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Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Foreign Policy and National Defense > Afghanistan and Iraq
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tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 5 2008, 09:55 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 5 2008, 10:23 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 08:32 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 5 2008, 10:15 AM) *
Who knew all we needed was yoga to win in Afghanistan...

I wonder if that would work for the desplazados in Colombia.


Hmm.

Which do you think should be the test case? laugh.gif

Now I know how Obama feels when the Cheap labor Republicans, the Radical Religous Wrong,
All the women that ever got badly $hit on who wanted Hillary to win and certain tee-shirted
working MEN all come after a piece of his a$$ at the same.


And now you know how I feel when Livyjr, Marine, Picadilly, Terra, you and others come after me on various threads as well -- laugh.gif

We do it just to try and lighten the tone, my friend.

As my aunt wisely reminded my cousin who I teased to the point of tears many, many moons ago --- we tease the ones we love...

notworthy.gif
tazvil04
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 5 2008, 08:15 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 4 2008, 03:03 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 1 2008, 10:46 AM) *
rla:

I am still waiting for your proposal of a practical security strategy which would defend the US from terrorists in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

You say we can do no good in Afghanistan, but the politcal reality is that while Bush has been wrong in Iraq, his words -- we either fight them there or we fight them here hold true for Afghanistan as we saw on 9/11.

Now, we certainly need to harden our targets here at home which is still not being done as it should, but are our citizens abroad to be subject to attack -- are our allies?

I know you hate our role as a policeman.

BUt as Arne has repeatedly tried to get you to answer --- does the world need a policeman?

If the answer is no, then what happens when bad actors disrupt the peace?

How are they dealt with?

If you say via the UN - then you are basically turning over our national security to a third party which i would contend is a dangerous scenario since two of our rivals China and Russia have veto power over that body...

So what is your relaistic (not theoretiical) solution


Phase I. Train everyone to RELAX with self-instruction and make explicit How everyone controls
their own customary Stimulation<-->Activation Level from first awakening to going to sleep, from Birth to Death...


Who knew all we needed was yoga to win in Afghanistan...

QUOTE
Phase II. Emphasize Early Childhood Education that is playful, exploratory and purposeful.
Continue Educationalal Experiences in a Multivariate Matrix at Multiple Levels across Multiple Domains, Multiplied by itself to the third Order. Three simultaneous Video Tapes for a three-dimentional Time X Space X Debth-of-understanding Cube, Each Axis through factorial space, representing the three cameras. The Algorithm doing the computation Minimizes the amount of over-lap of the three cameras. What three Axises are most independent of each other and collectivly
provide the best prediction? A Unitary System at a Functional Community Level is required.
Therefore, Integrate your neighborhoods and community so that person-centered and community-
based education and citizenship training produces a cohesive Nation with shared Individual and
collective goals.


I support education...I have posted Kristoff and FRiedman columns in this regard...

I have always supported a comprehensive approach.

QUOTE
Phase III. to be continued...


Anxiously waiting... cool.gif


whistling.gif
tazvil04
I must give props to picadilly (and perhaps rla too) who has been urging a more intelligence based effort against al Qaeda.

I still believe more troops are necessary to help defeat the Taliban, but against al Qaeda I am coming to the conclusion that more troops are not the answer...at least not more troops in Pakistan --- but rather troops in a readiness mode for deployment in concert with the Pakistanis should the opportunity present itself...

QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 11 2008, 02:38 PM) *
Obama will have to pay close attention to studies like this...

In Fighting al Qaeda, Bush's "Global War on Terrorism" Is Off Target
A New Rand Corp. study urges a "fundamental rethinking" of counterterrorism strategy
By Alex Kingsbury
Posted July 30, 2008

A terrorism study prepared for the Defense Department has some bad news for the Bush administration—and presents a sizable challenge for whoever is next in the Oval Office.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/iraq/2...off-target.html

The current strategy for defeating al Qaeda has not been successful in diminishing the group's capabilities and is unlikely to do better without a shift in emphasis, the Rand Corp. study concludes.

Since 2001, al Qaeda has conducted a greater number of attacks across a larger geographic area than at any time in its history. "We find it hard to agree that al Qaeda has been significantly weakened since Sept. 11, 2001," says Seth Jones, coauthor with Martin Libicki of the report titled "How Terrorist Groups End: Lessons for Countering al Qaeda."

The authors evaluate al Qaeda since 2001 as being both "strong" and "competent."

What's needed, the report suggests, is a "fundamental rethinking of U.S. strategy" to focus on minimizing overt military action and increasing intelligence collection and partnerships with law enforcement agencies around the world.

The report couldn't have been clearer in its refutation of one of the central tenants of the Bush administration's strategy against al Qaeda: the characterization of the conflict as a "global war." The administration has frequently attacked critics—especially Democrats—who say that counterterrorism should be built around law enforcement strategies.

But the 200-page Rand study suggests that using the label "global war" skews priorities and sends the wrong political message. "Almost all of our allies, from the Great Britain to Australia, have stopped using the concept of a "global war on terror," Jones told congressional staffers in a briefing on Tuesday, suggesting that "counterterrorism" should become the preferred nomenclature for operations against al Qaeda. "There are simply no battlefield solutions to this problem," he said.

The analysis focuses on a little-studied aspect of what one might call a terrorist group's "life cycle." Examining 648 historical cases of terrorist groups between 1968 and 2006 and their eventual ends, the report concludes that most groups end because they are either incorporated into the political process (43 percent) or are eliminated through police and intelligence services seizing or killing group leaders (40 percent).

"In most cases, military force is too blunt of an instrument and ineffective at ending terrorist groups," says Jones, a well-known Rand expert on Afghanistan who is also an adjunct political science professor at Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service.

For one thing, they point out, a major American military role sets the stage for a backlash. "The U.S. military can play a critical role in building indigenous capacity but should generally resist being drawn into combat operations in Muslim countries, where its presence is likely to increase terrorist recruitment," Jones and Libicki wrote.

While the report's analysis of the history of counterterrorism operations finds that all terror groups eventually fizzle out, it was less optimistic on the prospects for a speedy endgame. Religiously motivated groups like al Qaeda have been particularly tenacious, surviving longer than most groups.

"The most salient fact about religious terrorist groups is how hard they are to eliminate," the study says. They were, however, far less successful in achieving their goals. "All terrorist groups end, but terrorism, like crime, never ends," Jones says.

Since 1968, the scope of the report's database, no religiously motivated terrorist group has achieved victory.

Other findings in the report were surprising, particularly the lack of correlation between the end of a terrorist group and a variety of factors such as its ideological motivation, breadth of goals, economic conditions, or the type of regime under which the group operates.

The report finds, though, that a terrorist group's size does have some relevance. Organizations of more than 10,000, for instance, have been victorious in their struggle more than a quarter of the time, while victory for groups smaller than 1,000 members is exceedingly rare.

In large groups, the end is most likely the result of political integration or outright victory. For smaller groups, police enforcement and political integration are unlikely, while "splintering" is the most common outcome. This becomes a pressing issue when the tactics of the group lead to division. The report observes that "groups whose attacks on civilian targets outnumber attacks on military targets systematically fail to achieve their policy objectives, in part because they fail to communicate their policy objectives well."

rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:11 AM) *
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 5 2008, 02:05 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 4 2008, 03:48 PM) *
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 2 2008, 06:45 AM) *

QUOTE
QUOTE
The USofA, as a state, ***never*** acts in an empathic moment of benevolence, ***never***!

I have said over and over and over again that I agree with you in this regard, BUT that often a side impact of our efforts is to improve the standard of living and environment for the nations we are helping while satisfying our own selfish interests.

When does the use of condoms, a lot of lube, and a lofty amount of cash constitute extenuating or mitigating circumstances ?

Huh?


When we don't get what we want as fast as we want, we just take it, satisfying our own selfish interests. And all our efforts is to improve the standard of living and environment for the nations we are helping do not constitute mitigating circumstances.

The use of condoms, a lot of lube, and a lofty amount of cash DO NOT constitute extenuating or mitigating circumstances when rape is committed.

Understood. Granted we have a problem understanding that NO means NO. We have been too conditioned to believe that NO or YES or no answer at all means that we can still do as we like...

Now, this is all well and good in situations where we have not identified a national security interest as we have in Afghanistan. I think it would be an interesting political science problem to see what would happen if the Afghan government asked us to leave and submitted it to the UN -- would the US leave despite the fact that it believed our national security interests were still in the country? I do not know.


QUOTE
And this is why I believe we need to increase our foreign aid as a % of our GDP in line with what these other nations do so that perhaps we too could advance more humanitarian policy...


My experience in the field is that, these countries can NOT manage more aid than what eventually is shipped to them. What they need is that this aid be not hijacked, grabbed by just a few, or be delivered directly to governments or attached to political conditions. All they need is that the aid they ask be correctly distributed. They don't need stuff they can't use or too much of some stuff that ends being sold by gov workers on markets to allow them to eat and feed their families, because they haven't received any salary in the last 4 or 6 or sometimes 12 months.

One stupid example: In Africa, they can't use inkjet printers, it's too hot or too humid, they can't get ink refills, the paper they can get is the lowest grade available unsuited for ink jet technology, often the paper is stained, was wet and dried 3 or 4 times staying outside because there is no dry covered storage facilities at transport relays, once in the bush, they have no storage rooms or furniture but plastic covers to keep bugs and worms from eating the paper ...

[b]Not a stupid example --- a perfect example to illustrate our stupidity of some of our efforts...

Points well made.


QUOTE
Did you read the article on teh Korengal valley I provided a link for? [/b]

I have read a few articles on the Korengal Valley resistance, among them a series in the NYT.
But I don't recall reading any such article for which you posted a link.
Can you repost the link ?

Actually, the article may have been in the New York Times Magzaine...so you may have read it already --- though I think Vanity Fair had an article as well...

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...currentPage=all

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...slideshow200801

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine...hanistan-t.html

I found these articles good examples of how we adapted our approach to the reality on the ground and realized that we needed to work more closely with the Afghan people if we were going to win the war against the Taliban for Afghan sovereignty. Actually, if the Taliban were smart it would do what Hamas and Hezbollah have done and elected their rerpesentatives to positions of power in teh Afghan government.




Because, associated with US assistance is the internalized US schema to crush indigeonous emergent
leadership. It is the way we prevent progress at home and abroad.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 11 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Because, associated with US assistance is the internalized US schema to crush indigeonous emergent
leadership. It is the way we prevent progress at home and abroad.

The desplazados were driven out of their homes in the countryside because of the violent activities of the local emergent leadership. Specifically how did they benefit from progress?
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 11 2008, 05:13 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:11 AM) *
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 5 2008, 02:05 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 4 2008, 03:48 PM) *
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 2 2008, 06:45 AM) *

QUOTE
QUOTE
The USofA, as a state, ***never*** acts in an empathic moment of benevolence, ***never***!

I have said over and over and over again that I agree with you in this regard, BUT that often a side impact of our efforts is to improve the standard of living and environment for the nations we are helping while satisfying our own selfish interests.

When does the use of condoms, a lot of lube, and a lofty amount of cash constitute extenuating or mitigating circumstances ?

Huh?


When we don't get what we want as fast as we want, we just take it, satisfying our own selfish interests. And all our efforts is to improve the standard of living and environment for the nations we are helping do not constitute mitigating circumstances.

The use of condoms, a lot of lube, and a lofty amount of cash DO NOT constitute extenuating or mitigating circumstances when rape is committed.

Understood. Granted we have a problem understanding that NO means NO. We have been too conditioned to believe that NO or YES or no answer at all means that we can still do as we like...

Now, this is all well and good in situations where we have not identified a national security interest as we have in Afghanistan. I think it would be an interesting political science problem to see what would happen if the Afghan government asked us to leave and submitted it to the UN -- would the US leave despite the fact that it believed our national security interests were still in the country? I do not know.


QUOTE
And this is why I believe we need to increase our foreign aid as a % of our GDP in line with what these other nations do so that perhaps we too could advance more humanitarian policy...


My experience in the field is that, these countries can NOT manage more aid than what eventually is shipped to them. What they need is that this aid be not hijacked, grabbed by just a few, or be delivered directly to governments or attached to political conditions. All they need is that the aid they ask be correctly distributed. They don't need stuff they can't use or too much of some stuff that ends being sold by gov workers on markets to allow them to eat and feed their families, because they haven't received any salary in the last 4 or 6 or sometimes 12 months.

One stupid example: In Africa, they can't use inkjet printers, it's too hot or too humid, they can't get ink refills, the paper they can get is the lowest grade available unsuited for ink jet technology, often the paper is stained, was wet and dried 3 or 4 times staying outside because there is no dry covered storage facilities at transport relays, once in the bush, they have no storage rooms or furniture but plastic covers to keep bugs and worms from eating the paper ...

[b]Not a stupid example --- a perfect example to illustrate our stupidity of some of our efforts...

Points well made.


QUOTE
Did you read the article on teh Korengal valley I provided a link for? [/b]

I have read a few articles on the Korengal Valley resistance, among them a series in the NYT.
But I don't recall reading any such article for which you posted a link.
Can you repost the link ?

Actually, the article may have been in the New York Times Magzaine...so you may have read it already --- though I think Vanity Fair had an article as well...

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...currentPage=all

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...slideshow200801

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine...hanistan-t.html

I found these articles good examples of how we adapted our approach to the reality on the ground and realized that we needed to work more closely with the Afghan people if we were going to win the war against the Taliban for Afghan sovereignty. Actually, if the Taliban were smart it would do what Hamas and Hezbollah have done and elected their rerpesentatives to positions of power in teh Afghan government.




Because, associated with US assistance is the internalized US schema to crush indigeonous emergent
leadership. It is the way we prevent progress at home and abroad.


One cannot honestly discuss foreign policy without acknowledging that the United States in promoting its interests (which often coincide with those of the international community -- often but not always) has not been perfect. But I still believe that there are needs for some military involvement in Afghanistan regarding the Taliban. Now, I have conceded with the RAND report above that direct military engagement of al Qaeda is not the route to go so long as the Pakistanis remain vigilant in their efforts. I have agreed with picadilly that a covert/special forces intelligence approach is the best means to engage and dismantle al Qaeda. However, the Taliban is a distinct group IMHO who continue to terrorize the Afghani government and people. More forces are needed to engage them.

Now, it has been brought up that the Soviet Union with more forces was unable to win in Afghanistan. However, I continue to believe that the Soviets did not have a majority of the Afghani people on their side. I believe that the US does have a majority of the people on their side. The Taliban is a minority in the country. A minority with aspirations of ruling the majority after democracy has been provided to Afghanistan. The majority's interests need to be safeguarded in order to prevent al Qaeda from getting a safe haven in Afghanistan again IMHO.
rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:12 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 4 2008, 03:53 PM) *
The best way for us to help the people of Afganstan, in addition to the recommendations
I have already made is get out out of their face and help them by showing them an example
of Humanitarian, Constitutional, Representative, Democratic, Republic, Open Market Economy,
without its present corruption and incompetence...as a Model for them to work towards and
offer them Consultation and Technical Assistance as well as genuine mutual self-help networks--
on a person to person bases as well as programs like the Sister City Program, that we share with a small city in Japan. We don't need to maintain a Military presence there. In fact, our Military presence there is the worse thing happening from the perspective of the indigeonous persons
living there.


And with all the corruption there how does one do that exactly?

The first steps, a unilateral cease fire and de-criminalize drugs.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 10:25 AM) *
The first steps, a unilateral cease fire and de-criminalize drugs.

You might just be right about decriminalizing drugs. It may be the perfect policy to deal with the...drug problem. But there are other problems involved that decriminalizing drugs well at best have no more than a marginal effect upon.

As far as the unilateral cease fire goes...shouldn't there be at least some prospect that the other side would follow suit?
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 09:31 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 10:25 AM) *
The first steps, a unilateral cease fire and de-criminalize drugs.

You might just be right about decriminalizing drugs. It may be the perfect policy to deal with the...drug problem. But there are other problems involved that decriminalizing drugs well at best have no more than a marginal effect upon.

As far as the unilateral cease fire goes...shouldn't there be at least some prospect that the other side would follow suit?

Not when there are so many different sides.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 10:47 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 09:31 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 10:25 AM) *
The first steps, a unilateral cease fire and de-criminalize drugs.

You might just be right about decriminalizing drugs. It may be the perfect policy to deal with the...drug problem. But there are other problems involved that decriminalizing drugs well at best have no more than a marginal effect upon.

As far as the unilateral cease fire goes...shouldn't there be at least some prospect that the other side would follow suit?

Not when there are so many different sides.

So if they will not follow suit then why call a cease fire? That would seem to make our people, and anyone who hints at supporting the current government, sitting ducks.
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 08:10 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 11 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Because, associated with US assistance is the internalized US schema to crush indigeonous emergent
leadership. It is the way we prevent progress at home and abroad.

The desplazados were driven out of their homes in the countryside because of the violent activities of the local emergent leadership. Specifically how did they benefit from progress?

A more detailed description would be required to determine whether this is an example of an exception to the principle I proposed.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 11:03 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 08:10 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 11 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Because, associated with US assistance is the internalized US schema to crush indigeonous emergent
leadership. It is the way we prevent progress at home and abroad.

The desplazados were driven out of their homes in the countryside because of the violent activities of the local emergent leadership. Specifically how did they benefit from progress?

A more detailed description would be required to determine whether this is an example of an exception to the principle I proposed.

There is a civil war in certain areas of the countryside with the guerillas fighting the government. The government there is hardly perfect, but it is elected, and at least in the cities, under relatively free conditions. (I can pretty well attest to that fact for the Bogota area, I have no reason to think it different in the other cities. Now in the countryside the situation is different, as the locals are intimidated by whatever armed group holds sway.)

The desplazados are those who have fled the countryside to the cities in order to avoid the violence. In Bogota they tend to live in the worst neighborhoods. It really doesn't sound like progress to me.

I appreciate your desire for more information, but does "progress" look all that good, in terms of the desplazados, so far?

And BTW, in what areas is "emergent leadership", at least in the form of armed rebel groups, making things better? I suspect that the places where they are doing so are the real exceptions!
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 10:14 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 11:03 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 08:10 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 11 2008, 07:13 PM) *
Because, associated with US assistance is the internalized US schema to crush indigeonous emergent
leadership. It is the way we prevent progress at home and abroad.

The desplazados were driven out of their homes in the countryside because of the violent activities of the local emergent leadership. Specifically how did they benefit from progress?

A more detailed description would be required to determine whether this is an example of an exception to the principle I proposed.

There is a civil war in certain areas of the countryside with the guerillas fighting the government. The government there is hardly perfect, but it is elected, and at least in the cities, under relatively free conditions. (I can pretty well attest to that fact for the Bogota area, I have no reason to think it different in the other cities. Now in the countryside the situation is different, as the locals are intimidated by whatever armed group holds sway.)

The desplazados are those who have fled the countryside to the cities in order to avoid the violence. In Bogota they tend to live in the worst neighborhoods. It really doesn't sound like progress to me.

I appreciate your desire for more information, but does "progress" look all that good, in terms of the desplazados, so far?

And BTW, in what areas is "emergent leadership", at least in the form of armed rebel groups, making things better? I suspect that the places where they are doing so are the real exceptions!

The concept, "Emergent Leadership" refers to a natural process that occurs in Organizations, Companies, Cities, Nations or any complex aggregate of persons. The concept is related to the concept of Emergent Evolution. I have no idea whether a real analysis of developments In Columbia
would identify the typical armed guerilla band as representative of emergent leadership during the past decade. Emergent leadership is also related the self-organizing properties of complex systems.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 12:48 PM) *
The concept, "Emergent Leadership" refers to a natural process that occurs in Organizations, Companies, Cities, Nations or any complex aggregate of persons. The concept is related to the concept of Emergent Evolution. I have no idea whether a real analysis of developments In Columbia
would identify the typical armed guerilla band as representative of emergent leadership during the past decade. Emergent leadership is also related the self-organizing properties of complex systems.

Well several people I know in Colombia have some pretty definite ideas about the "typical armed guerilla bands" there! My wife's friend who now lives in NJ and whose cousin was hacked to death has some ideas as well. But of course I don't know what kind of "real analysis" they have done, they have only lived there.

BTW, isn't cancer also a natural process?
rla
Arne, I lost my response because the time ran out on my edit. Maybe we get more mileage out of this discussion if you would just say what your objection is to the concept of Emergent Leadership?
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 11:08 AM) *
Arne, I lost my response because the time ran out on my edit. Maybe we get more mileage out of this discussion if you would just say what your objection is to the concept of Emergent Leadership?


Maybe you could define emergent leadership for us and we could all comment on what he think about it...
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 01:08 PM) *
Arne, I lost my response because the time ran out on my edit. Maybe we get more mileage out of this discussion if you would just say what your objection is to the concept of Emergent Leadership?

Well it seems like it is at least largely a euphemism for "Armed rebel groups that hate the U.S.", and that you are using it to attach some stamp of approval to those groups, even if at least some of these groups are actually quite wretched and brutal.

Now I could be all wrong in what you are getting it. You have supplied all kinds of abstract, general definitions of this term. But in applying it to actual, concrete situations, what I said above seems to apply.

Now you could clarify what you mean by your term, but until you do it comes across as that euphemism. You don't even tentatively exclude the Colombian guerilla groups that I mention all of the time. Perhaps I am wrong, but I really think that they are composed of some very bad, vicious people. Even though their leaders hate the U.S. (What argues against my assessment here?)
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 12:29 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 01:08 PM) *
Arne, I lost my response because the time ran out on my edit. Maybe we get more mileage out of this discussion if you would just say what your objection is to the concept of Emergent Leadership?

Well it seems like it is at least largely a euphemism for "Armed rebel groups that hate the U.S.", and that you are using it to attach some stamp of approval to those groups, even if at least some of these groups are actually quite wretched and brutal.

Now I could be all wrong in what you are getting it. You have supplied all kinds of abstract, general definitions of this term. But in applying it to actual, concrete situations, what I said above seems to apply.

Now you could clarify what you mean by your term, but until you do it comes across as that euphemism. You don't even tentatively exclude the Colombian guerilla groups that I mention all of the time. Perhaps I am wrong, but I really think that they are composed of some very bad, vicious people. Even though their leaders hate the U.S. (What argues against my assessment here?)

First of all Emergent Leadership can not occur except in the presence of emergent follow ship,
so we are not primarilly talking about a social control mechanism.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 03:06 PM) *
First of all Emergent Leadership can not occur except in the presence of emergent follow ship,
so we are not primarilly talking about a social control mechanism.

Does that mean that emergent leadership cannot be an armed group?
tazvil04
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 12 2008, 11:18 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 11:08 AM) *
Arne, I lost my response because the time ran out on my edit. Maybe we get more mileage out of this discussion if you would just say what your objection is to the concept of Emergent Leadership?


Maybe you could define emergent leadership for us and we could all comment on what he think about it...


Is this a private conversation?

laugh.gif
tazvil04
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 01:08 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 03:06 PM) *
First of all Emergent Leadership can not occur except in the presence of emergent follow ship,
so we are not primarilly talking about a social control mechanism.

Does that mean that emergent leadership cannot be an armed group?


Isn't the definition of emergent leadership (still waiting ofr one) at the end of the barrel of a gun...there's emergency leadership for you...



Arneoker
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 12 2008, 03:14 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 12 2008, 11:18 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 11:08 AM) *
Arne, I lost my response because the time ran out on my edit. Maybe we get more mileage out of this discussion if you would just say what your objection is to the concept of Emergent Leadership?


Maybe you could define emergent leadership for us and we could all comment on what he think about it...


Is this a private conversation?

laugh.gif

I don't see how it is. I do think that Rla needs to provide a clear definition of what he means here. Otherwise how can we really discuss it?
Arneoker
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 12 2008, 03:15 PM) *
Isn't the definition of emergent leadership (still waiting ofr one) at the end of the barrel of a gun...there's emergency leadership for you...

Of course that was Mao's definition of power, and there was a fair number of people known as "progressives" who supported him during his day.

So was he emergent, and was that necessarily a good thing?
tazvil04
I think he actually means by emergent..leadership that which emerges from the collective of a particualr community...

Voluntarily chosen and not chosen by duress or adhesion (the barrel of a gun) ....but I do not know if this is what he means or not...because I am not him...

BUt I do think this definition may be inadequate because I do not think that it would necessarily disqualify the leadership chosen in either Iraq or Afghanistan and I do think that he has some problem with....so maybe we add...

emergent leadership -- that leadership emerging naturally and voluntarily from teh community collective after the collective decides there is a need for leadership.

and emergent government would be the government which emerges naturally from a community collective once that community decides it is time for government...

but maybe this is too simplistic...
tazvil04
And he leaves the thread.... ?
Arneoker
Well we are all speculating about what Rla means, and that is unsatisfactory. But it is unsatisfactory for him to use that term when we aren't really sure what he means.

From what he has said he seems to think it a bad thing when the U.S. opposes this "emergent leadership". But unless we are clear on what he means by the term, how can we discuss whether that is a bad thing or not?

Maybe it is bad in some circumstances, but not in others. One thing we do know for sure, we cannot make a good judgment on that (to saying nothing about saying anything as to how the circumstances might matter) until we are clear on what this term is.
tazvil04
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 01:34 PM) *
Well we are all speculating about what Rla means, and that is unsatisfactory. But it is unsatisfactory for him to use that term when we aren't really sure what he means.

From what he has said he seems to think it a bad thing when the U.S. opposes this "emergent leadership". But unless we are clear on what he means by the term, how can we discuss whether that is a bad thing or not?

Maybe it is bad in some circumstances, but not in others. One thing we do know for sure, we cannot make a good judgment on that (to saying nothing about saying anything as to how the circumstances might matter) until we are clear on what this term is.


From my experience there is no leadership that is good in all circumstances or bad in all other circumstances...

Even dictators like Saddam have their positive moments -- now I am not supporting such leadership by any means -- just noting that some of the most efficient leadership has been dictatorial. For instance, military leadership cna be characterized as dictatorial and undemocratic and can be quite effective. On the other hand, it can be ineffective too when the one in charge hasn't the knowhow to know what to do in certain circumstances.
Arneoker
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 12 2008, 04:31 PM) *
From my experience there is no leadership that is good in all circumstances or bad in all other circumstances...

Even dictators like Saddam have their positive moments -- now I am not supporting such leadership by any means -- just noting that some of the most efficient leadership has been dictatorial. For instance, military leadership cna be characterized as dictatorial and undemocratic and can be quite effective. On the other hand, it can be ineffective too when the one in charge hasn't the knowhow to know what to do in certain circumstances.

I am thinking not so much in terms of individuals, but classes of leaders, like leaders of governments, political movements, liberation movements, various types of social movements, armed groups, etc.

It seems to me that it is hazardous to generalize about whether the leaders in any of these categories are good or bad, or should be supported, opposed or ignored by the U.S. government or anyone else. Except that I would say that leaders of armed groups (not associated with governments) are typically, but not always, fairly brutal people, who should be opposed when practical.
tazvil04
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 02:36 PM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 12 2008, 04:31 PM) *
From my experience there is no leadership that is good in all circumstances or bad in all other circumstances...

Even dictators like Saddam have their positive moments -- now I am not supporting such leadership by any means -- just noting that some of the most efficient leadership has been dictatorial. For instance, military leadership cna be characterized as dictatorial and undemocratic and can be quite effective. On the other hand, it can be ineffective too when the one in charge hasn't the knowhow to know what to do in certain circumstances.

I am thinking not so much in terms of individuals, but classes of leaders, like leaders of governments, political movements, liberation movements, various types of social movements, armed groups, etc.

It seems to me that it is hazardous to generalize about whether the leaders in any of these categories are good or bad, or should be supported, opposed or ignored by the U.S. government or anyone else. Except that I would say that leaders of armed groups (not associated with governments) are typically, but not always, fairly brutal people, who should be opposed when practical.


Absolutely -- there is no way to suggest that a certain type of leader given human weaknesses is superior to another type of leader IMHO...
rla
See http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/17117/1/ar900023.pdf for a discussion of Emergent
Leadership.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 04:48 PM) *
See http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/17117/1ar900023.pdf for a discussion of Emergent
Leadership.

No Rla, what do you mean by this term?

Since you have been using the term to help make your argument, I think it is up to you to define it clearly for us, so we can discuss it seriously.

Alternatively we could just continue the discussion without using the term.

Your paper here could be very informatitve, but we shouldn't have to read it to continue the discussion.

And your link doesn't seem to work anyway.
rla
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 03:48 PM) *
See http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/17117/1/ar900023.pdf for a discussion of Emergent
Leadership.

Still can't get the link to work. Google Emergent Leadership vs Revolution and you get several to pick from.
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 02:58 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 03:48 PM) *
See http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/17117/1/ar900023.pdf for a discussion of Emergent
Leadership.

Still can't get the link to work. Google Emergent Leadership vs Revolution and you get several to pick from.


rla you can't provide your own conception of it?

Arneoker
Quite honestly I think googling would be a waste of time. What are we supposed to do if we find different definitions?

Rla, clearly the best thing would be if you supply a clear definition of this term of yours.
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 03:56 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 04:48 PM) *
See http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/17117/1ar900023.pdf for a discussion of Emergent
Leadership.

No Rla, what do you mean by this term?

Since you have been using the term to help make your argument, I think it is up to you to define it clearly for us, so we can discuss it seriously.

Alternatively we could just continue the discussion without using the term.

Your paper here could be very informatitve, but we shouldn't have to read it to continue the discussion.

And your link doesn't seem to work anyway.

Emergent Leadership is a process that occurs when persons are aggregated within perceived boundaries. The term emerging leader is to distinguish an individual who is influencing a group and is not an assigned leader. An emerging leader may or may not be assigned a leadership
role by the organization or government, depending on the context. In the context of this thread,
I use the term to call attention to how communities of Afgans operate and how the Afganistan people
perceive/conceive of their Nation. Generally, the more structure that is imposed externally whether through top-down Management or Authoritarian government, the less opportunity for emergent leadership to develop. The key dynamic is that free and open interactions produces new patterns.
If the US is to be helpfull to other countries, as in Afganistan, we must learn more about how our own system operates and malfunctions. If the reader doubts that our own system functions poorly,
in this regard, I refer you to any of Livyjr's threads. In what ways do we manage our communities, States and Nation that encourages and reinforces emergent leadership and what kind of barriers and obstacles are put in the way?
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 03:51 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 12 2008, 03:56 PM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 12 2008, 04:48 PM) *
See http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/17117/1ar900023.pdf for a discussion of Emergent
Leadership.

No Rla, what do you mean by this term?

Since you have been using the term to help make your argument, I think it is up to you to define it clearly for us, so we can discuss it seriously.

Alternatively we could just continue the discussion without using the term.

Your paper here could be very informatitve, but we shouldn't have to read it to continue the discussion.

And your link doesn't seem to work anyway.

Emergent Leadership is a process that occurs when persons are aggregated within perceived boundaries. The term emerging leader is to distinguish an individual who is influencing a group and is not an assigned leader. An emerging leader may or may not be assigned a leadership role by the organization or government, depending on the context. In the context of this thread, I use the term to call attention to how communities of Afgans operate and how the Afganistan people perceive/conceive of their Nation. Generally, the more structure that is imposed externally whether through top-down Management or Authoritarian government, the less opportunity for emergent leadership to develop. The key dynamic is that free and open interactions produces new patterns.

If the US is to be helpfull to other countries, as in Afganistan, we must learn more about how our own system operates and malfunctions. If the reader doubts that our own system functions poorly, in this regard, I refer you to any of Livyjr's threads. In what ways do we manage our communities, States and Nation that encourages and reinforces emergent leadership and what kind of barriers and obstacles are put in the way?


Thank you for the explanation.

So are you suggesting a model for the development of leadership in Afghanistan, or are you saying that in contrast to the US, Afghanistan does develop emergent leadership?

And if Afghanistan does development this emergent leadership whic is the most desireable kind that you are talking about, what examples do you have of such leadership?

If the Afghanis are lacking such a system, then how do you propose that the US engage in the level of self introspection and examining, reexamining and evaluating systems to improve it. I guess I think it it practically speaking asking an awful lot for the United States in the midst of a war to first examine itself, institute changes to first create a system which supports the creation of emergent leadership and then develop and install those emergent leaders, in which case we will be in a better position to understand the system that we need to work with the Afghanis to create.

Again, it seems more theoretical than anything.

I have no problem with theory, but when it becomes impossible or impractical to implement -- well it just seems to lead to more possible frustration than any meaningful solution IMHO...
Arneoker
Based on that definition Rla I can only say that my comments in Post #278 still stand. Some of these leaders should be encouraged, others we should simply let be, and some we should help in suppressing.

We need to be careful in how we involve ourselves in the affairs of other countries as we have limited powers of positive influence in that area. On the other hand, as a great man who died recently once said, there are no internal affairs in the world anymore. In any event, this question, critically important, is a very different one than the one of assessing the nature of various leaders in these countries.

From your definition it seems like we would want to see leaders of the "emergent" variety. I think we should also want to see leaders of the "decent" variety, and "emergent" does not always imply "decent".

There is a group in Uganda called the Lords Resistance Army. I would wager that their leaders would meet the definition of "emergent leadership". In that case I think aiding the Ugandan government in suppressing them should not necessarily be considered a bad thing. Check out this group to see what I mean.
tazvil04
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.
Arneoker
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 09:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

As a general prescription for what to strive for I think it is good. But if he means we need to eliminate all of our defects before we do anything abroad then I agree with you and reject it as a call to do nothing. It is like a cop has no business stopping someone from bashing me in the head because that cop is not perfect himself.
tazvil04
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 13 2008, 07:17 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 09:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

As a general prescription for what to strive for I think it is good. But if he means we need to eliminate all of our defects before we do anything abroad then I agree with you and reject it as a call to do nothing. It is like a cop has no business stopping someone from bashing me in the head because that cop is not perfect himself.


Excellent analogy.

rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 08:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

My attempt to explain the concept of, "Emergent Leadership" is part of my argument that
there is nothing that the US can do to help the persons in Afganistan. Everything the US and its
"allies" do, adds to the problem of too much external force, which prohibits emerging leadership
from functioning. If our, "Leaders" were more aware of how things actually work in their
own country, they would know this. In the long run, improving our own system to make it more consistent with our own Constitution and our own principles and ideals is the way we can be most helpful to the other soverign nations of the world including Afganistan. The most powerfull and potent means of teaching social behavior is through modeling. With regards to this particular discussion, I am trying to keep the focus on the process of developing leadership--not what particular leaders are doing or not doing.
tazvil04
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 08:19 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 08:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

My attempt to explain the concept of, "Emergent Leadership" is part of my argument that
there is nothing that the US can do to help the persons in Afganistan. Everything the US and its
"allies" do, adds to the problem of too much external force, which prohibits emerging leadership
from functioning. If our, "Leaders" were more aware of how things actually work in their
own country, they would know this. In the long run, improving our own system to make it more consistent with our own Constitution and our own principles and ideals is the way we can be most helpful to the other soverign nations of the world including Afganistan. The most powerfull and potent means of teaching social behavior is through modeling.


Leading by example, where have I heard that before...

The only problem is where that leaves the Afghani people if we withdraw.

You have no problem with the slaughter of those who have been providing the US with intelligence and cooperating with the US against the Taliban?

You have no problem with the inhumane response that will occur as the Taliban retakes the country or at least a good portion of the country taking away the freedoms that the Afghan people have shortly enjoyed.

You have no problem with the sovereign state of Afghanistan having to surrender its sovereignty to the Taliban?

And how does abandoning Afghanistan's elected leaders promote the emergent leadership that you are speaking about.

I think these are the stark alternatives that your approach offers.

How does your theory work to deal with these realities?
rla
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 09:24 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 08:19 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 08:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

My attempt to explain the concept of, "Emergent Leadership" is part of my argument that
there is nothing that the US can do to help the persons in Afganistan. Everything the US and its
"allies" do, adds to the problem of too much external force, which prohibits emerging leadership
from functioning. If our, "Leaders" were more aware of how things actually work in their
own country, they would know this. In the long run, improving our own system to make it more consistent with our own Constitution and our own principles and ideals is the way we can be most helpful to the other soverign nations of the world including Afganistan. The most powerfull and potent means of teaching social behavior is through modeling.


Leading by example, where have I heard that before...

The only problem is where that leaves the Afghani people if we withdraw.

You have no problem with the slaughter of those who have been providing the US with intelligence and cooperating with the US against the Taliban?

You have no problem with the inhumane response that will occur as the Taliban retakes the country or at least a good portion of the country taking away the freedoms that the Afghan people have shortly enjoyed.

You have no problem with the sovereign state of Afghanistan having to surrender its sovereignty to the Taliban?

And how does abandoning Afghanistan's elected leaders promote the emergent leadership that you are speaking about.

I think these are the stark alternatives that your approach offers.

How does your theory work to deal with these realities?

Taz, I don't think you know what the fu** will happen in Afganistan if the US stops its war there
anymore than I do. Since we can not provide a solution, we can at least stop being a big part of the problem.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 10:57 AM) *
Taz, I don't think you know what the fu** will happen in Afganistan if the US stops its war there
anymore than I do. Since we can not provide a solution, we can at least stop being a big part of the problem.

So if a doctor is not sure how a surgery dealing with a grave condition will turn out then he or she should never attempt it? Point out those doctors to me so that I can avoid them.

Actually, Taz may know more than most. He certainly seems considerably better briefed on the subject of Afghanistan than all but a handful of people here at this forum. I for one respect that. That does not mean people need to agree with him all of the time, but I think that often they need more than off the cuff arguments to challenge his.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 10:19 AM) *
My attempt to explain the concept of, "Emergent Leadership" is part of my argument that
there is nothing that the US can do to help the persons in Afganistan. Everything the US and its
"allies" do, adds to the problem of too much external force, which prohibits emerging leadership
from functioning. If our, "Leaders" were more aware of how things actually work in their
own country, they would know this. In the long run, improving our own system to make it more consistent with our own Constitution and our own principles and ideals is the way we can be most helpful to the other soverign nations of the world including Afganistan. The most powerfull and potent means of teaching social behavior is through modeling. With regards to this particular discussion, I am trying to keep the focus on the process of developing leadership--not what particular leaders are doing or not doing.

I agree that the U.S. needs to be careful to let Afghanistan develop its own leaders and institutions in its own way, so such will be stronger and better rooted.

But what do you neglect here?

1. Not all "emergent leadership" is a good thing. I am going to presume that as an established fact in the discussion as it has never even been seriously challenged. (Not that the opportunity to do so has passed.)

2. I think modeling is a great thing. But it will not do the whole job as you seem to imply here. Some people, some "emergent leadership", will never be interested in the most wonderful model we can display. Some will spit on such a model. You cannot make people so inclined do otherwise. You can never teach people who don't want to be taught.

3. "What particular leaders are doing or not doing" is one of the most critical issues here! It is astounding that you would dismiss that. People are dying because of what particular leaders are doing.
amy
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 09:24 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 08:19 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 08:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

My attempt to explain the concept of, "Emergent Leadership" is part of my argument that
there is nothing that the US can do to help the persons in Afganistan. Everything the US and its
"allies" do, adds to the problem of too much external force, which prohibits emerging leadership
from functioning. If our, "Leaders" were more aware of how things actually work in their
own country, they would know this. In the long run, improving our own system to make it more consistent with our own Constitution and our own principles and ideals is the way we can be most helpful to the other soverign nations of the world including Afganistan. The most powerfull and potent means of teaching social behavior is through modeling.


Leading by example, where have I heard that before...

The only problem is where that leaves the Afghani people if we withdraw.

You have no problem with the slaughter of those who have been providing the US with intelligence and cooperating with the US against the Taliban?

You have no problem with the inhumane response that will occur as the Taliban retakes the country or at least a good portion of the country taking away the freedoms that the Afghan people have shortly enjoyed.

You have no problem with the sovereign state of Afghanistan having to surrender its sovereignty to the Taliban?

And how does abandoning Afghanistan's elected leaders promote the emergent leadership that you are speaking about.

I think these are the stark alternatives that your approach offers.

How does your theory work to deal with these realities?

Taz, I don't think you know what the fu** will happen in Afganistan if the US stops its war there
anymore than I do. Since we can not provide a solution, we can at least stop being a big part of the problem.


Well, predictions can be made about the probabilities of what might happen.
Istoodforu
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 09:24 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 08:19 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 13 2008, 08:11 AM) *
Arne:

What do you think about rla's call for the United States to first engage in self examination and retooling as a precondition before implementing or engaging in a cooperative leadership effort in Afghanistan.

I think this is sort of a pie in the sky suggestion -- in an ideal world -- a possibility -- but in the real world -- almost an impossibility.

My attempt to explain the concept of, "Emergent Leadership" is part of my argument that
there is nothing that the US can do to help the persons in Afganistan. Everything the US and its
"allies" do, adds to the problem of too much external force, which prohibits emerging leadership
from functioning. If our, "Leaders" were more aware of how things actually work in their
own country, they would know this. In the long run, improving our own system to make it more consistent with our own Constitution and our own principles and ideals is the way we can be most helpful to the other soverign nations of the world including Afganistan. The most powerfull and potent means of teaching social behavior is through modeling.


Leading by example, where have I heard that before...

The only problem is where that leaves the Afghani people if we withdraw.

You have no problem with the slaughter of those who have been providing the US with intelligence and cooperating with the US against the Taliban?

You have no problem with the inhumane response that will occur as the Taliban retakes the country or at least a good portion of the country taking away the freedoms that the Afghan people have shortly enjoyed.

You have no problem with the sovereign state of Afghanistan having to surrender its sovereignty to the Taliban?

And how does abandoning Afghanistan's elected leaders promote the emergent leadership that you are speaking about.

I think these are the stark alternatives that your approach offers.

How does your theory work to deal with these realities?


It's not about "leading by example," although US foreign policy could do a lot better at setting a good example.

The main point is that foreign military interventions tend to suppress the emergence of leaders who earn domestic grass-roots support. Then progressive activism and community organizing gives way to paramilitary insurgencies led by thugs or corrupt puppet regimes led by other thugs.

In Afghanistan Kharzai's tenure hinges on support both the foreign military intervention and the drug trade. Traditional mechanisms of peacetime governance have been set aside. Progressive activism or community organizing are likely to result in having one's door kicked down in the middle of the night by occupying troops looking for terrorists. Leaders are unlikely to emerge unless they align with one or another organization that has guns and money.

The dire outcomes that you list are not at all a certainty upon a orderly withdrawal of troops and concerted diplomatic and humanitarian efforts to leave Afghanistan in peace.
Arneoker
IS4U, how were things in Afghanistan between the withdrawal of the Soviets and the American intervention? It seems like that managed to have plenty of war and not all that much peace during that period. And what kinds of progressive leadership emerged there that have not emerged since the Americans got involved there?

And concerning the drug trade, wasn't it going pretty strong during that period?
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 13 2008, 10:01 AM) *
QUOTE(rla @ Aug 13 2008, 10:57 AM) *
Taz, I don't think you know what the fu** will happen in Afganistan if the US stops its war there
anymore than I do. Since we can not provide a solution, we can at least stop being a big part of the problem.

So if a doctor is not sure how a surgery dealing with a grave condition will turn out then he or she should never attempt it? Point out those doctors to me so that I can avoid them.

Actually, Taz may know more than most. He certainly seems considerably better briefed on the subject of Afghanistan than all but a handful of people here at this forum. I for one respect that. That does not mean people need to agree with him all of the time, but I think that often they need more than off the cuff arguments to challenge his.

In this case, where there is a very high probability that surgery is not indicated, our problem is how to stop the SOB before he further injuries the patient and also sends us a bill, which we will have to borrow money from the neighbor who hopes to foreclose on our home.
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 13 2008, 10:34 AM) *
IS4U, how were things in Afghanistan between the withdrawal of the Soviets and the American intervention? It seems like that managed to have plenty of war and not all that much peace during that period. And what kinds of progressive leadership emerged there that have not emerged since the Americans got involved there?

And concerning the drug trade, wasn't it going pretty strong during that period?

I don't think that looking backwards in this situation is likely to be helpful. The only sensible thing for the US to do is to is stop digging and get our troops out of harms way and see what happens.
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