There have been a LOT of posts saying we should move on past the voter fraud issue. I say BALONY.
First and foremost, why should we NOT investigate what could be the biggest scandal in our nation's history? Why should we NOT investigate what could be an attempt to completely overthrow our Democratic process and instill, basically, a form of dictatorship, which may very well be hell-bent on ruling the world?
Why would people insist that we STOP doing such a thing? Interestingly, many of these people are saying that there are no facts to back up our claims -- no proof. THEN WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT? Why are they so worried about our investigating?
As there has been on the news, I've seen repeated posts saying that there is no evidence whatsoever of fraud. I have given two damning pieces of evidence, gleaned solely from pure facts and figures not related to claims of fraud in this precinct or that:
1. From 1986 to 1999, there were only 6 wrong calls in 2200 exit polls. The same methodologies for polling were used in this election. Exit polls are ridiculously accurate. Whenever someone says that exit polls are screwed up, they are either blatanly lying, or they are really stupid. REMEMBER: simply saying something over and over DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, especially when the facts don't back you up. (Gee, I wonder where they got this tactic?)
2. The pundits are claiming that the 2004 exit polls were all screwed up due to overcounting women. I gave one example in Florida proving that overcompensating for women voters could have caused, at most, 10% of the error seen in the exit polls. Therefore these statements are PROVEABLE LIES.
We are seeing a flood of other information indicating strong possibilities of major fraud. Yet I still see A LOT of posts on this forum claiming there is no evidence. What are these people reading (or not reading)? They either have obviously NOT read the posts on this forum, or they are intentionally trying to screw us up. Both indicate major freeping activity.
There are a few honest souls who feel that we really should try to reorganize and try again in 2008. To these people, I have the following two things to say:
1. There is no reason why we can't both reorganize, AND aggressively pursue the voting fraud issue. However, a major problem with some of these posts is gut-wrenching, soul searching analyses of our mistakes as a party this election, running ON THE ASSUMPTION that a significant majority of the US does not like the Democratic platform. In reality, due to the voting fraud, this may simply not be true. We may have made NO MAJOR MISTAKES in this campaign, and to dramatically shift policies away from something that basically worked may be a very big error.
2. 2008 may be too late for our country as a whole -- every man, woman, and child, Democrat OR Republican. Our democracy may be completely lost by then.
If a few months go by and voter fraud is not proven, it may probably be too late to act (although I would still try). If you really want to soul-search and reorganize, there will be PLENTY of time to do it after that... if our democracy still exists.
Full Version: Don't let people tell you we should move on
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Civil Rights and Civil Liberties > Civil Rights and Civil Liberties Archive
Well, I'm totally with you on this issue!
There are a LOT of active threads right now suggesting we give up. Let them know that we will DO NO SUCH THING.
QUOTE(Alishye @ Nov 6 2004, 05:05 PM)
Well, I'm totally with you on this issue!
Me too. Go Mr. Jim, your arguments are getting stronger from your accumulated knowledge of the real issues of what has been discovered and analyzed. Keep pressing.
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 04:09 PM)
There are a LOT of active threads right now suggesting we give up. Let them know that we will DO NO SUCH THING.
NOT A CHANCE HERE! I'm just getting started!
Now, don't just sit there! Write a letter!
E-mail a senator!
Call the media!
Do something, anything, other then complain! ( and no, I don't mean this as an attack, we just need to all do something!)
Move on ???? You bet, I move that George Bush be impeached.
What happened?
It's important to realize that nobody involved with exit polls ever regards them as precision tools. They have many imperfections. The pollsters who work outside the polling stations often have problems with officials who want to limit access to voters. Unless the interviews have sampled the entire day's voters, the results can be demographically and hence politically skewed. Finally, it is of course a poll, not a set of actual recorded votes like those in the precinct samples collected after the polls close. People who know what they're doing do not rely on exit polls to draw conclusions about a close race. They also look at models, voter turnout, and other data, and they consult their guts.
The two men who run the current NEP pool (one of whom is a close friend) have between them half a century of making judgments on whether the margin between the candidates in a particular state exit poll is close enough to declare a winner. They have never in their lives made a mistake in doing so. In 30 years' Election Night experience of my own, I know of only one case in which a network had to retract a call that was based on exit-polling.
And indeed on Tuesday, the network experts used exit polls as they're supposed to. Exit-poll surveys in some 29 states showed margins for George Bush or John Kerry great enough to conclude that the chances the leading candidate losing was essentially zero. On that basis, when the polls closed in those states and before any votes were counted, 16 of them were placed in the president's corner and 13 in the senator's. They tended to be places like Kansas and Rhode Island.
In quite a few of other states, though, the exit polls were less conclusive. That's where the trouble came in.
About 4 p.m., the pool statisticians met with the network reps and gave them a rundown on the exit-poll surveys and indicated which ones might be called when the polls closed (the 29 above) and which ones to be wary about. The networks were advised against drawing any conclusions from the second group and to air none of them. They followed that advice.
But while these figures never got on the air, they did get around. I have a rather long list of Web sites at which you could find early survey figures from the states that the networks agreed not to go near until they had real votes.
On this scoreboard, Kerry has the larger number in all "trifecta" states (Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania) decreed by every certified pundit as the key to victory in '04. In the second tier of battleground states Kerry has the better numbers overall. Shortly after these numbers were public, a friend in Dallas called and offered me heavy odds on Kerry. He owes me a hundred bucks. Thanks, Slate.
As it happens, Kerry did carry Pennsylvania. In Ohio he lost by two points instead of winning by one point.*(5 actually) Far from being wildly off the mark, that variance is about par for the course, or even under par, for a mid-afternoon reading of an exit poll. Indeed, Tuesday's exit-poll numbers were no more off the mark than were those of four, eight, or 12 years ago.
That's why the people who bought and paid for this intelligence kept it to themselves. Bill Wheatley, an NBC executive who understands these things, told the New York Times Wednesday that early afternoon numbers from an exit poll are "junk." Slate and the other Web sites on which these numbers appeared Tuesday afternoon have every right in the world to get them however they can and publish them. But it's hard to pin the blame for the dissemination of these numbers on those who tried so hard to keep them secret.
In one respect the networks do share some guilt. On their own Web sites, as soon as the polls closed, several of them posted the entire questionnaire from the exit poll—including percentages on the horse-race. They did this without regard to whether a winner had been called. Some bloggers concluded that those numbers had the imprimatur of the network experts and passed on to the entire Internet apparent conclusions that the networks had in fact wisely declined to endorse on the air.
But the real problem is not that the exit polls were wrong. They were about as accurate as they usually are. The problem was that in the age of the Internet the exit polls were being seen by thousands of people who didn't know how to read them. Like any sophisticated weapon, they are dangerous in the hands of the untrained.
It's important to realize that nobody involved with exit polls ever regards them as precision tools. They have many imperfections. The pollsters who work outside the polling stations often have problems with officials who want to limit access to voters. Unless the interviews have sampled the entire day's voters, the results can be demographically and hence politically skewed. Finally, it is of course a poll, not a set of actual recorded votes like those in the precinct samples collected after the polls close. People who know what they're doing do not rely on exit polls to draw conclusions about a close race. They also look at models, voter turnout, and other data, and they consult their guts.
The two men who run the current NEP pool (one of whom is a close friend) have between them half a century of making judgments on whether the margin between the candidates in a particular state exit poll is close enough to declare a winner. They have never in their lives made a mistake in doing so. In 30 years' Election Night experience of my own, I know of only one case in which a network had to retract a call that was based on exit-polling.
And indeed on Tuesday, the network experts used exit polls as they're supposed to. Exit-poll surveys in some 29 states showed margins for George Bush or John Kerry great enough to conclude that the chances the leading candidate losing was essentially zero. On that basis, when the polls closed in those states and before any votes were counted, 16 of them were placed in the president's corner and 13 in the senator's. They tended to be places like Kansas and Rhode Island.
In quite a few of other states, though, the exit polls were less conclusive. That's where the trouble came in.
About 4 p.m., the pool statisticians met with the network reps and gave them a rundown on the exit-poll surveys and indicated which ones might be called when the polls closed (the 29 above) and which ones to be wary about. The networks were advised against drawing any conclusions from the second group and to air none of them. They followed that advice.
But while these figures never got on the air, they did get around. I have a rather long list of Web sites at which you could find early survey figures from the states that the networks agreed not to go near until they had real votes.
On this scoreboard, Kerry has the larger number in all "trifecta" states (Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania) decreed by every certified pundit as the key to victory in '04. In the second tier of battleground states Kerry has the better numbers overall. Shortly after these numbers were public, a friend in Dallas called and offered me heavy odds on Kerry. He owes me a hundred bucks. Thanks, Slate.
As it happens, Kerry did carry Pennsylvania. In Ohio he lost by two points instead of winning by one point.*(5 actually) Far from being wildly off the mark, that variance is about par for the course, or even under par, for a mid-afternoon reading of an exit poll. Indeed, Tuesday's exit-poll numbers were no more off the mark than were those of four, eight, or 12 years ago.
That's why the people who bought and paid for this intelligence kept it to themselves. Bill Wheatley, an NBC executive who understands these things, told the New York Times Wednesday that early afternoon numbers from an exit poll are "junk." Slate and the other Web sites on which these numbers appeared Tuesday afternoon have every right in the world to get them however they can and publish them. But it's hard to pin the blame for the dissemination of these numbers on those who tried so hard to keep them secret.
In one respect the networks do share some guilt. On their own Web sites, as soon as the polls closed, several of them posted the entire questionnaire from the exit poll—including percentages on the horse-race. They did this without regard to whether a winner had been called. Some bloggers concluded that those numbers had the imprimatur of the network experts and passed on to the entire Internet apparent conclusions that the networks had in fact wisely declined to endorse on the air.
But the real problem is not that the exit polls were wrong. They were about as accurate as they usually are. The problem was that in the age of the Internet the exit polls were being seen by thousands of people who didn't know how to read them. Like any sophisticated weapon, they are dangerous in the hands of the untrained.
Smitty -- you are the number one freeper on this site. Congratulations. You were a major freeper on the original John Kerry site. You were too stupid to change your name, and I remember you well.
GO AWAY.
GO AWAY.
no problem, Mr. Jim.....a few words aren't going to change my intent and what I believe is a reasonable inquiry. If you're investigating a crime you don't stop the investigation because you don't have certainty yet. That is the whole point of investigating.....and as we all know even cold case files can be solved.
I was feeling very sad and wounded. Now I am getting back up to speed, ready to go forward to fight for John Kerry any way I can - if we can.
QUOTE(Alishye @ Nov 6 2004, 06:05 PM)
Well, I'm totally with you on this issue!
Me too!! Quite frankly, I can't see what it hurts, the money for the investigation isn't coming from the government, it's coming from us every day folks that want to KNOW that our votes have been counted.
So it takes a month or more -- what is a month when the sanctity of our elections are in question?
QUOTE(weeza @ Nov 6 2004, 05:12 PM)
NOT A CHANCE HERE! I'm just getting started!
Now, don't just sit there! Write a letter!
E-mail a senator!
Call the media!
Do something, anything, other then complain! ( and no, I don't mean this as an attack, we just need to all do something!)
Now, don't just sit there! Write a letter!
E-mail a senator!
Call the media!
Do something, anything, other then complain! ( and no, I don't mean this as an attack, we just need to all do something!)
Amen! Have done my bit for today. Will do more tomorrow.
"moveon.org" needs a name change... How about "Let's-back-up-a-little-here.org!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
smitty = pepperoni
QUOTE(International Rescue @ Nov 6 2004, 05:22 PM)
Amen! Have done my bit for today. Will do more tomorrow.
"moveon.org" needs a name change... How about "Let's-back-up-a-little-here.org!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"moveon.org" needs a name change... How about "Let's-back-up-a-little-here.org!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the old adage still applies: Question Authority!
QUOTE
If you're investigating a crime you don't stop the investigation because you don't have certainty yet.
Right now, a number of people are looking into this to see if a crime has been commited. Nobody is investigating a crime because it hasn't been determined yet if one has occured or not.
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 05:15 PM)
Smitty -- you are the number one freeper on this site. Congratulations. You were a major freeper on the original John Kerry site. You were too stupid to change your name, and I remember you well.
GO AWAY.
GO AWAY.
Wow - you are just too smart MrJim - couldn't fool you!! Now get back to your posting, and remember...keep it civil!
QUOTE(BG @ still a Kerry supporter,Nov 6 2004, 05:23 PM)
smitty = pepperoni
thought it was "salami"???
QUOTE(smitty @ Nov 6 2004, 05:26 PM)
thought it was "salami"???
whatever it is, you are it
don't waste your time here. we are too well informed and can see through a gop talking point from a mile away...
:mellow:although i agree wholeheartedly with your spirit, you do a diservice to your argument when you use inductive logic and claim that it is proof.When you come up with 'proof', i will follow your lead, but in the meantime, it only takes away time, and energy that could be better used elsewhere.But keep thinking, your efforts might one day mine gold. :D QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 04:04 PM)
There have been a LOT of posts saying we should move on past the voter fraud issue. I say BALONY.
First and foremost, why should we NOT investigate what could be the biggest scandal in our nation's history? Why should we NOT investigate what could be an attempt to completely overthrow our Democratic process and instill, basically, a form of dictatorship, which may very well be hell-bent on ruling the world?
Why would people insist that we STOP doing such a thing? Interestingly, many of these people are saying that there are no facts to back up our claims -- no proof. THEN WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT? Why are they so worried about our investigating?
As there has been on the news, I've seen repeated posts saying that there is no evidence whatsoever of fraud. I have given two damning pieces of evidence, gleaned solely from pure facts and figures not related to claims of fraud in this precinct or that:
1. From 1986 to 1999, there were only 6 wrong calls in 2200 exit polls. The same methodologies for polling were used in this election. Exit polls are ridiculously accurate. Whenever someone says that exit polls are screwed up, they are either blatanly lying, or they are really stupid. REMEMBER: simply saying something over and over DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, especially when the facts don't back you up. (Gee, I wonder where they got this tactic?)
2. The pundits are claiming that the 2004 exit polls were all screwed up due to overcounting women. I gave one example in Florida proving that overcompensating for women voters could have caused, at most, 10% of the error seen in the exit polls. Therefore these statements are PROVEABLE LIES.
We are seeing a flood of other information indicating strong possibilities of major fraud. Yet I still see A LOT of posts on this forum claiming there is no evidence. What are these people reading (or not reading)? They either have obviously NOT read the posts on this forum, or they are intentionally trying to screw us up. Both indicate major freeping activity.
There are a few honest souls who feel that we really should try to reorganize and try again in 2008. To these people, I have the following two things to say:
1. There is no reason why we can't both reorganize, AND aggressively pursue the voting fraud issue. However, a major problem with some of these posts is gut-wrenching, soul searching analyses of our mistakes as a party this election, running ON THE ASSUMPTION that a significant majority of the US does not like the Democratic platform. In reality, due to the voting fraud, this may simply not be true. We may have made NO MAJOR MISTAKES in this campaign, and to dramatically shift policies away from something that basically worked may be a very big error.
2. 2008 may be too late for our country as a whole -- every man, woman, and child, Democrat OR Republican. Our democracy may be completely lost by then.
If a few months go by and voter fraud is not proven, it may probably be too late to act (although I would still try). If you really want to soul-search and reorganize, there will be PLENTY of time to do it after that... if our democracy still exists.
First and foremost, why should we NOT investigate what could be the biggest scandal in our nation's history? Why should we NOT investigate what could be an attempt to completely overthrow our Democratic process and instill, basically, a form of dictatorship, which may very well be hell-bent on ruling the world?
Why would people insist that we STOP doing such a thing? Interestingly, many of these people are saying that there are no facts to back up our claims -- no proof. THEN WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT? Why are they so worried about our investigating?
As there has been on the news, I've seen repeated posts saying that there is no evidence whatsoever of fraud. I have given two damning pieces of evidence, gleaned solely from pure facts and figures not related to claims of fraud in this precinct or that:
1. From 1986 to 1999, there were only 6 wrong calls in 2200 exit polls. The same methodologies for polling were used in this election. Exit polls are ridiculously accurate. Whenever someone says that exit polls are screwed up, they are either blatanly lying, or they are really stupid. REMEMBER: simply saying something over and over DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, especially when the facts don't back you up. (Gee, I wonder where they got this tactic?)
2. The pundits are claiming that the 2004 exit polls were all screwed up due to overcounting women. I gave one example in Florida proving that overcompensating for women voters could have caused, at most, 10% of the error seen in the exit polls. Therefore these statements are PROVEABLE LIES.
We are seeing a flood of other information indicating strong possibilities of major fraud. Yet I still see A LOT of posts on this forum claiming there is no evidence. What are these people reading (or not reading)? They either have obviously NOT read the posts on this forum, or they are intentionally trying to screw us up. Both indicate major freeping activity.
There are a few honest souls who feel that we really should try to reorganize and try again in 2008. To these people, I have the following two things to say:
1. There is no reason why we can't both reorganize, AND aggressively pursue the voting fraud issue. However, a major problem with some of these posts is gut-wrenching, soul searching analyses of our mistakes as a party this election, running ON THE ASSUMPTION that a significant majority of the US does not like the Democratic platform. In reality, due to the voting fraud, this may simply not be true. We may have made NO MAJOR MISTAKES in this campaign, and to dramatically shift policies away from something that basically worked may be a very big error.
2. 2008 may be too late for our country as a whole -- every man, woman, and child, Democrat OR Republican. Our democracy may be completely lost by then.
If a few months go by and voter fraud is not proven, it may probably be too late to act (although I would still try). If you really want to soul-search and reorganize, there will be PLENTY of time to do it after that... if our democracy still exists.
QUOTE(BG @ still a Kerry supporter,Nov 6 2004, 05:28 PM)
whatever it is, you are it
don't waste your time here. we are too well informed and can see through a gop talking point from a mile away...
don't waste your time here. we are too well informed and can see through a gop talking point from a mile away...
Not trying to fool you - and really not much of a waste of time either - it was always interesting to see what other people have to say, what their opinions are. Easier this side of the election I must say - but 4 more years of this stuff, with the last 1.5 hearing about how wonderful Hillary is, may get to be a bit too much. For now?...interesting to see things that just aren't available on other sources - voter fraud, which is serious, is a great example! Keep up the good work - it made a big difference for Kerry! (though not big enough). I do realize I tend to be more civil then alot of you, but that is OK - I can take it!
(and remember - stick to facts - don't let your hatred cloud your judgement!)
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 06:15 PM)
Smitty -- you are the number one freeper on this site. Congratulations. You were a major freeper on the original John Kerry site. You were too stupid to change your name, and I remember you well.
GO AWAY.
GO AWAY.
Just click the report button Mr. Jim. Maybe the Mods will kick him out if he is a freeper.
I so agree with you! That would be quitting and admitting defeat, as well as letting dishonest people get away with it. Each thing we do makes it more difficult for them to get away with it next time. In my opinion we need to keep the pressure on.
I grow tired of people who try to shame, guilt, or whatever?, you into giving up when you know you have been wronged. At some point along the way it is like they make you the bad guy for trying to bring in the crook, and the crook goes free.
"There have been a LOT of posts saying we should move on past the voter fraud issue. I say BALONY."
I grow tired of people who try to shame, guilt, or whatever?, you into giving up when you know you have been wronged. At some point along the way it is like they make you the bad guy for trying to bring in the crook, and the crook goes free.
"There have been a LOT of posts saying we should move on past the voter fraud issue. I say BALONY."
There is a level of denial, almost like the old family complicity that nothing is wrong when something is very, very wrong. Like it is too scary to see. Even Bill Maher seemed to want to shut Susan Sarandon up when she kept saying "VOTER FRAUD" when he wanted to talk about the future, about how we failed. Either he has some interest to protect, or more likely, he just didn't fully see what happened.
That Rove is a very clever guy. He orchestrated it so that we were all geared up to expect obstruction, so when none materialized we were left accepting the results as fair. He coordinated the spin, so all this talk about values, the young and blacks and women not coming out, etc., demoralized us. He took a piece out of our souls. We were left not knowing what hit us. We had such hope! They expected to crush us completely with this. Take the life out of the movement. Kind of like what happened in the 1960's after King and the Kennedys were done away with.
That bullshit about explaining why Kerry lost because 23 percent voted based on values...what about the 24 percent who think there is something fishy about the election results?
Plus, we all had the wind knocked out of us and were in shock. A common reaction to this kind of stealing of the soul -- which is what it was, stealing the heart and soul of our nation -- is to shrink to a place where you can't recognize it. We need to help each other to accept the truth that this has happened. And then use everything in our power to bring the truth forward and let it prevail. This is the fight of our lives, make no mistake.
Even Dan Rather and the guy from 60 Minutes, on election night when Blackwood sent over the number of provisional ballots, which were just the right amount, all of a sudden (dropped from over 250,000 to 140,000) to not be enough to get Kerry over the top, they were almost in tears--Rather didn't want to accept it, but he knew he had to. He was almost speechless...."You mean Karl Rove....."
The same with Peter Jennings. He was defiantly challenging the head Republican, saying, can't you at least wait until morning to declare this so-called victory? I thought watching it that he and Tom Brokaw, even though NBC had declared earlier for Ohio, were the ones who kept them from going for it right then and there, in the middle of the night while we were "sleeping". He kept insisting there was no victory in Ohio to be declared. But then what? Get crucified like Rather? We can't blame them. They hate this as much as we do. Perhaps even more.
But there is tremendous resistance to be overcome. This is a taboo subject. It is about soul stealing. There is nothing more threatening than that. It is like we have all been raped, violated at the core. We don't have time to cry over it now. It's like fight now (and very smartly) or we'll get much worse. The world is waiting to see what we do.
That Rove is a very clever guy. He orchestrated it so that we were all geared up to expect obstruction, so when none materialized we were left accepting the results as fair. He coordinated the spin, so all this talk about values, the young and blacks and women not coming out, etc., demoralized us. He took a piece out of our souls. We were left not knowing what hit us. We had such hope! They expected to crush us completely with this. Take the life out of the movement. Kind of like what happened in the 1960's after King and the Kennedys were done away with.
That bullshit about explaining why Kerry lost because 23 percent voted based on values...what about the 24 percent who think there is something fishy about the election results?
Plus, we all had the wind knocked out of us and were in shock. A common reaction to this kind of stealing of the soul -- which is what it was, stealing the heart and soul of our nation -- is to shrink to a place where you can't recognize it. We need to help each other to accept the truth that this has happened. And then use everything in our power to bring the truth forward and let it prevail. This is the fight of our lives, make no mistake.
Even Dan Rather and the guy from 60 Minutes, on election night when Blackwood sent over the number of provisional ballots, which were just the right amount, all of a sudden (dropped from over 250,000 to 140,000) to not be enough to get Kerry over the top, they were almost in tears--Rather didn't want to accept it, but he knew he had to. He was almost speechless...."You mean Karl Rove....."
The same with Peter Jennings. He was defiantly challenging the head Republican, saying, can't you at least wait until morning to declare this so-called victory? I thought watching it that he and Tom Brokaw, even though NBC had declared earlier for Ohio, were the ones who kept them from going for it right then and there, in the middle of the night while we were "sleeping". He kept insisting there was no victory in Ohio to be declared. But then what? Get crucified like Rather? We can't blame them. They hate this as much as we do. Perhaps even more.
But there is tremendous resistance to be overcome. This is a taboo subject. It is about soul stealing. There is nothing more threatening than that. It is like we have all been raped, violated at the core. We don't have time to cry over it now. It's like fight now (and very smartly) or we'll get much worse. The world is waiting to see what we do.
There was a lot of stuff in Smitty's post that I started to counter point-by-point, but I soon realized it would take an hour or longer.
So, I would just like to bring up one point. A lot of Smitty's post seems to be indicating that it was the early afternoon exit polls that were misleading, and that later exit polls, taken all the way to when the polls closed, would be more accurate.
So -- do we have those figures? The final exit polls? Because if we do, and they were still largely for Kerry, it would blow Smitty and his arguments out of the water.
But there is another issue here to. Smitty admitted he is a Republican (or on the other side, whatever that means), who cruises to our site to counter our posts. Now, how do we draw the line between someone who argues with us fair and square, and someone who knowingly and intentionally posts misleading information?
So, I would just like to bring up one point. A lot of Smitty's post seems to be indicating that it was the early afternoon exit polls that were misleading, and that later exit polls, taken all the way to when the polls closed, would be more accurate.
So -- do we have those figures? The final exit polls? Because if we do, and they were still largely for Kerry, it would blow Smitty and his arguments out of the water.
But there is another issue here to. Smitty admitted he is a Republican (or on the other side, whatever that means), who cruises to our site to counter our posts. Now, how do we draw the line between someone who argues with us fair and square, and someone who knowingly and intentionally posts misleading information?
Today on C-SPAN, I watched some people speak from the NAACP....I knew there was voter fraud all over, but from they were saying, it was a lot worse than we heard about...the NAACP has filed thousands of suits...many people were contacted and told they could vote over the phone...many did not ever receive their ballots.......I have posted about this in many of my posts, and I wil say again...This predisent is so arrogant , thinking he has a mandate...he is very dangerous.....with the new patriot act that will be put into action soon, there is a possibility posting on forums like this will be against the law..and speaking out againts this administration may be against the law........while we still have freedom of speech to speak out and do something about the voter fraud, and the inept man who is so arrogantly running this country, be had better take advantage of the time we have..it is very valuable, and we may be sorry if we dont do something very soon, we may not be able to in the near future, and then we will all look back and say why didnt we do something while we could.
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 05:04 PM)
There have been a LOT of posts saying we should move on past the voter fraud issue. I say BALONY.
First and foremost, why should we NOT investigate what could be the biggest scandal in our nation's history? Why should we NOT investigate what could be an attempt to completely overthrow our Democratic process and instill, basically, a form of dictatorship, which may very well be hell-bent on ruling the world?
Why would people insist that we STOP doing such a thing? Interestingly, many of these people are saying that there are no facts to back up our claims -- no proof. THEN WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT? Why are they so worried about our investigating?
As there has been on the news, I've seen repeated posts saying that there is no evidence whatsoever of fraud. I have given two damning pieces of evidence, gleaned solely from pure facts and figures not related to claims of fraud in this precinct or that:
1. From 1986 to 1999, there were only 6 wrong calls in 2200 exit polls. The same methodologies for polling were used in this election. Exit polls are ridiculously accurate. Whenever someone says that exit polls are screwed up, they are either blatanly lying, or they are really stupid. REMEMBER: simply saying something over and over DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, especially when the facts don't back you up. (Gee, I wonder where they got this tactic?)
2. The pundits are claiming that the 2004 exit polls were all screwed up due to overcounting women. I gave one example in Florida proving that overcompensating for women voters could have caused, at most, 10% of the error seen in the exit polls. Therefore these statements are PROVEABLE LIES.
We are seeing a flood of other information indicating strong possibilities of major fraud. Yet I still see A LOT of posts on this forum claiming there is no evidence. What are these people reading (or not reading)? They either have obviously NOT read the posts on this forum, or they are intentionally trying to screw us up. Both indicate major freeping activity.
There are a few honest souls who feel that we really should try to reorganize and try again in 2008. To these people, I have the following two things to say:
1. There is no reason why we can't both reorganize, AND aggressively pursue the voting fraud issue. However, a major problem with some of these posts is gut-wrenching, soul searching analyses of our mistakes as a party this election, running ON THE ASSUMPTION that a significant majority of the US does not like the Democratic platform. In reality, due to the voting fraud, this may simply not be true. We may have made NO MAJOR MISTAKES in this campaign, and to dramatically shift policies away from something that basically worked may be a very big error.
2. 2008 may be too late for our country as a whole -- every man, woman, and child, Democrat OR Republican. Our democracy may be completely lost by then.
If a few months go by and voter fraud is not proven, it may probably be too late to act (although I would still try). If you really want to soul-search and reorganize, there will be PLENTY of time to do it after that... if our democracy still exists.
First and foremost, why should we NOT investigate what could be the biggest scandal in our nation's history? Why should we NOT investigate what could be an attempt to completely overthrow our Democratic process and instill, basically, a form of dictatorship, which may very well be hell-bent on ruling the world?
Why would people insist that we STOP doing such a thing? Interestingly, many of these people are saying that there are no facts to back up our claims -- no proof. THEN WHAT ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT? Why are they so worried about our investigating?
As there has been on the news, I've seen repeated posts saying that there is no evidence whatsoever of fraud. I have given two damning pieces of evidence, gleaned solely from pure facts and figures not related to claims of fraud in this precinct or that:
1. From 1986 to 1999, there were only 6 wrong calls in 2200 exit polls. The same methodologies for polling were used in this election. Exit polls are ridiculously accurate. Whenever someone says that exit polls are screwed up, they are either blatanly lying, or they are really stupid. REMEMBER: simply saying something over and over DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, especially when the facts don't back you up. (Gee, I wonder where they got this tactic?)
2. The pundits are claiming that the 2004 exit polls were all screwed up due to overcounting women. I gave one example in Florida proving that overcompensating for women voters could have caused, at most, 10% of the error seen in the exit polls. Therefore these statements are PROVEABLE LIES.
We are seeing a flood of other information indicating strong possibilities of major fraud. Yet I still see A LOT of posts on this forum claiming there is no evidence. What are these people reading (or not reading)? They either have obviously NOT read the posts on this forum, or they are intentionally trying to screw us up. Both indicate major freeping activity.
There are a few honest souls who feel that we really should try to reorganize and try again in 2008. To these people, I have the following two things to say:
1. There is no reason why we can't both reorganize, AND aggressively pursue the voting fraud issue. However, a major problem with some of these posts is gut-wrenching, soul searching analyses of our mistakes as a party this election, running ON THE ASSUMPTION that a significant majority of the US does not like the Democratic platform. In reality, due to the voting fraud, this may simply not be true. We may have made NO MAJOR MISTAKES in this campaign, and to dramatically shift policies away from something that basically worked may be a very big error.
2. 2008 may be too late for our country as a whole -- every man, woman, and child, Democrat OR Republican. Our democracy may be completely lost by then.
If a few months go by and voter fraud is not proven, it may probably be too late to act (although I would still try). If you really want to soul-search and reorganize, there will be PLENTY of time to do it after that... if our democracy still exists.
Damn HolyForest -- you are obviously very very intelligent.
It scares the crap out of me (honestly) that you can pen such a poisonous post in such a gentle manner.
Denial you say? Denial? The Democrats are in major denial! Yes, I agree! And now I am starting to see that Saddam = Bin Laden, Abu Ghirab didn't occur, and there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. You have lifted the veil from my eyes. How could I have been so wrong?
Karl Rove is so smart that he geared us to look for voter fraud, and when none occured, we collapsed. Gee -- why didn't we do that? Why didn't the Democrats run around the country trying to convince everybody that the Democrats would engage in massive voter fraud? That would have been a HUGE boost to our election chances. How did we miss that?
It scares the crap out of me (honestly) that you can pen such a poisonous post in such a gentle manner.
Denial you say? Denial? The Democrats are in major denial! Yes, I agree! And now I am starting to see that Saddam = Bin Laden, Abu Ghirab didn't occur, and there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. You have lifted the veil from my eyes. How could I have been so wrong?
Karl Rove is so smart that he geared us to look for voter fraud, and when none occured, we collapsed. Gee -- why didn't we do that? Why didn't the Democrats run around the country trying to convince everybody that the Democrats would engage in massive voter fraud? That would have been a HUGE boost to our election chances. How did we miss that?
Oh crap -- I misunderstood a post again. HolyForest, I am sorry. I need to get off the forum for a bit and cool off. Damn -- the second time this has happened in two days. Okay -- I'm going for a walk and chill out.
QUOTE
For now?...interesting to see things that just aren't available on other sources - voter fraud, which is serious, is a great example
Well that's decent to say.
To the rest; we don't want to be the sort of knee-jerk twits we say Repugs can be. I tend to agree that the fraud issue is more useful than the exit poll issue. And it would certainly be the most damaging if it is proved true.
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 03:47 PM)
But there is another issue here to. Smitty admitted he is a Republican (or on the other side, whatever that means), who cruises to our site to counter our posts. Now, how do we draw the line between someone who argues with us fair and square, and someone who knowingly and intentionally posts misleading information?
Bullies tend to gather where soul stealing has gone on. Their meanness is about denying that anyone has been violated. It makes them forget their own loss of a soul. They are not worth having any conversation with until they have faced their own pain. Then they are no longer interested in being bullies. For some that level of honesty and humility never happens.
It is a rampant phenomenon in this country for some reason!
And I am not suggesting that those who ask logical questions are bullies. It is easy to tell the difference.
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 03:59 PM)
Oh crap -- I misunderstood a post again. HolyForest, I am sorry. I need to get off the forum for a bit and cool off. Damn -- the second time this has happened in two days. Okay -- I'm going for a walk and chill out.
That is okay! It is an intense time, with good reason!
QUOTE(monicasbigmouth @ Nov 6 2004, 04:29 PM)
:mellow:although i agree wholeheartedly with your spirit, you do a diservice to your argument when you use inductive logic and claim that it is proof.When you come up with 'proof', i will follow your lead, but in the meantime, it only takes away time, and energy that could be better used elsewhere.But keep thinking, your efforts might one day mine gold. :DI am sure they told Bob Woodward to give up as well when he was investigating Watergate.
Are we not the Woodward's of today, small unknown people, in Woodward's case a reporter, who are reasarching into this scandal?
We only have more tools today, we have the internet and thousands, possiblely hundreds of thousands of people who on the Internet who are looking for the truth.
QUOTE(aimiecp @ Nov 6 2004, 03:54 PM)
Today on C-SPAN, I watched some people speak from the NAACP....I knew there was voter fraud all over, but from they were saying, it was a lot worse than we heard about...the NAACP has filed thousands of suits...many people were contacted and told they could vote over the phone...many did not ever receive their ballots.......I have posted about this in many of my posts, and I wil say again...This predisent is so arrogant , thinking he has a mandate...he is very dangerous.....with the new patriot act that will be put into action soon, there is a possibility posting on forums like this will be against the law..and speaking out againts this administration may be against the law........while we still have freedom of speech to speak out and do something about the voter fraud, and the inept man who is so arrogantly running this country, be had better take advantage of the time we have..it is very valuable, and we may be sorry if we dont do something very soon, we may not be able to in the near future, and then we will all look back and say why didnt we do something while we could.
I am afraid this is so right! We have to take this very seriously, and act, even though I don't know what to do except keep talking about it so people realize
the extent of it.
It gives me the creeps when I remember hearing a few days before the election that the IRS was targeting the NAACP for speaking out against Bush (violating a tax code!). Now it makes sense--they expected a backlash from them over the election and wanted to weaken them so they couldn't effectively fight back. Crrrreeeeepyyyy. And people can say that is "conspiracy theory thinking" and I don't care. This is a very scary time, and we had better get it together while we can because we might not get much of a chance.
But then again, we don't want to give into fear! We must get our facts straight.
Voter fraud happened. That's undeniable.
http://web.qx.net/abrock/Election2004ExitP...02_image001.png
http://web.qx.net/abrock/Election2004ExitP...02_image002.png
All that is next is to uncover the precedental scope of how far the fraud went across all the states, because it for sure affected more than 8. All of that information must be brought before the media and judiciaries of the F.B.I....
http://web.qx.net/abrock/Election2004ExitP...02_image001.png
http://web.qx.net/abrock/Election2004ExitP...02_image002.png
All that is next is to uncover the precedental scope of how far the fraud went across all the states, because it for sure affected more than 8. All of that information must be brought before the media and judiciaries of the F.B.I....
QUOTE(MrJim @ Nov 6 2004, 05:47 PM)
There was a lot of stuff in Smitty's post that I started to counter point-by-point, but I soon realized it would take an hour or longer.
So, I would just like to bring up one point. A lot of Smitty's post seems to be indicating that it was the early afternoon exit polls that were misleading, and that later exit polls, taken all the way to when the polls closed, would be more accurate.
So -- do we have those figures? The final exit polls? Because if we do, and they were still largely for Kerry, it would blow Smitty and his arguments out of the water.
But there is another issue here to. Smitty admitted he is a Republican (or on the other side, whatever that means), who cruises to our site to counter our posts. Now, how do we draw the line between someone who argues with us fair and square, and someone who knowingly and intentionally posts misleading information?
So, I would just like to bring up one point. A lot of Smitty's post seems to be indicating that it was the early afternoon exit polls that were misleading, and that later exit polls, taken all the way to when the polls closed, would be more accurate.
So -- do we have those figures? The final exit polls? Because if we do, and they were still largely for Kerry, it would blow Smitty and his arguments out of the water.
But there is another issue here to. Smitty admitted he is a Republican (or on the other side, whatever that means), who cruises to our site to counter our posts. Now, how do we draw the line between someone who argues with us fair and square, and someone who knowingly and intentionally posts misleading information?
Jim,
I would gladly engage in discussions with you - or anyone else for that matter - I do not have a problem with that. Like you, like most - I do not enjoy battling mis-information or lies. I have no problems seeing faults in my thinking, or in those I support, as long as the complaint(s) are based on facts and not lies, exaggerations or 1/2 truths, etc. If the Republicans cheated - then I would be against that VERY strongly- same as if the Democrats did. If there is no good reason for exit polls to be wrong, then I would concure that something else went wrong.
I will not simply just agree with everything Bush says because he is Rep., or disagree with everything Kerry says because he is Dem. I would rather see the facts and make up my own mind anyway! Opinions ARE in place though - but they can always change!
What say ye?
Of course not. If there was fraud it is a threat to our Democracy. We should know this so we can fix the problem and not let it happen again.
B-MAD!!!
Ballot March for American Democracy!!!
B-MAD!!!
So, FRAUD is not comparable to say...ENRON?
That is just INSANE!!!
Any American who does not see the LOGIC and JUSTICE in following this through is either foolish or BRAINDEAD!!!
There is SO much evidence piling up right now from across the Nation and EVERYONE who voted for Kerry-Edwards, and in fact EVERY AMERICAN should be involved in this RECOUNT!!!
Every vote counts (every real vote made by human being and not some algorythm on a Bush Supporter's laptop) and unless you are willing to stand tall and proud and be counted then...get off the PLANET!!!
Apathy serves NO ONE!
Ballot March for American Democracy!!!
B-MAD!!!
So, FRAUD is not comparable to say...ENRON?
That is just INSANE!!!
Any American who does not see the LOGIC and JUSTICE in following this through is either foolish or BRAINDEAD!!!
There is SO much evidence piling up right now from across the Nation and EVERYONE who voted for Kerry-Edwards, and in fact EVERY AMERICAN should be involved in this RECOUNT!!!
Every vote counts (every real vote made by human being and not some algorythm on a Bush Supporter's laptop) and unless you are willing to stand tall and proud and be counted then...get off the PLANET!!!
Apathy serves NO ONE!
Mr. Jim, I'm in total agreement with all you've said. The early excuses for the "failures" of the exit polls I heard were "well, the Democrats voted earlier." Bullshirt, I say, bullshirt.
I've been following elections since my teens and I am old enough to have been around for Vietnam. NEVER before have the exit polls been wrong. Never. There was never a need to make up excuses for them before, because they have always been accurate.
It's not just a matter of John Kerry here. We can completely leave him out of the equation. What we need to do is to continue to pursue this, otherwise we may NEVER have another free election in this country.
Move on? And give up on our Democracy? I don't THINK so.
I've been following elections since my teens and I am old enough to have been around for Vietnam. NEVER before have the exit polls been wrong. Never. There was never a need to make up excuses for them before, because they have always been accurate.
It's not just a matter of John Kerry here. We can completely leave him out of the equation. What we need to do is to continue to pursue this, otherwise we may NEVER have another free election in this country.
Move on? And give up on our Democracy? I don't THINK so.
QUOTE(usatx @ Nov 6 2004, 11:12 PM)
Move on ???? You bet, I move that George Bush be impeached.
Then we get Cheney . . . isn't that who is running the country now?
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