[/quote]

Well it's still not a statement by Kerry. It is someone else saying how Kerry feels.

Meg
[/quote]

ok--the first attempt at a spin. so kerry is feeling different from what his spokesperson is saying?

am i to believe that?

We are not going to overturn the election. But we will have an impeachment

by the way

why don't we ask cobb and badnarik


how THEY feel


about this kerry/mcauliffe statement....

Da__ it, I want someone to audit those machines, whether it changes
the election or not! I'm not giving one penny to the Democrats until
I know there's a paper trail and audit trail and we can prove they
aren't cheating.

Well regardless of what they say now, if the recount shows that Kerry won Ohio, I think that they will change their mind. Yes there is no chance of overturning Ohio, if the voting was counted legally.

Meg

and why don't we ask arnebeck and his group of

ohians

how they feel

about this kerry/mcauliffe

statement

Has anyone downloaded the fifteen-page letter sent Thursday to Ohio's Secretary of State Blackwell from the 12 congressmen? Is it posted somewhere here on CGCS? If not, it should be. We downloaded and printed it at school today and it blew our s**t away! (Even the Republican teachers who voted for Bush.) I got it from a link on Olbermann's Bloggermann page in the first paragraph on the VOTES, STEROIDS, AND SHOES story which is his recent one as of right now.
Keith Olbermann's quote: "posterity is a stern taskmaster" This will ring in our ears for a long time unless we can restore our faith in the voting process.

Is it possible to post this 15 page letter somewhere where even visitors can have access to it on the CGCS front page? I think that would be very enlightening to everyone. It is a valuable resource to have!

Can anyone answer my question here? I'd really appreciate help!

BUMP! :o

hi meg, there were some threads about this yesterday which you might want to consult. they focus on how the cobb/badnarik recount is being invalidated by kerry's lack of participation. these statements were made by lawyers not laypeople, so check them out.

No reason to start worrying (imo)... it feels like the same strategy to me as the one we've seen to date. Kerry concedes, no explanations, then this behind the scenes activities start up and grow increment by increment, and gradually the idea that there was serious problem with 2004 election enters public consciousness, and when there is something so concrete as to not be discredited.....then, and only then will Kerry have something to say. What would you have him be saying now, I wonder? Hey look, vote fraud, right here, and I unconcede. Not likely.

If something concrete enough to be prosecuteable emerges, only then would it be reasonable to expect Kerry to speak to it, and until then we just wait and act and wait and act and wait and act.

Have you noticed though that Kerry is not sitting idly, has formed the PAC now, contributed to WA state governor election, visited New Hampshire, planning to visit Iowa to thank his supporters, has the children's medical co-sponsored petition going on, thought I heard today Kerry planning to oppose B*** on - oh I forgot what that was about.

So worse case scenario, is that we don't have time left now before electors submit their electoral vote, and we wind up not being able to bring Kerry to inauguration...... then what? I shudder to think, as I'm still holding onto my wistful thread of hope that enough comes out on vote fraud that Kerry can still take office in January, in which case all the protests planned for B*** inauguration can be transformed into cheering crowds for the Kerry inauguration.

And yet today I recieved a letter stating ................................................................................
.......................... ." The Ohio Democratic Party in cooperation with the Kerry Edwards Campaign will participate in a recount to be conducted in every precinct in Ohio. We are doing this to insure that every vote that was cast for President is counted in Ohio. There have been sufficient election count errors and concerns regarding provisional ballots, overseas absentee ballots, under votes(no candidate punched) over votes(more than one vote punched) that we feel it necessary to take this extraordianry step.
In addition to filing the necessary legal documents we will be recuriting witnesses for the recount and organizing the process necsessary to ensure a full and accurate recount is conducted"

So.... What is the intention of the Democratic Party???? Who Knows???????? Maybe Kerry has hung it up, or maybe he is hoping for a different outcome, but it sure seems that they intend to support the recount, but not necessarily to challenge the election results. This is the part that conuses me. Is the Dem Party deliberately making confusing statements? Is it just me? Is there more to this than meets the eye??? Do we ,or do we not, support this effort? I really want election reform, and I am willing to work to see it through, but I also believe that many people worked really hard for John Kerry and he should really make a public stand one way or the other so that his supporters know what he expects. Maybe he doesn't know how many voters look to him as a leader of the Democratic Party. In any case, I will volunteer for this good cause, even if it doesn't result in my candidate winning. If I can help everyone vote fairly and accurately, I'm in 100%. BUt ....I still wish the Dems would clarify their position.

I tried to bump this up and it didn't work. Trying one more time. I'm still waiting for anyone who can answer my question about this 15 page letter. HELP!!!!!!!!

It's over. Everything our parents and poor parents worked hard for is gone. All the visions of a Kerry inaguration are gone I guess. Sadly our nightmare will continue.

Link to the letter; someone posted this on the forum the other day.

Congress letter to Blackwell, 12-02-04 http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/o...ellltr12204.pdf

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/o...ellltr12204.pdf http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/o...ellltr12204.pdf

Yeah I know, the link to the 15 page letter is in pdf format. Can it be copied? Is that legal? Can it be posted here? Is that unconstitutional? lol or just too d****d long and boring to read? I'm just afraid a lot of folks are unable to download it.

It was posted for public consumption so I'm sure it's fine we posted a link to it.

People can get a free and quick download of acrobat reader at www.adobe.com

Okay. Cool. Put it on the front page of CGCS with instructions on the download and all for both PC's and Macs for all us folks who aren't too techy. I had to get my computer lab tech at school today to come over to the Kindergarten and install the software. Yes, even many veteran teachers aren't computer savy yet. No wonder Americans can't get the truth!

i dunno....

everything i've analyzed and predicted based on past relevant behaviour is on the mark... kerry joins the recount effort and then someone says "felt comfortable" with the results... doesn't make sense....

but you know what... i'm going to put it all up to providence... whatever will be, will be.... i appreciate kerry doing all he can, i don't want to interfere (or imagine myself interfering) anymore... i gotta stop comparing what i think what should be with what is... what i want for others is a bit hypocritical to insist upon if i say i'm all for a democracy... after all, if certain individuals want to do more than vote, that is, if in the name of what they feel is best for there country is go thru the trouble of destoying the votes of others and others feel comfortable "shrugging" their shoulders and saying "ok, i guess thats it" then what am i splashing about in the water for....

like i said, i appreciate that kerry is doing whatever he can and if deep in his heart he knows that he is right and/or he knows what to do then i'll support him directly or indirectly anyway that i can... and if bush wants to think that he is the better man for the job, better for the economy, has better policies abd wants to look apast the fact that some people may have fixed votes for him then why should i complain... he was here recently stating his case and wishing us the best no matter what, i can't fault a guy for trying his best... if he honestly thinks he is the rightful candidate for the job despite what he may or may not know then thats an issue between him and the people of the united states....

i only ask that kerry keep on doing whatever he feels is in the best interests of the country and within his power to carry out.... i cannot ask more than that from anyone....

i haven't given up... i'll try to imagine kerry as president but you know, what i want has to be placed on a level with what others want... thats why we call it a democracy.... underhanded or not....

it's all a learning experience...

- perry

BG, did you watch Obermann? It was on when I was walking in from work, perfect timing! But Terry McAulfie - wow, remember him?- was on and he was saying they will do everything, no matter what cost, to make sure that every vote was counted.

and Edwards was on Cspan yesterday, and said that it is not over, and that every vote will be counted!

Confusing - yes! But what I'm wondering is if they want every vote to be counted, but they don't think it will overturn the election?!?

I don't know - we are getting such mixed messages!!!

The only really depressing statement I saw was, "We know we are not going to overturn the election." But McAuliffe said it, not Kerry.

The only really depressing statement I saw was, "We know we are not going to overturn the election." But McAuliffe said it, not Kerry.

Tired of this pathetic DNC leadership caving into Smirky and Pillsbury Roveboy. They have had 4 long years to fix the voting process. I am sorry but I fault both parties for this. I nominate Dean, Congresswoman Jackson-Lee, or Mfume (former NAACP pres) for DNC chairman. Why not just say this election should be invalid? At least the Ukaraine people have more sense than we do. Ranting over!

I agree, Kerry didn't make make that statement. I think Kerry is thinking realistically. You know hope for the best prepare for the worst type mindset.

and the spinning goes on. are you suggesting mcauffle was lying about what kerry was feeling or saying. sorry to say your suggestion doesn't sound credible to me.

If our democrat leaders don't start speaking out about voting problems we all might as well join the Republican party. Bush is smiling and going, "lmfao!"

maybe kerry should refrain from making such statements or from having his spokesperson make them. that might be more helpful.

John Kerry and John Edwards should hold a press conference NOW! Ohio vote fiasco needs national attention!

correction: it's mcauliffe, not mcauffle (i guess i was thinking of 'awful,' when i botched up his name).

these people over at the dnc are just hopeless...

They're trying to lull BushCo into a false sense of security..you know...like when the cops are telling you "it's just routine", meanwhile you're their #1 suspect in a string of murders. They're playing possum. Duh! "We know we won't find anything, we're just trying to appease the dam public".

no wicheewoman, that's not the case. i used to say that early on in november, but this late, you can forget about it.

at a certain point you'll have to face reality and recognize that they mean exactly what they say.

That's why I think Kerry is thinking realistically regarding this situation. Plus why isn't Kerry speaking for himself? That speaks volumes in itself. I don't believe it is too late. It may be too late for some things but I believe fraud will be uncovered eventually and whether it takes a year or two years, it will be found. I don't believe this Fraud issue is going to go away. Too many people complaining that Bush stole the election.

That statment is not new, we've heard it before. What is so depressing about it?

The Repugs might get their panties all in a wad if they knew Kerry might unconcede.
Kerry knows what he's doing and believe me If after the recount Kerry comes out ahead
the American people will raise hell and demand Bush to step down.

this one sounds more promising...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ress=203x120937

Is the NY Times Mainstream Enough?

Snip<<<<<<

Democratic officials, walking a fine line between their angry liberal base and centrist voters who consider the election over, said they were not contesting the results. But they said they planned to use the results of their investigation, which is to be completed by the summer, to demand changes to the electoral systems in Ohio and other states.

Snip<<<<<

Lawyers for the Green Party and the Libertarian Party - supported by Senator John Kerry's presidential campaign - are also expected to file requests on Tuesday in each of Ohio's 88 counties seeking a recount, a process that could take several weeks. The Kerry camp said it was not challenging the outcome of the contest but wanted to make sure all votes were counted.

And on Wednesday, lawyers from the Alliance for Democracy, a group based in Massachusetts that advocates fair elections, plan to ask the Ohio Supreme Court to throw out the election results and declare Mr. Kerry the winner. Officials with the group, which is filing the request on behalf of 25 Ohio voters, said they would be able to demonstrate widespread irregularities and fraud in the heavily Republican counties surrounding Cincinnati.

Check out Buzzflash about Florida...............Interesting

Maybe so..but it's a "spin", nonetheless :D

Here's another source for related correspondence.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/c...ce/letters.html

I just don't see what you may be seeing. About 400 or so people were present at the protest in Ohio on Sunday. Not exactly a sign that the American people are upset about the election. The great majority have accepted the results and moved on already.

After the 2000 election, I read numerous posts in other forums about how the people were outraged over Florida. Yes, they the people were so pissed that in 2002, they gave control of the Senate back to the Republicans, allowed them to increase their lead in the House and re-elected Jeb Bush to another term in a landslide.

yep, great spinning! :D

lots of spinmeisters on this board.

[quote=DutyCalls,Dec 6 2004, 10:54 PM]
this one sounds more promising...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ress=203x120937

Is the NY Times Mainstream Enough?

Snip<<<<<<

Democratic officials, walking a fine line between their angry liberal base and centrist voters who consider the election over, said they were not contesting the results. But they said they planned to use the results of their investigation, which is to be completed by the summer, to demand changes to the electoral systems in Ohio and other states.
Snip<<<<<unquote


here we have it: the compromise democractic officials, "walking a fine line," trying to please everybody.

for the record, let me ask them how they think they are going to turn up any results or evidence without doing recounts which would allow for the machines and tabulators to be checked/impounded, if need be. how will they be able to prove or disprove the voting fraud allegations when they don't even have the necessary tools to do so.

let me guess: they'll come out with a doorstopper report no one will be reading or paying attention to.

business as usual.

You're absolutely right! Now is the time for a national press conference. If Senator Kerry remains in the background while vote after vote is overturned and counted in his favor, he'll become a laughing stock - like Gore in 2000 - for the foolishly early concession and gift of the presidency to the most evil person in recent history. It's time for him to make some noise and not through spokespeople. IMHO, he has to do something if he expects people to trust him in a run in 2008. I won't support someone who won't fight for an election.

It might be useful in getting some context on the Dems and Kerry's statements to read Keith O's latest blog entry.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

Certified and/or certifiable

SECAUCUS - Exactly one month to the day before Congress will open the votes of the Electoral College, the Secretary of State of Ohio certified the state’s vote this afternoon, that moment in time which separates the Re-Count Exhibition Season from the Re-Count Regular Season.

Exactly per his legally-supported schedule, Kenneth Blackwell this afternoon made the November 2 vote official. With provisionals, absentees, and corrections, it turned out to be not a 136,000 vote margin for President Bush, but rather one of 119,000. The certification was almost immediately greeted by two protests, the prospect of a third, and the details of a fourth.

Green Party presidential candidate David Cobb today scheduled a news conference for Tuesday afternoon in Columbus at which the re-count request from he and Libertarian Party presidential candidate Michael Badnarik will be formalized.

Still delayed, a long, long, long-shot bid - spearheaded by attorney Cliff Arnebeck - to have an Ohio Supreme Court Justice contest the actual election — holding off making the first count official until voting irregularities are reviewed. Mr. Arnebeck told us this afternoon that it now may be Wednesday before his suit is filed.

But the protests are not just from the fringes any more. Citing the long lines, shortages of ballots, voting machine meltdowns, and spoiled ballots, Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe announced his party would spend "whatever it takes" to conduct what it calls "a comprehensive investigative study" of the vote in Ohio, one to be completed some time next year.

But just as McAuliffe insisted that the study was not intended "to contest the results of the 2004 election,” a slightly different message was coming from what remains of the Kerry-Edwards campaign in Ohio. Kerry's lead electoral attorney there, Daniel Hoffheimer, echoed the McAuliffe tone, noting "neither the pending Ohio recount nor this investigation is designed to challenge the popular vote in Ohio.”

But in another moment of perplexing tantalization from the Kerry camp, Hoffheimer also said, “while the election of the Bush-Cheney ticket by the Electoral College is all but certain..."

Well that’s enough to drive the remaining Kerry faithful right out of their capsules. File it next to “regardless of the outcome of this election,” and the debate over whether the campaign in Ohio should “join” or “participate in” the Glibs’ recount.

Meantime, what happens when the losing party in the election wants to investigate the election, but has no standing nor political capital to conduct actual hearings in, say, the House of Representatives? It hosts a "forum" — a friendly little informal gathering of members of the House Judiciary Committee in the Rayburn Office Building, Wednesday morning.

John Conyers and as many as dozen of the other 15 Democrats on Judiciary, who say they want to "discuss any issues and concerns regarding the numerous voting irregularities that have been reported in Ohio during the 2004 election."

Conyers has invited a special guest — none other than Warren Mitofsky, the head of Mitofsky International, one of the two companies that conducted exit polling for the television networks. Conyers has written to Mitofsky, asking him to release any of the so-called "raw data" from November 2, the materials constituting the exit polls that fired such controversy, particularly on the internet, and show up to Wednesday's little gathering.

Conyers' office told us Mr. Mitofsky has yet to R.S.V.P.

Interestingly, in the letter to Mitofsky, Conyers is not at all informal. He says Mitofsky can best serve truth right now “by testifying at a hearing we will be holding…”

If you’d like somebody to testify on behalf of the proposition that you’re not nuts for reading about, nor asking, questions, try the Public Editor’s column in Sunday’s edition of the Portland paper, The Oregonian. There, Mike Arrietta-Walden says the foremost complaint received from readers, is about his newspaper’s spotty coverage of voting irregularities. It’s very possible that a lot of the reader feedback was encouraged by websites, but that’s par for the course, as Mediaweek’s piece on the number of Brent Bozell-generated form letters received by the Federal Communications Commission.

What matters most, perhaps, is that while Arrietta-Walden notes the geographical distance between Portland and most of the election hot spots dictated the paper would have to rely on wire services, he still sees his newspaper (and others) as asleep at the switch: “That coverage, especially from national newspapers, has not been extensive and deep, but The Oregonian hasn't taken full advantage of what coverage there was. The lukewarm interest shown by many newspapers partly stems from the fact that leaders of the Kerry campaign and experts with several nonpartisan election watchdogs have repeatedly said that the errors detected would not amount to a reversal of the election. Journalists have moved on to other, pressing stories of the day.”

Arrietta-Walden is also cautionary about the wisdom of letting the blogs drive the net. He didn’t mention Wayne Madsen by name, but he might well have.

When Mr. Madsen’s internet piece positing a $29,000,000 payoff to “fix” the election made the rounds, I wrote here that the journalism didn’t live up to many minimum standards, and the logic, even fewer (somebody promised to pay off people to rig the election computers, gave at least some of them the full history of how the money was to be laundered — and then didn’t ante up?).

Mr. Madsen followed up with another piece in which he claimed to have an actual copy of the check. A single election-fixing check for $29.6 million. One-stop shopping for the political scandal of the millennium.

Now, he is back with an even longer, more intricate story that drags in NASA, Lockheed Martin, Brazilian computer maintenance technicians, Nigerian scammers, and a reputed affidavit that fingers a Florida congressman.

The problem is that the amazing check for $29.6 million, whose authenticity was the cornerstone of Madsen’s first two stories, not only turns out to be a fraud, but now, its fraudulence becomes one of the cornerstone’s of Madsen’s newest story. As he told the Pacifica radio station (KPFT) in Houston Sunday, “Yeah, it turns out that the $29 million check, although a valuable clue, was a fake. But it looks like the people who released the check did so as a way to say ‘hey, look here, don’t look at the check, look who’s behind it, look around it, follow the money that these people have been involved with…’”

Once again, if any part of Mr. Madsen’s writing on the election is proved and valid, I’ll not only repeat my offer to pay his way for him to pick up his Pulitzer Prize — I’ll physically carry him there myself. There could very well be facts — even important facts — hiding in there somewhere.

But to turn on a dime and write that a document is real, and hard evidence of a crime, and then come back and admit that it’s fake, but still hard evidence of a crime, is an intellectual leap of faith worthy of Evel Knievel. It violates every precept of good journalism, to say nothing of good investigation. I won’t even ask about logic.

Shoot e-mail to KOlbermann@msnbc.com

They have to say that - its not derpessing at all - its part of the game - as ythe recount goes - on and the vote tally gets closer - and Kerry pulls ahead as spoiled ballots are counted for Kerry - then the sentiments will change - but Kerry can not make it seem like he sees an opportunity for victory at this early stage...

Excuse me, I gotta barf! -- law

Maybe this is harsh, but I kind of feel like an underage victim of rape whose parents decided not to press charges.

It may be for the best to keep appeareances, but what about JUSTICE ?


I've said it before:

Conceding in less than 24 hours was a disservice to us Dems and the Country. Particularly after 2000 and Diebold.

By conceding he ended any serious reporting on the story in the MSM. once the story ended, most people accepted the bush victory and moved on. He needed to contest to have any chance of exposing fraud, getting reform or overturning the bush victory. That's it. You can't play it safe and be a fighter. Maybe it would be embarrassing, awkward whatever. But what's the alternative? We don't have a democracy any more. He needed to fight for what I believe we won and not just give it away.
by by moon in the house of moe

Just like they did in 2000...

On the virtues of denying DEMOCRACY WAS RAPED on Nov 2nd...

In the movie/ book The General's Daughter the author describes the life and death - a murder mystery - of Ann Campbell, who went completely off center after her father and her superiors at West Point told her to forget she was rapped by 5 other cadets in the school

Ah the impatience of youth.... ;0

As an oldster, I see all these developments as solid...all going in the correct direction...with the overriding cause not merely one election, but the total discrediting of this admin and all it's minions...

Which is more effective for the nation immediately and far into the future? Flailing about over one state, one election or developing a solid, unrefutable case of repeated fraud to discredit an entire group of political whores?

Id much rather Kerry step aside personally and focus the attention on just how bad this admin has been from the very beginning than win one election and have the continued questioning of the far right about how credible a Kerry admin would be...

Without a supportive congress, investigators have to take the back door in....patience grasshopper...if we keep pressing, the truth will be revealed and the results will be far longer lasting....

Just a thought...