Livyjr, I love my family, but that does not mean that I would claim that they are perfect in every respect, or that I would deny that they have done things that are wrong. Maybe one day I will find that one of them has done something very wrong. I expect that I would still love them.
But in terms of where the U.S. should be in the international system, that is a question which really only has the tiniest bit to do with how patriotic one is, how much they love their country. One could be quite indifferent to the U.S. and feel it vital for the U.S. to have a very active role in the world, or feel very patriotic, but also very isolationist. That is what was behind my disgust, it seemed to me that people were debating the wrong thing.
Full Version: ON PATRIOTISM
One definite thing that I wanted to do in here, Arneoker, for your edification, was to get as far away from the Obama/McCain food fight as possible ....
Patriotism is a separate issue ....
YES?
Or NO?
Patriotism is a separate issue ....
YES?
Or NO?
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 02:27 PM) 
rla, as usual, I am unsure of what meaning you intend to convey here - COULD NOT OPERATIONALIZE ....
As to God and our rights as mankind, the Massachusetts constitution states thusly in the third sentence of its Preamble:
We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
GOD and our rights as human beings appear to be inextricably intertwined there, I would say ....
The Constitution of the State of New York is even more explicit:
We The People of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our Freedom, in order to secure its blessings, DO ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION.
Is this consistent with the point that you were trying to make?
Or is it a refutation?
As to God and our rights as mankind, the Massachusetts constitution states thusly in the third sentence of its Preamble:
We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
GOD and our rights as human beings appear to be inextricably intertwined there, I would say ....
The Constitution of the State of New York is even more explicit:
We The People of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our Freedom, in order to secure its blessings, DO ESTABLISH THIS CONSTITUTION.
Is this consistent with the point that you were trying to make?
Or is it a refutation?
The way I look at it, the 13 original states and Texas have, for a short period of time existed
as Sovergn States. Ratifying the Constitution gave up any claim to Sovergnity to the National Government. As an administrative procedure, the National Government assigns State Citizenship
of one's state of residence.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 7 2008, 09:10 AM)
Are you saying that other nations have less religiosity and nationalism than we do? That is probably true about Western Europe. But how about other countries?
Put it this way,
- people of many other countries have more modesty in displaying signs of loyalty and devotion.
- since Reagan, there has been in the US an incredible inflation of the number of ceremonies where the solemness itself is the principal focus of the organizers, and where the behavior of participants is over-dramatized and over-loaded with symbolism, pushed into every newsfeed, relayed by dozens of satellites, as to make sure the most remote inhabitant of this planet is inspired to share the grief and remorse of people he will never meet.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 7 2008, 03:11 PM)
That is what was behind my disgust, it seemed to me that people were debating the wrong thing.
And we might still be, Arneoker ....
People in here, and this is not directed at anyone, nor is it censure, always seem to feel that what they say is intuitively obvious, and thus, nothing quantitative or qualitative ever seems to be developed ....
It would be like me telling you to google for a definition of DEVOTION ...
GOOGLE is dynamic ...
Things never come up in the same order ....
And yet people will tell other people to GOOGLE something to see what it is that they meant when they said something ....
In response to which I am going to say that we as a ntion over here seem to be very immature, to the point of sucking our thumb ....
This is something that I noticed when I got back to here from Viet Nam ....
In another thread where you were, I made posts on the Assyrians as Christians, and in the Wikipedia articles I posted from, it clearly stated that the Assyrians could trace THEIR christianity BACK TO CHRIST ....
That is 2,000 years, Arneoker ....
On Jay Leno one time, he went to a college graduation somewhere and asked two young women where the United Kingdom was ....
The smarter of the two, realizing that she didn't have a clue, did the right thing to do in that case while on TV - she deferred to the other one ....
And the other one, when pressed, as she was, admitted that she was not sure if the United Kingdom was in Disneyland or Disneyworld ....
Sooooo ....
Is that what?
Is that PATRIOTISM gone bad?
Is that excessive religiosity come to the fore?
Or is it that as a nation, we aren't really patriotic or religious ....
WE'RE JUST PLAIN ******* STOOOOOOPID ....
We know how to shop ....
But that is really all we know ...
Which is how we ended up with George W. Bush as our war leader, and a war in IRAQINAM against nothing, which we still can't win after five years?
CAN A STOOOOOOPID NATION SURVIVE?
Or is it just that we aren't patriotic enough ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 7 2008, 08:32 AM)
Charlottesville Daily Progress columnist Bryan McKenzie reported on our recent protest of Bush at Monticello that we had made our point of diminishing a citizen naturalization ceremony?
I heard those people on the radio, and I personally thought that they were immature and BOORISH ....
Very AMERICAN traits in vogue these days ....
And then they gave Bush the "ground" and let him mock them ....
Children ....
On all sides .....
I'm not big on yelling and interupting people myself ....
Bad manners are simply a sign of bad upbringing ....
Which seems to be another very American trait these days ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 7 2008, 08:32 AM)
Well I don't think that he shows the general worthlessness of patriotism and religion any more than he shows the general worthlessness of human beings.
SCORE POINT for Arneoker ...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 7 2008, 08:43 AM)
Now these might be very legitimate studies, but some possible difficulties come to mind.
For one, how would they measure the "religiosity" and "nationalism" of a country?
For one, how would they measure the "religiosity" and "nationalism" of a country?
SCORE POINT for Arneoker ....
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 04:30 PM)
And we might still be, Arneoker ....
People in here, and this is not directed at anyone, nor is it censure, always seem to feel that what they say is intuitively obvious, and thus, nothing quantitative or qualitative ever seems to be developed ....
It would be like me telling you to google for a definition of DEVOTION ...
GOOGLE is dynamic ...
Things never come up in the same order ....
And yet people will tell other people to GOOGLE something to see what it is that they meant when they said something ....
In response to which I am going to say that we as a ntion over here seem to be very immature, to the point of sucking our thumb ....
This is something that I noticed when I got back to here from Viet Nam ....
In another thread where you were, I made posts on the Assyrians as Christians, and in the Wikipedia articles I posted from, it clearly stated that the Assyrians could trace THEIR christianity BACK TO CHRIST ....
That is 2,000 years, Arneoker ....
On Jay Leno one time, he went to a college graduation somewhere and asked two young women where the United Kingdom was ....
The smarter of the two, realizing that she didn't have a clue, did the right thing to do in that case while on TV - she deferred to the other one ....
And the other one, when pressed, as she was, admitted that she was not sure if the United Kingdom was in Disneyland or Disneyworld ....
Sooooo ....
Is that what?
Is that PATRIOTISM gone bad?
Is that excessive religiosity come to the fore?
Or is it that as a nation, we aren't really patriotic or religious ....
WE'RE JUST PLAIN ******* STOOOOOOPID ....
We know how to shop ....
But that is really all we know ...
Which is how we ended up with George W. Bush as our war leader, and a war in IRAQINAM against nothing, which we still can't win after five years?
CAN A STOOOOOOPID NATION SURVIVE?
Or is it just that we aren't patriotic enough ....
And so ...
People in here, and this is not directed at anyone, nor is it censure, always seem to feel that what they say is intuitively obvious, and thus, nothing quantitative or qualitative ever seems to be developed ....
It would be like me telling you to google for a definition of DEVOTION ...
GOOGLE is dynamic ...
Things never come up in the same order ....
And yet people will tell other people to GOOGLE something to see what it is that they meant when they said something ....
In response to which I am going to say that we as a ntion over here seem to be very immature, to the point of sucking our thumb ....
This is something that I noticed when I got back to here from Viet Nam ....
In another thread where you were, I made posts on the Assyrians as Christians, and in the Wikipedia articles I posted from, it clearly stated that the Assyrians could trace THEIR christianity BACK TO CHRIST ....
That is 2,000 years, Arneoker ....
On Jay Leno one time, he went to a college graduation somewhere and asked two young women where the United Kingdom was ....
The smarter of the two, realizing that she didn't have a clue, did the right thing to do in that case while on TV - she deferred to the other one ....
And the other one, when pressed, as she was, admitted that she was not sure if the United Kingdom was in Disneyland or Disneyworld ....
Sooooo ....
Is that what?
Is that PATRIOTISM gone bad?
Is that excessive religiosity come to the fore?
Or is it that as a nation, we aren't really patriotic or religious ....
WE'RE JUST PLAIN ******* STOOOOOOPID ....
We know how to shop ....
But that is really all we know ...
Which is how we ended up with George W. Bush as our war leader, and a war in IRAQINAM against nothing, which we still can't win after five years?
CAN A STOOOOOOPID NATION SURVIVE?
Or is it just that we aren't patriotic enough ....
And so ...
On many of the Idexes comparing Nations, the US frequently comes out close to Turkey. Relatively
speaking, we're doing about as well as Turkey.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 6 2008, 07:10 PM)
Do you recall JINGOISM from your early studies, picadilly?
Yes, but I really only saw the term being used when Reagan was president.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 08:43 AM)
Yes, everything that is, is relative and human beings tend to do too much of what they like to do and do well and not enough of what we need to do.
Let's just shoot the whole lot of them ...
And let the dogs and cats take over ....
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 04:39 PM)
SCORE POINT for Arneoker ....
I think I answered the question. Perhaps I missed something.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 04:43 PM)
Let's just shoot the whole lot of them ...
And let the dogs and cats take over ....
And let the dogs and cats take over ....
Speaking of clarity of communication? I am having some difficulty in relating your response
to my post?
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 7 2008, 04:03 PM)
... But patriotism is even more dangerous, because "love of" or "devotion to" one's country is a more abstract concept. You are declaring love of and/or devotion to millions of people, the vast majority you don't even know.
Like George Dubya Bush ?
QUOTE
... And all kinds of other things that go along with "country",...
Like torture ?
QUOTE
... many of which are very abstract concepts.
... and so very easily mistaken or miscontrued ...
QUOTE
With all of these abstractions I think that one can easily "abstract" one's love away from other countries, or perhaps even things and people within the country (things that are "unAmerican"), and have an excuse for channeling one's aggressive feelings.
Scapegoats. Too bad for the goats.
QUOTE
Thus you can justify your hate. You hate the "enemies" of your country, they oppose all that you hold dear.
Let's see, we got, NFL, Nascar, guns, bbqs, baseball, rock'n'roll, country music, Playboy magazine ...
Seriously, is there any country out there that is going to spend a nickle to take any of these away from americans ?
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 7 2008, 08:46 AM)
I would use a touchstone garnered from Christ.
"Do unto others..."
What I mean is that when either "nationalism" or "religion" attempt to impose themselves on any "other" they are crossing the aforementioned line.
"Do unto others..."
What I mean is that when either "nationalism" or "religion" attempt to impose themselves on any "other" they are crossing the aforementioned line.
And here, TROU, I am saying that once that line is crossed, you are now in different territory ...
When something defined originally as "nationalism" now reaches a point of where it can "OPERATE" on others by "imposing" something on them, WHAT EXACTLY HAS HAD TO OCCUR?
OR ...
When something defined originally as "religion" now reaches a point of where it can "OPERATE" on others by "imposing" something on them, WHAT EXACTLY HAS HAD TO OCCUR?
Nationalism and religion are but concepts or constructs ...
HOW do concepts IMPOSE themselves on anything or anyone?
QUOTE(picadilly @ Jul 7 2008, 05:19 PM)
Put it this way,
- people of many other countries have more modesty in displaying signs of loyalty and devotion.
- since Reagan, there has been in the US an incredible inflation of the number of ceremonies where the solemness itself is the principal focus of the organizers, and where the behavior of participants is over-dramatized and over-loaded with symbolism, pushed into every newsfeed, relayed by dozens of satellites, as to make sure the most remote inhabitant of this planet is inspired to share the grief and remorse of people he will never meet.
- people of many other countries have more modesty in displaying signs of loyalty and devotion.
- since Reagan, there has been in the US an incredible inflation of the number of ceremonies where the solemness itself is the principal focus of the organizers, and where the behavior of participants is over-dramatized and over-loaded with symbolism, pushed into every newsfeed, relayed by dozens of satellites, as to make sure the most remote inhabitant of this planet is inspired to share the grief and remorse of people he will never meet.
Its simpler than that. Other nations are not so certain they are always right and so quick to pat themselves on the back. At least if they think it, they tend to do less overt bragging. Perhaps that seems like a lesser degree of patriotism or perhaps its just showing more discernment.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 03:54 PM)
Speaking of clarity of communication?
I am having some difficulty in relating your response to my post?
I am having some difficulty in relating your response to my post?
rla, your post stated that people don't do the things we need them to do, or words to that effect ....
So I responded by saying let's just get rid of them, then, that's all ....
THERE ARE 300 MILLION PEOPLE HERE IN AMERICA, rla ...
It sounds to me like you singlehandedly want to MANAGE each and every one of them ...
And you are trying to enlist us all in that cause ...
LIBERTY allows all of these people to simply live their lives of quiet desperation ....
They don't all need to go to COLLITCH and get multiple degrees ....
They can be stone masons ...
They can change oil on cars ...
They aren't free to break the law ...
But outside of that, I am for just leaving them the **** alone ....
I am for NOT MAKING models that they then must follow ...
I am for NOT DICTATING what the basic social element is ...
IN AMERICA, THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN IS THE BASIC SOCIAL ELEMENT ...
Not the family ....
Not the community ...
The citizen ...
Otherwise, we are turning into Russia over here, with COLLECTIVIZATION ....
THE HIVE ....
That is the impression that I am being left with by your posts, rla ...
DO YOU WISH TO COLLECTIVIZE AMERICA?
Is that a cure for anything?
If it is, then shoot me first, and put a dog or cat in my place ....
And so ...
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 7 2008, 04:10 PM)
.... or perhaps its just showing more acumen .....
GREAT to see you here, CO ....
Thanks for the insights, as always ....
Ah .....
Say, CO .....
Which one is it where the United Kingdom is located?
I thought it was Disneyland ....
But now I'm just not sure ....
COULD IT BE DISNEYWORLD?
And so ...
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 7 2008, 09:00 AM)
But those today like rla and others who can see what is culturally poisonous, while it is happening, are alas voices shouting in the wilderness.
SHAME, SHAME TROU ...
rla does not have to shout ....
This is NOT a wilderness in here ....
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 06:15 PM)
If it is, then shoot me first, and put a dog or cat in my place ....
And so ...
And so ...
What the h*** do you have against dogs and cats Liv ???
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 11:30 AM)
The need for a Person-centered, Community-based, Nationally Guaranteed and Internationally Sanctioned Social System has finally become Obvious to just about everybody.
The question open for discussion is, How?
The question open for discussion is, How?
The question is more of one of what century, rla ....
And the Muslims would tell you that they already had such a system in place, so what is wrong with you and us ....
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 06:19 PM)
GREAT to see you here, CO ....
Thanks for the insights, as always ....
Ah .....
Say, CO .....
Which one is it where the United Kingdom is located?
I thought it was Disneyland ....
But now I'm just not sure ....
COULD IT BE DISNEYWORLD?
And so ...
Thanks for the insights, as always ....
Ah .....
Say, CO .....
Which one is it where the United Kingdom is located?
I thought it was Disneyland ....
But now I'm just not sure ....
COULD IT BE DISNEYWORLD?
And so ...
Not sure, never can keep them straight... Does Disneyworld have Islands ?
The ones I find astounding Liv are the ones who can't name who the Vice President is or who can't find the US on a map. And some of those characters are university grads or teachers.
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 7 2008, 04:23 PM)
What the h*** do you have against dogs and cats Liv ???
Absolutely nothing, CO ....
They have a lot more patience than I do, is all ...
They would wait on line better ....
That's all ....
They are probably a lot more adaptable to rla's worldwide system than I am ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 06:29 PM)
Absolutely nothing, CO ....
They have a lot more patience than I do, is all ...
They would wait on line better ....
That's all ....
They are probably a lot more adaptable to rla's worldwide system than I am ....
And so ...
They have a lot more patience than I do, is all ...
They would wait on line better ....
That's all ....
They are probably a lot more adaptable to rla's worldwide system than I am ....
And so ...
That was tongue in cheek Liv ... I'm with you as far as preferring thinking for myself. Collective thinking leads to a dumbing down .. I don't need more help with that !
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 7 2008, 04:26 PM)
Not sure, never can keep them straight...
Does Disneyworld have Islands ?
The ones I find astounding Liv are the ones who can't name who the Vice President is or who can't find the US on a map.
And some of those characters are university grads or teachers.
Does Disneyworld have Islands ?
The ones I find astounding Liv are the ones who can't name who the Vice President is or who can't find the US on a map.
And some of those characters are university grads or teachers.
I think whatever one is in Florida might ...
And you're now naming the main qualifications to be a UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR down here ....
Somebody turned out those two young women as college graduates, after all ....
And so ...
Outside of knowing how to shop ....
I don't know if we know anything at all ....
And when he was first running for president, I don't think George W. Bush could find Africa on a map ...
But hey ....
He was an MBA ....
And what do they need to know about geometry, anyway?
And so ...
QUOTE(picadilly @ Jul 7 2008, 01:24 PM)
So eventually, one could eventually call it, with reasonable justification CONTRA-SURVIVAL.
There is where I was heading you, picadilly ....
IN THE LONG RUN ....
By the way, in the early-1900's, the NEWTONIAN CLOCKWORK MODEL went out the window with developments in thermodynamics, specifically with regard to WHY IS ENTROPY, and quantum mechanics, and quantum dynamics and quantum physics ....
And "GOD" came back in ...
Einstein famously said, "GOD does not play dice ..."
In quantum physics, it is acknowledged that the act of observing affects what is being observed ...
And it can never not be otherwise .....
WE SHAPE THE WORLD WITH OUR THOUGHTS ALONE ...
Otherwise, this thread would be a total waste of time ...
I mean, if we are stuck on some railroad ride to hell, regardless, because that is where the only set of tracks go ...
And we can't get off ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 06:33 PM)
I think whatever one is in Florida might ...
And you're now naming the main qualifications to be a UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR down here ....
Somebody turned out those two young women as college graduates, after all ....
And so ...
Outside of knowing how to shop ....
I don't know if we know anything at all ....
And when he was first running for president, I don't think George W. Bush could find Africa on a map ...
But hey ....
He was an MBA ....
And what do they need to know about geometry, anyway?
And so ...
And you're now naming the main qualifications to be a UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR down here ....
Somebody turned out those two young women as college graduates, after all ....
And so ...
Outside of knowing how to shop ....
I don't know if we know anything at all ....
And when he was first running for president, I don't think George W. Bush could find Africa on a map ...
But hey ....
He was an MBA ....
And what do they need to know about geometry, anyway?
And so ...
Yeah, but everyone thought he'd be a great guy to have a beer with. That always amazes me.
I don't have to like a leader personally, I just need to know that he just might do the job he is being hired to do.
QUOTE(picadilly @ Jul 7 2008, 02:12 PM)
Please, can we drop once and for all the "superpower" qualifier ?
It's dead with the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War.
Every time I read this it makes me cringe.
Especially when we consider how the Superpower is super bogged down in "bombed back to stone age" Iraq and "pre-historic" Afghanistan and when 30 million americans are living on $90 a month worth of food stamps.
Thank you.
It's dead with the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War.
Every time I read this it makes me cringe.
Especially when we consider how the Superpower is super bogged down in "bombed back to stone age" Iraq and "pre-historic" Afghanistan and when 30 million americans are living on $90 a month worth of food stamps.
Thank you.
NO, picadilly, THANK YOU ...
And you are such a SUPERHERO for bringing that up in here ...
And so ....
By the way, where on earth did that come from?
There are mere heros .....
And then ....
There are SUPERHEROS ....
Are they above the MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE?
Or are they ranked below?
And is it a statistically valid ranking?
I'm always concerned about that, myself ...
And so ....
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 7 2008, 04:47 PM)
I just need to know that he just might do the job he is being hired to do.
AND THERE IS OUR AMERICAN PROBLEM BIG-TIME, CO ....
The same American people who don't know whether or not the United Kingdom is in Disneyland or Disneyworld "hired" George W. Bush to be the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the AMERICAN PEOPLE, quite literally ....
AND HE IS DOING THAT JOB ...
That is why we are losing OUR LIBERTY down here, while George W. Bush fights for FREEDOM in his GWOT ....
And so ...
LEVIATHAN, CO ....
Thomas Hobbes ....
And the BUSHIAN REPUBLICANS ....
All same, same ...
But alas, nobody here in America has a clue as to who or what Thomas Hobbes might have been ...
And so we are doomed to have to live it, instead ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 04:05 PM)
There is the problem with words, Arneoker ....
They always require other words to define them ....
BUT ...
For this thread, that is the OPERATIVE DEFINITION that we are using for DEVOTION ....
Love is something else, perhaps ....
And so ...
They always require other words to define them ....
BUT ...
For this thread, that is the OPERATIVE DEFINITION that we are using for DEVOTION ....
Love is something else, perhaps ....
And so ...
That works for me, Livyjr. I am also glad to see the concept of, "Operational Definition," is
in play...reference our earlier discussion about making the concept, "God" operational in
the US constitution...Love is indeed, something else...Love, like Self is both subject and object.
Noun and Verb. Love is more like patriotism, when in its Verb Form--what you do to facilitate self-maintainance and growth of the Other...
rla ....
Without looking right or left ....
Here is a question for you ....
It is an existential question ....
Or maybe it is Gestalt ...
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION TOWARDS BUSH-HOGGING?
AMBIVALENCE?
ANTIPATHY?
OR PATHOS?
Without looking right or left ....
Here is a question for you ....
It is an existential question ....
Or maybe it is Gestalt ...
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION TOWARDS BUSH-HOGGING?
AMBIVALENCE?
ANTIPATHY?
OR PATHOS?
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 04:55 PM)
That works for me, Livyjr.
I am also glad to see the concept of, "Operational Definition," is in play ... reference our earlier discussion about making the concept, "God" operational in the US constitution ...
Love is indeed, something else ...
Love, like Self is both subject and object.
Noun and Verb.
Love is more like patriotism, when in its Verb Form--what you do to facilitate self-maintainance and growth of the Other...
I am also glad to see the concept of, "Operational Definition," is in play ... reference our earlier discussion about making the concept, "God" operational in the US constitution ...
Love is indeed, something else ...
Love, like Self is both subject and object.
Noun and Verb.
Love is more like patriotism, when in its Verb Form--what you do to facilitate self-maintainance and growth of the Other...
Thanks for participating, rla ....
You are a valuable contributer ...
We literally are right now searching more for some common terminology than anything else ...
We're like all those blind men shouting out all at once what an elephant is by the part of it that we are in contact with ...
Don't be the one who has the part under the tail is my GOAL in that exercise ....
Especially after the elephant's mealtime ....
And how can you ever tell but by experience?
And so ...
And maybe what we are searching for is - IS THERE EVER, OR CAN THERE EVER TRULY BE A HEALTHFUL OR HEALTHY PATRIOTISM?
Or will it always be deformed by the act of bringing the concept into being?
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 05:55 PM)
AND THERE IS OUR AMERICAN PROBLEM BIG-TIME, CO ....
The same American people who don't know whether or not the United Kingdom is in Disneyland or Disneyworld "hired" George W. Bush to be the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the AMERICAN PEOPLE, quite literally ....
AND HE IS DOING THAT JOB ...
That is why we are losing OUR LIBERTY down here, while George W. Bush fights for FREEDOM in his GWOT ....
And so ...
LEVIATHAN, CO ....
Thomas Hobbes ....
And the BUSHIAN REPUBLICANS ....
All same, same ...
But alas, nobody here in America has a clue as to who or what Thomas Hobbes might have been ...
And so we are doomed to have to live it, instead ....
And so ...
The same American people who don't know whether or not the United Kingdom is in Disneyland or Disneyworld "hired" George W. Bush to be the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the AMERICAN PEOPLE, quite literally ....
AND HE IS DOING THAT JOB ...
That is why we are losing OUR LIBERTY down here, while George W. Bush fights for FREEDOM in his GWOT ....
And so ...
LEVIATHAN, CO ....
Thomas Hobbes ....
And the BUSHIAN REPUBLICANS ....
All same, same ...
But alas, nobody here in America has a clue as to who or what Thomas Hobbes might have been ...
And so we are doomed to have to live it, instead ....
And so ...
Some mighty potent Oratory there Livyjr. Political rhetoric to be recycled by the high-end evangelical
right wingers and on down to the low-end Fundamentalist Evangelical right wingers. I think introducing the philosophy of Thomas Hobbs, at this time and place, is a tactic to dislodge any
use of the concept of, "Social Contract" in any political discourse (whether the actor is aware of
doing that or not). The reason I think so is this is not the first you have used it on me. I really appreciate having worthy debating partners...I'm not like some of my buddies who would rather be right than get laid.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 06:00 PM)
rla ....
Without looking right or left ....
Here is a question for you ....
It is an existential question ....
Or maybe it is Gestalt ...
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION TOWARDS BUSH-HOGGING?
AMBIVALENCE?
ANTIPATHY?
OR PATHOS?
Without looking right or left ....
Here is a question for you ....
It is an existential question ....
Or maybe it is Gestalt ...
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION TOWARDS BUSH-HOGGING?
AMBIVALENCE?
ANTIPATHY?
OR PATHOS?
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 05:20 PM)
Some mighty potent Oratory there Livyjr.
Political rhetoric to be recycled by the high-end evangelical right wingers and on down to the low-end Fundamentalist Evangelical right wingers.
I think introducing the philosophy of Thomas Hobbs, at this time and place, is a tactic to dislodge any use of the concept of, "Social Contract" in any political discourse (whether the actor is aware of doing that or not).
The reason I think so is this is not the first you have used it on me.
I really appreciate having worthy debating partners...I'm not like some of my buddies who would rather be right than get laid.
Political rhetoric to be recycled by the high-end evangelical right wingers and on down to the low-end Fundamentalist Evangelical right wingers.
I think introducing the philosophy of Thomas Hobbs, at this time and place, is a tactic to dislodge any use of the concept of, "Social Contract" in any political discourse (whether the actor is aware of doing that or not).
The reason I think so is this is not the first you have used it on me.
I really appreciate having worthy debating partners...I'm not like some of my buddies who would rather be right than get laid.
You know, rla, you have the knack of losing me in your dust very easily ...
HUH?
Rather be right than get laid?
What on earth does that have to do with PATRIOTISM?
Ans when have I used "something" on you before?
You have throughly lost me, rla ....
And so ...
I'm trying to find out if you love bush-hogging is all .....
Or if you find it to be just work ...
Or if you find it to be just work ...
Way back, on talk radio up here, the right-wing thick-lipped RUSH LIMBAUGH LOOK-ALIKE WANNA-BE on CLEARCHANNELS radio up here where I am was literally PROCLAIMING that George W. Bush WAS the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the AMERICAN PEOPLE ...
I managed to get through on a call and challenged that ...
Then he hit the KILL BUTTON and cut me off, and went on proclaiming ....
I also had many younger people throw in my face that George W. Bush was OUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, and that we had to obey him ...
Is this POTENT POLITICAL RHETORIC on my part that is intended to dislodge the social contract from in here?
I certainly don't think so, myself ....
It's just a statement of fact ....
And the BUSHIANS are Hobbesians ....
I was BLOGGING about that way, way back on the John Kerry forum ...
So that is all old, old news, rla ....
And so ...
I managed to get through on a call and challenged that ...
Then he hit the KILL BUTTON and cut me off, and went on proclaiming ....
I also had many younger people throw in my face that George W. Bush was OUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, and that we had to obey him ...
Is this POTENT POLITICAL RHETORIC on my part that is intended to dislodge the social contract from in here?
I certainly don't think so, myself ....
It's just a statement of fact ....
And the BUSHIANS are Hobbesians ....
I was BLOGGING about that way, way back on the John Kerry forum ...
So that is all old, old news, rla ....
And so ...
IS THIS AN EXAMPLE OF NATIONALISM ON THE PART OF THE IRAQIS?
OR EXCESSIVE PATRIOTISM?
OR IS IT JUST MORE POLITICAL CONNIVING?
AND IT IS VIET NAM ALL OVER AGAIN WITH RESPECT TO DELAYING THE ELECTIONS ....
AND BY-PASSING THE AMERICAN CONGRESS ...
And so ...
"Iraq wants short-term US agreement on troops"
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA and SEBASTIAN ABBOT, Associated Press Writers
7 JULY 2008
BAGHDAD - Iraq's prime minister said Monday his country is now proposing an interim deal with the United States on the presence of American troops instead of a more formal agreement — and wants to include a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal.
Some type of agreement is needed to keep U.S. troops in Iraq after a U.N. mandate expires at year's end.
But many Iraqi lawmakers had criticized the government's attempt to negotiate a formal status of forces agreement, worried that U.S. demands would threaten the country's sovereignty.
Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the memorandum "now on the table" includes a formula for the withdrawal of U.S. troops — an idea opposed by President Bush.
"The goal is to end the presence (of foreign troops)," al-Maliki told several Arab ambassadors to the United Arab Emirates during a meeting in Abu Dhabi.
The prime minister provided no details.
But his national security adviser, Mouwaffak al-Rubaie, told The Associated Press that the government is proposing a timetable conditioned on the ability of Iraqi forces to provide security.
U.S. officials have said little publicly about the negotiations.
Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did not comment directly on the specifics when asked about it on a trip to Baghdad.
"We'd all like to see U.S. troops get out of here at some point in time," Mullen said.
"However, from a military perspective I need the laws and the regulations and the agreements from the government of Iraq in order to continue operations beyond the 31st of December of this year."
With the latest moves, Iraq's government appeared to be trying to blunt opposition in parliament to any deal.
Al-Maliki also could be trying to avoid parliament altogether.
He has promised in the past to submit a formal agreement with the U.S. to the legislative body.
But his spokesman indicated Monday that the government might feel no need to get approval from parliament for a shorter-term interim deal.
"It is up to the Cabinet whether to approve it or sign on it, without going back to the parliament," said spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh.
Legal experts said the form of the deal was less significant than its substance.
"You could theoretically include everything in a memorandum of understanding that you could in a formal status of forces agreement," said Michael Matheson, an expert on international law at George Washington University Law School.
The Bush administration has said it doesn't need congressional approval even for a full status of forces agreement — a position criticized by some U.S. lawmakers.
The contentious issues have been U.S. authority to carry out military operations in Iraq and arrest the country's citizens, along with legal immunity for private contractors and control of Iraqi air space.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said last week after a visit to Washington that the U.S. had agreed to drop immunity for private contractors and give up control of Iraqi air space if Iraq guaranteed it could protect the country's skies.
But those concessions, never confirmed by the U.S. side, were apparently not enough to cement a formal agreement, leading Iraq instead to pursue the memorandum.
Al-Maliki said the memorandum would not ignore the thorny issues that held up a more formal deal.
"The memorandum tackles troop movement and presence, respect of sovereignty, direct arrests and direct immunity," he said.
Iraq's government has felt increasingly confident in recent weeks about its authority and the country's improved stability.
Parliament said Monday it would vote July 15 whether to approve provincial elections originally scheduled for Oct. 1.
But a senior election official said it was impossible to hold the elections on schedule.
If the vote is to be held before the end of the year, parliament must approve the elections by the end of July, said Judge Qassim al-Aboudi.
Violence in Iraq has fallen to its lowest level in four years.
The change has been driven by the 2007 buildup of American forces, the Sunni tribal revolt against al-Qaida in Iraq and crackdowns against Shiite militias and Sunni extremists.
Despite the gains, frequent attacks continue.
A roadside bomb killed four people and injured three others Monday close to the Iranian border near Khanaqin, 90 miles northeast of Baghdad, said border guard Capt. Sarchel Abdul-Karim.
Another bomb near a dress shop in Baqouba killed one woman Monday and wounded 14 other people, police said.
Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, and the surrounding Diyala province remain one of the country's most violent regions.
Also Monday, gunmen killed a member of the Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party in Tal Afar, 260 miles northwest of Baghdad, said police, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
OR EXCESSIVE PATRIOTISM?
OR IS IT JUST MORE POLITICAL CONNIVING?
AND IT IS VIET NAM ALL OVER AGAIN WITH RESPECT TO DELAYING THE ELECTIONS ....
AND BY-PASSING THE AMERICAN CONGRESS ...
And so ...
"Iraq wants short-term US agreement on troops"
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA and SEBASTIAN ABBOT, Associated Press Writers
7 JULY 2008
BAGHDAD - Iraq's prime minister said Monday his country is now proposing an interim deal with the United States on the presence of American troops instead of a more formal agreement — and wants to include a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal.
Some type of agreement is needed to keep U.S. troops in Iraq after a U.N. mandate expires at year's end.
But many Iraqi lawmakers had criticized the government's attempt to negotiate a formal status of forces agreement, worried that U.S. demands would threaten the country's sovereignty.
Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said the memorandum "now on the table" includes a formula for the withdrawal of U.S. troops — an idea opposed by President Bush.
"The goal is to end the presence (of foreign troops)," al-Maliki told several Arab ambassadors to the United Arab Emirates during a meeting in Abu Dhabi.
The prime minister provided no details.
But his national security adviser, Mouwaffak al-Rubaie, told The Associated Press that the government is proposing a timetable conditioned on the ability of Iraqi forces to provide security.
U.S. officials have said little publicly about the negotiations.
Adm. Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did not comment directly on the specifics when asked about it on a trip to Baghdad.
"We'd all like to see U.S. troops get out of here at some point in time," Mullen said.
"However, from a military perspective I need the laws and the regulations and the agreements from the government of Iraq in order to continue operations beyond the 31st of December of this year."
With the latest moves, Iraq's government appeared to be trying to blunt opposition in parliament to any deal.
Al-Maliki also could be trying to avoid parliament altogether.
He has promised in the past to submit a formal agreement with the U.S. to the legislative body.
But his spokesman indicated Monday that the government might feel no need to get approval from parliament for a shorter-term interim deal.
"It is up to the Cabinet whether to approve it or sign on it, without going back to the parliament," said spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh.
Legal experts said the form of the deal was less significant than its substance.
"You could theoretically include everything in a memorandum of understanding that you could in a formal status of forces agreement," said Michael Matheson, an expert on international law at George Washington University Law School.
The Bush administration has said it doesn't need congressional approval even for a full status of forces agreement — a position criticized by some U.S. lawmakers.
The contentious issues have been U.S. authority to carry out military operations in Iraq and arrest the country's citizens, along with legal immunity for private contractors and control of Iraqi air space.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said last week after a visit to Washington that the U.S. had agreed to drop immunity for private contractors and give up control of Iraqi air space if Iraq guaranteed it could protect the country's skies.
But those concessions, never confirmed by the U.S. side, were apparently not enough to cement a formal agreement, leading Iraq instead to pursue the memorandum.
Al-Maliki said the memorandum would not ignore the thorny issues that held up a more formal deal.
"The memorandum tackles troop movement and presence, respect of sovereignty, direct arrests and direct immunity," he said.
Iraq's government has felt increasingly confident in recent weeks about its authority and the country's improved stability.
Parliament said Monday it would vote July 15 whether to approve provincial elections originally scheduled for Oct. 1.
But a senior election official said it was impossible to hold the elections on schedule.
If the vote is to be held before the end of the year, parliament must approve the elections by the end of July, said Judge Qassim al-Aboudi.
Violence in Iraq has fallen to its lowest level in four years.
The change has been driven by the 2007 buildup of American forces, the Sunni tribal revolt against al-Qaida in Iraq and crackdowns against Shiite militias and Sunni extremists.
Despite the gains, frequent attacks continue.
A roadside bomb killed four people and injured three others Monday close to the Iranian border near Khanaqin, 90 miles northeast of Baghdad, said border guard Capt. Sarchel Abdul-Karim.
Another bomb near a dress shop in Baqouba killed one woman Monday and wounded 14 other people, police said.
Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, and the surrounding Diyala province remain one of the country's most violent regions.
Also Monday, gunmen killed a member of the Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party in Tal Afar, 260 miles northwest of Baghdad, said police, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 05:29 PM)
Absolutely nothing, CO ....
They have a lot more patience than I do, is all ...
They would wait on line better ....
That's all ....
They are probably a lot more adaptable to rla's worldwide system than I am ....
And so ...
They have a lot more patience than I do, is all ...
They would wait on line better ....
That's all ....
They are probably a lot more adaptable to rla's worldwide system than I am ....
And so ...
Livyjr, I'm getting a lot of hostile sounding comments directed at me from you and I'm
uncertain how to read the situation. I would appreciate it if you select specific assertions
that I've made to rebut.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 06:55 PM)
AND THERE IS OUR AMERICAN PROBLEM BIG-TIME, CO ....
The same American people who don't know whether or not the United Kingdom is in Disneyland or Disneyworld "hired" George W. Bush to be the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the AMERICAN PEOPLE, quite literally ....
AND HE IS DOING THAT JOB ...
That is why we are losing OUR LIBERTY down here, while George W. Bush fights for FREEDOM in his GWOT ....
And so ...
LEVIATHAN, CO ....
Thomas Hobbes ....
And the BUSHIAN REPUBLICANS ....
All same, same ...
But alas, nobody here in America has a clue as to who or what Thomas Hobbes might have been ...
And so we are doomed to have to live it, instead ....
And so ...
The same American people who don't know whether or not the United Kingdom is in Disneyland or Disneyworld "hired" George W. Bush to be the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of the AMERICAN PEOPLE, quite literally ....
AND HE IS DOING THAT JOB ...
That is why we are losing OUR LIBERTY down here, while George W. Bush fights for FREEDOM in his GWOT ....
And so ...
LEVIATHAN, CO ....
Thomas Hobbes ....
And the BUSHIAN REPUBLICANS ....
All same, same ...
But alas, nobody here in America has a clue as to who or what Thomas Hobbes might have been ...
And so we are doomed to have to live it, instead ....
And so ...
Someone once made a statement which fits the educational system these days in the US ...
" Your school may have done away with the winners and losers, but the world has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades. They'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This, of course, doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to anything in real life."
Here are a couple of quotes which I believe we would all do well to heed.. and which far too many ignore, IMO
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on "I am not too sure."
- H.L.Mencken
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 04:30 PM)
And we might still be, Arneoker ....
People in here, and this is not directed at anyone, nor is it censure, always seem to feel that what they say is intuitively obvious, and thus, nothing quantitative or qualitative ever seems to be developed ....
It would be like me telling you to google for a definition of DEVOTION ...
GOOGLE is dynamic ...
Things never come up in the same order ....
And yet people will tell other people to GOOGLE something to see what it is that they meant when they said something ....
In response to which I am going to say that we as a ntion over here seem to be very immature, to the point of sucking our thumb ....
This is something that I noticed when I got back to here from Viet Nam ....
In another thread where you were, I made posts on the Assyrians as Christians, and in the Wikipedia articles I posted from, it clearly stated that the Assyrians could trace THEIR christianity BACK TO CHRIST ....
That is 2,000 years, Arneoker ....
On Jay Leno one time, he went to a college graduation somewhere and asked two young women where the United Kingdom was ....
The smarter of the two, realizing that she didn't have a clue, did the right thing to do in that case while on TV - she deferred to the other one ....
And the other one, when pressed, as she was, admitted that she was not sure if the United Kingdom was in Disneyland or Disneyworld ....
Sooooo ....
Is that what?
Is that PATRIOTISM gone bad?
Is that excessive religiosity come to the fore?
Or is it that as a nation, we aren't really patriotic or religious ....
WE'RE JUST PLAIN ******* STOOOOOOPID ....
We know how to shop ....
But that is really all we know ...
Which is how we ended up with George W. Bush as our war leader, and a war in IRAQINAM against nothing, which we still can't win after five years?
CAN A STOOOOOOPID NATION SURVIVE?
Or is it just that we aren't patriotic enough ....
And so ...
People in here, and this is not directed at anyone, nor is it censure, always seem to feel that what they say is intuitively obvious, and thus, nothing quantitative or qualitative ever seems to be developed ....
It would be like me telling you to google for a definition of DEVOTION ...
GOOGLE is dynamic ...
Things never come up in the same order ....
And yet people will tell other people to GOOGLE something to see what it is that they meant when they said something ....
In response to which I am going to say that we as a ntion over here seem to be very immature, to the point of sucking our thumb ....
This is something that I noticed when I got back to here from Viet Nam ....
In another thread where you were, I made posts on the Assyrians as Christians, and in the Wikipedia articles I posted from, it clearly stated that the Assyrians could trace THEIR christianity BACK TO CHRIST ....
That is 2,000 years, Arneoker ....
On Jay Leno one time, he went to a college graduation somewhere and asked two young women where the United Kingdom was ....
The smarter of the two, realizing that she didn't have a clue, did the right thing to do in that case while on TV - she deferred to the other one ....
And the other one, when pressed, as she was, admitted that she was not sure if the United Kingdom was in Disneyland or Disneyworld ....
Sooooo ....
Is that what?
Is that PATRIOTISM gone bad?
Is that excessive religiosity come to the fore?
Or is it that as a nation, we aren't really patriotic or religious ....
WE'RE JUST PLAIN ******* STOOOOOOPID ....
We know how to shop ....
But that is really all we know ...
Which is how we ended up with George W. Bush as our war leader, and a war in IRAQINAM against nothing, which we still can't win after five years?
CAN A STOOOOOOPID NATION SURVIVE?
Or is it just that we aren't patriotic enough ....
And so ...
We do have a long way to go to make the Union Perfect. However, we would be leaders, need be carefull that we don't blame the victim. Political discourse could involve more Adult Education.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 05:51 PM)
Livyjr, I'm getting a lot of hostile sounding comments directed at me from you and I'm uncertain how to read the situation.
I would appreciate it if you select specific assertions that I've made to rebut.
I would appreciate it if you select specific assertions that I've made to rebut.
rla, you are conjuring here ...
You read in "hostility" where there is not hostility ...
But hey, conjure away ...
rla, I did not start this thread to have it be a debate ...
I started it because I felt like a lot of other people in America feel, and I did not want to sit there on INDEPENDENCE DAY and say nothing about how I felt and why that was so ...
So this thread was totally spontaneous ...
IT SIMPLY HAPPENED ...
And now, somehow, you have tried to turn it into a debate on something, and now I have to rebut you .....
WELL I DON'T ...
I retain the option of agreeing with you ....
And I similarly retain the option of quitting and walking away ...
And I retain the option of ignoring you ...
But I won't ....
You seem to want to make this into a contest that you then have to win ...
So, okay, YOU WON ...
By default ....
And if you are perceiving hostility BOILING OFF of me, it's probably because it is ...
HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT I HAVE HAD A GUTFUL OF THIS TOTALLY STOOOOOPID IRAQINAMI WAR?
I am ...
Everytime I hear of more people getting killed over there, then that is what occupies my mind ...
SITUATIONAL GRAVITY, rla ...
You get sucked in by the gravity of the situation and then I am back in Viet Nam, ONE MORE ******* TIME, ALL OVER AGAIN, AS IF NO TIME HAD PASSED AT ALL ...
But ...
You're not ....
And there we are, rla ...
You're theory ...
And I'm stuck in a ******* reality of over 30 years ago now, because we are REGRESSING in this country ...
And I am pissed off ...
So if I sound HOSTILE, well, hey ....
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 05:20 PM)
Some mighty potent Oratory there Livyjr.
And while we are on the subject of conjuring, rla ...
How on earth did you conjure my response to CO all the way up into being "mighty potent oratory"?
Talk about a phrase that is pregnant with meaning or overtone, or whatever ....
I was merely making conversation with CO .....
I certainly wasn't imagining myself as Cicero trying to take down Catilina or something like that ...
I was saying things as I see them ...
And then you come in with that statement that I still can't understand about evangelicals on the right-wing and such and such ...
Really, rla ....
All I am in here is a grown-older version of that kid who sat in that kindergarten class that day and got told that I wasn't there to fool around, and so, I didn't to the best of my ability ...
And now, I'm here 57 years later saying "WHAT THE ****?"
And nobody seems to know down here in America ....
We're all too busy shopping ...
But CO is an older lady now ...
And she is up there in Canada where life is slower ...
And she is simple like me ....
And we're somewhat sympatico, if I might presume on CO that way ...
So I talk to CO, rla ....
I don't orate at her ...
I don't speechify to her ...
She'd call me a total fool in a heartbeat if I tried to talk down to her ....
And that is a qualtiy that I admire in CO ....
I also admire that for as long as I have walked the earth, she has walked it longer, and for what I have seen, she has in many ways already felt ...
She is the daughter of someone who went off to war and never returned ...
I am someone who went off to war and similarly never returned ....
CO GROKS that ....
She don't try and kid me that she has a theory that will cure me of my ills ...
BUCK UP, sonny ...
That is what she says ...
That is what I need to hear ....
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 05:20 PM)
I think introducing the philosophy of Thomas Hobbs, at this time and place, is a tactic to dislodge any use of the concept of, "Social Contract" in any political discourse (whether the actor is aware of doing that or not).
And with all due respect to you, rla, I believe that you are DEAD WRONG about the U.S. Constitution and its possible relationship to the Declaration of Independence ...
The U.S. Constitution is the document that replaced the ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION ....
That is what it is ....
THAT IS ALL IT IS ....
It certainly is not a SOCIAL CONTRACT ...
It is supposed to be the balancing power BETWEEN THE INDIVIDUAL states ...
And that is all that it is ....
UNTIL GEORGE W. BUSH AND DICK CHENEY AND THE IGNORANT PORTION OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE COME ALONG AND PERVERTED IT ...
You want to know where the social contract is, rla?
Here is where it is in the Massachusetts state constitution:
The body politic is formed by a voluntary association of individuals: it is a social compact, by which the whole people covenants with each citizen, and each citizen with the whole people, that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good.
It is the duty of the people, therefore, in framing a constitution of government, to provide for an equitable mode of making laws, as well as for an impartial interpretation, and a faithful execution of them; that every man may, at all times, find his security in them.
That is the second and third sentence of the PREAMBLE ...
You will notice that it clearly talks about the INDIVIDUAL ...
Not the family unit ...
If an individual doesn't want to have a family, then the individual does not have to, at least in a LIBERAL state like Massachusetts ....
John Adams wrote those words ....
That is the same John Adams who didn't get along with Thomas Jefferson for all those years, and then did again as an old man .....
What I perceive, rla, is that YOU are trying to invent what we already have had here in the United States of America, at least where I am in one of the original 13 states, for over 200 years ...
And I don't want you re-invention ...
I don't have time to wait for your re-invention that is going to require the whole world to come to meeting after meeting after meeting to debate what personing is, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ........
What I want is the LAW back in MY community ...
If somebody in Bengladesh or Krizackistan or wherever don't have law over there, that is really not my problem ....
ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL ...
That is what that teacher meant when she said MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!
When I am perfect, then I can go out and make the world a perfect place ....
I don't think it can be stated any simpler than that ....
I'm sick of DEMAGOGUES ....
George W. Bush is a DEMAGOGUE who was put there BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE and for that, the world has SUFFERED .....
Trusting the American people then, about anything, at this juncture, is a damn risky business .....
The American people were totally content to be lied to by their leader, so long as they could keep shopping, and now, older folks like me have the choice of freezing first or starving first but suffering either way ....
WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU SEE TO DEBATE IN ANY OF THAT, rla?
That it was not BAD JUDGMENT on the part of the American people that has saddled us with a TOTAL FOOL as the leader of this nation?
COULD IT REALLY HAVE BEEN GOD?
If you said yes, I would actually agree with you on that point ....
GOD put George W. Bush in power here in America in order to destroy America for having the unmitigated gall to go over to IRAQINAM and start murdering women and children in HIS name, with that SLAUGHTER being cheered on all the time by the people of America ....
There is where we would have common ground, rla, in that thought ....
Or sentiment ....
Or whatever it is ....
And so ....
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 06:13 PM)
We do have a long way to go to make the Union Perfect.
However, we would be leaders, need be carefull that we don't blame the victim.
Political discourse could involve more Adult Education.
However, we would be leaders, need be carefull that we don't blame the victim.
Political discourse could involve more Adult Education.
And who is the VICTIM here, rla?
Not somebody who is older than 18 years old, and that is for certain ....
Not somebody serving in the U.S. military ....
If there are victims, it will be people just like me ...
Old people ....
Old people with NO PROTECTION of law ....
Old people with no food ....
Old people who are going to have no heat this winter ....
And I don't believe that I have been blaming them for that ....
For getting old and not being rich ....
If I have, then I would have been mistaken and wrong .....
But I don't think that I have done ....
And so ...
Surviving the Fourth of July
By Chris Hedges
I survive the degradation that has become America—a land that exalts itself as a bastion of freedom and liberty while it tortures human beings, stripped of their rights, in offshore penal colonies, a land that wages wars defined under international law as criminal wars of aggression, a land that turns its back on its poor, its weak, its mentally ill, in a relentless drive to embrace totalitarian capitalism. Continue
By Chris Hedges
I survive the degradation that has become America—a land that exalts itself as a bastion of freedom and liberty while it tortures human beings, stripped of their rights, in offshore penal colonies, a land that wages wars defined under international law as criminal wars of aggression, a land that turns its back on its poor, its weak, its mentally ill, in a relentless drive to embrace totalitarian capitalism. Continue
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 7 2008, 10:32 PM)
Surviving the Fourth of July
By Chris Hedges
..... in a relentless drive to embrace totalitarian capitalism ....
By Chris Hedges
..... in a relentless drive to embrace totalitarian capitalism ....
There is exactly where it is at ....
We have become a MERCANTILE REPUBLIC ....
No longer a REPUBLIC OF BY AND FOR THE "PEOPLE" ....
Our state constitution here in New York has been eviserated and shredded in aid of that endeavor ...
The law courts, including the federal district court in the state capital have been closed in our faces .....
Protection from the law is sold by powerful politicians and is enforced by the state police and the courts ....
TOTALITARIAN CAPITALISM ....
There's the word for it, alright ....
And the "people" are cool with it, so long as it keeps providing them with new and better lit venues in which to do their shopping ....
You can never have enough new outfits and shoes, after all ....
And who needs LIBERTY ...
Freedom to shop til you drop is a better thing all the way around ....
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 11:30 AM)
The need for a Person-centered, Community-based, Nationally Guaranteed and Internationally Sanctioned Social System has finally become Obvious to just about everybody.
rla, you make this statement in here, and I am trying to figure it out on many different levels ....
But the main sticking point right now is your assertion "HAS FINALLY BECOME OBVIOUS TO JUST ABOUT EVERBODY" .....
And that has me wondering who "everybody" really is ....
And when these discussions took place ....
And how that determination was made - the OBVIOUSNESS of this "need" ....
There are 300 million people in the USA alone, and I took a straw poll among them, and nobody that I polled had ever heard of this need, nor did they even have a clue as to what the polling question was about ....
HUH!
That was the response that I got some 94% of the time with no discernable margin for error ....
Quite a few of the respondents accused me of being on drugs or having been drinking ....
A couple outright called me a lunatic ....
One thought that it was a kind of "pick-up" attempt ....
So I am assuming based on all of that that you are talking about a conference of some kind of professionals, or else the DEMOCRAT party, or a steering committee of the DEMOCRAT party, or an executive committee .....
Some people mentioned that it sounded like a new Communist Manifesto was in the works here, but I'm not sure since you have identified yourself as a Democrat in here ....
The problem, rla, is that it seems you are going to try and impose this system of yours on people, either without them knowing, or by force or fiat, or whatever ....
And that is your main gripe with religiosity, as I understand it - this thing of IMPOSING ....
What am I missing here, rla?
And so ....
Livyjr. I think all rla is saying in his own jargon here is that we as a nation (and really any nation) needs to be based on mutual concern for the welfare of everyone. That the common good be our first priority. For instance some people like to talk about "freedom", and you addressed it in this thread as the code language among some meaning the "freedom" to do whatever they want to to others with no restictions. Ie; the "freedom" to IMPOSE their will on others.
There is another kind of "freedom" that is meant by those with a certain agenda. They like to talk about their devotion to the concept of "freedom", but what they really mean is that not only should they and their powerful friends be "free" to get richer and more powerful at everyone elses expense, but that those affected by thier "doings" and "imposings" should be "free" to starve to death for example.
Just some thoughts.
There is another kind of "freedom" that is meant by those with a certain agenda. They like to talk about their devotion to the concept of "freedom", but what they really mean is that not only should they and their powerful friends be "free" to get richer and more powerful at everyone elses expense, but that those affected by thier "doings" and "imposings" should be "free" to starve to death for example.
Just some thoughts.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 03:16 PM)
The way I look at it, the 13 original states and Texas have, for a short period of time existed as Sovergn States.
Ratifying the Constitution gave up any claim to Sovergnity to the National Government.
As an administrative procedure, the National Government assigns State Citizenship of one's state of residence.
Ratifying the Constitution gave up any claim to Sovergnity to the National Government.
As an administrative procedure, the National Government assigns State Citizenship of one's state of residence.
NO, rla ....
Not at all ...
The national government does not ASSIGN me jack-****, and especially my citizenship in any state .....
Despite anything to the contrary the TYRANT JINGO George W.(hack job) Bush might have to say about it, this is not ancient Athens where some TYRANT can simply re-arrange MY LIFE and assign me to a "tribe" for some political reasons of his ...
Because when the national government can administratively "ASSIGN" me something, then they have the concurrent power to administratively take something back away from me regarding my citizenship here in America by a mere administrative act ...
OR TO DENY IT TO ME ALTOGETHER ....
The 14th Amendment is not an ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURE ....
Rather, it recognizes WHAT ALREADY IS ...
Ratifying the Constitution DID NOT give up sovereignty ....
Article IV of the U.S. Constitution states clearly and succinctly in Section 1 that:
Section 1. Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
The 13 original states did not cease to exist as sovereign states when the U.S. Constitution was ratified ....
James "Jemmy" Madison specifically came to New York to discuss that aspect in one of his Federalist Papers ....
Section 4 of Article IV of the United States Constitution is even more explicit in that regard, to wit:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
Without being hostile to you in any way in here, rla, and without attempting to insult you or intimidate you in any way, it is directly relevant to this thread at this time especially to inquire of you as to how your knowledge of our form of government here in the United States of America became so skewed ....
And I ask that because I think in my experience, less than a 1/2% of the people in America even have a clue that this is a Constitutional Republic with state constitutions defining our rights, and here I must include lawyers in New York State that I have discussed this matter with .....
They in fact seem to be the most ignorant of all ....
And I have to state that just about everything in here concerning government and constitutions that I talk about came to me in about an hour's worth of that first day in kindergarten way back when ....
So it is painfully obvious to me that we all did not get the same kind of teaching here in America ....
And so ...
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