house every day with their signs.
They ended up getting stuck in prison and force fed. Strange how this country spreads freedom.
Anyway, what about standing with signs in front of the White House every day. Show them you are not going away.
The post about women not sitting silently waiting to get the vote reminded me of the movie "Iron Jawed Maidens" about a group of women seeking the vote who determined to station themselves in front of the white house every day with their signs.
They ended up getting stuck in prison and force fed. Strange how this country spreads freedom.
Anyway, what about standing with signs in front of the White House every day. Show them you are not going away.
Rethink this.
Who made gay marriage a presidential election issue? It wasn't the gays.
Who made gay marriage a presidential election issue? It wasn't the gays.
QUOTE(Aine @ Nov 6 2004, 09:49 PM)
Rethink this.
Who made gay marriage a presidential election issue? It wasn't the gays.
Who made gay marriage a presidential election issue? It wasn't the gays.
No!...It was the activist, overbearing courts in California and Massachusetts.
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Nov 6 2004, 09:55 PM)
No!...It was the activist, overbearing courts in California and Massachusetts.
It should be noted that these were state courts. The issue was a state issue, and it should've remained a state issue. The Republicans made it nationwide with their federal amendment to the constitution attempt. The states have been able define marriage in their own states for 200+ years. If there is a problem with the way a state court is handling things then it should be up to that state legislature to check them, not the federal legislature.
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Nov 6 2004, 09:16 PM)
These folks are going to be hard to convince with that attitude.
And the vast majority is not the Religious Right!
And the vast majority is not the Religious Right!
This map is deceiving. All the blue areas have more people living in them than the red areas do. Many of those giant areas of red are mostly...cows and corn. In fact I suspect the cow population is higher than the human population in many of these red areas.
QUOTE(GrrrlRomeo @ Nov 6 2004, 08:34 PM)
This map is deceiving. All the blue areas have more people living in them than the red areas do. Many of those giant areas of red are mostly...cows and corn. In fact I suspect the cow population is higher than the human population in many of these red areas.
Yeah, and I bet the cows voted too!
As for the religious right and the neocons: FOAD! Wonder if the Evangelicals know how tight Bushie is with Rev. Moon? Somebody should show them Project for a New American Century's website. It has nothing to do with/about religion. Religion is one of their tools towards the real goal. World Domination.
How long before the draft starts?
Hey we are not asking for anything other people don't have
Also, we pay the highest taxes always being classed as single!
We get no tax benefits yet we have to pay for other peoples children
schooling. What deductions do we get. Almost none!
We should take over a state and cede the union Just call it gay state!
Where all are welcome, all are equal, all have rights OH I forgot
thats what the Consitution already Says
Also, we pay the highest taxes always being classed as single!
We get no tax benefits yet we have to pay for other peoples children
schooling. What deductions do we get. Almost none!
We should take over a state and cede the union Just call it gay state!
Where all are welcome, all are equal, all have rights OH I forgot
thats what the Consitution already Says
QUOTE(emperoranubis @ Nov 6 2004, 10:01 PM)
Well, I'm not gay, and don't exactly see why I'm in this part of the forum but, anyway to my point.
Bush, now that he has the Congress, and a conservative Supreme Court he is likely going to push for the nation-wide Gay Marriage Amendment soon. And since the Democratic party truly does not have enough states, it will likely pass and become part of our Constitution.
I offer an alternative however. There are many who have lost hope because of this election, but I offer new hope. If a Gay Marriage Amendment gets past the Congress then perhaps it is time that America sees a new revolution. Bush and the evangelicals are a threat to everyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Asian, Male, Female.
If in fact Bush and the evangelicals make their move to force their political ideology onto us and you hear of an uprising. Then I suggest that you join it.
Bush, now that he has the Congress, and a conservative Supreme Court he is likely going to push for the nation-wide Gay Marriage Amendment soon. And since the Democratic party truly does not have enough states, it will likely pass and become part of our Constitution.
I offer an alternative however. There are many who have lost hope because of this election, but I offer new hope. If a Gay Marriage Amendment gets past the Congress then perhaps it is time that America sees a new revolution. Bush and the evangelicals are a threat to everyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Gay, Straight, Black, White, Asian, Male, Female.
If in fact Bush and the evangelicals make their move to force their political ideology onto us and you hear of an uprising. Then I suggest that you join it.
Good idea, I think we need to expose all of the radical rights extreme agenda. Moderate Christians who voted for Bush are not aware that their religion has been hijacked, they are not aware of the hatespeak and bile coming from the mouths of these guys. Let's expose them, the closer to Bush the better. THe more outrageous the statement the better. How about we start a collection site on this blog and when we get several very strong (and verified) statements we start with a letter to the editors campaign. We send them to friends. Education and exposure is how we will win
QUOTE(Aine @ Nov 6 2004, 10:49 PM)
Rethink this.
Who made gay marriage a presidential election issue? It wasn't the gays.
Who made gay marriage a presidential election issue? It wasn't the gays.
Are you kidding? Don't you remember Rosie going to California to get married? We made a huge deal of gay marriage and other states looked on in horror to what happened in Ca.l and said "not here".
It's interesting to read the responses of the radicals. We're not going to take it anymore. Yeah they scream "you stomped on our head, broke our ribs and blinded us in one eye, but we going to prove we're difficult to kill."
The far right relishes such talk. We can get guns. They have more guns. Than we'll ever have. And unlike gays. They would relish the violence. Have we all so completely forgotten. What they are like?
There is a time and a place for everything, but just as it isn't smart for a black man to sneak into a KKK rally and then reveal himself to preach civil rights. It isn't smart to gay people to constantly make themselves such an EASY target.
There is nothing to be gained fighting for gay rights in places. Where the opposition is so strong. We must refocus on our areas of strength, and ensure they are safe from further encroachment.
I like to think in terms of winning the battle someday, not losing everything due to the inability to assess risk properly.
Whatever plans the gay leadership makes. This point is clear. They lost, big time. Gay rights were rolled back. Anti-gay laws were enshrined in law and constitutions. The damage done to gay rights will take decades to undo.
IT IS A FACT. That the religious right has it's hands on the levers of power like they have never had before. Only fractured resistance can be expected to anything they do. NO they are not the majority, but they ARE the guiding force for the majority. Who can sit back and know. Whatever happens to gays. It doesn't hurt them.
I prefer a strategy based on reality. Win what we can win, fight the battles we can win.
It's clear from some of the responses. That many prefer to only read. What they agree with and talk with those. Who share their beliefs about right and wrong. So they can construct a world view. That endorses their own beliefs.
Few addressed the points I made. Like just what the hell is continuing to fight for gay marriage going to do to prevent the budget cuts. That will target gay issues specifically. What will the gay community do. When the Justice Dept. starts to use its investigative powers to dismantle from the inside. The powers that protect us.
The social conservatives are organized and they have an agenda. That they want to see enforced. They do NOT have any compunction about using those powers.
Admitting a major loss does not equate to surrendering to concentration camps closets. It just means we can accept how badly pushing a gay rights agenda way out of the mainstream has hurt us. Ditch it. We need to become clear and concise in our goals.
We need to redefine what gay is. It's not people who are basically straight wanting to be another sex. It's not bisexuals. Who shun more than any other group from association with gays, because association would mean dealing with their own issues.
I lived in SF for 14 years, and LA for 3. As well as a stint in the Pensacola area of Florida. I only recently came back to Texas. So my viewpoints aren't spawned from someone. Who doesn't understand. What gay freedom means. I'm not stuck in a closet and self hating. LOL
I liked it so much. I would like to be able to continue enjoying it.
Rather they are the viewpoint of someone. Who saw the excessive, in your face politics of the far left gay rights movement as a sure loser. You never will sway someone to your side by demeaning and insulting their values. The gay rights movement has been doing that, with increasing shrillness for 30 years.
It's time that sensible gay men and women everywhere reassess. What are our priorities. Who we are, and what issues we can fight for and win. Winning means strength, losing like we did showed enormous weakness.
I'm not surprised no one jumped at the chance to read the bible. Hmmmm. For there in lies the salvation for gay rights. It has all the words. That justify giving rights to gays. We are so completely ignorant of it. We cannot embrace or use it as the weapon it is. It is what the religious conservatives believe. Knowing what they believe is power. With our contempt we cede to the enemy our most powerful weapon.
One of the most powerful lines came straight from Jesus. He said that he trumped all other law written before him. That basically invalidates all Old Testament law that specifically and credibly spoke about the sinfulness of homosexuality. Yet we never bother to question our opponents about that. We let them preach their hate, and futily pit our own self-serving logic against their faith. We have to use our brains. Their strength is their biggest weakness.
That is how MLK succeeded. He ripped the heart out of segregation by pointing out. That based on the bible. It was wrong. Once confronted over and over again by a clear reading of their own holy book. The religious conservatives opposition weakened. Sure there is still racism, but I doubt if any black person. Wants to go live in 1953.
To win this new battle. We have to get out of ourselves, and confront the world AS IT IS. Not as we would like to see it. We have to shed the pretension of our causes.We have to stop assuming people really know we're on the right side. Deep in the ghettos. I am stricken by the complete ignorance of reality expressed by those. Who live there.
It's a good thing to dream. It's a foolish thing to be so lost in your fantasy ideals. That we lose touch with the reality, and think. What is plausible and possible in the ghettos is possible everywhere.
The far right relishes such talk. We can get guns. They have more guns. Than we'll ever have. And unlike gays. They would relish the violence. Have we all so completely forgotten. What they are like?
There is a time and a place for everything, but just as it isn't smart for a black man to sneak into a KKK rally and then reveal himself to preach civil rights. It isn't smart to gay people to constantly make themselves such an EASY target.
There is nothing to be gained fighting for gay rights in places. Where the opposition is so strong. We must refocus on our areas of strength, and ensure they are safe from further encroachment.
I like to think in terms of winning the battle someday, not losing everything due to the inability to assess risk properly.
Whatever plans the gay leadership makes. This point is clear. They lost, big time. Gay rights were rolled back. Anti-gay laws were enshrined in law and constitutions. The damage done to gay rights will take decades to undo.
IT IS A FACT. That the religious right has it's hands on the levers of power like they have never had before. Only fractured resistance can be expected to anything they do. NO they are not the majority, but they ARE the guiding force for the majority. Who can sit back and know. Whatever happens to gays. It doesn't hurt them.
I prefer a strategy based on reality. Win what we can win, fight the battles we can win.
It's clear from some of the responses. That many prefer to only read. What they agree with and talk with those. Who share their beliefs about right and wrong. So they can construct a world view. That endorses their own beliefs.
Few addressed the points I made. Like just what the hell is continuing to fight for gay marriage going to do to prevent the budget cuts. That will target gay issues specifically. What will the gay community do. When the Justice Dept. starts to use its investigative powers to dismantle from the inside. The powers that protect us.
The social conservatives are organized and they have an agenda. That they want to see enforced. They do NOT have any compunction about using those powers.
Admitting a major loss does not equate to surrendering to concentration camps closets. It just means we can accept how badly pushing a gay rights agenda way out of the mainstream has hurt us. Ditch it. We need to become clear and concise in our goals.
We need to redefine what gay is. It's not people who are basically straight wanting to be another sex. It's not bisexuals. Who shun more than any other group from association with gays, because association would mean dealing with their own issues.
I lived in SF for 14 years, and LA for 3. As well as a stint in the Pensacola area of Florida. I only recently came back to Texas. So my viewpoints aren't spawned from someone. Who doesn't understand. What gay freedom means. I'm not stuck in a closet and self hating. LOL
I liked it so much. I would like to be able to continue enjoying it.
Rather they are the viewpoint of someone. Who saw the excessive, in your face politics of the far left gay rights movement as a sure loser. You never will sway someone to your side by demeaning and insulting their values. The gay rights movement has been doing that, with increasing shrillness for 30 years.
It's time that sensible gay men and women everywhere reassess. What are our priorities. Who we are, and what issues we can fight for and win. Winning means strength, losing like we did showed enormous weakness.
I'm not surprised no one jumped at the chance to read the bible. Hmmmm. For there in lies the salvation for gay rights. It has all the words. That justify giving rights to gays. We are so completely ignorant of it. We cannot embrace or use it as the weapon it is. It is what the religious conservatives believe. Knowing what they believe is power. With our contempt we cede to the enemy our most powerful weapon.
One of the most powerful lines came straight from Jesus. He said that he trumped all other law written before him. That basically invalidates all Old Testament law that specifically and credibly spoke about the sinfulness of homosexuality. Yet we never bother to question our opponents about that. We let them preach their hate, and futily pit our own self-serving logic against their faith. We have to use our brains. Their strength is their biggest weakness.
That is how MLK succeeded. He ripped the heart out of segregation by pointing out. That based on the bible. It was wrong. Once confronted over and over again by a clear reading of their own holy book. The religious conservatives opposition weakened. Sure there is still racism, but I doubt if any black person. Wants to go live in 1953.
To win this new battle. We have to get out of ourselves, and confront the world AS IT IS. Not as we would like to see it. We have to shed the pretension of our causes.We have to stop assuming people really know we're on the right side. Deep in the ghettos. I am stricken by the complete ignorance of reality expressed by those. Who live there.
It's a good thing to dream. It's a foolish thing to be so lost in your fantasy ideals. That we lose touch with the reality, and think. What is plausible and possible in the ghettos is possible everywhere.
I am not gay, but have gay friends. Has anyone bothered to read the Repuglican Platform? If not read it before you comment on the subject. They are against any benefits for gay couples, such as hospital visits, etc. The word "gay marrage" cannot be used, it's a hot button. Civil unions would be more appropriate.
And what with this "defense of marrage" proposition??? Gay people are NOT a treat to traditional marrage. The REAL threat to marrage is poverty, deadbeat dads, domestic violence, etc. How can you support your kids on meager wages?
And what with this "defense of marrage" proposition??? Gay people are NOT a treat to traditional marrage. The REAL threat to marrage is poverty, deadbeat dads, domestic violence, etc. How can you support your kids on meager wages?
Try to convince the preachers that the old testament was done away with
the 2 and only commandments JC gave:
Jesus said unto him,
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
If these were kept all people would be equal and loved.
the 2 and only commandments JC gave:
Jesus said unto him,
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
If these were kept all people would be equal and loved.
QUOTE(OutsourceNeocons @ Nov 7 2004, 04:49 AM)
I am not gay, but have gay friends. Has anyone bothered to read the Repuglican Platform? If not read it before you comment on the subject. They are against any benefits for gay couples, such as hospital visits, etc. The word "gay marrage" cannot be used, it's a hot button. Civil unions would be more appropriate.
And what with this "defense of marrage" proposition??? Gay people are NOT a treat to traditional marrage. The REAL threat to marrage is poverty, deadbeat dads, domestic violence, etc. How can you support your kids on meager wages?
And what with this "defense of marrage" proposition??? Gay people are NOT a treat to traditional marrage. The REAL threat to marrage is poverty, deadbeat dads, domestic violence, etc. How can you support your kids on meager wages?
Not all republicans agree with the platform. I think gays should be allowed to have Civil unions with full partnership benefits. I do not support calling it marriage, but I respect the position of those that do . I also think that when no other suitable home can be found for a child that a gay couple should be allowed to adopt. Gay parents raising a child is preferrable to having the child be in state custody and mistreated.
Despite the comments, whether foolish, ignorant, or thoughful, gay rights have NOT been pushed back by this election. We have simply failed to procure, for the time being, rights to which we are entitled as full-fledged American citizens.
Gays have made great progress in the past twenty years, legally and socially. That progress will continue, despite the kicking and screaming of the reich-wingers, even despite the occasional roadblocks they place before us. We will overcome each and every one of them.
Our progress is worldwide, not just national, and comes as a result of ALL elements of civilized society, gay and straight, radical and moderate (even the rare conservative) who stand up for equality, freedom, and justice for all. Regardless of the shrill chants and hateful attempts of the intellectually challenged to push us back into our closets, we will not be silenced.
Our coalition will move forward in this country thanks to the courage of ALL thinking men and women working in unity, regardless of political persuasion, from mild to wild. Even Gay Republicans have their usefulness, of sorts, if only to point out that we are indeed, EVERYWHERE.
Gays have made great progress in the past twenty years, legally and socially. That progress will continue, despite the kicking and screaming of the reich-wingers, even despite the occasional roadblocks they place before us. We will overcome each and every one of them.
Our progress is worldwide, not just national, and comes as a result of ALL elements of civilized society, gay and straight, radical and moderate (even the rare conservative) who stand up for equality, freedom, and justice for all. Regardless of the shrill chants and hateful attempts of the intellectually challenged to push us back into our closets, we will not be silenced.
Our coalition will move forward in this country thanks to the courage of ALL thinking men and women working in unity, regardless of political persuasion, from mild to wild. Even Gay Republicans have their usefulness, of sorts, if only to point out that we are indeed, EVERYWHERE.
QUOTE(congresswatcher @ Nov 7 2004, 12:55 PM)
Not all republicans agree with the platform. I think gays should be allowed to have Civil unions with full partnership benefits. I do not support calling it marriage, but I respect the position of those that do . I also think that when no other suitable home can be found for a child that a gay couple should be allowed to adopt. Gay parents raising a child is preferrable to having the child be in state custody and mistreated.
I totally agree with you. Since the word "marriage" is such a hot button, I hope all the Dems, Greens, Independends and whatever few thinking Republicans would stop referring to "gay marriage". Call it what it is like "domestic partnership" or "civil unions"
Rove is the master of "fake" hot button language.
QUOTE(congresswatcher @ Nov 7 2004, 10:55 AM)
Not all republicans agree with the platform. I think gays should be allowed to have Civil unions with full partnership benefits. I do not support calling it marriage, but I respect the position of those that do . I also think that when no other suitable home can be found for a child that a gay couple should be allowed to adopt. Gay parents raising a child is preferrable to having the child be in state custody and mistreated.
Gay and lesbian couples should be allowed to adopt ONLY when no other suitable home can be found??? And just how would you define "suitable"?
At some point people will have to realize that hatred of gays (which is what the votes to ban gay marriage represent) is wrong. That's my two cents.
OK, folks, this is one of the reasons I was hesitant about joining the new forum. We simply should not be bickering among ourselves about what is essentially a non-issue.
Some points that I hope that (mostly) we can agree on:
1. Gay and lesbian American are an important part of the Democratic coalition that is not going to go away or be thrown out. We make up approximately 4-5 percent of the total vote and vote overwhelmingly Democratic, a higher percentage (75) than any group except African-Americans. We probably make up something like 7-8 percent of total Democratic votes, and we donate money in amounts that likely far exceed that.
2. The Democratic Party has a longstanding principle of supporting EQUALITY and FAIRNESS for all. I think that's why most of us are Democrats. Shouldn't those principles also apply to gay people?
3. We may disagree on same-sex marriage, or the wisdom of "pushing" it at this time. But there is never an ideal time for civil rights progress. And besides, most of the cases are being pursued by individual couples, not radical, far-left gay leaders or gay organizations. Anyone has the right to sue in America. Even if you got gay organizations to back off, the issue would continue to move ahead. It is inevitable, and though it might could be slowed somewhat, it cannot be stopped.
4. GAY PEOPLE DID NOT COST JOHN KERRY THE ELECTION. At most, the anti-gay amendments that have been much discussed *may* have played a role in one single state, Ohio. However, Kerry lost Ohio by 136,000 votes. It cannot be conclusively said that that *single* issue cost him that many votes. And even if it did, another issue, 9-11/terrorism, most assuredly cost him more votes in Ohio than that. You can't just tag it on one thing. I know people are upset about Kerry's loss, but it's not productive to engage in finger-pointing. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, starting with the Democratic get out the vote effort.
Some points that I hope that (mostly) we can agree on:
1. Gay and lesbian American are an important part of the Democratic coalition that is not going to go away or be thrown out. We make up approximately 4-5 percent of the total vote and vote overwhelmingly Democratic, a higher percentage (75) than any group except African-Americans. We probably make up something like 7-8 percent of total Democratic votes, and we donate money in amounts that likely far exceed that.
2. The Democratic Party has a longstanding principle of supporting EQUALITY and FAIRNESS for all. I think that's why most of us are Democrats. Shouldn't those principles also apply to gay people?
3. We may disagree on same-sex marriage, or the wisdom of "pushing" it at this time. But there is never an ideal time for civil rights progress. And besides, most of the cases are being pursued by individual couples, not radical, far-left gay leaders or gay organizations. Anyone has the right to sue in America. Even if you got gay organizations to back off, the issue would continue to move ahead. It is inevitable, and though it might could be slowed somewhat, it cannot be stopped.
4. GAY PEOPLE DID NOT COST JOHN KERRY THE ELECTION. At most, the anti-gay amendments that have been much discussed *may* have played a role in one single state, Ohio. However, Kerry lost Ohio by 136,000 votes. It cannot be conclusively said that that *single* issue cost him that many votes. And even if it did, another issue, 9-11/terrorism, most assuredly cost him more votes in Ohio than that. You can't just tag it on one thing. I know people are upset about Kerry's loss, but it's not productive to engage in finger-pointing. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, starting with the Democratic get out the vote effort.
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Nov 7 2004, 12:55 AM)
No!...It was the activist, overbearing courts in California and Massachusetts.
Huh? Frenchy, have you EVEN read the MA court decision? Here's a link, in case you care.
http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/conlaw/goo...ge111803opn.pdf
AFTER you have read the WHOLE opinion, I do hope you will come back and explain to us exactly what is "overbearing" about applying the Massachusetts Constitution to find that refusing the right to marry denies gays and lesbians of equal protection under MA law.
In addition, the only CA court opinion issued said the SF mayor did not have the right to issue marriage licenses to people like me and my beloved. The CA Supreme Court voided my marriage without even making my beloved and me parties to the case. Does that qualify as overbearing in your book?
Probably not.
By 2006 M.A. will have two more years of gay/lesbian marriages, and I'm
pretty sure locust and famine aren't going to strike that state. When Americans
see what an absolute non-threat gay marriage poses to straight marriages, I
think the evidence will speak volumes.
By 2006 maybe Americans will be tired of seeing troops die, tired of more
manufacturing jobs with benefits being replaced with McJobs with no benefits.
Tired of mercury in their fish causing birth defects, tired of people with AIDS
dying in the streets, tired of....
JUST (cheneying) TIRED!
pretty sure locust and famine aren't going to strike that state. When Americans
see what an absolute non-threat gay marriage poses to straight marriages, I
think the evidence will speak volumes.
By 2006 maybe Americans will be tired of seeing troops die, tired of more
manufacturing jobs with benefits being replaced with McJobs with no benefits.
Tired of mercury in their fish causing birth defects, tired of people with AIDS
dying in the streets, tired of....
JUST (cheneying) TIRED!
1. Gay and lesbian American are an important part of the Democratic coalition that is not going to go away or be thrown out. We make up approximately 4-5 percent of the total vote and vote overwhelmingly Democratic, a higher percentage (75) than any group except African-Americans. We probably make up something like 7-8 percent of total Democratic votes, and we donate money in amounts that likely far exceed that.
We certainly don't demonstrate that. And my point was. Our votes are concentrated in places. Where they matter least to the Democratic Party nationwide. If no gay person voted in SF or West Hollywood. It would still be safely Democratic. It doesn't matter if we made up 20%. We just do NOT have the effects on elections like we would. If our numbers were right. Finally for such a large minority. Our presence is pretty scarce. If you step out of the ghettos. Just where are they hiding? How do they hide so successfully. We've fallen victim to our own propaganda. It's time to get real about "gay power".
2. The Democratic Party has a longstanding principle of supporting EQUALITY and FAIRNESS for all. I think that's why most of us are Democrats. Shouldn't those principles also apply to gay people?
That's NOT the question. The question is how do we go about it. Do we try to adopt a sensible agenda. That can be pushed forward, or do we continue with the politics of confrontation and denunciation as we have been doing for 30 years..
3. We may disagree on same-sex marriage, or the wisdom of "pushing" it at this time. But there is never an ideal time for civil rights progress. And besides, most of the cases are being pursued by individual couples, not radical, far-left gay leaders or gay organizations. Anyone has the right to sue in America. Even if you got gay organizations to back off, the issue would continue to move ahead. It is inevitable, and though it might could be slowed somewhat, it cannot be stopped.
Some times are better than others. This is certainly not a good time. Now is the time for planning and regrouping, not wasting valuable resources and time fighting battles . We will not win, and if we lose them now. We lose them for all our lifetimes.
4. GAY PEOPLE DID NOT COST JOHN KERRY THE ELECTION. At most, the anti-gay amendments that have been much discussed *may* have played a role in one single state, Ohio. However, Kerry lost Ohio by 136,000 votes. It cannot be conclusively said that that *single* issue cost him that many votes. And even if it did, another issue, 9-11/terrorism, most assuredly cost him more votes in Ohio than that. You can't just tag it on one thing. I know people are upset about Kerry's loss, but it's not productive to engage in finger-pointing. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, starting with the Democratic get out the vote effort.
YES WE DID. And it's this pigheaded stubborn streak of our own self-rightousness makes us a bad coalition partner to boot. How many Democratic leaders have to say the same thing for you to hear it? If you pop your head out of your ghetto. You'll find dozens and dozens of stories clearly showing the link between the fight for gay marriage and how we chose to go about it, and the victory of the social conservatives. I'm collecting them now.
You must not read the NYTimes, LATimes, MSNBC, CBS, CNN, FOX SF Chron Etc. They are the ones printing most of the pieces directly opposing your position. They say we did cost the Democrats big time. Perhaps you should try to read something other than the feel good rags. That make up the queer press. Maybe venture out of the gay ghetto, and get a feel for what the rest of America feels. Believe it or not to know what someone feels. It sometimes a good idea to ask them and listen. You're only listening to what you agree with.
Finally discussing amongst ourselves. SHOULD NEVER BE DISCOURAGED. It's the only way we learn from our mistakes. Not questioning, and quietly going for the ride is what got the gay movement into this mess. So many cop out, and the extreme left that controls the movement has a tin ear to hearing anything it doesn't want to hear.
[/quote]
We certainly don't demonstrate that. And my point was. Our votes are concentrated in places. Where they matter least to the Democratic Party nationwide. If no gay person voted in SF or West Hollywood. It would still be safely Democratic. It doesn't matter if we made up 20%. We just do NOT have the effects on elections like we would. If our numbers were right. Finally for such a large minority. Our presence is pretty scarce. If you step out of the ghettos. Just where are they hiding? How do they hide so successfully. We've fallen victim to our own propaganda. It's time to get real about "gay power".
2. The Democratic Party has a longstanding principle of supporting EQUALITY and FAIRNESS for all. I think that's why most of us are Democrats. Shouldn't those principles also apply to gay people?
That's NOT the question. The question is how do we go about it. Do we try to adopt a sensible agenda. That can be pushed forward, or do we continue with the politics of confrontation and denunciation as we have been doing for 30 years..
3. We may disagree on same-sex marriage, or the wisdom of "pushing" it at this time. But there is never an ideal time for civil rights progress. And besides, most of the cases are being pursued by individual couples, not radical, far-left gay leaders or gay organizations. Anyone has the right to sue in America. Even if you got gay organizations to back off, the issue would continue to move ahead. It is inevitable, and though it might could be slowed somewhat, it cannot be stopped.
Some times are better than others. This is certainly not a good time. Now is the time for planning and regrouping, not wasting valuable resources and time fighting battles . We will not win, and if we lose them now. We lose them for all our lifetimes.
4. GAY PEOPLE DID NOT COST JOHN KERRY THE ELECTION. At most, the anti-gay amendments that have been much discussed *may* have played a role in one single state, Ohio. However, Kerry lost Ohio by 136,000 votes. It cannot be conclusively said that that *single* issue cost him that many votes. And even if it did, another issue, 9-11/terrorism, most assuredly cost him more votes in Ohio than that. You can't just tag it on one thing. I know people are upset about Kerry's loss, but it's not productive to engage in finger-pointing. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, starting with the Democratic get out the vote effort.
YES WE DID. And it's this pigheaded stubborn streak of our own self-rightousness makes us a bad coalition partner to boot. How many Democratic leaders have to say the same thing for you to hear it? If you pop your head out of your ghetto. You'll find dozens and dozens of stories clearly showing the link between the fight for gay marriage and how we chose to go about it, and the victory of the social conservatives. I'm collecting them now.
You must not read the NYTimes, LATimes, MSNBC, CBS, CNN, FOX SF Chron Etc. They are the ones printing most of the pieces directly opposing your position. They say we did cost the Democrats big time. Perhaps you should try to read something other than the feel good rags. That make up the queer press. Maybe venture out of the gay ghetto, and get a feel for what the rest of America feels. Believe it or not to know what someone feels. It sometimes a good idea to ask them and listen. You're only listening to what you agree with.
Finally discussing amongst ourselves. SHOULD NEVER BE DISCOURAGED. It's the only way we learn from our mistakes. Not questioning, and quietly going for the ride is what got the gay movement into this mess. So many cop out, and the extreme left that controls the movement has a tin ear to hearing anything it doesn't want to hear.
[/quote]
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 06:28 PM]
GAY PEOPLE DID NOT COST JOHN KERRY THE ELECTION. At most, the anti-gay amendments that have been much discussed *may* have played a role in one single state, Ohio. However, Kerry lost Ohio by 136,000 votes. It cannot be conclusively said that that *single* issue cost him that many votes. And even if it did, another issue, 9-11/terrorism, most assuredly cost him more votes in Ohio than that. You can't just tag it on one thing. I know people are upset about Kerry's loss, but it's not productive to engage in finger-pointing. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, starting with the Democratic get out the vote effort.
[/quote]
[/quote]
The Neocons only hammer away at a few irrevelant wedge issues. They keep using the words "gay marrage", "abortion" and "junk lawsuits" so they get the holy rollers all riled up to go out and vote for the Repugs.
They also misuse the 9-11 / terrorism issue. They don't mention that it happened on their watch! They don't mention that more Democratic politicians are combat veterans. What they neglect to mention is that Cheney got 5 deferrments, because "it was not his priority", and no matter how you cut it Bush got special treatment. He jumped ahead of at least 500 people to get into the Guard because of his family's political connections, then he disappeared for almost a year when he went to work on a political campaign in GA. Texansfortruth has a $50,000 reward for anyone who can prove that Bush was not AWOL.
GAY PEOPLE DID NOT COST JOHN KERRY THE ELECTION. At most, the anti-gay amendments that have been much discussed *may* have played a role in one single state, Ohio. However, Kerry lost Ohio by 136,000 votes. It cannot be conclusively said that that *single* issue cost him that many votes. And even if it did, another issue, 9-11/terrorism, most assuredly cost him more votes in Ohio than that. You can't just tag it on one thing. I know people are upset about Kerry's loss, but it's not productive to engage in finger-pointing. There are a lot of things that could have been done better, starting with the Democratic get out the vote effort.
[/quote]
[/quote]
The Neocons only hammer away at a few irrevelant wedge issues. They keep using the words "gay marrage", "abortion" and "junk lawsuits" so they get the holy rollers all riled up to go out and vote for the Repugs.
They also misuse the 9-11 / terrorism issue. They don't mention that it happened on their watch! They don't mention that more Democratic politicians are combat veterans. What they neglect to mention is that Cheney got 5 deferrments, because "it was not his priority", and no matter how you cut it Bush got special treatment. He jumped ahead of at least 500 people to get into the Guard because of his family's political connections, then he disappeared for almost a year when he went to work on a political campaign in GA. Texansfortruth has a $50,000 reward for anyone who can prove that Bush was not AWOL.
QUOTE(johnnyincentx @ Nov 7 2004, 02:28 PM)
<SNIP>
Johnny Tex says:
Do we try to adopt a sensible agenda. That can be pushed forward, or do we continue with the politics of confrontation and denunciation as we have been doing for 30 years..
Johnny Tex says:
Do we try to adopt a sensible agenda. That can be pushed forward, or do we continue with the politics of confrontation and denunciation as we have been doing for 30 years..
Stechjo: I've been involved in the LGBT movement for 30+ years and have nver resorted to confrontation or denouncing anyone. I don't know who you've been hanging around. Unless letting it be known that I will settle for nothing less than equality meets your definition of confrontation.
I think you've been spending too much time in Texas ;-)
QUOTE
JohnnyTex:
<SNIP>
YES WE DID. [Cost John Kerry the election.] And it's this pigheaded stubborn streak of our own self-rightousness makes us a bad coalition partner to boot. How many Democratic leaders have to say the same thing for you to hear it? If you pop your head out of your ghetto.
<SNIP>
YES WE DID. [Cost John Kerry the election.] And it's this pigheaded stubborn streak of our own self-rightousness makes us a bad coalition partner to boot. How many Democratic leaders have to say the same thing for you to hear it? If you pop your head out of your ghetto.
Stechjo: Whoa, cowboy! Talk about selfrighteous!
QUOTE
JohnnyTex: You'll find dozens and dozens of stories clearly showing the link between the fight for gay marriage and how we chose to go about it, and the victory of the social conservatives. I'm collecting them now. <SNIP> Perhaps you should try to read something other than the feel good rags. That make up the queer press. Maybe venture out of the gay ghetto, and get a feel for what the rest of America feels. Believe it or not to know what someone feels. It sometimes a good idea to ask them and listen. You're only listening to what you agree with.
Stechjo: As my grandmother used to say, when your point a finger at someone else, there are always three pointing back at you. Perhaps its the Buddhist in me, but you seem very, very attached to being right. If you have a better mousetrap, by all means, go out and sell it and find other to join your company.
QUOTE
JohnnyTex: Finally discussing amongst ourselves. SHOULD NEVER BE DISCOURAGED. It's the only way we learn from our mistakes.
Stechjo: True discussion, in my opinion, needs to transcend the "blame game" and I'm not seeing that with your postings.
QUOTE
JohnnyTex: Not questioning, and quietly going for the ride is what got the gay movement into this mess. So many cop out, and the extreme left that controls the movement has a tin ear to hearing anything it doesn't want to hear.
Stechjo: The gay - and I add lesbian, bisexual, intersex and transgender - movement has moved in the direction of those who were willing to sacrifice their time, their money - and sometimes their lives. If you don't like where the bus is going there's nothing stopping you from getting off and finding some folks to ride on your own bus. Or you might try stopping the fingerpointing and start having a real, civil dialogue.
You'd be surprised how many people might be willing to listen to you when you stop being confrontational and denouncing them!
Stechjo
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 04:28 PM]
We certainly don't demonstrate that. And my point was. Our votes are concentrated in places. Where they matter least to the Democratic Party nationwide. If no gay person voted in SF or West Hollywood. It would still be safely Democratic. It doesn't matter if we made up 20%. We just do NOT have the effects on elections like we would. If our numbers were right. Finally for such a large minority. Our presence is pretty scarce. If you step out of the ghettos. Just where are they hiding? How do they hide so successfully. We've fallen victim to our own propaganda. It's time to get real about "gay power".
[/quote]
[/quote]
Certainly we are more concentrated in big cities, but we are everywhere. I don't know that we need to be able to say that we were the single bloc that decided an election in order to be important. If we are, say, 1-2 percent of the vote in Waco, that's still 1-2 percent more votes for Democrats.
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 04:28 PM]
That's NOT the question. The question is how do we go about it. Do we try to adopt a sensible agenda. That can be pushed forward, or do we continue with the politics of confrontation and denunciation as we have been doing for 30 years..
Some times are better than others. This is certainly not a good time. Now is the time for planning and regrouping, not wasting valuable resources and time fighting battles . We will not win, and if we lose them now. We lose them for all our lifetimes.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Most of Canada has accepted same-sex marriage as the fair and equitable thing to do. Things seem to be going well, at least for now, in Massachusetts. Perhaps the gay community has been a bit too "flaming" for mainstream tastes at times, but we have made remarkable progress in the past 30 years. When I was growing up, "gay" didn't even exist, and there were NO role models. I think the gay community has matured greatly as time has passed, and we now have responsible organizations like HRC and Stonewall Democrats rather than just drag queens protesting. As for the same-sex marriage movement, the train is already rolling, and there is no way for gay leadership/organizations to stop it, even if they wanted to. Might as well get on board and have some say in the matter. I'm sorry, folks, but people are just not going to put their civil rights on the shelf for an election, no matter how much some people wish they would. Even if gay organizations agreed to do this, and I think to some extent they did agree to keep quiet for the Kerry campaign, they don't speak for all gays and lesbians.
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 04:28 PM]
YES WE DID. And it's this pigheaded stubborn streak of our own self-rightousness makes us a bad coalition partner to boot. How many Democratic leaders have to say the same thing for you to hear it? If you pop your head out of your ghetto. You'll find dozens and dozens of stories clearly showing the link between the fight for gay marriage and how we chose to go about it, and the victory of the social conservatives. I'm collecting them now.
You must not read the NYTimes, LATimes, MSNBC, CBS, CNN, FOX SF Chron Etc. They are the ones printing most of the pieces directly opposing your position. They say we did cost the Democrats big time. Perhaps you should try to read something other than the feel good rags. That make up the queer press. Maybe venture out of the gay ghetto, and get a feel for what the rest of America feels. Believe it or not to know what someone feels. It sometimes a good idea to ask them and listen. You're only listening to what you agree with.
[/quote]
[/quote]
All of the news media have done stories. Hey, it's a trendy story. And I'm not going to argue that the same-sex marriage issue had no impact. But I'm saying, forcefully, that IT DID NOT COST KERRY THE ELECTION. As I said in my previous post, you just can't pull something out like that and say that was the *one* thing that made the difference. Pick an issue: same-sex marriage, 9-11/terrorism, the "don't change horses" rule for a war, "Massachusetts liberal," flip-flopper, "I just don't like him," the Swift Boat ads, tax-and-spend liberal, superior organization by the GOP. All of these things were a factor. Tell me which ONE is why he lost???? If anyone knows, they must be clairvoyant.
And as for me, I live in Fort Worth, TX. There is no gay ghetto here. You know what they say about assuming .....
We certainly don't demonstrate that. And my point was. Our votes are concentrated in places. Where they matter least to the Democratic Party nationwide. If no gay person voted in SF or West Hollywood. It would still be safely Democratic. It doesn't matter if we made up 20%. We just do NOT have the effects on elections like we would. If our numbers were right. Finally for such a large minority. Our presence is pretty scarce. If you step out of the ghettos. Just where are they hiding? How do they hide so successfully. We've fallen victim to our own propaganda. It's time to get real about "gay power".
[/quote]
[/quote]
Certainly we are more concentrated in big cities, but we are everywhere. I don't know that we need to be able to say that we were the single bloc that decided an election in order to be important. If we are, say, 1-2 percent of the vote in Waco, that's still 1-2 percent more votes for Democrats.
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 04:28 PM]
That's NOT the question. The question is how do we go about it. Do we try to adopt a sensible agenda. That can be pushed forward, or do we continue with the politics of confrontation and denunciation as we have been doing for 30 years..
Some times are better than others. This is certainly not a good time. Now is the time for planning and regrouping, not wasting valuable resources and time fighting battles . We will not win, and if we lose them now. We lose them for all our lifetimes.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Most of Canada has accepted same-sex marriage as the fair and equitable thing to do. Things seem to be going well, at least for now, in Massachusetts. Perhaps the gay community has been a bit too "flaming" for mainstream tastes at times, but we have made remarkable progress in the past 30 years. When I was growing up, "gay" didn't even exist, and there were NO role models. I think the gay community has matured greatly as time has passed, and we now have responsible organizations like HRC and Stonewall Democrats rather than just drag queens protesting. As for the same-sex marriage movement, the train is already rolling, and there is no way for gay leadership/organizations to stop it, even if they wanted to. Might as well get on board and have some say in the matter. I'm sorry, folks, but people are just not going to put their civil rights on the shelf for an election, no matter how much some people wish they would. Even if gay organizations agreed to do this, and I think to some extent they did agree to keep quiet for the Kerry campaign, they don't speak for all gays and lesbians.
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 04:28 PM]
YES WE DID. And it's this pigheaded stubborn streak of our own self-rightousness makes us a bad coalition partner to boot. How many Democratic leaders have to say the same thing for you to hear it? If you pop your head out of your ghetto. You'll find dozens and dozens of stories clearly showing the link between the fight for gay marriage and how we chose to go about it, and the victory of the social conservatives. I'm collecting them now.
You must not read the NYTimes, LATimes, MSNBC, CBS, CNN, FOX SF Chron Etc. They are the ones printing most of the pieces directly opposing your position. They say we did cost the Democrats big time. Perhaps you should try to read something other than the feel good rags. That make up the queer press. Maybe venture out of the gay ghetto, and get a feel for what the rest of America feels. Believe it or not to know what someone feels. It sometimes a good idea to ask them and listen. You're only listening to what you agree with.
[/quote]
[/quote]
All of the news media have done stories. Hey, it's a trendy story. And I'm not going to argue that the same-sex marriage issue had no impact. But I'm saying, forcefully, that IT DID NOT COST KERRY THE ELECTION. As I said in my previous post, you just can't pull something out like that and say that was the *one* thing that made the difference. Pick an issue: same-sex marriage, 9-11/terrorism, the "don't change horses" rule for a war, "Massachusetts liberal," flip-flopper, "I just don't like him," the Swift Boat ads, tax-and-spend liberal, superior organization by the GOP. All of these things were a factor. Tell me which ONE is why he lost???? If anyone knows, they must be clairvoyant.
And as for me, I live in Fort Worth, TX. There is no gay ghetto here. You know what they say about assuming .....
[quote=johnnyincentx,Nov 7 2004, 04:28 PM]
We certainly don't demonstrate that. And my point was. Our votes are concentrated in places. Where they matter least to the Democratic Party nationwide. If no gay person voted in SF or West Hollywood. It would still be safely Democratic. It doesn't matter if we made up 20%. We just do NOT have the effects on elections like we would. If our numbers were right. Finally for such a large minority. Our presence is pretty scarce. If you step out of the ghettos. Just where are they hiding? How do they hide so successfully. We've fallen victim to our own propaganda. It's time to get real about "gay power".
[/quote]
[/quote]
You say you're gay, yet you want to belittle gay people's accomplishments, downplay our political influence and blame us for Kerry's defeat. Are you a troll, or just one of those self-defeatist gay Republicans?
We certainly don't demonstrate that. And my point was. Our votes are concentrated in places. Where they matter least to the Democratic Party nationwide. If no gay person voted in SF or West Hollywood. It would still be safely Democratic. It doesn't matter if we made up 20%. We just do NOT have the effects on elections like we would. If our numbers were right. Finally for such a large minority. Our presence is pretty scarce. If you step out of the ghettos. Just where are they hiding? How do they hide so successfully. We've fallen victim to our own propaganda. It's time to get real about "gay power".
[/quote]
[/quote]
You say you're gay, yet you want to belittle gay people's accomplishments, downplay our political influence and blame us for Kerry's defeat. Are you a troll, or just one of those self-defeatist gay Republicans?
I am looking for equal rights, I am out, I'm not going to be silent, I am not going to support bigotry, and I will resist efforts to silence us.
Earlier I read one gay citizen's thread, about republicans lying to America about us for their own personal gain.At times one voice might not seem like much, then you read Sojourner Truth, or remember Rosa Park, Cesar Chavez, Harvey Milk.
NO organization told these heroes how to behave,NO committee consensus,or focus group was brought in to advise them. Other heroes will rise up, the president of Log Cabin Republicans proved he can lead bravely,(I apologise his name escapes me, but AIDS has taken much of my short term memory)Cheryl
Jacques is eloquent and talented. Another gay man here is in my age range mentioned Stonewall Riot, we've witnessed 35 years of struggle for equal rights.
Maybe I won't see the equality we've fought for,but I've out lived thousands of
my brothers with AIDS, and my original diagnosis would have had me dead in
1988.My point is, we don't know who will lead us,or if we will see the final results,
but you strive on, with as much courage and honor that you can muster.
NO organization told these heroes how to behave,NO committee consensus,or focus group was brought in to advise them. Other heroes will rise up, the president of Log Cabin Republicans proved he can lead bravely,(I apologise his name escapes me, but AIDS has taken much of my short term memory)Cheryl
Jacques is eloquent and talented. Another gay man here is in my age range mentioned Stonewall Riot, we've witnessed 35 years of struggle for equal rights.
Maybe I won't see the equality we've fought for,but I've out lived thousands of
my brothers with AIDS, and my original diagnosis would have had me dead in
1988.My point is, we don't know who will lead us,or if we will see the final results,
but you strive on, with as much courage and honor that you can muster.
QUOTE(underbear1 @ Nov 7 2004, 10:02 PM)
My point is, we don't know who will lead us,or if we will see the final results,
but you strive on, with as much courage and honor that you can muster.
but you strive on, with as much courage and honor that you can muster.
Yes, Underbear, we must continue to fight for progress, even if we personally do not get the rewards of the battle.
I'll have to admit, I really wish we had a strong, forceful leader to rally behind. Not to belittle admirable leaders like Cheryl Jacques and Barney Frank, but someone who could be the instant and recognizable face and voice for the hopes, dreams and political goals of the gay and lesbian community. Perhaps he or she is out there. In the meantime, Jacques, Frank, and even a brave heterosexual politician like Gavin Newsom, will have to suffice. They are higher-profile than leaders of the past.
QUOTE
Well, I'm not gay, and don't exactly see why I'm in this part of the forum but, anyway to my point.
I hope nobody in here would assume you're gay just because you care. I realize it happens all the time in the real world, but I'll take all the allies I can get.
Anyway, the notion that the gays lost this election is repugnant. Queers compose a significant part of the voting block and most of them vote for democrats and many donate large sums of money to the party. What some people don't seem to realize is that there will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be a group of people that the reepers attack and use to divide the country. If it's not the queers, it's women. If it's not women, it's the poor. If it's not the poor, it's the non-Christians.
We can't just start changing our values in order to win. The fact of the matter is that we DID have the popular vote and enough votes to win the election. The widespread fraud is UNBELIEVABLE. (See Palm Beach County: Washington Post) It's not the queers or anybody else that needs to change. The only changes we need is voting reform and regime change!
I'll pass on what the republican in gay clothing has had to say. About gays being a part of the Democrat party that aren't going away. Um, this one is. Bill Clinton signed the Orwellian named "Defense of Marriage Act" without a peep of protest or a veto. Kerry fell all over himself attempting to be pro-gay and anti-gay at the same time and only got my vote because Bush is the anti-Christ. Bush is gone next time around and if Democrats want my vote they'll have to earn it by supporting my rights - period. No don't ask don't tells. No civil unions. Full equality. Otherwise I vote third party for someone who does. Democrats have taken gay support for granted for FAR too long and it has to be earned. It's not an entitlement.
QUOTE(numbart @ Nov 8 2004, 09:11 AM)
I'll pass on what the republican in gay clothing has had to say. About gays being a part of the Democrat party that aren't going away. Um, this one is. Bill Clinton signed the Orwellian named "Defense of Marriage Act" without a peep of protest or a veto. Kerry fell all over himself attempting to be pro-gay and anti-gay at the same time and only got my vote because Bush is the anti-Christ. Bush is gone next time around and if Democrats want my vote they'll have to earn it by supporting my rights - period. No don't ask don't tells. No civil unions. Full equality. Otherwise I vote third party for someone who does. Democrats have taken gay support for granted for FAR too long and it has to be earned. It's not an entitlement.
Single issue voter- bad news. The party will have to make a choice- present a broad agenda addressing the many concerns of all citizens or be held hostage by a vocal minority. Gay rights is one but certainly not the only nor the most important issue to be addressed. If there is no compromise, if it is gay marriage or nothing, then I say sorry, hate to see you go.
all or none might be the way it seems to you, but this is our lives you are talking about. Yes, There are many other issues I am concerned about but I hate to see our country taken over by bible thumpers who preach hate as a way of life. What is so sacred about mairrage anyway? The divorce rate is 50% and that is not counting all the "straight" couples who stay legally married but seperated for years for one reason or another. We are talking rights not an institution.
Hi everyone. To those above who say they're not gay but are posting anyway, that's fine. In the original K/E forum, I logged on quite a bit in this topic and I am a straight woman. We all should be able to discuss this civil rights issue.
Johnny who started this thread: You sound very hurt and I don't blame you. But don't stop fighting. You can't. Anyway, there is no going back in our culture, despite the desires of the nuts who think they can return to some olden time when Father Knew Best and little woman was in the kitchen. Yecchh. Not gonna happen. We are where we are culturally and will not return to yesteryear. That's why the gay community should not consider retreat. They deserve equality, period.
Now as far as the Dem loss was concerned, I think it was more than that. People were stupid and moved by fear that the terrorists would invade their barn doors. In truth, it's the metropolitan areas that are more subject to invasion, but who thinks of that. <_< Many did not do their homework on the candidates. Otherwise, why would they elect a liar, thief, and profligate like Bush. A little background reading would have shown them the light.
Johnny who started this thread: You sound very hurt and I don't blame you. But don't stop fighting. You can't. Anyway, there is no going back in our culture, despite the desires of the nuts who think they can return to some olden time when Father Knew Best and little woman was in the kitchen. Yecchh. Not gonna happen. We are where we are culturally and will not return to yesteryear. That's why the gay community should not consider retreat. They deserve equality, period.
Now as far as the Dem loss was concerned, I think it was more than that. People were stupid and moved by fear that the terrorists would invade their barn doors. In truth, it's the metropolitan areas that are more subject to invasion, but who thinks of that. <_< Many did not do their homework on the candidates. Otherwise, why would they elect a liar, thief, and profligate like Bush. A little background reading would have shown them the light.
My way of looking at it is that gay people are the Jews of the new millenium. Of course, gay people were also the Jews of the last one as well, but arriving at the conclusion that gay people are responsible for a backlash against them seems like blaming Jews for their plight in Europe 70 years ago. After all, some Jews did own banks and some did own newspapers and some were successful in other ways, and we all know that one person's success *has* to come at the expense of others, right?
Here's the deal -- the people who have taken over the country are borrowing from a very familiar playbook. Make no mistake about it, their ministry of propaganda is alive and well and they realize that nothing unites people like fear and resentment. "Look! -- these people are taking something away from you!", they cry, "these people who want to take away your sacred institutions!". Now, of course any rational being would realize that nothing is being taken away at all, but it works because so many people do not think, do not want to think and are already so predisposed towards suspicion, distrust, envy, greed, and any of a number of characteristics. People are people, and subject to the same foibles.
I have no idea how far these people might go with this, and it may simply be a convenient political tool, or it may end up get as ugly as history has shown time and time again how a small minority can be targeted for persecution. This one is a little trickier, since the hateful are basing their hatred on "behavior" rather than ethnicity, failing, of course to define why the behavior is objectional in any rational way, and falling instead upon tired, old dogma, but the fact of the matter remains that this is an issue involving social dynamics of majority vrs. minority. I don't know if I have any answers, really, but I do know that going quietly doesn't work. It didn't work 70 years ago in Germany, and it won't work today.
I don't know. There has to be some way to form common ground with those who are different in many ways, but who can share an understanding and respect. I'm a married fellow, myself, but I fully support the rights of gay people. I'm not Jewish, either, but speak out against antisemitism. I really don't think an insular approach will work, and am concerned that this election may turn the gay community more inward, and make gay peole more distrustful of those who are not gay. That would be understandable, certainly, but I think att his time the gay community needs the support of those who are not gay more than ever.
"First, they came for the communists, but I did not speak............"
Here's the deal -- the people who have taken over the country are borrowing from a very familiar playbook. Make no mistake about it, their ministry of propaganda is alive and well and they realize that nothing unites people like fear and resentment. "Look! -- these people are taking something away from you!", they cry, "these people who want to take away your sacred institutions!". Now, of course any rational being would realize that nothing is being taken away at all, but it works because so many people do not think, do not want to think and are already so predisposed towards suspicion, distrust, envy, greed, and any of a number of characteristics. People are people, and subject to the same foibles.
I have no idea how far these people might go with this, and it may simply be a convenient political tool, or it may end up get as ugly as history has shown time and time again how a small minority can be targeted for persecution. This one is a little trickier, since the hateful are basing their hatred on "behavior" rather than ethnicity, failing, of course to define why the behavior is objectional in any rational way, and falling instead upon tired, old dogma, but the fact of the matter remains that this is an issue involving social dynamics of majority vrs. minority. I don't know if I have any answers, really, but I do know that going quietly doesn't work. It didn't work 70 years ago in Germany, and it won't work today.
I don't know. There has to be some way to form common ground with those who are different in many ways, but who can share an understanding and respect. I'm a married fellow, myself, but I fully support the rights of gay people. I'm not Jewish, either, but speak out against antisemitism. I really don't think an insular approach will work, and am concerned that this election may turn the gay community more inward, and make gay peole more distrustful of those who are not gay. That would be understandable, certainly, but I think att his time the gay community needs the support of those who are not gay more than ever.
"First, they came for the communists, but I did not speak............"
As a gay male, I know we need our suppoters in the battle ahead. I am not leaving the party since I know the party is the only one that actually believes in civil rights of any kind at this time. I will expect canidates to be supportive of my needs and willing to speak out against discrimination. Those who don't will lose my support and that of many Democrats- gay or otherwise.
Gay and Lesbians will take care of OUR own, in WHATEVER means we need to use.
This president and his architect won this election on HATE and FEAR. They will
REAP WHAT THEY'VE SOWN.
The States of America,(we aren't United,so why propagate a myth) have atleast
two years of ugly battles ahead,and I have no intention of helping with appeasement,collaboration,or self-loathing.
It's my wish that if all the voter fraud,black box ideas are false, the people
propogating these posts will just stop, false hope is worse than just facing reality.
Bush administration and their Christian Reich supporters, will find they
kicked a wasp's nest, whose contents when angered are viscious,secretive,and some of the most creative minds in the Nation. We are also very aware of what
works and doesn't work historicly,to fight oppression.Small cells are more difficult
to stop by authorities, self defense and being armed are still guaranteed in the
Constitution.
NO JUSTICE NO PEACE
SILENCE = DEATH
This president and his architect won this election on HATE and FEAR. They will
REAP WHAT THEY'VE SOWN.
The States of America,(we aren't United,so why propagate a myth) have atleast
two years of ugly battles ahead,and I have no intention of helping with appeasement,collaboration,or self-loathing.
It's my wish that if all the voter fraud,black box ideas are false, the people
propogating these posts will just stop, false hope is worse than just facing reality.
Bush administration and their Christian Reich supporters, will find they
kicked a wasp's nest, whose contents when angered are viscious,secretive,and some of the most creative minds in the Nation. We are also very aware of what
works and doesn't work historicly,to fight oppression.Small cells are more difficult
to stop by authorities, self defense and being armed are still guaranteed in the
Constitution.
NO JUSTICE NO PEACE
SILENCE = DEATH
I think that we need to expect *more* from the Democratic Party, not less. If we are willing to accept less, that is what we will get, and then less yet ...
It's awful that in this day and age, 35 years after Stonewall, a large chunk of heterosexual America still thinks that just shoving us back in the closet and making us invisible is a viable option.
It's awful that in this day and age, 35 years after Stonewall, a large chunk of heterosexual America still thinks that just shoving us back in the closet and making us invisible is a viable option.
QUOTE
Drop the in your face confrontation style. Stop contemptuously attacking the religious right. Gays have to stop spitting on their bible. It should no longer be funny for gays make religious jokes. You fuel their fear and hatred by letting them know. You think their faith is foolish, their beliefs childish. They deserve respect. If only for the power respecting them gives us.
Maybe it's time we pick one up and read a bible from cover to cover. IF we did. We'd find the ammunition we need to fight them. The scripture is what they believe. Scripture is the greatest weapon to fight them.
Maybe it's time we pick one up and read a bible from cover to cover. IF we did. We'd find the ammunition we need to fight them. The scripture is what they believe. Scripture is the greatest weapon to fight them.
Thank you, Rev. Falwell, I couldn't agree less.
The fear-biters and frothing radicals on the right have done more to divide this nation than any other group in our modern history. They need to be exposed, not mollified. I've yet to grasp how Gay marriage undermines Heterosexual marriage, and Bush never did explain his position on this. Indeed, marriage is on the rocks: the chance of a marriage ending in divorce range between 45-55%. That's hardly an indicator of a healthy institution. Perhaps Gays could improve that batting average, over time.
In the interim, it is imperative to fight back against the mendacity and hypocrisy of the radical religio-right. I believe referenda banning divorce and birth control would do far more to protect and defend marriage. Don’t you?
- General Alfie
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