Anyone more than "fresh" to politics knows you must assume that
competition will offer good points to which you must react. Others
who remain uncommitted consider both sides of each issue and
then weigh them in their balance. Understanding that accusations
will come - I offer a place for discussion of issues not colored
by a prior, rock-solid commitment to the Democrat nominee.
For those with that rock-solid commitment, you might learn something
about former Hillary supporters...if you care to. If not...well here's
another place to go nuts...
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/darr...p;dist=hplatest
DARRELL DELAMAIDE'S POLITICAL CAPITAL
Pushing Obama to the left
McCain's move to center means Democrats can't presume anything
By Darrell Delamaide
Last update: 11:19 a.m. EDT June 5, 2008
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- John McCain has not been wasting his time while the Democrats conduct their improv political theater
.
The presumptive Republican nominee -- with presumption somewhat more in his favor than the presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama - continues to stake out the political center on some key issues, pushing his unanointed Democratic rival to the left. In fact, the way things are going, it is Obama, not McCain, who is in danger of losing his bearings and getting boxed into positions that won't appeal to white working class voters and many other constituencies he will need to carry if he wants to win the White House.
Obama, not McCain, may be in danger of getting boxed into positions that won't appeal to many groups he needs to win over.
You remember what issues are. With the focus on the Democratic slugfest, where issues haven't been debated for months, it's been easy to forget. But McCain was there to remind voters of some of them a couple of weeks ago in a major speech on economic policy to the National Restaurant Association on Obama's home turf in Chicago.
McCain's takes on taxes, trade, agricultural subsidies and other core economic issues are pretty mainstream. While these positions don't mark a break with the current administration in the way that McCain's stand on global warming earlier in May did, Obama won't be able to just dismiss them - not even the tax cuts - as continuing Bush's "failed economic policy."
Neither Obama nor anyone else has demonstrated that the Bush tax cuts, or even the yawning deficit they contributed to, are the source of our current economic malaise. In fact, the main source of trouble - the subprime mortgage crisis - can sooner be laid at the feet of the Federal Reserve, both as steward of monetary policy and as chief financial regulator.
Trade and globalization can be directly linked to job losses and the individual hardships they create. In his recent speech, McCain nonetheless comes out foursquare in defense of free trade, pledging to keep NAFTA intact and urging approval of bilateral pacts with Colombia and South Korea. Obama's pronouncements on the trade issue have been ambivalent at best, if not downright duplicitous, as his economic advisers assure free-trade proponents that his campaign rhetoric challenging NAFTA should not be taken seriously.
In short, McCain is making sure that his Democratic opponent will have to go beyond the pandering of the primary campaign on the trade issue. And McCain takes it a step further, citing agricultural subsidies as one of the major obstacles to opening up foreign markets to trade. He complains that subsidies no longer serve the purpose of aiding small farmers, instead simply add to the profit of large agribusinesses or commercial farms. This is particularly inappropriate, McCain goes on to say, as skyrocketing food prices have led to hardship in this country and riots in poor countries around the world.
"It would be hard to find any single bill," McCain said of the legislation authorizing continued subsidies, "that better sums up why so many Americans in both parties are so disappointed in the conduct of their government, and at times so disgusted by it."
So McCain has an issue where he can advocate change in Washington. The senator from Arizona, which doesn't grow too many crops, is willing to take on the senator from Illinois, rich in farmland, on agricultural subsidies.
Obama and the Democrats have been counting on voter disapproval of the Bush administration to hand them the White House this year. Voters did register their anger with Bush by giving the Democrats a majority in both houses of Congress in 2006 and they are sure to reinforce that majority in this election, aided by the defection of numerous Republican incumbents.
But voters may also be looking for a check on a Democratic Congress. The real risk for the Democratic candidate - at the moment, presumably Obama - is that McCain will make a convincing enough case with his moderate, centrist policies that he can provide that brake.
Full Version: In consideration of John McCain
If the GOP had nominated any other candidate, the Dems would win this election in a walk. But McCain is going to be a very tough out.
QUOTE(dggfwtx @ Jun 5 2008, 10:27 AM) 
If the GOP had nominated any other candidate, the Dems would win this election in a walk. But McCain is going to be a very tough out.
Some banter going on between friends - What if McCain chose Sarah Palin for VP? I think they would make quite an interesting team.
QUOTE(Terra @ Jun 5 2008, 12:32 PM)
Some banter going on between friends - What if McCain chose Sarah Palin for VP? I think they would make quite an interesting team.
I don't know that he has any really strong potential female candidates, but selecting a woman would be a very shrewd choice by McCain. But someone with serious conservative bona fides is probably more likely.
QUOTE(dggfwtx @ Jun 5 2008, 12:27 PM)
If the GOP had nominated any other candidate, the Dems would win this election in a walk. But McCain is going to be a very tough out.
The Republican Administration and a few Blue Dog Democrats really fu**ed Obama real bad on this one. The corporate wellfare rolled up in the Aggriculture Bill works against every reform the New Democratic Party needs to push. McCain can draw blood with this because they don't grow much
of anything in Arizona and they can get plethy of cheap food from mexico.
McCain is better than Hillary. That much is true.
McCain should take Condie. Be bold.
Still say McCain/Rudy would be a winner. The same people that don't like McCain don't like Rudy, so there would be no lose, and he could win NY
McCain should take Condie. Be bold.
Still say McCain/Rudy would be a winner. The same people that don't like McCain don't like Rudy, so there would be no lose, and he could win NY
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Jun 5 2008, 12:51 PM)
McCain is better than Hillary. That much is true.
McCain should take Condie. Be bold.
Still say McCain/Rudy would be a winner. The same people that don't like McCain don't like Rudy, so there would be no lose, and he could win NY
McCain should take Condie. Be bold.
Still say McCain/Rudy would be a winner. The same people that don't like McCain don't like Rudy, so there would be no lose, and he could win NY
Condi would be a disastrous choice for McCain. Thankfully, for him, she doesn't appear to be interested. Not only would her race not help against Obama, but she would also tie McCain to the Bush administration, which is most definitely where he does NOT want to be.
Condi, more than any one else I consider a disastrous incompetent, even beyond G. W. Bush.
There is no way in hell I would vote for any one who would consider her in a position of power.
There is no way in hell I would vote for any one who would consider her in a position of power.
QUOTE(Terra @ Jun 5 2008, 12:32 PM)
Some banter going on between friends - What if McCain chose Sarah Palin for VP? I think they would make quite an interesting team.
She might help McCain get elected in a way similar to Dan Quayle----Moderately conservative, attractive, and vacuous:
Sarah Palin
Big Oil might see her as friendly to their agenda - she favors drilling in ANWR
One thing I believe will be used to shift ground on the national security
issue will be a list of Muslim attacks against US interests and/or allies which is making
the rounds on emails as we speak.
The email supports the profiling of Muslims between the ages of 17-40,
but the incidents are those that will probably be put out to remind us
why the McCain campaign thinks it a bad idea to negotiate without
a military presence in the Middle East.
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by Muslim male extremist
between the ages of 17 and 40.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya an d Tanzania were bombed by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one
crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by
the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male
extremists between the of 17 and 40.
12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you
guessed it-- Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
National Security will bloom beyond a time-lined presence in Iraq during
this coming campaign, IMHO.
issue will be a list of Muslim attacks against US interests and/or allies which is making
the rounds on emails as we speak.
The email supports the profiling of Muslims between the ages of 17-40,
but the incidents are those that will probably be put out to remind us
why the McCain campaign thinks it a bad idea to negotiate without
a military presence in the Middle East.
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by Muslim male extremist
between the ages of 17 and 40.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya an d Tanzania were bombed by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one
crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by
the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male
extremists between the of 17 and 40.
12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you
guessed it-- Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
National Security will bloom beyond a time-lined presence in Iraq during
this coming campaign, IMHO.
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 10:54 AM)
Pushing Obama to the left
McCain's move to center means Democrats can't presume anything
By Darrell Delamaide
Last update: 11:19 a.m. EDT June 5, 2008
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- John McCain has not been wasting his time while the Democrats conduct their improv political theater.
The presumptive Republican nominee -- with presumption somewhat more in his favor than the presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama - continues to stake out the political center on some key issues, pushing his unanointed Democratic rival to the left.
McCain's move to center means Democrats can't presume anything
By Darrell Delamaide
Last update: 11:19 a.m. EDT June 5, 2008
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- John McCain has not been wasting his time while the Democrats conduct their improv political theater.
The presumptive Republican nominee -- with presumption somewhat more in his favor than the presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama - continues to stake out the political center on some key issues, pushing his unanointed Democratic rival to the left.
America gets fooled again and again and again, every day, Indianhead ...
I think it was a REPUBLICAN who said "A SUCKER IS BORN EVERY MINUTE" ...
And it was another REPUBLICAN who said "SHEEP ARE FOR SHEARING" ...
And acting upon that, John McCain became part of the KEATING 5, back when ...
Hey, a guy has to eat, ain't it?
And the lobbyists like John ...
When John McCain says "MY FRIENDS", he is not talking to common people without money or power or influence like myself ...
John is talking to HIS people - the lobbyists and the corrupt politicians up here in the State of New York who support him as THEIR candidate ...
And John McCain isn't taking the center here, Indianhead ...
John McCain is on a fast boat to LA-LA LAND as can be seen from this following news article, to wit:
"AP INTERVIEW: McCain criticizes Obama on Iraq, says they should visit war zone together"
By LIZ SIDOTI and BARRY MASSEY, Associated Press
Last updated: 6:52 p.m., Monday, May 26, 2008
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. -- "I am running for the office of commander in chief."
"That is the highest privilege in this country, and it imposes the greatest responsibilities."
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...mp;#entry847670
EXCEPT ...
There is no office of commander in chief in America, at least according to the United States Constitution as I read it ...
And here, to help you out, because I personally think that John McCain is not playing with a full deck of cards here, I am over at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/ which is the Annotations to the U.S. Constitution which I once swore to support, and I am looking at the OATH OF OFFICE for the position that Obama is running for, and here is what it says:
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:
''I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.''
end quotes
You would think that if John McCain were fully lucid, that he would know this as well as I do ...
FOR THAT IS THE JOB OF THE U.S. PRESIDENT, WHAT THAT OATH STATES ...
The present REPUBLICAN incumbent, of course, has made a complete mockery out of that oath, and it may well be that as a fellow REPUBLICAN, John McCain also intends to make a mockery out of it ...
WHICH COMING FROM A REPUBLICAN WOULD NOT AT ALL SURPRISE ME ...
BUT ...
That would assume that he is both lucid and corrupt ...
And I don't believe that he is lucid ...
I think that he is clueless, myself, or he wouldn't be making RIDICULOUS public statements like he did above here, where he says that he is running for "COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF" ...
Section 2 of ARTICLE 2 of the U.S. Constitution states that "The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States ..."
If John McCain was in fact lucid and fully possessed of his senses, he would perhaps say, "I AM RUNNING FOR THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT OF THE USA SO THAT I CAN BE THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF ..."
But he doesn't ...
Those are his words printed above here, not mine ...
I DON'T MAKE THE NEWS, I MERELY REPORT ON IT ...
In the annotations to section 2 of ARTICLE 2 at http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constit...cle02/07.html#2 it is stated as follows with respect to the president of the USA also being the commander-in-chief:
COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF - Development of the Concept
Surprisingly little discussion of the Commander-in-Chief clause is found in the Convention or in the ratifying debates.
From the evidence available, it appears that the Framers vested the duty in the President because experience in the Continental Congress had disclosed the inexpediency of vesting command in a group and because the lesson of English history was that danger lurked in vesting command in a person separate from the responsible political leaders
But the principal concern here is the nature of the power granted by the clause.
The Limited View
The purely military aspects of the Commander- in-Chiefship were those that were originally stressed.
Hamilton said the office ''would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the Military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the confederacy.''
Story wrote in his Commentaries:
"The propriety of admitting the president to be commander in chief, so far as to give orders, and have a general superintendency, was admitted."
"But it was urged, that it would be dangerous to let him command in person, without any restraint, as he might make a bad use of it."
"The consent of both houses of Congress ought, therefore, to be required, before he should take the actual command."
"The answer then given was, that though the president might, there was no necessity that he should, take the command in person; and there was no probability that he would do so, except in extraordinary emergencies, and when he was possessed of superior military talents.''
******
The basis for a broader conception was laid in certain early acts of Congress authorizing the President to employ military force in the execution of the laws.
end quotes
MAKE A BAD USE OF IT .....
Hmmmmmm ...
In that same news article "AP INTERVIEW: McCain criticizes Obama on Iraq, says they should visit war zone together" by LIZ SIDOTI and BARRY MASSEY, Associated Press, last updated: 6:52 p.m., Monday, May 26, 2008, it is stated as follows by John McCain on the REAL BAD USE that his fellow REPUBLICAN George W.(orst commander-in-chief in American history) Bush has made of the office of U.S. president as American commander-in-chief, to wit:
McCain used a speech at the New Mexico Veterans Memorial in Albuquerque to press his case against withdrawing troops from Iraq.
He said they should continue their mission even though he's been made "sick at heart by the many mistakes" the United States made at the outset of the war.
end quotes
MADE "SICK AT HEART" BY THE MANY MISTAKES ...
AND YET ...
All he did was to remain silent while Americans died on a fool's mission in IRAQINAM ...
And John McCain wants to continue the fool's mission as commander-in-chief ...
It's like John McCain thinks that he is going to inherit a train set here, and he'll then be able to make the toy trains run the way he wants to run them ...
Yesterday, I heard John McCain talking about these town hall meetings that he wants to have with Obama, and in his own words, he stated that "maybe they could even travel together" to cut down on expenses ...
He sounded like Johnathen Winters, that weird guy on TV who used to make all those kinds of noises as his "comedy act" ...
He sounded like a pervert to me ....
Maybe he wants to travel with Obama so he can touch his ***-***, or something ...
John McCain has not pushed Obama anywhere, Indianhead ...
Obama is main-stream in the lucidity of his thinking ...
I do not agree with many things that Obama is pushing as a DEMOCRAT ....
But Obama appears to be sane and rational and capable of reasoning ...
McCain on the other hand, seems lost in space ...
If this Darrell Delamaide dude above here thinks that somebody lost in space is in the center of something, well ...
Hey, okay ...
Whatever winds your watch for you, dude ...
But I can't take anything this Darrell Delamaide says seriously after that ...
Maybe he is on CLOUD 9, or something ...
LA-LA LAND with McCain, most likely ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 02:27 PM)
One thing I believe will be used to shift ground on the national security issue will be a list of Muslim attacks against US interests and/or allies which is making the rounds on emails as we speak.
I get that same CRAP, Indianhead ...
The main article is from some alleged CIA mastermind ...
The article starts out with flawed premises, so it can never get back on track ...
And today, there was this news item, to wit:
"Report: Iran, Turkey coordinate Iraq strikes'
5 JUNE 2008
ANKARA, Turkey - A Turkish TV station is quoting a senior military commander as saying that Turkey and Iran have carried out coordinated strikes against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq.
CNN-Turk television reports that Gen. Ilker Basbug has confirmed for the first time that the two countries share intelligence against the rebels.
He said the two countries plan to launch more coordinated operations against the rebel group in the future.
end quotes
The world is turning faster than someone in his dotage like John McCain can grasp ...
And thanks to the REPUBLICANS and their witless commander-in-chief making us look weak and foolish out there on the world stage, America is being marginalized ...
"OOOOH, THE BOOGIE-MAN, THE BOOGIE-MAN!"
"WATCH OUT, IRAN IS THE BOOGIE-MAN, IT'S GOING TO SWALLOW THE WHOLE OF THE USA."
That is John McCain and the REPUBLICANS ...
In the meantime, here is Turkey, an alleged American ally, conducting joint military operations with THE AMERICAN GREATEST ENEMY, Iran, against the Kurds in IRAQINAM, where we are supposed to be "THE BOSS" ...
Does anything strike you as passing strange here, Indianhead?
Just curious ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jun 5 2008, 03:47 PM)
I get that same CRAP, Indianhead ...
The main article is from some alleged CIA mastermind ...
The article starts out with flawed premises, so it can never get back on track ...
And today, there was this news item, to wit:
"Report: Iran, Turkey coordinate Iraq strikes'
5 JUNE 2008
ANKARA, Turkey - A Turkish TV station is quoting a senior military commander as saying that Turkey and Iran have carried out coordinated strikes against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq.
CNN-Turk television reports that Gen. Ilker Basbug has confirmed for the first time that the two countries share intelligence against the rebels.
He said the two countries plan to launch more coordinated operations against the rebel group in the future.
end quotes
The world is turning faster than someone in his dotage like John McCain can grasp ...
And thanks to the REPUBLICANS and their witless commander-in-chief making us look weak and foolish out there on the world stage, America is being marginalized ...
"OOOOH, THE BOOGIE-MAN, THE BOOGIE-MAN!"
"WATCH OUT, IRAN IS THE BOOGIE-MAN, IT'S GOING TO SWALLOW THE WHOLE OF THE USA."
That is John McCain and the REPUBLICANS ...
In the meantime, here is Turkey, an alleged American ally, conducting joint military operations with THE AMERICAN GREATEST ENEMY, Iran, against the Kurds in IRAQINAM, where we are supposed to be "THE BOSS" ...
Does anything strike you as passing strange here, Indianhead?
Just curious ....
And so ...
The main article is from some alleged CIA mastermind ...
The article starts out with flawed premises, so it can never get back on track ...
And today, there was this news item, to wit:
"Report: Iran, Turkey coordinate Iraq strikes'
5 JUNE 2008
ANKARA, Turkey - A Turkish TV station is quoting a senior military commander as saying that Turkey and Iran have carried out coordinated strikes against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq.
CNN-Turk television reports that Gen. Ilker Basbug has confirmed for the first time that the two countries share intelligence against the rebels.
He said the two countries plan to launch more coordinated operations against the rebel group in the future.
end quotes
The world is turning faster than someone in his dotage like John McCain can grasp ...
And thanks to the REPUBLICANS and their witless commander-in-chief making us look weak and foolish out there on the world stage, America is being marginalized ...
"OOOOH, THE BOOGIE-MAN, THE BOOGIE-MAN!"
"WATCH OUT, IRAN IS THE BOOGIE-MAN, IT'S GOING TO SWALLOW THE WHOLE OF THE USA."
That is John McCain and the REPUBLICANS ...
In the meantime, here is Turkey, an alleged American ally, conducting joint military operations with THE AMERICAN GREATEST ENEMY, Iran, against the Kurds in IRAQINAM, where we are supposed to be "THE BOSS" ...
Does anything strike you as passing strange here, Indianhead?
Just curious ....
And so ...
I believe the incidents mentioned in the email I got are correct.
The idea of profiling is offensive, but the issue will be there.
Did they source the news you mention?
(edit add: BTW I like the Kurds and don't trust the Turks)
CNN has also reported the Turkish-Iranian alliance and it comes on the heels of cabinet level meetings and an agreement for Turkey to help develop Iranian natural gas and be partners in a pipeline.
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 02:50 PM)
Did they source the news you mention?
I got this from a West Point grad on the "veteran's grapevine", as I call it ...
Here is the beginning of it:
This is a paper presented several weeks ago by Herb Meyer at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland which was attended by most of the CEO's from all the major international corporations -- a very good summary of today's key trends and an interesting perspective.
Meyer served during the Reagan administration as special assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence and Vice Chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council.
In these positions, he managed production of the U.S. National Intelligence Estimates and other top-secret projections for the President and his national security advisers.
Meyer is widely credited with being the first senior U.S. Government official to forecast the Soviet Union's collapse, for which he later was awarded the U.S. National Intelligence Distinguished Service Medal, the intelligence community's highest honor.
Formerly an associate editor of FORTUNE, he is also the author of several books.
GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE BRIEFING FOR CEO's
by HERBERT MEYER
FOUR MAJOR TRANSFORMATIONS
Currently, there are four major transformations that are shaping political, economic and world events.
These transformations have profound implications for American business leaders and owners, our culture and on our way of life.
1. The War in Iraq
There are three major monotheistic religions in the world: Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
In the 16th century, Judaism and Christianity reconciled with the modern world.
The rabbis, priests and scholars found a way to settle up and pave the way forward.
Religion remained at the center of life, church and state became separate.
Rule of law, idea of economic liberty, individual rights, human Rights-all these are defining point of modern Western civilization.
These concepts started with the Greeks but didn't take off until the 15th and 16th century when Judaism and Christianity found a way to reconcile with the modern world.
When that happened, it unleashed the scientific revolution and the greatest outpouring of art, literature and music the world has ever known.
Islam, which developed in the 7th century, counts millions of Muslims around the world who are normal people.
However, there is a radical streak within Islam.
When the radicals are in charge, Islam attacks Western civilization.
Islam first attacked Western civilization in the 7th century, and later in the 16th and 17th centuries.
By 1683, the Muslims (Turks from the Ottoman Empire) were literally at the gates of Vienna.
It was in Vienna that the climatic battle between Islam and Western civilization took place.
The West won and went forward.
Islam lost and went backward.
Interestingly, the date of that battle was September 11.
Since them, Islam has not found a way to reconcile with the modern world.
YADA YADA YADA YADA YADA .......
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 03:27 PM)
One thing I believe will be used to shift ground on the national security
issue will be a list of Muslim attacks against US interests and/or allies which is making
the rounds on emails as we speak.
The email supports the profiling of Muslims between the ages of 17-40,
but the incidents are those that will probably be put out to remind us
why the McCain campaign thinks it a bad idea to negotiate without
a military presence in the Middle East.
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by Muslim male extremist
between the ages of 17 and 40.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya an d Tanzania were bombed by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one
crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by
the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male
extremists between the of 17 and 40.
12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you
guessed it-- Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
National Security will bloom beyond a time-lined presence in Iraq during
this coming campaign, IMHO.
issue will be a list of Muslim attacks against US interests and/or allies which is making
the rounds on emails as we speak.
The email supports the profiling of Muslims between the ages of 17-40,
but the incidents are those that will probably be put out to remind us
why the McCain campaign thinks it a bad idea to negotiate without
a military presence in the Middle East.
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by Muslim male extremist
between the ages of 17 and 40.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim male
extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair
by Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
8. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim male extremists
between the ages of 17 and 40.
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya an d Tanzania were bombed by
Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one
crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by
the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim male
extremists between the of 17 and 40.
12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim
male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by-- you
guessed it-- Muslim male extremists between the ages of 17 and 40.
National Security will bloom beyond a time-lined presence in Iraq during
this coming campaign, IMHO.
This is propaganda that demonizes people of a broadly defined ethnicity-----a catalog of reasons to distrust Muslim cultures and evade social responsibility to negotiate with them.
QUOTE(tomhye @ Jun 5 2008, 03:55 PM)
CNN has also reported the Turkish-Iranian alliance and it comes on the heels of cabinet level meetings and an agreement for Turkey to help develop Iranian natural gas and be partners in a pipeline.
I see...dangerous involvements.
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Jun 5 2008, 05:00 PM)
This is propaganda that demonizes people of a broadly defined ethnicity-----a catalog of reasons to distrust Muslim cultures and evade social responsibility to negotiate with them.
Again...generalized profiling is offensive, but specific
profiling is used by law enforcement to solve crime, the FBI has a specialized group;
also, obviously radical Muslims groups pose a great threat to the US and her allies.
Avoidance of either reality is equally naive, IMO.
BTW...when people try to use McCain's age against him it reminds me
Teddy Kennedy is four years older...with a brain tumor, and that Robert Byrd,
whose endorsement was touted, is 90...I guess it's what fits the agenda.
So Swedish grandmothers aren't likely to be suicide bombers or hijackers? Hopefully this doesn't mean I have to end my boycott of Lutefisk!
QUOTE(tomhye @ Jun 5 2008, 05:22 PM)
So Swedish grandmothers aren't likely to be suicide bombers or hijackers? Hopefully this doesn't mean I have to end my boycott of Lutefisk!
The way the airlines are shrinking you might not have a choice!
My partner's son (who flys for Northwest - soon to be Delta)
has worked his way into seniority among pilots of the Saab
(Swedish) turbo-prop group of planes, which are the most fuel efficient...
he's starting to look very smart about now. Yah...ya think?
Well said, Istoodforu ...
I don't like this being programmed to hate people business that seems to be getting jammed down our throats here in America ...
This is the Viet Nam CRAP all over again ...
US v. THEM ...
I am a human being ...
And they are as well ...
As human beings, we are supposed to look for the good in others, not the bad ....
When you fail to look for the good in others, you lose touch with it in yourself ...
And it is OUR society which suffers for that failure ...
No one elses ...
And we are getting marginalized out there in the world because of this ....
And no good will come of it ....
We are getting marginalized for putting our fist in everyone's faces ...
And they are no longer afraid of the fist ...
And we have no other tricks now up our sleeve ...
George W.(orthless) Bush was made to look like a pissant over in Saudi Arabia when he went to beg Abdullah for more oil ...
The president of the alleged GREATEST NATION ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH was a supplicant of a king ...
And he was made to grovel, which he did ...
And then he was turned away like a leper ....
Abdullah probably told him that next year, Abdullah will still be a king ...
Whereas next year ...
George W.(orthless) Bush will be a NOTHING ...
Which is the truth ...
Just one more dime-store cowboy down there in Texas ....
All hat, no cattle ...
And so ...
I don't like this being programmed to hate people business that seems to be getting jammed down our throats here in America ...
This is the Viet Nam CRAP all over again ...
US v. THEM ...
I am a human being ...
And they are as well ...
As human beings, we are supposed to look for the good in others, not the bad ....
When you fail to look for the good in others, you lose touch with it in yourself ...
And it is OUR society which suffers for that failure ...
No one elses ...
And we are getting marginalized out there in the world because of this ....
And no good will come of it ....
We are getting marginalized for putting our fist in everyone's faces ...
And they are no longer afraid of the fist ...
And we have no other tricks now up our sleeve ...
George W.(orthless) Bush was made to look like a pissant over in Saudi Arabia when he went to beg Abdullah for more oil ...
The president of the alleged GREATEST NATION ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH was a supplicant of a king ...
And he was made to grovel, which he did ...
And then he was turned away like a leper ....
Abdullah probably told him that next year, Abdullah will still be a king ...
Whereas next year ...
George W.(orthless) Bush will be a NOTHING ...
Which is the truth ...
Just one more dime-store cowboy down there in Texas ....
All hat, no cattle ...
And so ...
I have just read the last page of Post.
Why are all the top brass in Air Force leaving?
I know their has been a recent history of division because the air force was fighting being boots on the ground soldiers.
Why are all the top brass in Air Force leaving?
I know their has been a recent history of division because the air force was fighting being boots on the ground soldiers.
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 04:19 PM)
BTW...when people try to use McCain's age against him it reminds me Teddy Kennedy is four years older....
Kennedy and Byrd do not seem to be out of touch with reality ...
McCain does ....
And Kennedy and Byrd aren't running for COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, nor is Obama, for that matter ...
McCain is the only one out there running for that non-existent national office in America ...
So it's not McCain's age that concerns me ....
It is his mental condition at his age which does ....
Just wanted to make that clear ....
QUOTE(cutecat @ Jun 5 2008, 04:33 PM)
I have just read the last page of Post.
Why are all the top brass in Air Force leaving?
I know their has been a recent history of division because the air force was fighting being boots on the ground soldiers.
Why are all the top brass in Air Force leaving?
I know their has been a recent history of division because the air force was fighting being boots on the ground soldiers.
Because of incomptence and poor leadership according to Gates on the news this afternoon ...
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 03:29 PM)
The way the airlines are shrinking you might not have a choice!
My partner's son (who flys for Northwest - soon to be Delta)
has worked his way into seniority among pilots of the Saab
(Swedish) turbo-prop group of planes, which are the most fuel efficient...
he's starting to look very smart about now. Yah...ya think?
My partner's son (who flys for Northwest - soon to be Delta)
has worked his way into seniority among pilots of the Saab
(Swedish) turbo-prop group of planes, which are the most fuel efficient...
he's starting to look very smart about now. Yah...ya think?
Airlines are shrinking fast but security goes too far out of its way to prove there's no profiling which ends up abusive to the elderly and children. Saab has always been a great jet company!
Jah,sure! I can deal with wondering if summer will be during a visit to Minnesota in July as long as I don't have to deal with Lutefisk!
[quote name='Indianhead' date='Jun 5 2008, 05:19 PM' post='848048']
Neither profiling nor criminal investigation are the circumstances in which you predicted that this list will be used:
".......the incidents are those that will probably be put out to remind us
why the McCain campaign thinks it a bad idea to negotiate without
a military presence in the Middle East."
Might it be an appropriate response to such campaign rhetoric if we were to point out the differences between propaganda and rational political persuasion?
CODE
Again...[i]generalized[/i] profiling is offensive, but [i]specific[/i]
profiling is used by law enforcement to solve crime, the FBI has a specialized group;
also, obviously radical Muslims groups pose a great threat to the US and her allies.
Avoidance of either reality is equally naive, IMO.
profiling is used by law enforcement to solve crime, the FBI has a specialized group;
also, obviously radical Muslims groups pose a great threat to the US and her allies.
Avoidance of either reality is equally naive, IMO.
Neither profiling nor criminal investigation are the circumstances in which you predicted that this list will be used:
".......the incidents are those that will probably be put out to remind us
why the McCain campaign thinks it a bad idea to negotiate without
a military presence in the Middle East."
Might it be an appropriate response to such campaign rhetoric if we were to point out the differences between propaganda and rational political persuasion?
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Jun 5 2008, 05:49 PM)
Might it be an appropriate response to such campaign rhetoric if we were to point out the differences between propaganda and rational political persuasion?
Certainly propaganda, a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people, is rampant in political campaigns. Like: "A third Bush term". So, what is your "rational political persuasion"?
Well, I worry about either choice we got. Obama out of inexperience or naievtivity letting something go to the point where it causes us great harm; McCain cause of the violent temper and possible mental instability jumping into something without thinking.
I ain't happy with either choice and we're screwed '08.
I ain't happy with either choice and we're screwed '08.
I do not care what anyone says. 72 is too old to be president. That is a tough job for a young man. The ageing shows on younger men who have held that job. If you are old before you start the job, you cannot really take the job conditions.
QUOTE(Marine @ Jun 5 2008, 07:36 PM)
Well, I worry about either choice we got. Obama out of inexperience or naievtivity letting something go to the point where it causes us great harm; McCain cause of the violent temper and possible mental instability jumping into something without thinking.
I ain't happy with either choice and we're screwed '08.
I ain't happy with either choice and we're screwed '08.
I want to wait and see who he chooses for VP (meaning Obama) .. that could be a huge determining factor for many people. I'd just rather sit back and see what transpires over the next few months, keep an open mind and then decide in October.
I'm feeling pretty much apolitical right now - not mad, not happy, not motivated. But, I tend to get like that now and again about a whole lot of things.
QUOTE(Terra @ Jun 5 2008, 10:27 PM)
I want to wait and see who he chooses for VP (meaning Obama) .. that could be a huge determining factor for many people. I'd just rather sit back and see what transpires over the next few months, keep an open mind and then decide in October.
I'm feeling pretty much apolitical right now - not mad, not happy, not motivated. But, I tend to get like that now and again about a whole lot of things.
I'm feeling pretty much apolitical right now - not mad, not happy, not motivated. But, I tend to get like that now and again about a whole lot of things.
Same here. I don't want to feel rushed into any decisions, and may in fact change my mind several times. My current "feel" is probably about 75% Bob Barr, 15% Obama, 5% McCain and 5% no vote. But all the candidates shall have the opportunity to win, or lose, my vote. I may well not make a final call until after the debates in the fall (presuming there are some).
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Jun 5 2008, 03:00 PM)
This is propaganda that demonizes people of a broadly defined ethnicity-----a catalog of reasons to distrust Muslim cultures and evade social responsibility to negotiate with them.
There are whole websites devoted to this crap!
Check this one out:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AboutSite.htm
QUOTE(Terra @ Jun 5 2008, 09:27 PM)
I'm feeling pretty much apolitical right now ....
Nice bike ...
And from the handlbars, it's not a Vespa ...
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jun 5 2008, 07:21 PM)
Certainly propaganda, a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people, is rampant in political campaigns. Like: "A third Bush term". So, what is your "rational political persuasion"?
This definition above includes propaganda along with most other political rhetoric. My usage of the term, 'propaganda' denoted language that promotes hatred and distrust toward a certain group. It might be difficult to agree on a definition that clearly distinguishes "propaganda" from "rational political rhetoric." It's a fuzzy distinction like the distinction between pornography and erotica.
Obama's rhetoric of "A third Bush term" seems rational in that he identifies reasons why McCain's campaign platform appears similar to Bush administration policy (e.g. the war in Iraq and tax policy). Obama's rhetoric gives McCain ample opportunity to identify how a McCain administration would govern differently than the Bush administration.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jun 6 2008, 03:50 AM)
Nice bike ...
And from the handlbars, it's not a Vespa ...
And from the handlbars, it's not a Vespa ...
No Vespa here at all, and thank you. All doing our part to save on gas!
QUOTE(Terra @ Jun 6 2008, 07:03 AM)
No Vespa here at all, and thank you. All doing our part to save on gas!
When people get tired of saving gas by cutting miles will it be a NV-LA run or a LA-NV run? Hammond is close to NO,party there or Vegas?
QUOTE(tomhye @ Jun 6 2008, 07:08 AM)
When people get tired of saving gas by cutting miles will it be a NV-LA run or a LA-NV run? Hammond is close to NO,party there or Vegas?
Good questions - Watch out or we might all end up in your square of desert!
QUOTE(dggfwtx @ Jun 5 2008, 11:41 AM)
I don't know that he has any really strong potential female candidates, but selecting a woman would be a very shrewd choice by McCain. But someone with serious conservative bona fides is probably more likely.
Frankly I think he should choose the former President of Ebay which is part of his campaign..she would provide diversity to the ticket --- she has an economic background which he lacks...and she is from corporate America which is the only real constituency of the Repuiblican party...
He would attract women too...
QUOTE(Terra @ Jun 5 2008, 10:27 PM)
I want to wait and see who he chooses for VP (meaning Obama) .. that could be a huge determining factor for many people. I'd just rather sit back and see what transpires over the next few months, keep an open mind and then decide in October.
I'm feeling pretty much apolitical right now - not mad, not happy, not motivated. But, I tend to get like that now and again about a whole lot of things.
I'm feeling pretty much apolitical right now - not mad, not happy, not motivated. But, I tend to get like that now and again about a whole lot of things.
Well, to me it don't matter a whole lot who either of them choose as a VP.
I guess in McCain's case he could choose an acceptable VP and we could get lucky and McCain could stroke out or have a heart attack. But to vote for McCain on that premise you'd have to count on luck; DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?
Obama's a hopeless case though, he's naieve, he's inexperienced, I got real problems with his past associations and dealings, and I think he's got a hidden agenda. That and he's made so many speaking gaffes he sometimes makes George Bush look like a genius.
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Jun 6 2008, 10:24 AM)
Frankly I think he should choose the former President of Ebay which is part of his campaign..she would provide diversity to the ticket --- she has an economic background which he lacks...and she is from corporate America which is the only real constituency of the Repuiblican party...
He would attract women too...
He would attract women too...
What about Carly Fiona?
QUOTE(Marine @ Jun 6 2008, 08:26 AM)
Well, to me it don't matter a whole lot who either of them choose as a VP.
I guess in McCain's case he could choose an acceptable VP and we could get lucky and McCain could stroke out or have a heart attack. But to vote for McCain on that premise you'd have to count on luck; DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?
Obama's a hopeless case though, he's naieve, he's inexperienced, I got real problems with his past associations and dealings, and I think he's got a hidden agenda. That and he's made so many speaking gaffes he sometimes makes George Bush look like a genius.
I guess in McCain's case he could choose an acceptable VP and we could get lucky and McCain could stroke out or have a heart attack. But to vote for McCain on that premise you'd have to count on luck; DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?
Obama's a hopeless case though, he's naieve, he's inexperienced, I got real problems with his past associations and dealings, and I think he's got a hidden agenda. That and he's made so many speaking gaffes he sometimes makes George Bush look like a genius.
Which past association do you have the worst problem with? Wright or Rezko?
Rezko is a fly on the wall IMHO --- he's nothing...
He was a contributor to his campaign -- a business associate --- Obama was not implicated in any unfair dealings...
Obama's association with him compared to McCain's associations with Lincoln Financial, his abandoning the MIA's, and his ties to big business and lobbyists are more damning IMHO...
His ties to Wright?
He barely attended church...so I do not know what perceived "association" you think he had with Wright other than working with him as a community organizer to stop the spread of aids, promote economic development in Chicago and create housing opportunities...
And remember, Wright is villified for two or three speeches he made out of thousands...
So you discount Wright's military service...
I guess you do not want Obama hanging around with former Vets...
Marine, I think you've been Hannit-ized with your talk of Obama's associations...
Taz, must we always reply to posts of the tiresome variety? Just a question, I have no problems with you making such replies.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jun 6 2008, 08:39 AM)
What about Carly Fiona?
Another good choice...
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Jun 6 2008, 07:40 AM)
Which past association do you have the worst problem with? Wright or Rezko?
Rezko is a fly on the wall IMHO --- he's nothing...
He was a contributor to his campaign -- a business associate --- Obama was not implicated in any unfair dealings...
Obama's association with him compared to McCain's associations with Lincoln Financial, his abandoning the MIA's, and his ties to big business and lobbyists are more damning IMHO...
His ties to Wright?
He barely attended church...so I do not know what perceived "association" you think he had with Wright other than working with him as a community organizer to stop the spread of aids, promote economic development in Chicago and create housing opportunities...
And remember, Wright is villified for two or three speeches he made out of thousands...
So you discount Wright's military service...
I guess you do not want Obama hanging around with former Vets...
Marine, I think you've been Hannit-ized with your talk of Obama's associations...
Rezko is a fly on the wall IMHO --- he's nothing...
He was a contributor to his campaign -- a business associate --- Obama was not implicated in any unfair dealings...
Obama's association with him compared to McCain's associations with Lincoln Financial, his abandoning the MIA's, and his ties to big business and lobbyists are more damning IMHO...
His ties to Wright?
He barely attended church...so I do not know what perceived "association" you think he had with Wright other than working with him as a community organizer to stop the spread of aids, promote economic development in Chicago and create housing opportunities...
And remember, Wright is villified for two or three speeches he made out of thousands...
So you discount Wright's military service...
I guess you do not want Obama hanging around with former Vets...
Marine, I think you've been Hannit-ized with your talk of Obama's associations...
He didn't abandon the MIAs, you're buying BS from Sampley (a violent criminal whose claim to fame is defaming people).
Keating will be more of a problem for him in more ways than people understand yet, REAL problems lurk there.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jun 6 2008, 08:41 AM)
Taz, must we always reply to posts of the tiresome variety? Just a question, I have no problems with you making such replies.
I must.
Sorry.
I think Marine wants to support Obama, but something makes him feel uneasy about it....so I am trying to dispell that uneasiness...
I think Obama's associations are such a minor element...and if that is all that bothers Marine about Obama --- I think if one examines those associations objectively they are not as problematic as one would think...
Heck --- Obama is inexperienced when you look at some of our past presidents.
But he has incredible advisors...like Kennedy's former counsellor and speechwriter Ted Sorensen and Obama's foreign policy is very similar to Kennedy's...
He has shown he is a quick learner.
He has proven he can beat the Clintons at their own game.
He successfully managed a national campaign his first time around including record breaking internet appeal and the best local campaign organization in US history.
He has a background in economic devleopment as a former community organizer.
He is articulate.
And its either him or McCain and we already know Marine is not too high on McCain...
QUOTE(tomhye @ Jun 6 2008, 08:49 AM)
He didn't abandon the MIAs, you're buying BS from Sampley (a violent criminal whose claim to fame is defaming people).
Keating will be more of a problem for him in more ways than people understand yet, REAL problems lurk there.
Keating will be more of a problem for him in more ways than people understand yet, REAL problems lurk there.
Sampley may be the loudest voice, but there are other family members who were abused by McCain in hearings that have spoken against him as well. And despite this, I poted an article that McCain has never had the greatest relationship with vets...
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Jun 6 2008, 10:42 AM)
Another good choice...
Actually I have my doubts on that score, but she certainly has certain strengths. Being a woman who did well in the corporate world is something that would bound to be attractive. On the other hand there is the whole matter of how she was ousted from Hewlet-Packard. And that is bound to get tangled with matters of gender, fair or not (and does seem to be not). Would that matter stimulate more sexism or more feminist sympathy? (Beyond that, the whole incident certainly does seem to raise some legitimate issues.)
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Jun 6 2008, 07:51 AM)
Sampley may be the loudest voice, but there are other family members who were abused by McCain in hearings that have spoken against him as well. And despite this, I poted an article that McCain has never had the greatest relationship with vets...
Doesn't matter, nothing to do with the actual facts, he didn't abandon the MIAs, he helped get more accounted for. Sampley is a parasite who keeps the dream alive (by victimizing family members) that there may still be live MIAs being held, some family members can't accept that their loved ones are dead and lash out in frustration and grief. His problems with some veterans and some MIA families means nothing regarding the actual facts, by the start of the negotiations there were less than a dozen considered possibly alive, by the time it was a high profile effort the number was 4 and by the time of his visit it was 1 and they allowed us to investigate that (bringing it to 0).
QUOTE(tomhye @ Jun 6 2008, 08:58 AM)
Doesn't matter, nothing to do with the actual facts, he didn't abandon the MIAs, he helped get more accounted for. Sampley is a parasite who keeps the dream alive (by victimizing family members) that there may still be live MIAs being held, some family members can't accept that their loved ones are dead and lash out in frustration and grief. His problems with some veterans and some MIA families means nothing regarding the actual facts, by the start of the negotiations there were less than a dozen considered possibly alive, by the time it was a high profile effort the number was 4 and by the time of his visit it was 1 and they allowed us to investigate that (bringing it to 0).
Yes, but that does not discount that John McCain was verbally abusive to the families of many of these people...not does it discount the fact that McCain will likely be attacked by the same group who attacked Kerry.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jun 6 2008, 08:55 AM)
Actually I have my doubts on that score, but she certainly has certain strengths. Being a woman who did well in the corporate world is something that would bound to be attractive. On the other hand there is the whole matter of how she was ousted from Hewlet-Packard. And that is bound to get tangled with matters of gender, fair or not (and does seem to be not). Would that matter stimulate more sexism or more feminist sympathy? (Beyond that, the whole incident certainly does seem to raise some legitimate issues.)
Oh -- she is the one they had on 60 minutes...
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Jun 6 2008, 08:04 AM)
Yes, but that does not discount that John McCain was verbally abusive to the families of many of these people...not does it discount the fact that McCain will likely be attacked by the same group who attacked Kerry.
None of that validates the false charge that he abandoned the MIAs. I got involved at the request of a friend who was one of the volunteers for a rescue mission, I'm not guessing.
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