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xyzse
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03...ref=mpstoryview
QUOTE
Analysis: Al-Sadr in trouble, Iraq headed for meltdown

CNN) -- The fighting among Shiite militias and government troops in Basra is a glimpse of Iraq's future, and pivotal cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is in deep trouble, according to two CNN correspondents and a CNN military analyst.

The fiery religious leader has a loyal following in Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood and other enclaves thanks to generous social programs, but his political movement, his Mehdi Army militia and the cease-fire al-Sadr recently extended are no match for Iranian intrigue, according to CNN's experts.

"Al-Sadr is involved in a very complicated relationship with the Iranians," said CNN Baghdad correspondent Michael Ware. "The Iranians do provide funding and support for his militia, yet at the same time they're trying to rein him in and get him to adopt a certain political agenda, which from time to time he resists."

Ware said Iran wants to use al-Sadr's populist base to advance its agenda in Iraq. "However, they don't want to see him get too big for his boots or to rise to a position where they can no longer have sway over him."

Iran has weakened al-Sadr by encouraging dissension within his Mehdi Army and backing hardliners -- known as the Special Groups -- who break away and keep up the fight against the U.S. occupation, Ware said.

"Iran's very good at putting pressure on you, forcing you to split, and anything that squeezes out the side, Iran picks up and turns into hardline factions," Ware said. "That's exactly what's happened to Muqtada. He's had purge after purge after purge of belligerent commanders, and they've all been swept up by Iran.

"And now the most lethal attacks on U.S. forces, the most coordinated attacks on U.S. forces, the most daring attacks on U.S. forces in the country are committed by Iranian-backed breakaway elements of Muqtada's militia faction."

The violence in Basra -- which has spread to Shiite areas throughout the country, including Baghdad -- is a kind of fighting Americans are unaccustomed to seeing, said retired Air Force Maj. Gen. Donald Sheppard, CNN's senior military analyst.

"This is intra-Shia. This is not Sunni vs. Shia, this is not civil war, this is not sectarian violence, it's intra-Shia politics for control of the government," he said.

Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki is trying to hold together his political alliance -- an alliance that includes the political wings of the militias he's fighting, Sheppard said.

"If this alliance breaks apart because of the fighting, you've got chaos within the Parliament," Sheppard said.

So far, al-Sadr has resisted the temptation to end the Mehdi Army cease-fire, which, combined with the simultaneous increase in U.S. forces last year, had brought a sharp reduction in violence.

If the truce ends, "the success of the surge is going to be hugely in doubt," said CNN International correspondent Michael Holmes. "I've always said, yes the surge has reduced violence in Baghdad, but you have to put it in context: Why has it reduced the violence, and what else has happened?

"It's a lot like squeezing a balloon, as a general told me: You squeeze it in Baghdad, it pops out elsewhere. Where you've seen a lot of the militiamen go, a lot of the insurgents go, is to the south and mainly to the north, which is why you're seeing a lot of action up in Mosul."

And the Mehdi Army and Badr Brigades -- the principal combatants in the Basra region -- are hardly the only militias at arms in Iraq. Indeed there are dozens, each with its own political, social, religious and military agenda, Ware noted.

"What worries me the most is all of the good work that we've done with the surge, spreading higher levels of security throughout Iraq, the people slowly gaining confidence in their own security forces -- that could all break down," Sheppard said.

"It could all break down because of Basra, it could break down because al-Sadr basically ends the truce and fighting starts all over the country in the Shia areas.

"This is very, very serious and it could all go wrong for the United States as we try to extricate ourselves. It could go wrong in many, many ways and cause everything to come apart there."

But Holmes suggested there's a chance al-Maliki and Iraq will survive this crisis.

"This could be a good test of Nuri al-Maliki and the security forces. They're going to have to stand up at some point; maybe this is a time to see how they do."

Ware doubts the security forces can prevent a meltdown.

"This is a window into the future of Iraq after the American withdrawal," Ware said.

"What many people suggest is that we're looking at a situation that will be akin to Lebanon in the 1980s, with vicious, well-armed militia proxy wars where all the factions are supported by one foreign sponsor or another.

"But this will be Lebanon on steroids."
Not sure if this is up yet.

This is the one part that I was worried about. When Sadr finally stops the cease fire. I wonder how things would turn.

My guess of what would happen. Whomever becomes the president would have to seriously consider leaving. Even McCain. However, he may be the one to be the most willing to do exactly what the military asks.

Still, one thing good about the election is that once Bush is out, we would have a slight reset on the international perception, and perhaps win us more time and allies.

So, the more cynical part of me thinks that whomever the president would be, will pull out, and have Iraq ending up in another dictatorship at some point, possibly under the influence of Iran. I'd hope for better, but just been more cynical lately than not.
NiteOwl
QUOTE(xyzse @ Mar 27 2008, 05:12 PM) *
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03...ref=mpstoryview
Not sure if this is up yet.

This is the one part that I was worried about. When Sadr finally stops the cease fire. I wonder how things would turn.

My guess of what would happen. Whomever becomes the president would have to seriously consider leaving. Even McCain. However, he may be the one to be the most willing to do exactly what the military asks.

Still, one thing good about the election is that once Bush is out, we would have a slight reset on the international perception, and perhaps win us more time and allies.

So, the more cynical part of me thinks that whomever the president would be, will pull out, and have Iraq ending up in another dictatorship at some point, possibly under the influence of Iran. I'd hope for better, but just been more cynical lately than not.



The ignorance of our presence in Iraq and our push for democracy there will be borne out by the reality that Iraq will be unlikely to be able to maintain a stable democracy once we pull out.

The lesson will have been hard learned and very costly... and we can learn it now... or later.

That's why McCain can see us in Iraq for a hundred years. He realizes that we can never leave or Iraq will go back to being Iraq... and if we don't leave we keep the Islamic fundamentalists angered and vengeful for the foreseeable future.

Bush isn't smart enough to realize what an idiot he is... but his dad was.
Marine
Well, the Government of Iraq is taking on the armed militias in order that they either become unarmed political parties or dead. Sounds like to me a real deal.
TammyJo58
If Iraq does have a melt down, this will hurt McCain in the election. He was in favor of the surge and has been reminding people of this over the last week.
Marine
QUOTE(TammyJo58 @ Mar 27 2008, 05:05 PM) *
If Iraq does have a melt down, this will hurt McCain in the election. He was in favor of the surge and has been reminding people of this over the last week.

Except what's happening is precisely what everyone here wished for so long. The Iraqi military and police forces are showing they are ready and sick and tired of Sadr's crap. US troops are standing by if asked for help, so far the Iraqi Army is dealing death to who ever wants to be a trouble maker. I bet Sadr flees to Iran within the next two weeks.
Indianhead
Be careful not to try to spin war as politics.

The war was wrong, but the fight is now.
GW Bush can kiss my Rebel A*S*S, but
Obama wasn't elected to vote on it, and
most others did. Damn them if ya like.

But we are where we are. Now what?

Maybe we start a draft and kick a*s*s
on Iranian backed militias? Or maybe not.

What would T.E. Lawrence do? I'd follow him.
He knew Pillars of Wisdom, he fought there.
lenal


State of surge has morphed into state of siege. And that 750 million$ plus embassy seems to be the bullseye target. Such stupidity to build that there.


Remember the Brits supposedly had Basra "secured" so the majority of them have gone. And now the remainder are just occupying a grandstand seat at their base. What a mess.

AlQueda wherever, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, must be gleeful, they have us pinned down in Iraq, unable to respond to any mischief they want to inflict elsewhere or maybe even here. And pinning the American troops down in Iraq prevents taking out the real leadership, which we have been lied to before, being told 75% of them had already been killed or captured. So to feed the political animals in this war, the Predators do some more mountain bombing without the boots to back them up and make the strikes worthwhile. I tell you, Laura would probably do better as C-I-C.

What enables those thousands and thousands of Iraqisfighting in the Sadr militia to be so battle prepaired while it has taken five years to try to train defensive homegrown troops.....smelly right.

lenal
Marine
QUOTE(lenal @ Mar 27 2008, 09:59 PM) *
State of surge has morphed into state of siege. And that 750 million$ plus embassy seems to be the bullseye target. Such stupidity to build that there.
Remember the Brits supposedly had Basra "secured" so the majority of them have gone. And now the remainder are just occupying a grandstand seat at their base. What a mess.

AlQueda wherever, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, must be gleeful, they have us pinned down in Iraq, unable to respond to any mischief they want to inflict elsewhere or maybe even here. And pinning the American troops down in Iraq prevents taking out the real leadership, which we have been lied to before, being told 75% of them had already been killed or captured. So to feed the political animals in this war, the Predators do some more mountain bombing without the boots to back them up and make the strikes worthwhile. I tell you, Laura would probably do better as C-I-C.

What enables those thousands and thousands of Iraqisfighting in the Sadr militia to be so battle prepaired while it has taken five years to try to train defensive homegrown troops.....smelly right.

lenal

Well, it's real easy for someone to go to fight and die for their cause; you only need to read about the first year or so of America's War between the States to realized giving someone a uniform and a weapon doesn't make a Soldier capable of surviving on a battlefield. Dying for a cause is what happens to untrained troops and that's what Sadr's militias are doing on an overwhelming scale right now.

If the current operation the Iraqi Army is engaged in is successful (by just a couple a months ahead of the general election) Iraq will be pointed to as a resounding success. Surprise, surprise; the democrats blow it again. Why did I ever doubt it?
david sobien
A successful Iraqi army? I would not hold my breath. If they get their ass kicked in Basra, does that mean US soldiers have another battle to fight? That will not go down well with the US voting public.
lenal
QUOTE(Marine @ Mar 27 2008, 08:16 PM) *
Well, it's real easy for someone to go to fight and die for their cause; you only need to read about the first year or so of America's War between the States to realized giving someone a uniform and a weapon doesn't make a Soldier capable of surviving on a battlefield. Dying for a cause is what happens to untrained troops and that's what Sadr's militias are doing on an overwhelming scale right now.

If the current operation the Iraqi Army is engaged in is successful (by just a couple a months ahead of the general election) Iraq will be pointed to as a resounding success. Surprise, surprise; the democrats blow it again. Why did I ever doubt it?



Me? Surprised? H#*@ I'm expecting it. To be ended a couple of months ahead of the general, I mean. There will be as many whoppers told to get us out as were to get us in. Like labeling it a victory, meaning a military one when all the brass agree there is no such animal in a conflict of this nature.


And I resent the implication that I am ignorant about US history, Heck I have a DAR award for scoring the highest in my state on the subject when only an eighth grader. Union uniform of one relative still in the family. You make such foolish assumptions. Family with land grants in areas that later became the states of Pennsylvania and Ohio. More than one historical structure that were early homes of family are visited by thousands..

Go soak your head.



lenal

Marine
QUOTE(lenal @ Mar 27 2008, 11:01 PM) *
Me? Surprised? H#*@ I'm expecting it. To be ended a couple of months ahead of the general, I mean. There will be as many whoppers told to get us out as were to get us in. Like labeling it a victory, meaning a military one when all the brass agree there is no such animal in a conflict of this nature.
And I resent the implication that I am ignorant about US history, Heck I have a DAR award for scoring the highest in my state on the subject when only an eighth grader. Union uniform of one relative still in the family. You make such foolish assumptions. Family with land grants in areas that later became the states of Pennsylvania and Ohio. More than one historical structure that were early homes of family are visited by thousands..

Go soak your head.
lenal

Lenal, I won't respond in kind because Micahel bans people for doing that.

But I will say for months you have harped about the Iraqi Army not shouldering it's load in defense of their own country. Now that they do it you gripe about that.

I'm also afraid if you got a award about US History you have either must a forgot a lot of it or just simply choose to ignore it because it sure doesn't show in your posts.

My family has only been in America since 1732 but my wife's family was here to greet Columbus.
70sliberalism
Watch the PBS special on Iraq. Shows some saying we should get rid of this guy when he has 200 followers and not wait until he has a thousand. This I think was Bremer's thinking (he had one clear thought) but the WH was still in their mode of letting things work themselves out. So we will be fighting them now instead of then..

rla
QUOTE(Marine @ Mar 27 2008, 03:48 PM) *
Well, the Government of Iraq is taking on the armed militias in order that they either become unarmed political parties or dead. Sounds like to me a real deal.

If we can't convert them or buy them, the only thing left is to kill them off. That's the way hegemony
works, and that's our story and we're sticking with it, unless Senator Obama is able to convince us that the goal is to, "change the mindset that got us into this war in first place."
Arneoker
QUOTE(Marine @ Mar 27 2008, 10:06 PM) *
Except what's happening is precisely what everyone here wished for so long. The Iraqi military and police forces are showing they are ready and sick and tired of Sadr's crap. US troops are standing by if asked for help, so far the Iraqi Army is dealing death to who ever wants to be a trouble maker. I bet Sadr flees to Iran within the next two weeks.

This kind of prediction of yours seems on track to be as tiresomely predictable as there will be soon be someone declaring that a U.S. attack on Iran is imminent.

We will see what happens, but I think that Sadr is going to be around for a long time. In fact, I would not be surprised if he becomes the leader of the country in just a few years, maybe on the order of "Supreme Leader" Ayatollah Khamenei in Iran. I am not predicting that, but it seems to be an eminently plausible outcome.

BTW, we are already helping out the Iraqi Army by sending in Strykers. In the short run we will certainly be able to win anything one could call a battle, but with all of the likely collateral damage Sadr's stock with people and anti-American sentiment is only likely to go up.
david sobien
What you guys do not understand is that what we call the Iraqi Government is just another gang in Iraq. They do not represent the Kurds or Sunnis. They are really just a faction of the Shia.
rla
QUOTE(david sobien @ Mar 28 2008, 09:40 AM) *
What you guys do not understand is that what we call the Iraqi Government is just another gang in Iraq. They do not represent the Kurds or Sunnis. They are really just a faction of the Shia.

Yes, I've heard it refered to as our CIA Branch Office.
Marine
QUOTE(rla @ Mar 28 2008, 09:18 AM) *
If we can't convert them or buy them, the only thing left is to kill them off. That's the way hegemony
works, and that's our story and we're sticking with it, unless Senator Obama is able to convince us that the goal is to, "change the mindset that got us into this war in first place."

Well I hope the Iraqi government tells senator Obama to take a flying leap if the alternative he gives the people of Iraq they have to make room for thugs like al Sadr in control.
Arneoker
QUOTE(Marine @ Mar 28 2008, 02:04 PM) *
Well I hope the Iraqi government tells senator Obama to take a flying leap if the alternative he gives the people of Iraq they have to make room for thugs like al Sadr in control.

Are you saying that we have no right to withdraw our troops from Iraq without Iraqi government permission? That is an interesting view of the matter of our national sovreignty!

At some point the factions in Iraq are going to have to work out things between themselves. Unfortunately the government there seems not much more than just another faction, or conglomeration of some of the factions, as opposed to what a government is supposed to be, representative of the whole people.
rla
Letting them kill each other is more moral than helping them kill each other. If we are going to
steal their oil either way, its also more cost effective to let them kill each other.
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