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lawnorder
Jeff Fisher (and Activism) vindicated: FBI IS investigating the case

QUOTE
Dead voters on rolls, other glitches found in 6 key states


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/c...ll=chi-news-hed
Published December 4, 2004

Dead voters on rolls, other glitches found in 6 key states

By Geoff Dougherty, Tribune staff reporter. Tribune staff reporter Sarah Frank contributed to this report from Washington
Published December 4, 2004

Michel Pillet died in 2002, but his name lives on at the University of New Mexico. He created the school's graduate architecture program and directed it for years.

Pillet's name lives on in another way too. He's still listed as a registered voter in New Mexico, even though election officials are required to purge the names of deceased voters.

A Tribune analysis of voter records suggests that more than 5,000 dead people remained on the rolls on Election Day in New Mexico. The presidential election there was decided by 6,000 votes.

And New Mexico is not alone. The Tribune's review of voter data there and in five other key states--Florida, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan and Minnesota--found widespread flaws in the integrity of voter rolls.

More than 181,000 dead people were listed on the rolls in the six swing states, despite efforts to clean up the country's voting system after the 2000 election.

Thousands more voters were registered to vote in two places, which could have allowed them to cast more than one ballot.

Further, more than 90,000 voters in Ohio cast ballots without a valid presidential choice. Either they decided not to choose a candidate, the machine failed to register their choice, or they mistakenly voted for more than one candidate.

And the FBI is investigating allegations that Republicans in Florida mounted a large-scale campaign to tamper with ballots.

Those developments come after an election that most observers agree was a vast improvement over the 2000 vote.

Data on which voters cast ballots in the November election are not available in some key states as they await county compilations. So it's unclear whether any people registered in two places voted more than once. Likewise, it's impossible to tell whether ballots were cast in the names of the deceased voters on the rolls.

But the number of voters who should have been removed from the rolls and were not is considered cause for concern, especially in states where the presidential election was decided by just a few thousand votes.

"The problem of bloated registration rolls is a serious problem," said Dan Seligson, editor of electionline.org, a voting reform clearinghouse.

Legislation passed after the 2000 election was designed to fix some of those problems by requiring states to maintain better registration data. But those requirements take effect in 2006.

New Mexico health officials each month supply a list of recently deceased residents that Secretary of State Rebecca Vigil-Giron uses to scrub the voter rolls. But Pillet died in France and apparently never received a New Mexico death certificate, she said.

`Fell through the cracks'

"He fell through the cracks," said Vigil-Giron.

Francis Walsh, a former assembly worker at Chicago's American Can Co., retired and moved to Iowa. He died there in June 2002, but remains a registered voter in Des Moines.

The Tribune's analysis suggests 4,900 other Iowa voters have died but remain on the rolls.

Bush won Iowa by 10,000 votes.

Phyllis Peters, spokeswoman for the Iowa secretary of state's office, said workers there anticipated that many deceased Iowans would appear on the rolls.

Peters said her agency conducts a monthly purge of voters whose death certificates have been filed with the state vital statistics agency. But of course some people die elsewhere, complicating the process.

Data-entry errors can create problems too. On Walsh's voter information, he is listed as a female. But his death certificate said he was male, so computers did not remove him from the voter rolls, Peters said.

Despite the number of questionable registrations and Bush's thin margin of victory, Peters said she is confident in the election's outcome. That's due mostly to the 10,000 local election workers looking for suspicious voters, she said.

"We really believe there's a lot of integrity at the local precinct level," she said.

Among the states, Florida led the way with 64,889 registered voters who were also listed in a database of Social Security Administration death claims, the Tribune analysis found.

Next was Michigan, with 50,051.

The problem of duplicate voter registrations spurred Glenda Hood, Florida's secretary of state and top election official, to request help from the FBI before the election in weeding out double-voters.

"We believe that immediate and decisive action on the federal level is necessary to send a strong message that this type of illegal behavior and manipulation of the electoral franchise will not be tolerated," said Hood's letter, written Aug. 26.

William Fisher moved from Florida to Ohio and registered to vote. He was surprised to learn that he could have cast a second ballot in Florida.

"I'm retired now, and out of Florida, so I shouldn't be listed as a Florida voter anymore," he said.

In Ohio, civil rights leader Jesse Jackson is demanding a review of the election, saying too many questions have been raised to let Bush's win stand without further examination.

"We can live with winning and losing. We cannot live with fraud and stealing," Jackson said Sunday at Mt. Hermon Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio.

Voting complaints in Ohio have focused on the use of antiquated punch-card voting machines--the same type of machines that led to thousands of hanging chads in Florida four years ago.

Ohio recount sought

Meanwhile, third-party candidates, joined by Sen. John Kerry's campaign organization, have requested a recount in Ohio, which would begin after the election results are certified. That must happen by Monday.

A hearing on the recount request was held in federal court in Columbus on Friday.

County-by-county results provided to The Associated Press on Friday indicated Bush's margin of victory in Ohio will be about 119,000 votes, smaller than the unofficial margin of 136,000, mainly because of the addition of provisional ballots.

Ohio's so-called spoilage rate, ballots cast without a discernable vote for president, was lower than Florida's in the 2000 election. But the number of discarded ballots--92,000--represents a significant number, given that Bush's margin of victory was about 119,000 .

The state Democratic Party is watching the potential recount carefully, said spokesman Dan Trevas.

"It could be that we lost it," he said. "But if there's a little more to it, we've got to check it out. Let's just make sure everything's aboveboard."

In Florida, new touch-screen voting machines eliminated overvotes and chads. But some allege that ATM-like technology has created other problems.

University of California, Berkeley, professor Michael Hout compared voting patterns in the Florida counties that used the new machines with those that relied on ballots similar to the multiple-choice forms on standardized tests.

He found differences in those patterns that led him to conclude that computer problems with the new machines had given an edge to Bush. He suggested software glitches could have left some Kerry votes uncounted, or assigned them mistakenly to Bush.

"Statistically what we have is a smoke alarm that's beeping," said Hout. "It's up to the local people in Florida to figure out what to do about it."

Also in Florida, Democratic congressional candidate Jeff Fisher, who was defeated Nov. 2, said he had seen e-mails outlining a Republican plot to steal the presidential election. The plot, he said, involved election workers who created bogus voter registrations. The workers then rigged computers to show those ghost voters had cast ballots for Bush.

The FBI confirmed that Fisher had filed a complaint and that agents were investigating.
"
luaptifer
listen to wayne madsen interview on KPFK today:

http://www.kpftx.org/archives/kpftsignal/pls.php?mp3fil=1009

how was activisms vindicated? there IS a cyberNET group-cyberNET systems connection? i'd like to see the evidence for that, por favor :-)

as i've said, all i ever wanted BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors to do was to provide the concrete link between CNG and all the other companies he claimed were in league with CNG. so many times he said he had proof but so many times and to many people, he refused to provide that evidence.

why?! i dunno but it smelled stinky to me.

besides that point, the only other dispute i had with BV/A/A was his claim that CNG had a 9/11 connection.

QUOTE
and please consider that i'm very interested in seeing fraud and voting irregularities exposed.  but this person has attempted for weeks to establish a larger story based upon a much-disputed foundation. 

my larger fear is that he'll succeed in establishing the disputed foundational claims as 'fact' in the minds of investigators and provide the hidden chink in the armor that serves as the 'memogate' documents did to Dan Rather's Bush-AWOL story.  lesser is that many people will waste much time building upon the flawed foundation when they might have accomplished valid expositions in the meantime.

and should BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors ever prove the disputed claims upon which he's expended so much effort to build this story, i'll be happy to retract my refutation of his claims.  but that's unlikely given that several sources have invalidated several of them.


http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/12/5/14232/7575/64#64


if anyone's interested in the activisms thing, DU Bozoz for Bush summarized the story here:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcfo...m=DCForumID4412

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcfo...ewmode=threaded

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcfo...ewmode=threaded
lawnorder
QUOTE(luaptifer @ Dec 5 2004, 08:39 PM)
listen to wayne madsen interview on KPFK today:

http://www.kpftx.org/archives/kpftsignal/pls.php?mp3fil=1009

how was activisms vindicated?  there IS a cyberNET group-cyberNET systems connection?  i'd like to see the evidence for that, por favor :-) 

as i've said, all i ever wanted BlogVote/Activisms/Auditors to do was to provide the concrete link between CNG and all the other companies he claimed were in league with CNG.  so many times he said he had proof but so many times and to many people, he refused to provide that evidence. 

why?!  i dunno but it smelled stinky to me.

besides that point, the only other dispute i had with BV/A/A was his claim that CNG had a 9/11 connection.


I was refering to Activisms being villified HERE by a troll (brossignol) denying there was na FBI investigation...

BTW, there is a Florida / 9/11 connection...

in 1992.

QUOTE
Daily Kos :: Part Deux: Why Sibel Edmonds Will Never Talk

And I explained some information about Farhad Azima: his cargo airliner Baku Express, his role in modernizing Azerbaijan Airlines, and his business relationship with the owner of Huffman Aviation, Wally Hilliard, who trained two of the hijackers to fly.

In this episode, I leave Mrs. Edmonds alone and pursue a Pensacola connection to the tragedy of 9/11



Link:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/5/18732/7606
luaptifer
QUOTE(lawnorder @ Dec 5 2004, 09:48 PM)
I was refering to Activisms being villified HERE by a troll (brossignol) denying there was na FBI investigation...

BTW, there is a Florida / 9/11 connection...

in 1992.
Link:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/5/18732/7606
*


i meant to return to read his part II, i assume you read part I? potent stuff!

i'll have to check it out for that 9/11 connection but it's a diffferent one clearly than Auditors (at BBV) had cited. there he must not have read the article when he posted it cause it was the story of watson's suicide call to 911! thanks for the pointer.
lawnorder
QUOTE
FBI Investigates Florida Vote Hacking.
by Eternal Hope

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/5/144622/843

The FBI is paying attention to Jeff Fisher's allegations that the Republicans stole the election through hacking the machines. This is important because it strengthens Fisher's contention that a hacking did occur.

Yesterday, I wrote that no evidence for Fisher's claims existed outside his own websites. I based this conclusion on Fisher's statement of a few weeks ago in which he said he was going to talk to the FBI. But, as reported in the Chicago Daily Tribune, hardly a friend to progressivism, the FBI has listened to Fisher and is now investigating.

From the FBI's position, they have hundreds of cases to investigate. So if you want them to pay attention, you have to show them something. We are a long ways from proving that vote-hacking did occur. However, Fisher has enough evidence to get them to pay attention."
luaptifer
QUOTE(lawnorder @ Dec 5 2004, 10:03 PM)
*



yyaaaAAAY!! :-)
luaptifer
Transcript of Wayne Madsen interview 12/05 on Sunday Monitor

QUOTE(luaptifer @ Dec 5 2004, 09:39 PM)
listen to wayne madsen interview on KPFK today:

http://www.kpftx.org/archives/kpftsignal/pls.php?mp3fil=1009
*





Host: Well joining us again is Wayne Madsen. Wayne, welcome again to the Sunday Monitor.

Madsen: Hi, good to be with you.

Host: Wayne, for people who haven't listened to the show regularly, appears fairly frequently on this show and predominantly because he has such shocking information in many cases, which has often turned out to be quite accurate and one of those stories that you're working on right now, Wayne, and I guess we should give people a thumbnail sketch of what the story is in case they weren't listening last week. Can you just give us a quick rundown of how it all started and what you're looking at?

Madsen: Well, there was information floating around various, uhm, what I would have to say are informed circles in Houston and elsewhere that the money that was used to pay for technicians and programmers to rig this election came through a circuitous route that's been long connected to Bush family activities going back to the days of BCCI, Iran-Contra and other nefarious exploits and that this circuitous network and this trage of money that's been used in the past, a trage of money that's been associated with the Saudis, was used once again to pay people to come up with the software, especially that which was used on touchscreen voting machines, to fix this election... basically to cause votes to switch from one candidate to another, not for a large margin but just enough votes to, for the Republican candidates to squeek by. And certainly one of the things I have discovered within the last week that the 2004 election was not the only election where this rigged software was used. It was used as early as the 2000 election, which Al Gore as we know lost by a very narrow margin.

Host: Now, these are obviously very serious allegations, what kind of proof do you have? Last week you mentioned the 29 million dollar check. What's happened with that? What do you know about it?

Madsen: Yeah, it turns out that the 29 million dollar check, although a valuable clue, was a fake, but it looks like the people who released the check did so as a way to say hey look here, don't look at the check, look who's behind it, look around it, follow the money that these people have been involved with passing through various offshore entities in the past...

Host: So you think it was a clue to help you rather than to hinder you?

Madsen: I believe the intention might have been to hinder because the check obviously represents a scam involving Nigerian scammers but also involves individuals who apparently who have been tied and some documents that I've received from the U.S. district court here in Washington, D.C., uh, the person who obviously was involved in this bogus check has had an absolute verified past history with the CIA because the CIA is claiming that two documents he requested per a Freedom of Information Act request cannot be released because of national security grounds.

Host: So if all this stuff is indeed true that there was software that's being used to rig the election, how are we ever going to get this information out and do you see any prospect of this being accepted as actually having happened at some point? I mean it sounds at this stage and, you know me so you know I'm not accusing you of anything...

Madsen: Right...

Host: ...but people on the right and people who want to move on, so called, from democracy in a sense, that the vote didn't matter anymore and we should be over it, will say that this sounds like a conspiracy theory and that you don't have any proof. Where do you take this from here and how do you answer those allegations?

Madsen: Well, I'm going to get this article out, I've got help from researchers here in Washington, on the net, on the web, people, especially with the Democratic Underground have been very good in helping to follow leads and get clues... I'm going to try to get this article sent out tonight, probably won't get posted until the morning... Look, as far as proof, I've got a notarized affidavit from one of the programmers that was involved in rigging the software... It took place... the genesis for this was not this year, last year, it was in 1999 in Florida involving a U.S. government contracter with contracts with NASA. The individual in question has come forward... and I think people will hear more about what he has to say in the coming week because there's going to be a forum sponsored Michigan congressman John Conyers on Wednesday and I think a lot of people will hear what the background for this story is if they watch C-SPAN.

Host: Now, you mentioned Democratic Underground and I wanted to just give people a quick link, something that I saw on there that was very interesting, if you go to safevoting.org you can download a video clip of actually something that took place in Texas, I believe, and it was a Diebold software meeting where they were trying to certify a machine and they are on tape saying it's got problems and it doesn't count and the tally doesn't match the vote and we'll certify it anyway because we've done it in the past so it's a very interesting video clip. It's safevoting.org. Wayne, you mentioned a signed affidavit, what motivates a person like that to publically express these things? Is it sour grapes at not being paid or what happened?

Madsen: No, it wasn't sour grapes, the person obviously was under the impression when he was first asked to create a program that it was going to be used to prevent fraud using touchscreen machines but he didn't realize it had an entirely opposite purpose. It's not that the person has been trying to keep this secret. I have to blame the news media. The individual... this results from a huge whistleblower case in Florida involving a Florida... a contracter for the Florida Department of Transportation... we... one of the things that will be coming out in the article is we have information that pretty much proves that the chief investigator for the Florida Department of Transportation that was looking into this company, this contractor and its involvement in creating vote rigging software, they say he committed suicide back on July 1st, 2003, last year, but we have evidence to show that it was not suicide, that likely he was murdered because he was going places where a lot of people were getting nervous.

Host: Well, that partially answers my next question, which was going to be, something like this would have to involve a serious number of people keeping quiet and how do you keep a large number of people quiet when this kind of potential vote rigging is going on and I guess you already partly answered that. Do you have any more thoughts on the number of people who would have to be involved in this to make it work and making sure that they all stay quiet?

Madsen: Yeah, of course it's like every other past scandal, like Iran-Contra, and the BCCI scandal... you know, small groups of people know so much about their particular area, you know, the part they play, uh, very few people have the big picture and that's one of the things that's been really difficult in following this story with bogus checks and false leads and what one former Department of Justice prosecutor told me is typical of organized criminal syndicates and covert activities, that these feints, as he called them, are put up, they run parallel to the actual movement of money and it's used to, of course, throw government investigators off the track and that's why this stuff is done using these offshore accounts and these people who are, you know, con men, you know the CIA has used in the past many con men and some people would suggest that the current director of the CIA is one of them.

Host: Well, yeah, well, I don't even know what to say about that. I was going to ask you something about the locking down of precincts. In the first article you wrote... our previous guest, actually the first guest we had was talking about the media being kept out of various places where they were doing counts, and that that was a serious red flag for him... you wrote about locking down of precincts where votes were being tallied, how many of those can be verified, how many precincts were locked down?

Madsen: Well, apparently there was the one report out of Warren County, Ohio but now there's reports from around the country that similar things took place, I believe New Mexico, North Carolina, Florida, places in Texas and southern California similar things happened.

Host: Do you have any suggested places where people could look where they could find out where that happened?

Second Host: Actually, I just found out, Wayne, that in Harris County, at the big tabulation place on the evening of the election, there was a power outage. It was at Reliant Center and it was Reliant Company's electricity that went out for several hours and people were told to go home.

Host: Harris County is here in Texas for those listening on the web and I know some do so that's a local interest story for us. Do you have any suggested places where people can get more information on those things because I've had some questions about that, you know, the one case in Ohio is fairly well known but you're saying it was happening elsewhere as well...

Madsen: I think anybody who would look at Riverside County, California may find some irregularites there... why Californi? Well everybody know that was going to go for John Kerry but we saw an increase in Bush's vote in California, which is rather surprising compared to what he got in the 2000 election. And there's some thought that in Texas and California , very populous states of course, that the votes were padded to give Bush this some three and a half million vote, popular vote margin, which would be obviously part of the scam to make it look like he had a runaway victory but it looks very apparent that because of the problems with the software now we have evidence that this vote switching program that was designed to suppress Democratic vote... we have the name of the then Speaker of the House of the Flordia House of Representatives that he personally requested that this work be done because he was a chief lobbyist and general counsel for the firm that was a NASA contractor in the state of Florida, the contractor that performed the development of the software, current Republican Congressman Tom Feeney. So, this isn't a case of having dead people vote in Chicago any longer, this was a huge criminal enterprise, it affected a number of elections, it affected a number of candidates who won the election but the results showed that they lost... everyone from Gray Davis in California to Max Cleland in Georgia, possibly Janet Reno in her unsuccessful bid to become the Democratic candidate for Governor of Florida. The evidence is there and I think if we had an FBI we could rely on this is a criminal investigation having to do with money laundering, having to do with influence peddling, with bribery and it's no longer just vote fraud, this is a criminal investigation and should be treated as one.

Second Host: Wayne, looking back at some of the scandals that we've been through in the last few years, like Enron, Abu Ghraib and so on, there's a tendency the moment the light shines, for all the mice to run away and leave one in the middle holding the bag, like Abu Ghraib, you know, it was supposedly, you know, half a dozen bad apples... what's to prevent that from happening here, where some low person or middle person gets stuck holding the bag?

Madsen: Well, I mean, I'm confident that the people that we know of in Florida who have already gone on record as whistleblowers, unfortunately one person who was on to this died last year under some very mysterious circumstances... my hope is that, you know, this will stick where it needs to stick and obviously what happened in Florida with the development of the software was fully known to Jeb Bush, was fully know to the Speaker of the House at the time, Tom Feeney, who, at the same time he was Speaker of the House of Representatives in Florida, was a registered lobbyist for this company, Yang Enterprises in Oveido, Florida, which has a lot of contracts with the Kennedy Space Center... interestingly enough, Feeney's wife is an engineer at the Kennedy Space Center... the money that I talked about with Five Star Trust, apparently from all indications they may have used NASA contract vehicles to get the money to the software developers to create the software program and, of course, Five Star was associated with Houston and we know that the Johnson Space Center has contractors there, and the name Sean OKeefe, the NASA administrator has come up very prominent in this scandal as well.

Host: Well, on that note, Wayne, I'm going to have to leave it there but thanks again for joining us and certainly keep me updated on the story and we'll see where it goes.

Madsen: It's a breaking story as I speak.

Host: It keeps on breaking and we'll see where it goes from here. Thanks a lot again for joining us.

Second Host: www.onlinejournal.com is where you can find Wayne's stories.

Host: Yeah, there should be another one up there tomorrow morning I believe. That's all the time we have for the show tonight. Our guests were Cliff Arnebeck, James Galbraith and Wayne Madsen.

snagged from DU's post of it http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ress=203x116796
bloggy
Did anyone ever think of this: maybe the fraud perpetrators know that the fraud will eventually be found out, but they don't care because they know that by the time it is their candidate will have been elected just as he was in 2000?

And besides they don't think that we democrats have to moxy to fight them. The Ukrainians showed the way but we do nothing. Why is that? Is it beccause we are sure positive yet or are we just yellow? Look we did nothing about what happened in 2000. Why?
edowling
QUOTE(bloggy @ Dec 6 2004, 09:44 AM)
Did anyone ever think of this:  maybe the fraud perpetrators know that the fraud will eventually be found out, but they don't care because they know that by the time it is their candidate will have been elected just as he was in 2000?

And besides they don't think that we democrats have to moxy to fight them.  The Ukrainians showed the way but we do nothing.  Why is that?  Is it beccause we are sure positive yet or are we just yellow?  Look we did nothing about what happened in 2000.  Why?
*


I've asked all these questions too... why why why won't we stand up? I am a bit under the weather today, I should be back in Columbus (a 2 hour drive from here), but I was outside on Saturday Dec 4th at the Columbus Statehouse Steps with my signs and handouts... I'm from Akron, and there were people at Columbus from out of state, but where were the people from Columbus? There were a few, but, I would think that some of the people who had stood in line for 9 hours and were denied the proper right to vote should have been there too. But, I also don't blame them... after having their dignity taken away, they may be experiencing the kind of trauma that crime victims experience; and without the media to report on the fraud, they may feel that they are alone. So, maybe we have to reach out to people who were disenfranchised, because they may turn their backs on this country altogether. And, although it will create anarchy, those dictators in power will use that also to stay in power. It also doesn't help that the big DNC and Kerry camps aren't speaking up with as much force as the grassroots groups.

But the first question... I think somebody posted that a recount was done in Florida in 2001 even though the Supreme Court had stopped it from having any effect, and Gore won... but this was publicized either right before or right after September 11, 2001, and was buried. So, are people afraid that something else terrible will happen to distract us if the numbers are re-counted and Kerry wins?

I've looked at theories about the archetecture of the World Trade Center and the Pentegon, and my husband worked in the south tower of the WTC from 1980 to 1982 so I've been there... I disagree with some theories, but Bush must answer some questions: It is true that the only debris found at the Pentegon was from a much smaller plane engine than a jetliner, but at least, Bush did nothing to scramble jets all the time he was reading "My Pet Goat," and even if it was completely an enemy attack, he could have prevented at least the Pentegon attack. So, Bush is clearly culpable for that one through negligence. But, who rigged the Trade Center? Some say it was rigged with explosives, but no little explosives could have dropped the whole building that way; instead the entire wall structure was held together by long-span supports for the floors, which were attached to the outside walls by little pins of a very small diameter. I was up in the Trade Center on the 87th floor and on the roof, and the building constantly swayed more than an ocean liner which at least has a gyroscope, but the whole structure was held together by pins. Metalurgists already knew about metal fatigue. They also knew that in an emergency, you cannot pump water from the basement to upper floors. There were no water towers at the top of the building. But, plans for the building's archetecture were approved, and therefore, I must think back: this was a planned disaster from the day the plans were approved to build it. We must look back then to see... hmmmm, what kind of thing could a government have been worried about in the 1960s and early 1970s... the Woodstock generation taking over? Did they need a "Pearl Harbor" scenario then? O.K., accuse me of a grand conspiracy theory, but the facts are these: metal fatigue was known; the WTC would encounter great winds at oceanside, including occasional hurricane-force winds; little pins held the whole structure together; there were few provisions for emergencies and nowhere to land for a helicopter or other emergency transport on the roof; fire-walls to the interior were made out of drywall; exit stairs were not enough for the people in the buildings, there were no other emergency elevators, slings, or other way to exit; and all of this was approved by a city which otherwise has the strictest safety codes for sprinkler systems and exit safety in the country. And then there is the case of the number 7 building that was purposely pulled down after the rest of the Trade Center, according to the owner Shel Silverstein... to place the charges for the demolition in a burning building would be impossibe, and such charges take a long time to set, but the building came down soon after the towers, and Shel Silverstein says it was demolished. I may not buy the theory that the twin towers were brought down with explosives, but the number 7 building? It gives me the creeps, at the very least. If that building came down on its own, and Shel Silverstein was not telling the truth, then there is still the matter of the structure of that building to consider, and why a small building that didn't have a jet plane through it would collapse so easily (again all the arguments that NYC has the most stringent fire and building safety codes). And, again, the "Woodstock generation" may have been what those planners had been afraid of.

Altogether, the actions of Bush reading "My Pet Goat" at the very least, and the structure of the buildings that collapsed and lack of evidence of a large jet at the Pentegon, must be considered (and I am not even including the $100,000 payoff that Atta received by Goss and other cronies high up in the American government); all these actions lead me to be very worried about what indeed would happen if it is all found out that Kerry wins, but found out after the inauguration... are we going to have some other terrorist disaster to keep all of us silent? Yes, the fact that people are not protesting in the streets is very strange, but I think that, at least subconsciously, people are beginning to be so afraid of their own government that they are afraid to speak out... At least in the Ukraine today there is freedom, but here in America we are keeping the kind of silence that you only find in countries that are run by dictatorships.
lawnorder
QUOTE(bloggy @ Dec 6 2004, 09:44 AM)
Did anyone ever think of this:  maybe the fraud perpetrators know that the fraud will eventually be found out, but they don't care because they know that by the time it is their candidate will have been elected just as he was in 2000?

And besides they don't think that we democrats have to moxy to fight them.  The Ukrainians showed the way but we do nothing.  Why is that?  Is it beccause we are sure positive yet or are we just yellow?  Look we did nothing about what happened in 2000.  Why?
*

Hindsight is 20/20

In 2000 we didn't know Bush was going to be more like Atila the Hun than like George Ford.... So we decided to just endure his 4 years
lawnorder
QUOTE(edowling @ Dec 6 2004, 10:59 AM)
I've asked all these questions too...  why why why won't we stand up?  I am a bit under the weather today, I should be back in Columbus (a 2 hour drive from here), but I was outside on Saturday Dec 4th at the Columbus Statehouse Steps with my signs and handouts...  I'm from Akron, and there were people at Columbus from out of state, but where were the people from Columbus?  There were a few, but, I would think that some of the people who had stood in line for 9 hours and were denied the proper right to vote should have been there too.  But, I also don't blame them... after having their dignity taken away, they may be experiencing the kind of trauma that crime victims experience; and without the media to report on the fraud, they may feel that they are alone...
*


Kerry's early concession pratically ensured that any fight would be DOA sad.gif
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