TROU, thank you for being here this morning ....

BUT ...

Think about what you are saying here, in the context of all that has already been stated here in this thread specifically ...

AND AREN'T YOU REALLY TALKING ABOUT "UPBRINGING", TROU?

I was taught all of what you are stating above here on the first day of kindergarten by an ADULT ...

Supposedly, we all in here are adults .....

ISN'T THIS AN ADULT CONCEPT THAT YOU ARE STATING, TROU?

And I am not in any way mocking you or baiting you ....

You have too good a head on your shoulders for that stupid exercise on my part ...

AND ...

YOU HAVE DEFINED WHAT I THINK IS GROUND ZERO IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD ....

How can somebody, anybody for that matter, who claims to have gotten out of high school not know any of what you have just stated above here?

And as a thought exercise, when do you think that you actually "knew" this to be so?

Just now when you made your post?

Did it just come to you in a flash?

Or have you recalled something?

And so ...

And TROU, in response to your post, I bring back this prior one of mine to reinforce my points about these being supposedly ADULT concepts THAT NOBODY in the United States of America who is over 18 is supposed to be ignorant of ....

Now, given that what you are saying about MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE and the SALE OF PROTECTION FROM THE LAW is TRUE here in America ...

Haven't some people then "slipped" their training?

OR ....

Is it possible that some people in America are "schooled" in a much different way than you or I?

Earlier in here, I challenged Indianhead and he came back and stated emphatically that "MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT!" ...

Now, like me, IH is a SKEWED part of the statistical model, because he is a product of war, as am I ....

So in a lot of ways, we must be excluded from the "sample population" in here ....

IH might have learned in HS that "might was indeed right", and then in Viet Nam he might have got schooled in an opposite way of thinking, which then stuck with him to this day ....

I got schooled in "might does not make right" when I was young, myself, and that was by my parents, at a very early age, and it was in respect to my relationship with my younger and smaller brothers ... ....

When I was in the 5th grade, there was a big bully who was pretty much full-grown then, and because of that physical power he had, he believed in MIGHT MADE RIGHT, which gave him the right to torture me every day, because I was smaller than he, and weaker physically ...

And "tattling" on him to the teachers was a worthless exercise in futility, because all they would do was to tell him to keep his hands to home, and afterwards, my torture would be worse for having been a "tattle-tale" ...

So one day, on the way out to the playground and my daily torture session, I got just far enough ahead of him so that I would have time to hit the crash bar on the exit door and slip out and slam it back in his face, which I did, because of prior planning on my part ...

And when he had to hit the crash bar to open the door, his hands of necessity had to be down by his waist, where the crash bar was located, and in that instant, my small puny weak fist came sailing through the air like a striking snake and I caught him dead center of mass right in the middle of his pumpkin head, which rocked him back and the door closed again, and I danced back out of range, and when he came storming through the door after me, I was ready to hit him a second time, because I had lost my fear of him and his "MIGHT MAKES RIGHT" mantra ...

So he went off after other victims and never ****** with me again after that ....

A young psychologist one time asked me who I would have been if I had not of gone to Viet Nam, and all I could do in return was to look at him like he just came down from Mars .....

IF I HAD BEEN BORN RICH, TO POLITICALLY POWERFUL PARENTS LIKE GEORGE W. BUSH, WOULD I HAVE BEEN LIKE HIM?

I think, TROU, that depending upon OUR individual upbringing, and the adults that we associate with when young, that we can be taught ARROGANCE ....

I think that that can be and is reinforced in our school systems here in America, especially today ....

I have studied "peoples" and "societies" in the world for the last 30 or so years that I have been back here from Viet Nam, in an attempt to figure out "WHAT IT IS THAT IS HAPPENING HERE" ....

To TRY AND MAKE THAT CLEAR ...

And I come back to that saying by Jesus the REBEL that many are called and few end up being chosen ....

The Parable of the workers ....

Those kinds of things ....

One of the best exchanges in the Bible, in my estimation, that is relevant to what we are talking about in here right now is from Matthew or Mark, is the scene when they are in the boat, and Jesus is out walking around on the water, and I believe it is WEAK WHINING Peter who tries it and sinks like a stone ...

WHY DO WE HAVE LIFE, TROU?

If you ask that question of a lot of people, they will tell you that after life on this earth, or "down here" as I always call it, that there is NOTHING afterwards, just blackness, or something like that ....

OBLITERATION, maybe ....

But logically, those are all something ....

So there is more than just "nothing" awaiting us ....

Sooo ....

WHY DO WE HAVE LIFE IN THE FIRST PLACE, TROU?

Isn't this kind of an elaborate "stage setting", just to have it all be about "nothing" but grabbing all the GUSTO you can right now, because when you are dead, you are just dead?

Just some thoughts in return ...

And keep in mind that when I was wounded the first time in Viet Nam, that I was left for dead because of the severity of my wounds ....

So where did I go then?

Tramalfador?

Mars?

And so ....

I don't think for a minute you need to be reminded of what some people are capable of justifying to themselves. All it takes is constant lying to others and then to oneself, and eventually we are in a maze... a labyrinth made up of those lies. Yes you are right... we should have been taught these basic concepts of mutual regard for each other as children, if we were "brought up" right. Certainly by the time one is out of high school we should know that we must be concerned about the effects of our actions on others. Some people though were either not brought up right, or became twisted somewhere along the way and became sociopathic. Ie; they don't care one witt what happens to others due to their actions as long as they "get theirs".

That is why we have the sad neccesity of passing laws against harming others, and needs continual updating. People should not have to be told by law not to prey on or harm others, but enough do that we need to keep restricting liberty by bits and pieces. It is always a sign of the failure of "Upbringing" in a society the more laws they have. But it has gone much further Livyjr. There are now whole "institutions" and foundations funded by very wealthy sociopaths, to wordcraft lies that have mass appeal to otherwise decently brought up people to; "justify" getting rich by and while harming others, by using words and concepts like; "strict construction", "freedom" and "heritage" and "enterprise"... etc.

So something that should be obvious to everyone now has become a matter of political battles where otherwise well meaning people vote unwittingly for evil. Harsh statement I know, but it is where I think we are, and until the popular lies can be unraveled... until Theseus can slay the Minotaur and follow Ariadne's thread out of the Labyrinth, we will continue to fight each other while "the devil laughs with delight".

Just some very old thoughts.

[quote name='Livyjr' date='Jul 8 2008, 12:01 PM' post='860215']
NO, rla ....

Not at all ...

The national government does not ASSIGN me jack-****, and especially my citizenship in any state .....


Ria

No offense intended, but your statements on state sovereignty are just plain off the wall.
The federal government doesn't assign sovereignty. State sovereignty is an important feature in our system of constitutional government. Take a look at the 10th Amendment and the Supreme Court jurisprudence interpreting the meaning of that Amendment.

And in an allegedly "civilized and educated modern world", how can that lying to oneself even take place?

Good morning, Snuf ...

And thanks for being a STRONG-WILLED WOMAN and coming in here to DEFEND my RIGHTS for me this morning ...

I will take the liberty of chiding you a bit, however, for telling rla to go look for something ....

Perhaps it is wiser, Snuf, to SHOW us all instead, by bring in the 10th Amendment, as follows:

Tenth Amendment - Reserved Powers

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Because for some "civilized" is merely a thin vaneer or a ruse or pose to avoid being exposed for what they really are. A matter of manners and image. They put it on like a suit and tie and look quite respectable. They use their "intelligence" and "education" to convince large numbers of people they care about what their actions show they clearly don't care about. They come up with "patriotic sounding" concepts like "Shock and Awe" and don't count the dead as they invade other countries in order to loot and plunder and torture. But because they wear a flag lapel pin they put an American face-mask over what most Americans would otherwise never stand for. It is because we trust our leaders to be decent, because we Americans are good people at heart, that we can have such terrible things occur. When our leaders wrap themselves in our flag, we find it hard to believe they could profane such sacred symbols.

MARTIAL MORALITIES

Martial morality has always been a required discipline in Chinese martial arts society.

Before you learn any martial techniques, you should first understand this subject.

In Chinese martial arts society, it is well known that a student's success is not determined by his (her) external appearance, nor by how strong or weak he (she) is, but rather by the student's way of thinking, and his (her) morality.

Chinese martial artists have a saying: "A student will spend three years looking for a good teacher, and a teacher will test a student for three years."

A wise student realizes that it is better to spend several years looking for a good teacher than to spend the time learning from a mediocre one.

A good teacher will lead you to the right path, and will help you to build a strong foundation for your future training.

In addition, good teachers will always set a good example for their students with their spiritual and moral virtue.

Good martial arts teachers do not teach only martial techniques, they also teach a way of life!

- Yang, Jwing-Ming

VIET NAM ALL OVER AGAIN ....

WE GET FOOLED ALL THE TIME ...

And the flag is not a sacred symbol of anything ....

It's just a piece of cloth ...

Or some synthetic fiber these days ....

Mostly made in China ...

Cheaper labor over there, what, what ....

AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ....

As a child, TROU, did you have a full vocabulary when you went to kindergarten?

I certainly didn't ....

But I could assimilate SYMBOLS ....

It is like that old country song about the soldier in Korea with the deck of cards in church ....

What is that - MNENOMICS?

I show you a symbol, and you can then associate that symbol with something that is conceptual, like a REPUBLIC?

A certain number of bars STANDS for something else ....

A certain number of STARS stands for something else ....

When I was young, the flag had forty-eight stars on it, BY THEN ...

One time, it only had thirteen ...

It had 48, because in the United States of America, there was a LAWFUL PROCESS for adding more stars, which represented individual states ....

OUR JOB AS CHILDREN WAS TO LEARN AND UNDERSTAND THE LAWFUL PROCESS SO THAT WE COULD FUNCTION AS CITIZENS OVER HERE ...

WE ESPECIALLY WERE TO LEARN WHAT "LAWFUL" WAS ALL ABOUT, SO THAT WE WOULD NOT BECOME LIKE THE THEN-DEFEATED GERMANS, WHO HAD TO WEAR DUNCE CAPS, BECAUSE THEY FAILED TO LEARN WHAT LAWFUL REALLY WAS ALL ABOUT, SO THAT A BUNCH OF AMERICANS FINALLY HAD TO GO OVER THERE AND GIVE THEM A DOSE OF "SCHOOLING" TO BRING THE CONCEPT BACK TO THEM ...

And now we are the next GERMANY ...

George W. Bush is now OUR Hitler ....

And like the GOOD GERMANS, back then, the GOOD AMERICANS of today CHEER our George on in his conquest of the world ....

LEBENSRAUM and the UBERMENCH ...

The CYCLE goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on ....

And so ...

The American people are good at heart? Bush is a two term President. Thats like saying the German people were not responsible for WW2. It was just that Hitler guy.

The instruction, "to Google for a definition of Devotion would be a better instruction if it
were Goggle for an understanding of Definitions and how they evolve and look at some examples
of defining Devotion and Patriotism.

Hold it right there my friend... I know you don't mean that the way it came out but the Americans didn't fight that GD war alone. In fact, until December 7th 1941 the Americans continued to trade with those B*****ds while Allied countries were fighting and dying to hold back the advance of Hitler and his henchmen. From September of 1939 to December 1941 we fought alone.

No question, the fact that Americans joined the fight and took command in many theatres once the Japanese made it necessary to engage in that war, and without them the battle might well have ended differently, the anointing of Americans as the sole defenders of law and humanity in that conflict gets this old dame's hackles up and always has.

There are a lot of allied graves in those countries of those who died in battle in that abomination long before Americans entered the fray. They deserve recognition as well as the American saviours who came to the rescue eventually.

The land that gave the world Geothe and Beethoven allowed its National Archetypes to be possessed by the deepest evil.

All I am saying is that the people of a country are ultimatly responsible for what their country does in their name. We, as citizens of the US, have forgotten that assumption. Its like its all Bush's fault that we invaded and occupied Iraq. Well we are all paying the price now for letting him do it. Bad leadership has consequences. The $600 billion in borrowed money to finance the Iraq war is in part to blame for the falling dollar. $4 a gallon for gas? Look at your decisions in the voting booth.

In our US of A, you don't have to have a ticket from God to celebrate the 4th of July. I have more admiration for you, Livyjr, as a person I have met in cyberspace, than any other example of the Human Race. I am glad to partake in your output and I hope you will continue to partake in mine.
I agree with everything you have said above except those slight insinuations about rla's chararacter

I think it is interesting to note a New Yorker defending States Rights against a displaced Georgian
in Arkansas.

Yes we are all as a people ultimately responsible for what is done in our name. And people who mean well can cause terrible harm. The spirit of America is good and kind. Of that I have no doubt, but we like any other people can be led down a garden path by those clever and determined enough to do so. Lincoln said; "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time..."

The question remains if you can fool enough of the people enough of the time to accomplish the destruction of our Republic?

There's that, "Booger Man, Evil" again.

What would you call it?

And you don't see a parallel here TRoU ? This sentence alone underlines and emphacizes what this thread is all about. Patriotism ? Its a dangerous concept when it justifies anything. Moderation in all things is of paramount importance. Liberty gives us all that right. Failure to exercise that right judiciously is the solemn responsibility of every citizen. WE ARE our governments. We select them.



Don't have a stroke David. We finally agree on something.

I totally agree Betty, but thirty second sound bytes as a substitute for news and public discourse does not mean the heart of a people is evil, just misinformed. Later comes denial, and then complicity from fear. Where do you think we are as a people along that line?

How do we get to know who, what, how, when, where and why we are? Be quiet and listen, be positive and gentle with yourself while you seek information, expect the best and be prepared
for the worst...It will come to you because you are naturally in process of becomming...

I think the issue of to what degree we are a Republic and to what degree we are a Democracy
has always been with us. Our evolutionary movement has been from relatively more Republic
to relativly more Democracy. As Globilization procedes, the other Nations of the world will
have more and more difficulty in dealing with 50 separate states along with the other actual
states in the Americas. You see what happens when we send some one out to represent us
who is totally "Texan."

Nor were all of the German people evil TRoU. A great number of them were no different than Americans are today. Misinformed and ignorant of what was being done in their name. Where are Americans today ?

Let's see..

Questioning if someone is "patriotic enough "

Condemning the lack of a flag pin on a lapel

Considering the worth of a man by the colour of his skin

Branding as "evil" those with whom they disagree or who don't conform to their guidelines of how one should live or be governed

An enlightened people willing to interact with those with whom they disagree? You tell me where Americans are.

I see your point but I honestly think we are at a considerably different place than where the Germans were at the time of Hitler. But I say that very far from any feelings of smugness. There is certainly a lot of jingoism and racism in this country. And a lot of people, whether they are racist or not, simply want to deny that. IMHO you can see evidence of that on this forum, with some apparently thinking that racism is a much smaller problem in this country than unjustified accusations of racism.

How do you argue with that? But first people have to understand it. We are all becoming something while we live in spacetime, but you are right we need to be positive and gentle with ourselves, and expecting the best while being capable of dealing with the worst is good advice anytime and anywhere.

But before this conversation takes on the aura of a dialogue between sages, let me say up front if you could see the mess I have made of my life, you would know I am certainly not one. Most of us are in a daily struggle to deal with what life throws at us (so to speak). When we have mastered living enough that most problems are dealt with relatively easily, then we have the time to look for root causes that affect the common weal. And then if we are wise and good we may seek to help at least by informing ourselves well enough to vote wisely, and some become public spirited enough to run for office to try and serve a greater number of our fellows. And none of that justifies becoming a liar for hire, but whole groups of professional liars make a good living in America, and though they represent a tiny minority among the vast majority of decent folk, their influence is magnified by the megaphone handed them by those who have consolidated the Media. And so the question is asked and somewhat answered as to who, and how, and why. The questions that remain unanswered are "When" will we see "Where" we are going, and "What' will we do about it "Then"?

Just some thoughts.

I certainly do not wish to turn your thread into a debate. I generally see this as talking about talking.
However, our mode of discussion allows for as much debate about related topics as one desires
unless you say it is not related to the topic of the thread.

Politically? In the Gutter... but some are looking at the stairs. If we can reestablish a healthy "Public Discourse" we have a chance to dissapate the fog of evil. Yes rla and CO I said "evil". Evil as defined by me does not apply to those who merely disagree with me, and I know that in the dark recesses of my own heart there can abide my own. The "evil" I am talking about is that which seeks the destruction of the "good". Good here being defined as what would be considered by most reasonable and decent people as a "common good" for as many people as possible. Therefore that which not only stands against a healthy and fair "Public Discourse", but seeks to enshroud what little of it there is with lies, I would term as "evil".

No, I mean blaming the dumb public for being dumb.

And why should they get a FREE RIDE, rla ....

I DON'T ...

WHAT IS THEIR EXCUSE?

I wasn't given one ....

How come they were?

This is about establishing "ground", rla ....

Which is exactly the same thing as you are saying above here, so we have common ground on that aspect of things ...

And yes, the horizon in many ways is the limit, so long as there is a horizon, otherwise it is just a babble of jargon in here ...

So of necessity, it is about talking ....

Or discussing, as I like to think of it ....

Chatting back and forth ....

Hey!

Where are we going, anyway ....

This is some of the difference between your "style", and the "style" of TROU ....

TROU is more of a laid-back DISCUSSANT in here ....

TROU will be assertive at times, but more often tends to draw others out and into further dialogue ....

You are much more tentative or reserved or something, anyway ...

Combative, maybe ....

Except above here, where you are pretty down-to-earth and human ....

I was asking you about bush-hogging to try and draw out some information from you about like and love and devotion ...

I like to rake, myself ...

I don't use motorized equipment, as a rule ....

I don't like the disturbance to the quiet that the noise of them makes ...

But that is just me talking ....

Do I "LOVE" to rake?

Well, that is probably too strong a word, but I sure do like it ...

What I do love is the clean smell of the air out in the woods, that you can only really appreciate if you are not polluting it with the fumes of an internal combustion engine ...

I love being out on the land, always have ....

John Adams did too, I am told ....

Maybe for you, bush-hogging is just another pain-in-the-@$$ task associated with home ownership ....

But you could still be devoted to it ....

You would be devoted to it because it enhances your property values in YOUR mind ....

Me, I am devoted to preserving the land as I found it ....

And there is an exceedingly selfish motive in that for me ...

As a disabled person, that land sustains me ....

So you don't eat your seed corn and you don't foul your own nest ....

And love does not enter into that equation ...

Common sense and survival do ....

And so ....

But stay, rla ....

It certainly would be less in here without your presence ....

And bring out your human side some more, rla ...

The one who bakes turkey breasts ....

And so ...

QUOTE(rla @ Jul 7 2008, 11:30 AM) The need for a Person-centered, Community-based, Nationally Guaranteed and Internationally Sanctioned Social System has finally become Obvious to just about everybody.

The question open for discussion is, How?

I'm sorry, but this is not obvious to me. Moreover, the thought of it is repugnant to me on a par with the need for a New World Order and the Global Economy.

The cat, CO, is a master of the art of YEAH, RIGHT!

A cat can look at you and say that, and it is quite clear and humbling what the cat is saying and why ....

The cat is the master of DISDAIN ....

Can you imagine trying to teach IDEOLOGY to a cat?

Or get a cat to regurgitate DOGMA?

Can you indoctrinate a cat?

That is what I like about cats ...

The dog, on the other hand, will accept your endless preaching, and then it might lick your face - "YEAH, IT'S OKAY!"

You can't teach DOGMA to a dog any easier than you can to a cat, but the dog is less disdainful of your effort ....

The dog perhaps has more compassion for fools ....

I don't think the cat has any, myself ....

But who on earth can ever tell what a cat is really thinking ....

And a lot of the time, they are curled up and sleeping anyway ....

So all you're getting out of them then is just a bunch of cat dreams ....

And how do you ever begin to interpret the dreams of a cat into a philosophical discussion like this is ....

And so ....

I just thought that it would be a grounding kind of experience for rla to take a week and try to teach his system to a bunch of dogs and cats ....

Character-building ....

It's always important in life ....

Not that rla necessarily needs more ...

It's just that you can never really have enough ...

And so ....

I guess you're establishing some "ground", Snuf ....

REPUGNANT!

There is a word to add to our glossary in here ....

REPUGNANT: exciting distaste or aversion ...

- Webster's new Collegiate Dictionary

Call me an old-fashioned free-born American, but I find I tend towards your corner on this one, Snuf ....

And so ...

And while you are here, Snuf ...

By way of a thought exercise ....

Would you say that that was your patriotism talking there ....

Or is it your nationalism?

Or could it be your personhood?

This was the post that perhaps set me off, rla ....

If I could have been said to have been set off in a way that would have me personally demonstrating hostility towards your ideas in here ....

I think that I am just now perhaps understanding that you are not proposing a BOSS-ISM system here ....

OR AM I WRONG?

BINGO, TROU!

Janus, perhaps ...

What ultimately was the fate of Galileo?

And picadilly ....

While I have you on the line in here ....

WHOSE thought pattern really was it with respect to the concept of NATURAL LAW that was expressed in the 1776 Declaration of Independence?

I don't mean whose hand held the pen ...

I mean the source of the philosophy ...

ASTUTE, picadilly ...

And COGENT ..

The DEATH of a line of thought ...

PRO-SURVIVALISTS will not sacrifice the future for their own present well-being ....

CONTRA-SURVIVALISTS will work to maintain their present level of comfort or increase it, without regard to the future, or even awareness that there always is one, regardless ....

As a part-time venture, the year my step-son was an exchange student (Jr. in high school) in Germany, my wife and I leased our home, seven acres on the side of a mountain that I had invested a lot of myself in, and made the down payment on a rundown Mobil Home Park and
RV Park on Lake Hamilton--moving into one of the rental mobile homes. You could say this was
applied social science, being the "Lord" of this subset of, "Trying-to-make-it Persons, in a roting down town that was still trying to overcome the loss of open illegal gambling and catering to Leaders of Organized crime. We have a tourist attraction Museum about it. But getting back to raking...this
old dude who lived on Lake Michigan spent the winters in a small travel trailer at our park and loved to rake leaves. He kept all the leaves raked, free and he was 82 years old. He was up at daylight, fished every morning, raked leaves or some other hobby till dark and went square dancing three nights a week. I also like being close to the earth...at one period of life, I did quite a bit of gardening. Now I have two tomato plants.

BINGO!, Arneoker ....

BUT ....

Not in the United States of America you are not ...

That is a TEXT-BOOK definition of MISPLACED PATRIOTISM that you have just provided us with here ....

There are 300 MILLION other human beings right here in the United States of America ...

And I am not professing love or devotion to them in here ....

"ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU, ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY!"

That doesn't mean loving those people, or being devoted to them ...

My country is where I live ...

Loving it and being devoted to it means that I refrain from ******* it up by my actions or by my GREED for anything ....

If I love somebody who is here, or if I have devotion to them, it is because they are worthy of it ....

I sure don't love some child rapist just because they happen to be here along with me ....

I am not devoted to murderers who are also American citizens ....

I don't love thieves ....

And Jesus never told me that I had to, either ...

Leave the dead to bury the dead is what he said ....

And now, it is up to me to interpreat that each day of my life ....

And so ...

Soooo ....

rla ....

Now talk to us of love and like and devotion in that context ....

And patriotism ...

Arneoker ....

That has always been true ....

That will always be true ....

And that has always been a cause for the death of nations ...

Which is why I was taught as a child to know better ....

And so ...

Thanks for pointing out, how, out of context, this statement can sound exactly opposite from how
I intended it. I talk so much about the importance of keeping goverental processes Bottoms-Up,
and in all other ways the individual Person interacts with the Social System, that I expected it
to be heard from that perspective. By Person-centered, I mean emanating from the individual
Person and by community-based, I mean located in the Person's Community and Managed by the Community.

You are provoking thought here, Arneoker ...

As you say ....

It might not be easy to understand or quantify ....

On another note then, why are DEMAGOGUES successful?

Or CAUDILLOS?

Could we possibly ever have CAUDILLOS here in the USA?

Caudillo

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Caudillo is a Spanish (caudilho in Portuguese) word designating "a political-military leader at the head of an authoritative power."

It is usually translated into English as "leader" or "chief," or, more pejoratively, "dictator" or "strongman."

Origin

The related caudillismo is a cultural phenomenon that first appeared during the early 19th century in revolutionary South America, as a type of militia leader with a charismatic personality and enough of a populist program of generic future reforms to gain broad sympathy, at least at the outset, among the common people.

Effective caudillismo depends on a personality cult.

The root of caudillismo lies in Spanish colonial policy of supplementing small cadres of professional, full-time soldiers with large militia forces recruited from local populations to maintain public order.

Militiamen held civilian occupations but assembled at regular times for drill and inspection.

Their salary from the Crown was a token; their recompense was in prestige, primarily because of the fuero militar ("military privilege"), that exempted them from certain taxes and obligatory community work assignments (compare the feudal corvée), and more significantly, exempted them from criminal or civil prosecution.

Away from colonial capitals, the militias were at the service of the criollo landowners.

Leadership

Charismatic image

Typically, the caudillos took it upon themselves to attain power over society and place themselves as its leader.

Caudillos were capable of commanding large numbers of people and holding the attention of large crowds with growing excitement.

In the late Roman Republic men like Gaius Marius, Julius Caesar and Octavian were populist commanders who had strong personal ties with their soldiers, and imagery of revived Roman values is often brought to bear in support of caudillismo.

A similar phenomenon in Italy from the 13th to the 16th century repeatedly brought the condottiere, the charismatic leader of a band of mercenaries, to power, when institutions of power temporarily failed.

Gaining of support

In the upheavals of the decades of revolution and its aftermath, leaders who were able to draw to themselves bands of loyal followers and keep them well armed and otherwise well cared for could assume the title of "general."

Caudillos began to attain this power in the course of the South American Wars of Independence, where the militias did much of the fighting and earned a heroic reputation.

The caudillos used their small armed bands to overthrow the vulnerable newly independent states in South America.

If these caudillos were not always welcome, also they were not generally publicly condemned.

Some were large landowners (hacendados) who sought to secure their private interests, but more typically they began as vigilantes keeping the local peace for the hacienda, then gained independence of action and developed an anti-oligarchic public stance and finished by supporting an acquiescent establishment that included the Catholic Church.

Government Structure

Since the caudillo typically held power by controlling a patronage network that brooked no rival structure, some caudillos took up an anti-clerical stand.

Many of the caudillos used their newly gained power, which was unchecked because it was extra-constitutional, to promote their own wealth and interests.

At the height of caudillismo, as in Venezuela, the national army was rendered superfluous by the personal armies of the caudillos: in 1872 Venezuela's federal troops were dismissed entirely.

Some Famous Caudillos

A few examples of powerful Caudillos in the Americas during the early 1800s include Juan Manuel de Rosas and Juan Facundo Quiroga in Argentina, Antonio López de Santa Anna in Mexico, José Rafael Carrera in Guatemala, and José Gaspar Rodríguez de Francia, "El Supremo," in Paraguay.

In Venezuela, a century of caudillismo was initiated with the 1848 coup of José Tadeo Monagas who ruled Venezuela in partnership with his brother, followed after the Federal War by the rule of Antonio Guzmán Blanco, but the tradition of caudillismo has lingered; after the coup by which the designated vice-president Juan Vicente Gómez overthrew the elected president, Gómez ruled Venezuela by his personal authority until his death.

Well-known later caudillos have included Gabriel García Moreno in Ecuador and Rafael Trujillo in the Dominican Republic.

The strongman with a military following who controls political developments continues to be an unsettling factor in Latin American societies.

The Spanish ruler Francisco Franco used from 1936 the title "Caudillo de España, por la gracia de Dios," echoing (as usual at that times) the titles "Führer" and "Il Duce."

English speakers are reluctant to use the term "caudillo," which they imagine must have pejorative connotations; in Spain, it resounded of the old warriors of history.

The word had already been used for key men like the Cid Campeador and, in retrospect, Viriathus.

Franco's contemporary Juan Domingo Perón, however, had to fight the connotation of the uncultivated Argentinian caudillos of the 19th century.

In spite of the nationalism of Peronism, the supporting press used the Anglicism líder (from English "leader").

The death of Cirilo Vázquez, a cacique from Acayucan, Veracruz, made headlines in newspapers in Mexico and the United States.

Final Comments

Caudillos are remembered with admiration in popular nationalist histories: Rosas rose from being one of the largest and most productive ranchers in the area; Santa Anna was Mexico's greatest military leader, as well as a tyrant, best known for his triumph at the Alamo; the Monagas brothers abolished slavery; Dr. Francia was a creole with an advanced law degree who used only three men in his leading of the country.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caudillo"

And that thought of "managed by the community" might well be what is provoking repugnance and hostility ....

You better perhaps define that part of the concept further ...

I sure don't need some "BROTHER'S KEEPERS" in here mucking with my life under the guise of "managing it" ....

What a boon to this thread you are, picadilly ...

We're having syrup poured on us all the time now ...

It, whatever it is, cuts both ways, Livyjr....according to the psychology of Kelly, called The
Psychology of Personal Constructs, a basic expression of hostility is trying to force one's
personal construct system into the communication with another. So I surely would not like
persons in the group to confuse my interest in building conceptual models with that motive.

I heard that some MUSLIM country was spending QUADRA-BILLIONS on a plan or scheme, or something, anyway, designed to take away our birthdays here in America ....

I think we should maybe pre-empt that with some kind of rocket/cruise missle attack on Iran ....

I don't think that it was actually Iran that was spending the money and doing the planning ....

But hey ....

Nobody already likes them here in America ...

So let's retaliate against them ....

It sure will boost TV ratings to have some more SHOCK & AWE to see on TV ....

George W. Bush raining down a storm of cruise missles on innocent womern and children in Tehran ....

And so ....