Not unless one can conceive of how Boss-ism can be both Humanitarian and Democratic.

Well said, rla ....

And point is taken ....

But of what use, truly, is a conceptual model to a life in dynamic environment where you are personally not in control of anything but yourself?

And what about love of raking and patriotism?

Is there a ZEN aspect to raking?

Is that why I like to do it?

Or am I overly nationalistic?

I love my country so much that I want it to be better raked than any other country out there in the world .....

And so ...

Hmmmmm ....

What about Caudillos, rla?

Is that a form of BOSS-IM?

I wouldn't want to imply that I thought Life was easy. Life is, in my opinion, very worth while.

And that is exactly what we are doing in here, rla ....

This is the PUREST FORM of that that I have ever encountered in my own life, anyway ....

This is the printing press of early-America personified in here ....

The pen mightier than the sword on a global scale ....

Us showing the candid world that we too deserve to be considered civilized, even though we are led by a fool who just may not be at all ...

And so ...

Me, too, rla ....

But I think that this is your humanistic side talking ...

Not necessarily your scientific side ....

And so ....

We did get fooled back in the Viet Nam times ....

I KNOW that I got fooled ....

But I didn't really realize the "FULLNESS" of it until I was actually there in Viet Nam, out in the firled, seeing what was actually going on ....

And there was no internet back then ...

COMMUNICATION was controlled, and we had no finger on any switch in that equation, at all .....

Now, we are getting fooled again, but we have the internet this time around ....

Having been there both times, I think that this is a very interesting experiment that is going on in here right now ....

Thank GOD for michael and CGCS is my thought ....

And I do ....

And so ....

On a few occasions I hire persons with big machines to do dirt work for me. Most of the time I do it with the front end loader and rock rake on the tractor(which is why my tractor looks like it wouldn't make it across the road). Sometimes I need to use a hand rake to finish something up and I think I rake better than your average bear, but fu** raking leaves if I can get someone else to do it. My friend from Michigan got high as a kite on it. I have a friend who dances through house cleaning in a very Zen like way.

Cicero is behind the concept of Natural Law, but depending on the school of propaganda and the school of thought one has gone through, many will say the Declaration draws upon the thoughts of John Locke, while others, like myself, won't bother arguing and think: Gottfried Leibniz.

Not a term I'm much acquainted with. I associate both with what is antithetical to humanitarian
constitutional democracy.

I don't, TROU ...

But then ....

That is just me talking here ....

And so ....

JULY 1965

Greene (Commandant of the United States Marine Corps) experienced conflicting feelings during the consultation with the (House Armed Services) committee members.

Sympathetic to his commander in chief in the April (1965) White House meetings, when LBJ seemed beseiged by opponents of the U.S. role in Vietnam, Greene was nonetheless "ASTOUNDED BY HOW FEW OF THE FACTS REGARDING THE SITUATION SEEMED TO BE KNOWN" to the people's representatives.

GREENE'S LOYALTY TO THE PRESIDENT AND RELUCTANCE TO CONTRADICT HIS COLLEAGUES (United States Military Joint Chiefs of Staff), HOWEVER, PREVENTED HIM FROM GIVING THE LEGISLATORS HIS FULL ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION.

Two hours after the meeting, he called John Blandford (House Armed Services Committee's chief counsel).

GREENE TOLD BLANDFORD WHAT HE DECLINED TO SAY IN THE MEETING.

THE UNITED STATES, GREENE SAID, WAS ON THE VERGE OF A "MAJOR WAR" THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY INVOLVE A MINIMUM OF FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND TROOPS.

THE WAR WOULD TAKE AT LEAST FIVE YEARS, AND THE UNITED STATES WOULD SUFFER A LARGE NUMBER OF CASUALTIES.

TO SET CONDITIONS FOR WINNING THE WAR, THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE TO UNDERTAKE AN "IMMEDIATE INTENSIFICATION" OF OPERATIONS AGAINST NORTH VIETNAM AND WITHIN SOUTH VIETNAM.

GREENE HAD GIVEN BLANDFORD PRIVATELY THE ASSESSMENT THAT THE CHIEFS HAD FAILED TO PROVIDE EITHER TO CONGRESS OR TO THE ADMINISTRATION.

WITH THE ADMINISTRATION DECEIVING THE PEOPLE AND CONGRESS ABOUT THE DEPTH OF THE AMERICAN MILITARY COMMITMENT IN VIETNAM, THE CHIEFS WERE IN A QUANDARY.

ALTHOUGH THE CONSTITUTION DESIGNATED THE PRESIDENT AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF OF THE MILITARY, EACH MEMBER OF THE JCS WAS SWORN TO "SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES."

THE CONSTITUTION CHARGED CONGRESS, AS REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLE, WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY TO DECIDE WHETHER TO DECLARE WAR.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THROUGH THEIR REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS, WERE TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOUTH VIETNAM'S "FREEDOM AND INDEPENDENCE" WAS WORTH THE COSTS AND RISKS.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GREENE (AND THEN ONLY IN PRIVATE TO A STAFF MEMBER), THE CHIEFS HAD DECIDED TO SUPPORT THEIR COMMANDER IN CHIEF BY MISREPRESENTING THEIR OWN ESTIMATES OF THE SITUATION IN VIETNAM.

GREENE FELT KEENLY THE TENSION BETWEEN LOYALTY TO THE PRESIDENT AND HIS RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND HAD CHOSEN A MIDDLE COURSE OF PUBLICLY SUPPORTING THE ADMINISTRATION WHILE PRIVATELY PROVIDING HIS ACTUAL VIEWS TO THE CONGRESS.

THE CHIEFS' OBLIGATIONS TO THEIR SOLDIERS, AIRMEN, SAILORS, AND MARINES COMPLICATED ALREADY CONFLICTING RESPONSIBILITIES.

AS AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN THE WAR DEEPENED, LYNDON JOHNSON REMAINED DETERMINED TO DEPICT THE WAR VERY DIFFERENTLY FROM THE WAY THAT GREENE HAD DESCRIBED IT.

- Pages 311,312, Dereliction of Duty - Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, AND THE LIES THAT LED TO VIET NAM by H.R. McMaster ......

I think there are no ifs, ands or butts about it.

I just posted on CAUDILLOS ....

And I am with you, here, on your second sentence ....

See how easy this chatting back and forth can be?

Beats debating, anyway ....

HEY!

Wanna have a good old-fashioned fist fight, just for the hell of it?

And so .....

Arrest, judged by an inquisition tribunal, denied further publication (censored)...

So, can you then reconcile the two sides?

Or aren't there?

Soooo ....

An attempt was made by one line of reasoning to stamp out another ....

And in the end, the one putting down the foot failed and disappeared, although may not have become totally extinct ....

What happened to his telescope?

Did they smash it all up into tiny pieces?

There are some, I think, who are in it just for the chance to smash something ....

I think that goes back to their childhoods, perhaps .....

But I don't have no solid data ....

Just observation ...

Anecdotal evidence, at best ....

And so ....

Ah, david ....

Welcome ...

And YES, indeed ...

A point that had to be made ....

Well done, david ....

And thanks for having the courage to make that necessary statement in here ....

SO LONG AS WE DO NOT TAR EVERYONE IN AMERICA WITH THAT SAME BRUSH ....

BUT ...

Still ....

Unless God did it ....

More than a minority had to do that voting ....

Or did they really?

And so ...

Just out of curiosity, david, of what generation are you, relatively speaking?

Around WWII, or much later?

Most certainly we did not, CO ...

And I never meant to imply so or to demean the efforts of any other people in ending that IDEOLOGY of FASCISM ...

I was in a context there ....

I was talking from the perspective of a five year old kid being told something in kindergarten ....

The people she was referring to were and had been very visible to me since I could perceive anything as a child ...

Women with severe nervous disorders who would never be right again ...

Men with no faces ...

Men with mis-shapen heads ....

Men with no arms and legs, who had to hang in a kind of bag down in the VA Hospital ...

My own father with a smashed ankle ....

Things that were very visible to a small kid back then, as signs of great sacrifice ....

There was no intent on my part to make it sound like America won that war alone ....

THE SOLE POINT WAS THAT WE HAD TO GO AT ALL ....

And that TOTAL BLAME was laid on ALL the GERMAN people, not just some of them ...

And I believe that they were some 80 MILLION strong back then ...

So it wasn't as if Hitler could have them all under his bootheel all at once ....

And so ....

There's always more than two sides of everything.

Which is something that is very conveniently covered or glossed over down here, CO ....

Thanks for being so vehement about it in here ....

George Herbert Walker is alleged to be one of those individuals ....

And so was his son-in-law, "Cottie" Bush who is the pappy to American president George Herbert Walker Bush ....

FDR supposedly caused some legal action against them that resulted in a permanent RANCOR down here in the USA between the REPUBLICANS and the DEMOCRATS ....

Many Americans admired the efficiency of the German fascists and believed that Germany would be the victor in Europe, and so, wanted to be on the side of the winner ....

Just BID-NESS, after all ....

PROFITS UBER ALLES ....

And so ...

No they didn't.

Here it is:

Galileo's telescopes. (click here)

And a little simulation of what Galileo was the first to see:

Simulating what Galileo could see through his telescope. (click here)

Yesterday, I did something that I have not done in quite a while, and thought I would never do again down here in the USA ....

I put on a suit and tie and went down to St. Peter's Cemetary in Troy to the grave of a Lt.Col. from Troy who was killed on Saipan in the Pacific during WWII ...

He is a Medal of Honor winner, if such is the correct term for getting killed in a heroic manner in combat ....

The occasion for me being there was a request to come and play Amazing Grace and Taps on my flute at the graveside, because the old vets who served with him on Saipan are almost all dead now, and the remaining handful were going there to pay their respects, before they too must "go under" ...

After making damn sure that NO politicians or "dignitaries" were going to be there, I consented with some trepidation to go ....

I am glad that I did ....

I got to meet and shake the hand of one of the last living survivors of that episode in world history which is largely unknown to probably just about everybody now alive ....

He was just a little bit of a thing, sitting crippled up in a van, watching and listening ...

I bet that when he was a soldier back then, he was probably all of about five feet five and a 120 pounds ....

Not these huge supermen that we are fielding now ....

After I shook his hand, my first words to him were, "IT NEVER ENDS, DOES IT?"

He said, "NO, IT NEVER DOES!"

Somehow, in spending some time with him yesterday, I felt connected to something, and that my life was enrichened ....

Not by anything that he did on Saipan ....

But for the life that he has led since then ...

Sammy ....

A lovable sprite of a man, I thought ...

Recently, I guess National Geographics had a special on cable TV about Saipan ...

And as one of the last remaining survivors, Sammy was in that TV special, or so I am told ...

And so far as I could tell, he sure wasn't for war ....

And he didn't brag about winning WWII ...

They got over-run by the Japanese on Saipan, his and my father's unit ....

They got slaughtered in large numbers and some were actually driven out into the sea ....

It was a big, bloody mess ....

That is where and when the Lt.Col. died ....

And little Sammy was there ....

He survived ....

Yesterday, he could still actually laugh ....

I'm glad I went ...

I'm glad that by playing Amazing Grace, I could somehow make something horrible a bit easier to take, if that makes sense to anyone in here ...

WAS BLIND ....

The grave of the Medal of Honor winner is marked by the same small stone slab as all the other privates and such who surround him ....

No big monument or memorial ...

Before the old men got there, I walked around a bit and looked at the names and dates they died ....

I played My Country Tis of Thee for them ....

WE WERE NOT HEROS IN THAT WAR, CO ....

Just common people ....

That is the message that I took from them ...

And so ....

Say it like it is, david ....

It needs to be said ...

Over and over again ....

Until people really do understand ....

SAYING NOTHING IS MAKING A CHOICE ....

And so ...

But rla ....

You are a "character" ....

A "character" in this on-going drama called life ....

That is what makes you interesting ....

And so ....

I'm very strong for the rights of the citizens of the states, rla, as defined by each of their separate constitutions ....

And I can "empathize" with people like Bobby Lee and many others who wore the butternut brown or grey ....

The Secesh ...

The Civil War split and divided the United States Army ....

It cleaved it ....

But somehow, we managed to get around that somehow ....

And here we are ....

And so ....

I'm betting YES ....

Which is why I started this thread ....

As a pre-emptive measure ....

And so ...

Although Kennedy was willing to send U.S. military "advisers" into South Vietnam and mount covert operations in North Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, he drew the line on U.S. combat units.

The word "adviser" implied that the South Vietnamese would do their own fighting.

The introduction of American combat units risked transforming the war into an American war, raising the specter of high U.S. casualties, and fomenting congressional and public debate over administration policy.

On November 11, 1961, President Kennedy decided to commit U.S. advisers to South Vietnam IN EXCESS OF THE NUMBER PERMITTED IN THE GENEVA ACCORDS OF 1954.

Kennedy believed that increased Viet Cong activity in South Vietnam and Laos justified crossing that threshold.

IN THE FOLLOWING TWENTY MONTHS, THE U.S. MILITARY PRESENCE IN SOUTH VIETNAM BALLOONED WITHOUT A DELIBERATE EXAMINATION OF POLICY OPTIONS.

Other issues and events, such as the civil rights movement and a series of foreign policy crises, hit closer to home and overshadowed the increasing U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

ALTHOUGH U.S. ADVISERS WERE FIGHTING WITH SOUTH VIETNAMESE UNITS AND U.S. PILOTS WERE FLYING COMBAT MISSIONS IN SOUTH VIETNAM, KENNEDY DENIED THAT AMERICANS WERE INVOLVED IN COMBAT, AND VIETNAM ATTRACTED LITTLE PUBLIC OR CONGRESSIONAL ATTENTION.

VIETNAM WAS FAR FROM FRONT-PAGE NEWS AND AMERICANS STILL BELIEVED THAT THEIR GOVERNMENT TOLD THEM THE TRUTH.

- p.37, Dereliction of Duty - Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, AND THE LIES THAT LED TO VIET NAM by H.R. McMaster .....

Keep talking, CO ....

You got it ....

You understand ....

But then, you're from out there in the CANDID WORLD ....

Perhaps that has immunized you to the disease of national blindness that we seem to suffer from down here ....

AMAZING GRACE ....

WAS BLIND ....

And so ...

I know that Liv, I took advantage of the opportunity to point out something about patriotism which has always bugged me. Told you I was feisty.

You would be the last one I would ever take offense to when discussing that characteristic.

You may not be as aware of it as I am but a great many Americans do talk as if they and they alone fought that war and were victorious. An overabundance of patriotism whereby other countries are slighted in the remembering. The flags may have differed but the casualties all bled the same. There is no question there would have been no victory without the USA and its courage and I take nothing away from them. I simply believe the honour belongs to all fighting the Allied Cause..

It is not intended to be a dialogue between sages in here, TROU, because who is really ever one of those?

And it was not about living perfect lives, either ....

That is a non-issue in here ....

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ....

And please ....

Go to a different thread and do it ....

We are common folks in here, TROU ...

That is all ...

There is no requirement for perfection in life in here ....

And so ...

And thanks to you, CO ...

THEY HAVE GOT IT IN HERE ....

Lest we forget ....

And so ...

Yep. Selective memory.

There were Americans btw .. who enlisted in the RAF and RCAF and joined that cause long before their country did. They deserve special mention here. None who fought in that war made the decision as to when their country entered the conflict. As is always true .. that remained the prerogative of their government.

I was a child but I seem to recall the entry was also a point of contention between FDR and Ambassador Joe Kennedy as well. Even back then party lines were not always a guarantee of unity when principle mattered.

John Locke, it is ....

Or maybe somebody else ...

Thank you ...

The point is that the thought of natural law long preceded the Declaration of Independence ....

The Declaration of Independence was based on that line of reasoning asnd expressed it to the CANDID WORLD ....

It did not begin it ...

And isn't thought in a sense universal?

Who can be said to own it?

ON THE LAW OF WAR AND AMERICAN RULES OF ENGAGEMENT IN IRAQINAM:

http://www.juancole.com/2005/08/us-militar...gement-and.html

I knew the Viet Nam War was a big Lie from the very beginning, just as I knew the Iraqi War was
a big Lie from the beginning...

Yes. And you just made this old lady cry. Bless you for choosing to honour that request.

When my father died, many years after that conflict had ended, the most moving part of the funeral services was the service held prior to the actual funeral ceremonies. It was an honour guard of WW11 vets who held their own service for a fellow comrade in arms which only the family attended. That was the service which had value and merit as far as I was concerned. The rest was show to conform to traditional burial rites. That respect shown by fellow veterans will always be where I said goodbye to my father.

Good point Liv. It was my patriotism talking there aided and abetted by my personhood. Long live the individual.

Interesting, rla ....

I believe that I honestly did not know ....

I believe that I was probably one of those Americans who could not conceive that OUR own government would lie to us as it did ...

And I wasn't an AMERICA IS THE BEST NATION ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH type, either ....

I honestly bought into that DOMINOES FALLING schtick that was used to so successfully suck us in back then ....

You want to catch fish, know what kind of bait they are biting on, and then use that ...

The Iraq war, yes ....

After Viet Nam, that was quite transparent ....

But I would honestly have to say that I believe I got fooled on Viet Nam ....

I shouldn't have, perhaps ....

But that and $10.50 will get me a latte at Starbucks ....

And so ....

How did you know, do you think, rla?

And by when?

Long live your PERSONHOOD, Snuf ....

And I was betting on your PERSONHOOD coming first ....

That is where my response would come from, I think, anyway ....

Patriotism is a part of us, I think, but we are who we are first ....

Or we are set off in a certain direction, anyway, in our early upbringing ....

Until we fools go off to war ....

And then ....

Well ...

That is how this thread began ....

And it is more important where we have gotten to in here since then ...

And so ...

Me, too, CO ...

I agree with you Liv. "Managed by the community" reminds me of collectivism a la Soviet style.
Managed how? by Big Brother naturally. How else to control 300 million people.

Amazing Grace is a special tune to combat veterans, CO ....

Especially on the flute or pipes ...

Was blind ...

But now can see ....

And so ....

It binds us together like no other, I think ....

Even more so than Taps ...

Taps is good-bye ....

Amazing Grace is for living ....

And so ...

And the danger is, like with FASCISM, that younger people wouldn't likely even have a clue as to what you are saying there, Snuf, when you talk about "collectivism", which is anathema to the concept of personal LIBERTY ...

Especially intellectual liberty and liberty of conscience ....

And so ...

Ah, say, Snuf ....

What are you thinking today so that I can think the same thing so that I don't stand out as different in here?

And so ...

Me too, guys.

If there was any hint of a politician showing up to make a speech, I never would have gone near the place ....

I can't abide politicians climbing up on the bandwagon to make a speech at an occasion like that ....

It was just a handful of old men and me ....

They to say what may well be their final good-byes to a fallen comrade on this green earth of ours ....

And me dressed up like a gentleman for the occasion, to help them do that ....

And so ...

Locke, James and Dewy provided a pragmatic Foundation for a habit of thought, incorporating and
integrating the Arts and Sciences and their many, many distinctions into branches and the evolution
of new paradygms to re-organize these new sources of knowledge into our individual and National
Purpose and Goals (In a more perfect union, of course). A good foundation, for a husky Nation but
WWII ripped it a new a hole. The deep thinkers in Europe traded in Pragmatism for Existenialism.
Half thought God was pissed and we better get our $hit straight, whatever it takes and the other half
thought God was dead. Many people in the US occupied themselves in having a bigger and cleaner
picture window than the rest of the neighborhood...we have an opportunity now to get on with it...

Our country was not built on principles of existentialism or atheism.

You're a pip, rla ....

But right on, regardless .....

And I believe that in here, we have the means ....

And as CO proves, the CANDID WORLD is indeed watching ....

And even joining in, which I think is quite cool ....

Especially the older folks out there ...

20 years ago, who'd a ever thunk it .....

And so ....

Most definitely not atheism ....

Which takes me back to being a little kid in about 4th grade in or about 1954, wondering who the atheists were that gave them the power to BAN the moment of silent prayer of THANKFULNESS that had been a part of my mornings ever since kindergarten ....

And I still wonder about that from the STANDING perspective ....

Somehow, they had standing to make it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court ....

And the U.S Supreme Court, on THEIR behalf, made it UNLAWFUL in schools in America to be THANKFUL that we had been born here, when we had, instead of into a time of war in Europe ....

Or a DP camp ....

And so ...

There is a philosophical point of view which is popular in some areas called, "Communitarian,"
which develops the concept of Community, more to collectivist emphasize than I mean when
I use the concept Community. And I do think that Community is a major, major building block
for any human social system. I am puzzled by the authoritarian and dogmatic interpretations
being put on the words that I am saying in some of these instances.