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Livyjr
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 8 2008, 03:14 PM) *
Our country was not built on principles of existentialism or atheism.

But when I got back from Viet Nam, Snuf, somewhere in there was the BIG BATTLE in America over whether or not God was really dead ...

In my area, God even had billboards saying that it was not so ....

But I think that people were too busy shopping to have noticed ....

And so ....
rla
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 8 2008, 04:14 PM) *
Our country was not built on principles of existentialism or atheism.

I don't know but I don't think atheism claims any principles and existentialism denies its
very existence. However she came about , I plan to keep her.
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 8 2008, 03:24 PM) *
There is a philosophical point of view which is popular in some areas called, "Communitarian," which develops the concept of Community, more to collectivist emphasize than I mean when I use the concept Community.

And I do think that Community is a major, major building block for any human social system.

I am puzzled by the authoritarian and dogmatic interpretations being put on the words that I am saying in some of these instances.

No, rla ...

I think that it is just a case of checking in ....

I for one am not going to say what it is that you are thinking when you say something, without getting further information from you as to what you thought it really was in your mind ...

And then, the beauty is, you get to say back what it really was that you meant ....

I am 100% behind you on this stated role of community .....

You are going back to my first day of kindergarten now, rla, for that is what we were being prepared for ....

To be a productive part of our community ....

And we certainly were not being collectivized ....

ROTE THINKING WAS NOT ALLOWED!

That was what got Germany and its people wearing dunce caps in trouble ....

And it has to start there in the community ....

Or it won't start ....

The individual alone is powerless to change anything ....

Or to even be productive, in many cases ....

And so ....
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 04:26 PM) *
But when I got back from Viet Nam, Snuf, somewhere in there was the BIG BATTLE in America over whether or not God was really dead ...

In my area, God even had billboards saying that it was not so ....

But I think that people were too busy shopping to have noticed ....

And so ....

I'm trying to un-couple the concept, "Existentialism" from, "Atheism." Linking them is a
communication error.
Livyjr
AND WHAT IS UP WITH MERCENARIES GETTING HONORED BY OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY HERE IN AMERICA?

HOW DO MERCENARIES COME TO BE ANYWHERE IN OUR MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND IN POSITIONS OF RANK AND HONOR?

WHAT NATION ARE WE BECOMING HERE, THAT OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY NOW GIVES HONOR AND TRIBUTE TO MERCENARIES?

And so ...

"Freed US hostage denounces Colombian rebels - US hostage freed after years of captivity in Colombia denounces revolutionary group"


By ELIZABETH WHITE, Associated Press

Last updated: 6:52 p.m., Monday, July 7, 2008

FORT SAM HOUSTON, Texas -- Among the smiles and hugs shared by three American hostages freed last week from rebels in Colombia and their families, one of the men on Monday angrily denounced their captors as "terrorists with a capital 'T.'"

Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years, refuses to acknowledge human rights and rejects democracy.


They use revolution as a justification for criminal activity, he said.

"I want to send a message to the FARC," Gonsalves said.

"FARC, you guys are terrorists."


"You deny that you are, you say with words that you're not terrorists, but your words don't have any value."

"Don't tell us that you're not terrorists, show us that you're not terrorists."

Gonsalves made the remarks at a ceremony welcoming him and two other U.S. military contractors -- Thomas Howes and Keith Stansell -- home after their time in captivity.

The military said the hostages would take no questions from reporters.

"Almost 5 1/2 years ago we fell off the edge of the earth."

"... We are doing well but we cannot forget those we left behind in captivity," Howes said.

Family members, some wiping tears, also expressed their gratitude for their loved ones' rescue.

Gonsalves, who was much thinner than he seemed in a pre-captivity picture on display at the ceremony, said he believed the guerrilla group was punishing others because the three men and former Colombian presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt were rescued.

He said a hostage with a chain around his neck would be forced to march while carrying a heavy backpack and a guerrilla armed with an automatic weapon held the other end of the chain "like a dog."

"They say that they want equality, they say that they just want to make Colombia a better place," Gonsalves said.

"But that's all a lie."

Betancourt on Monday advised President Alvaro Uribe of Colombia to tone down the "radical, extremist language of hate" toward her former captors.

The men had been held by the FARC since their drug-surveillance plane went down in the jungle in February 2003.

They were rescued when Colombian spies tricked their rebel captors into handing them over.

Eleven members of the Colombian security forces also were released.

The men, employees of a Northrop Grumman Corp. subsidiary, arrived in the U.S. late Wednesday and were taken by helicopter to Fort Sam Houston's Brooke Army Medical Center, where they have been treated.

Col. Jackie Hayes, chief of pulmonary and critical care at the medical center, said the men "in general fared very well" and that examinations have "not revealed any significant medical problems."

"At this time we believe that they are all very healthy," Hayes said.

The men, who spoke in an auditorium adorned with large yellow ribbons and an American flag, thanked their families, the Colombian military, the U.S. government and Northrop Grumman.

"They are the reason I'm alive and standing right here with all of you today," Stansell said of his family.

Stansell provided one of the lighter moments when, from the podium, he asked Florida Gov. Charlie Crist for a new driver's license so he could get home.

The men waved as they got a lengthy standing ovation from uniformed military in the audience.

"It's a pleasure to be in the USA," Howes said, giving a thumbs-up.
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 8 2008, 03:38 PM) *
I'm trying to un-couple the concept, "Existentialism" from, "Atheism."

Linking them is a communication error.

Explain "existentialism", rla ....
Snuffysmith
John T. Flynn, the liberal-turned-‘Old Right' opponent of the New Deal put it: "When fascism comes it will not be in the form of an anti-American movement or pro-Hitler bund, practicing disloyalty. Nor will it come in the form of a crusade against war. It will appear rather in the luminous robes of flaming patriotism; it will take some genuinely indigenous shape and color, and it will spread only because its leaders, who are not yet visible, will know how to locate the great springs of public opinion and desire and the streams of thought that flow from them and will know how to attract to their banners leaders who can command the support of the controlling minorities in American public life. The danger lies not so much in the would-be führers who may arise, but in the presence in our midst of certain deeply running currents of hope and appetite and opinion. The war upon fascism must be begun there."

Flynn, one of FDR's bitterest opponents, wrote these words in As We Go Marching, his indictment of a postwar America that had fought national socialism – and was beginning to fight Soviet totalitarianism as the book was published – but, he feared, would lose the fight against incipient authoritarianism on the home front. Flynn defined fascism in a way that was congruent with the rising Welfare-Warfare State, founded on the principle of Big Government at home and militarism abroad. "First let us state our definition of fascism," he writes:

"It is, put briefly, a system of social organization in which the political state is a dictatorship supported by a political elite and in which the economic society is an autarchic capitalism, enclosed and planned, in which the government assumes responsibility for creating adequate purchasing power through the instrumentality of national debt and in which militarism is adopted as a great economic project for creating work as well as a great romantic project in the service of the imperialist state."

What a near-perfect anticipation of our present state! He must have seen it in a dream. As an unpopular war reaches its horrific crescendo, and the President upholds his "right" to wage it in defiance of Congress and the popular will, the theoreticians of the new fascism – what Lew Rockwell trenchantly calls "red-state fascism" – are given ample space on the editorial page of the War Street Journal to make their case. Are the masses growing increasingly discontented with the "wisdom" of their rulers, who are, after all, by definition, their betters?
ConcernedObserver
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 04:52 PM) *
Amazing Grace is a special tune to combat veterans, CO ....

Especially on the flute or pipes ...

Was blind ...

But now can see ....

And so ....

It binds us together like no other, I think ....

Even more so than Taps ...

Taps is good-bye ....

Amazing Grace is for living ....

And so ...

I know Liv. As each of our casualties is carried from the plane in a flag draped coffin by comrades when they arrive back on Canadian soil from Afghanistan, they are met and accompanied by a piper playing Amazing Grace. And each and every time I weep for another young life taken too soon. And, my hatred for war is intensified over and over again.

Our NEO CON Prime Minister tried Bush's trick of not allowing the Canadian people to see the homecomings. He failed. Canadians categorically refused to accept his edict. The only cases where this is not the tradition is if the family requests privacy. Of course in such cases that wish is honoured.
Livyjr
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 8 2008, 04:01 PM) *
As each of our casualties is carried from the plane in a flag draped coffin by comrades when they arrive back on Canadian soil from Afghanistan, they are met and accompanied by a piper playing Amazing Grace.

Thanks for that, CO ....

Pipe them over ....

I like that myself ....

And so ...
Livyjr
WAR ...

PATRIOTISM ....

DUTY ...

AND REMEMBRANCE ...

"From rigors of war, personal liberation - A woman looks back on her time caring for wounded troops in WWII"


By TIM O'BRIEN, Staff writer, Albany, New York Times Union

First published: Tuesday, July 8, 2008

ALBANY -- Born into a broken home, raised by a strict foster mother, Stella Wetterhahn kept to herself until she became an Army nurse during World War II.

"When I got into nursing, the shell broke," Wetterhahn recalled.

"I became outgoing."


Today, Wetterhahn lives in Albany and recalls with loving detail her role in caring for the wounded.

In recent years, tale after tale has been told about the rapidly dwindling number of surviving soldiers.

This is a nurse's story.

A native of Clayton, Jefferson County, Wetterhahn was working at a Watertown hospital then called the House of Good Samaritan.

After the D-Day invasion in 1944, she was told the Army was in dire need of nurses.

When she volunteered she was in her early 20s.


"My foster mother didn't like it," she said.

"She never wrote me a letter the whole time I was in service."

She and 18 others received their training in Atlantic City.

She vividly recalls marching up and down the boardwalk in her nurse uniform, past the tourists.

They marched 19 miles one day, 21 the next.

At the end of the monthlong training, she was given a $25 award as the most distinguished member of the class.

In her neatly organized files, she pulls out a newspaper clipping and black-and-white photos of herself from the time.

Before going overseas, she spent time at Camp Kilmer in New Jersey.

When they left, she and the other women did not know where they were being sent.

She boarded the Queen Mary ocean liner with eight other nurses and five "Red Cross girls."

"Mickey Rooney was on it to go over and entertain the boys," Wetterhahn recalled.

The ship was so crowded, she said, the nurses were served only two meals a day.

They stopped in Scotland on Nov. 10, 1944, then took a train to England.

On December 8, she arrived at the 156th General Hospital in Hereford, where she was assigned to treat wounded troops from the front in France.

"We all came down with these terrible, terrible colds," she said.

"The chief nurse said 'I thought they were sending me nurses.'"

"'You all sound like patients.' "

She recalls one man whose Jeep had overturned.

"He was severely burned."

"All you could see were his eyes, his nose and his mouth but he never complained," she said.


She recalls his unusual name: Sgt. Moots.

"We tried to keep them happy, to keep their spirits up," she said of her patients.

"We'd take them outside to get them away from the war."

Wetterhahn returned to the United States on the Queen Elizabeth in June 1945.

But Wetterhahn's service continued.

She was sent to a hospital in Jackson, Miss., where she was the head nurse in the orthopedic ward.

She still keeps their photographs.

She then moved to a hospital in Memphis before being given her final assignment -- a hospital train that carried patients from San Francisco.

On one trip, a grandmother was aboard the same train with her two grandchildren.

"We went down to the dining car to have our meal, but this little boy came down with his sister."

"He said, 'Could you come down? Grandmother is sick.' "

The woman had suffered a stroke and was unable to speak.

Her right arm and leg were paralyzed.

Wetterhahn and another nurse helped take care of her for a day until she got back to her family so she would not be placed in a hospital far from home.

A man on the train owned a hosiery store in Memphis.

Touched by their care, she said, "he gave us a box of stockings each, which you couldn't buy in those days."

When she left the Army in February 1947, she moved to Albany.

A friend had graduated from Russell Sage College and was working at what was then called Albany Hospital and is now Albany Medical Center.

Wetterhahn later joined the medical practice of Archibald & Schultze at 352 State St.

She retired in 1985.

She will turn 86 on July 30.

Though she never returned to England, her days spent there as an Army nurse remain vivid.

Tim O'Brien can be reached at 454-5092 or by e-mail at tobrien@timesunion.com.
ConcernedObserver
http://www.slimsplace.com/LestWeForget/index.html

Meet some amazing ladies Liv. I met Dorothy when she visited my site several years ago. She is in her nineties and still going strong. She loves her computer and has taught herself to use this new fangled communication tool very much to her advantage.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 8 2008, 03:53 PM) *
John T. Flynn, the liberal-turned-‘Old Right' opponent of the New Deal put it:

"When fascism comes it will not be in the form of an anti-American movement or pro-Hitler bund, practicing disloyalty."

"Nor will it come in the form of a crusade against war."

"It will appear rather in the luminous robes of flaming patriotism; it will take some genuinely indigenous shape and color, and it will spread only because its leaders, who are not yet visible, will know how to locate the great springs of public opinion and desire and the streams of thought that flow from them and will know how to attract to their banners leaders who can command the support of the controlling minorities in American public life."

"The danger lies not so much in the would-be führers who may arise, but in the presence in our midst of certain deeply running currents of hope and appetite and opinion."

"The war upon fascism must be begun there."

An excellent contribution to our stream of consciousness in here, Snuf ....

The FASCISTS out there probably won't be thrilled with it ....

But ****'em is my thought ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 8 2008, 04:18 PM) *
http://www.slimsplace.com/LestWeForget/index.html

Meet some amazing ladies Liv.

I met Dorothy when she visited my site several years ago.

She is in her nineties and still going strong.

She loves her computer and has taught herself to use this new fangled communication tool very much to her advantage.

God bless'em, CO ....

They are an inspiration for us younger folks in here ....

And I truly believe that positive use of the internet as a communication tool has the real power to change the world in a positive way ...

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 05:11 PM) *
Thanks for that, CO ....

Pipe them over ....

I like that myself ....

And so ...

Yes, CO, I like that also.
Livyjr
Common ground ...

Common sense ...

And so ...
Livyjr
I think that it makes a thread a bit more human, when we can lightly banter in here a bit between bouts of fury, expostulation, etc. ...

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 05:24 PM) *
An excellent contribution to our stream of consciousness in here, Snuf ....

The FASCISTS out there probably won't be thrilled with it ....

But ****'em is my thought ....

And so ...

"Currents of Thought, Appetites, and Opinions," and this what we have to be on the watch out far
and be vigalent in stoomping out.. On Saturday night I say you gotta fight for your right to Party...
rla
And in the grocery industry, Sat is on either Tuesday or Wed and my wife is off to day and I just had a Corona while watching her ride so I say let'er rip.
Livyjr
QUOTE(picadilly @ Jul 8 2008, 12:28 PM) *
Cicero is behind the concept of Natural Law, but depending on the school of propaganda and the school of thought one has gone through, many will say the Declaration draws upon the thoughts of John Locke, while others, like myself, won't bother arguing and think: Gottfried Leibniz. dancing.gif

And with that thought in mind:

A

DEFENCE

OF THE

CONSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT

OF THE

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

BY JOHN ADAMS, LL. D.

AND A MEMBER OT THE ACADEMY OF ARTS AND SCIENCES AT BOSTON.

All nature's difference keeps all nature's peace. Pope.

LONDON:

MINTED FOR C. DILLY, IN THE POULTRY.

M.DCC.LXXXVII.


http://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_00.htm
Livyjr
And while we are the subject of American history, and the nationalism that has led us to here, we have:

Before his death, President Franklin D. Roosevelt had made self-determination part of his vision for the postwar world.

Under the tutelege or "trusteeship" of the West, the Vietnamese and other "brown people of the East" would gradually gain their independence.

(Franklin D. Roosevelt as quoted in Michael Hunt, Lyndon Johnson's War: America's Cold War Crusade in Vietnam, 1945-1968, [New York: Hill and Wang, 1996], p.6)

After World War II, Roosevelt's successor, Harry S. Truman, rejected trusteeship IN FAVOR OF CONCILIATING FRANCE AND EUROPE.

Despite Ho's (Ho Chi Minh) attempts to emphasize his nationalistic aims over his Communist predilections, the United States WATCHED PASSIVELY AS FRANCE MOVED TO RECLAIM INDOCHINA, FIRST IN THE SOUTH, THEN IN THE NORTH.

In mid-December 1946, increasing tension between the French and Vietnamese nationalists gave way to direct military conflict, with the Vietminh leading the effort against the French.

As the First Indochina War began, the FEAR OF GLOBAL COMMUNISM along with U.S. LOYALTY TO ITS EUROPEAN ALLIES IMPELLED AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR THE FRENCH.

U.S. APPROVAL OF FRENCH AIMS IN INDOCHINA WAS ALREADY AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF BUILDING A EUROPEAN ALLIANCE AGAINST THE COMMUNIST THREAT TO WESTERN EUROPE.

At the end of the 1940's, against the backdrop of the iron curtain's descent over Europe, the Soviet Union's successful explosion of an atomic device, and the Communist victory in China, THE TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION CONCLUDED THAT HO WAS PART OF A SOVIET-SPONSORED, MONOLITHIC COMMUNIST MOVEMENT.

THE FRENCH, MEANWHILE, ATTEMPTED TO COUNTER HO'S POPULARITY AND CURRY FAVOR WITH THE UNITED STATES BY CREATING A VENEER OF INDEPENDENCE FOR VIETNAM UNDER EMPEROR BAO DAI'S PUPPET GOVERNMENT.

CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE EMPEROR AND HIS COMPETITOR IN THE NORTH WERE STRIKING.

HO SEEMED TO PERSONIFY VIETNAM'S EXPERIENCE WITH FRENCH COLONIALISM.

HIS TIME IN THE WEST HAD LEFT A DEEP IMPRESSION ON HIM, YET HE RETAINED HIS NATIVE IDENTITY AND PEASANT APPEARANCE.

HE HAD STUDIED AND APPROPRIATED THE IDEAS THAT HAD SPARKED REVOLUTIONS IN AMERICA AND FRANCE IN THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY AS WELL AS IN RUSSIA IN 1917.

HO'S REPUTATION AS A LEARNED ASCETIC DEVOTED TO THE VIETNAMESE PEOPLE CONTRASTED WITH BAO DAI'S OPULENT AFFECTATIONS, PHILANDERING, AND RECORD OF COLLABORATION WITH THE FRENCH AND JAPANESE.


- pp.33,34, Dereliction of Duty - Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, AND THE LIES THAT LED TO VIET NAM by H.R. McMaster .....
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 06:07 PM) *
And with that thought in mind:

A

DEFENCE

OF THE

CONSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT

OF THE

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

BY JOHN ADAMS, LL. D.

AND A MEMBER OT THE ACADEMY OF ARTS AND SCIENCES AT BOSTON.

All nature's difference keeps all nature's peace. Pope.

LONDON:

MINTED FOR C. DILLY, IN THE POULTRY.

M.DCC.LXXXVII.


http://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_00.htm

I prefer the current street talk, If you are gonna talk the talk, be ready to walk the walk!
Livyjr
Were you aware of this work by John Adams, picadilly?
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 8 2008, 05:30 PM) *
I prefer the current street talk, If you are gonna talk the talk, be ready to walk the walk!

Once again, rla, you have totally lost me here ....

I haven't a clue as to what you are even on about here with this "walk the walk" stuff ...

And one thing that I am very much against is RE-WRITING American and world history ....

That is not what you are saying here, is it?

We don't have a DEMOCRACY in the United States of America ....

We have a Constitutional REPUBLIC ...

Democracy unfettered is the death of nations ...

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 05:07 PM) *
A

DEFENCE

OF THE

CONSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT

OF THE

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

BY JOHN ADAMS, LL. D.

AND A MEMBER OT THE ACADEMY OF ARTS AND SCIENCES AT BOSTON.

All nature's difference keeps all nature's peace. Pope.

LONDON:

MINTED FOR C. DILLY, IN THE POULTRY.

M.DCC.LXXXVII.


http://www.constitution.org/jadams/ja1_00.htm

This document is part of how we got to where we are in the United States of America with OUR REPUBLIC ...

I don't give a damn what the current street talk on the subject might be ....

And so ...
Snuffysmith
"We often hear the claim that our nation is a democracy," writes columnist Dr. Walter Williams. But, "That wasn't the vision of the founders. They saw democracy as another form of tyranny. … The founders intended, and laid out the ground rules for, our nation to be a republic. … The word democracy appears nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution."

Indeed, the Constitution guarantees "to every State in this Union a republican form of government."

Asks Williams: "Does our pledge of allegiance to the flag say to 'the democracy for which it stands,' or does it say to 'the republic for which it stands'? Or do we sing 'The Battle Hymn of the Democracy' or 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic'?"

There is a critical difference between a republic and a democracy, Williams notes, citing our second president: "John Adams captured the essence of that difference when he said: 'You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.' Nothing in our Constitution suggests that government is a grantor of rights. Instead, government is a protector of rights."

The founders deeply distrusted democracy. Williams cites Adams again: "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Chief Justice John Marshall seconded Adams' motion: "Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."

"When the Constitution was framed," wrote historian Charles Beard, "no respectable person called himself or herself a democrat."

Democracy-worship suggests a childlike belief in the wisdom and goodness of "the people." But the people supported the guillotine in the French Revolution and Napoleon. The people were wild with joy as the British, French, and German boys marched off in August 1914 to the Great War that inflicted the mortal wound on Western civilization. The people supported Hitler and the Nuremburg Laws.

Our fathers no more trusted in the people always to do the right thing than they trusted in kings. In the republic they created, the House of Representatives, the people's house, was severely restricted in its powers by a Bill of Rights and checked by a Senate whose members were to be chosen by the states, by a president with veto power, and by a Supreme Court.

"What kind of government do we have?" the lady asked Benjamin Franklin, as he emerged from the Constitutional Convention.

Said Franklin, "A republic – if you can keep it."

Let us restore that republic and, as Jefferson said, "Hear no more of trust in men, but rather bind them down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution."

Snuffysmith
The below article was written in December, 2005. We have since come to learn that the question should included Democratic Senators as well.




Will Republican Senators Save the Republic?
by Ray McGovern I'll say this for Vice President Dick Cheney: he puts it right out there, whether it is trying to ensure legal protection for those torturing prisoners, or insisting – as he did on Tuesday – that a wartime president "needs to have his powers unimpaired."

Supporters of this view are dredging up quotes from former officials like George H.W. Bush's attorney general, William Barr, who, according to the Washington Post, contends:

"The Constitution's intent when we're under attack from outside is to place maximum power in the president, and the other branches – and especially the courts – don't act as a check on the president's authority against the enemy."

So there we have it: the Bush administration's contention that the president's power as commander in chief during wartime puts him above the law. Bush may bristle, as he did Monday, at a question from the press about "unchecked power," but that is plain English for it. Whether authorizing torture or wiretaps, he reserves the right to act irrespective of domestic or international law.

The question is whether Congress and the courts will acquiesce in this usurpation of their own powers, or whether there are still enough men and women in those branches of government determined to honor their oath to defend the Constitution of the United States "from all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Some hope can be seen in a recent remark by Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel, who told reporters:

"I took an oath of office to the Constitution. I didn't take an oath of office to my party or to my president."

Two and a half years ago, when former ambassador Joseph Wilson exposed the president's misstatement about Iraq seeking uranium in Africa, all the president's men and the woman were in high dudgeon over Wilson's op-ed exposé in the New York Times. What infuriated them the most, I am convinced, was Wilson's pointed remark to Washington Post reporters that the Iraq-Africa-uranium canard "begs the question regarding what else they are lying about." Quite a lot, we are finding out.

Other Abuses?

We need to ask a similar question. What undermining of our Constitution may be going on below the surface elsewhere in the intelligence community besides unwarranted eavesdropping on U.S. citizens? Under last year's intelligence-reform legislation, Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte has under his aegis not only the entire CIA but also a major part of the FBI. Under existing law, the CIA has no police powers, and its operatives are generally enjoined against collecting intelligence information on American citizens.

Since citizens' constitutional protections do not sit atop the list of CIA priorities and its focus is abroad, it pays those protections little heed. In contrast, FBI personnel, for judicial and other reasons, are trained to observe those protections scrupulously and to avoid going beyond what the law permits. That accounts, in part, for why FBI agents at the Guantanamo detention facility judged it necessary to report the abuses they witnessed. Would they have acted so responsibly had they been part of a wider, more disparate environment in which the strict guidelines reflecting the FBI's ethos were not universally observed?

It is an important question. In my view, the need to protect the civil liberties of American citizens must trump other exigencies when rights embedded in the Constitution are at risk. The reorganization dictated by the intelligence reform legislation cannot be permitted to blur or erode constitutional protections. That would be too high a price to pay for hoped-for efficiencies of integration and scale.

Rather, there is a continuing need for checks and balances and – especially in law enforcement – clear lines of demarcation within the executive branch as well as outside it. Unfortunately, the structure and functions of the "oversight board" created by the intelligence legislation make a mockery of the 9/11 Commission's insistence that an independent body be established to prevent infringement on civil liberties. Sadly, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board created by the new law has been gutted to such a degree that it has become little more than a powerless creature of the president.

This concern over endangering civil liberties is fact-based. In discussing it we are not in the subjunctive mood. No one seemed to notice, but on June 16, 2004, when current CIA director Porter Goss was chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, he actually introduced legislation that would have given the president new authority to direct the CIA to conduct law-enforcement operations inside the United States – including arresting American citizens. This legislation would have reversed the strict prohibition in the National Security Act of 1947 against such CIA activities. Thankfully, Goss' initiative got swamped by other legislation in the wake of the 9/11 Commission report.

Hearings

I suspect that recent revelations about arguably illegal eavesdropping hardly scratch the surface. The point is that unless Congress receives a quick injection of courage and steps up to its oversight responsibility under the Constitution, many abuses are likely to continue undetected.

Will enough Republican senators honor their oath to defend the Constitution? Our system of checks and balances hangs in the balance, so to speak. The president has thrown down the gauntlet by declaring he will continue to authorize unilaterally eavesdropping that, by law, requires a court order. Will senators pick up the gauntlet, or are they more likely to let it lie until early next year when this constitutional crisis, important as it is, may be eclipsed by fresh revelations of other abuses of power?

Is it fair to pin so much responsibility on Republican senators? No, it's not fair. But that is the way it is. One looks in vain to the other side of the aisle for the courage that the times require. But what about Democrat senators – the gutsy Russ Feingold and the eloquent Robert Byrd? However courageous, they are not well-positioned to affect the outcome of this constitutional crisis.

Rather, the Democratic Party has slender reeds to lean on – take Sen. Jay Rockefeller, for example. Briefed on the illegal eavesdropping program, Rockefeller let Cheney intimidate him into silence. Sure, the congressman wrote a letter to Cheney (and kept a CYA copy, which he has now given the press). But when he got no answer, did it not occur to the ranking minority member of the Senate Intelligence Committee to ask to speak to Cheney's supervisor?

On Tuesday, Senate Intelligence Committee chair Pat Roberts ridiculed Rockefeller for "feigning helplessness." Roberts is certainly in position to know, since Rockefeller has made helplessness a career, and thus made Roberts' task easy. Sen. Rockefeller's obeisance to the chair is matched only by U.S. Marine Roberts' "Semper Fi" to the party and the president. This is important, since the White House has already succeeded in ensuring that Roberts and Rockefeller will play leadership roles in any Senate investigation of the eavesdropping.

Initially, it appeared that since constitutional and legal considerations prevail on this issue, the hearings would be orchestrated and led by Senate Judiciary Committee chair Arlen Specter, who immediately expressed deep concern at the revelations about eavesdropping. That was a hopeful sign, even though the ranking Democrat on Judiciary, Patrick Leahy, fits the Rockefeller mold – as evidenced by Leahy's vote for arch-defender of unbridled presidential power Roberto Gonzales to be attorney general.

From Republic to Empire

Let's hope history does not repeat itself. The constitution of ancient Rome was put in place in 510 B.C., when the republicans overthrew the last of the Roman kings, Tarquin the Proud. As was the case 2,300 years later in the newborn USA, the introduction of constitutional order meant the rule of law and not of kings, providing liberty under law for every Roman citizen. That experiment lasted almost five centuries, until the Roman senators fell down on the job.

Although Cicero warned, with pointed eloquence, of the dangers to the Republic, in the end his warnings proved no match for strongmen like Julius Caesar and Gnaeus Pompey. They wrapped themselves in republican virtue when it suited them, but they lacked any serious belief in the fundamental principles that had formed republican Rome. They and their followers believed in themselves, and in their own vision of what Rome should be, and in little else. Plutarch tells us that the increasingly glaring unequal distribution of wealth served to make the situation exceedingly volatile. Sound familiar?

And so the Republic died, and Cicero died with it, his severed head and hands nailed to the "rostra," the platform in the forum from which he had warned the Roman people. The vision of the strongmen led first to civil war and then to empire.

Republican senators, don't let it happen here.

A shorter version of this article appeared on Truthout.com.

http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=8297
Livyjr
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 8 2008, 05:50 PM) *
"We often hear the claim that our nation is a democracy," writes columnist Dr. Walter Williams.

But, "That wasn't the vision of the founders."

"They saw democracy as another form of tyranny."

"… The founders intended, and laid out the ground rules for, our nation to be a republic."

"… The word democracy appears nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution."

Those words needed to be said, Snuf ....

Thanks for doing so in here ....

They are very relevant to this thread, and to our times ....

And John Adams did a very extensive exposition of the subject of governments in the world, including the Greek experience with democracy ...

Which we neither need nor want here ....

And so...
rla
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 8 2008, 06:50 PM) *
"We often hear the claim that our nation is a democracy," writes columnist Dr. Walter Williams. But, "That wasn't the vision of the founders. They saw democracy as another form of tyranny. … The founders intended, and laid out the ground rules for, our nation to be a republic. … The word democracy appears nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution."

Indeed, the Constitution guarantees "to every State in this Union a republican form of government."

Asks Williams: "Does our pledge of allegiance to the flag say to 'the democracy for which it stands,' or does it say to 'the republic for which it stands'? Or do we sing 'The Battle Hymn of the Democracy' or 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic'?"

There is a critical difference between a republic and a democracy, Williams notes, citing our second president: "John Adams captured the essence of that difference when he said: 'You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.' Nothing in our Constitution suggests that government is a grantor of rights. Instead, government is a protector of rights."

The founders deeply distrusted democracy. Williams cites Adams again: "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Chief Justice John Marshall seconded Adams' motion: "Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."

"When the Constitution was framed," wrote historian Charles Beard, "no respectable person called himself or herself a democrat."

Democracy-worship suggests a childlike belief in the wisdom and goodness of "the people." But the people supported the guillotine in the French Revolution and Napoleon. The people were wild with joy as the British, French, and German boys marched off in August 1914 to the Great War that inflicted the mortal wound on Western civilization. The people supported Hitler and the Nuremburg Laws.

Our fathers no more trusted in the people always to do the right thing than they trusted in kings. In the republic they created, the House of Representatives, the people's house, was severely restricted in its powers by a Bill of Rights and checked by a Senate whose members were to be chosen by the states, by a president with veto power, and by a Supreme Court.

"What kind of government do we have?" the lady asked Benjamin Franklin, as he emerged from the Constitutional Convention.

Said Franklin, "A republic – if you can keep it."

Let us restore that republic and, as Jefferson said, "Hear no more of trust in men, but rather bind them down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution."

Nothing to disagree with here. I think we all agree that there is now and have always been a certain amount of dynamic equilibrium involved among the different publics making up the US of A, for balancing how much like a democracy we are and how much of a republic we are. As we mature, as a people, we can handle more democracy--especially with the advances in technology available.
piccadilly
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 06:34 PM) *
Were you aware of this work by John Adams, picadilly?

No, I wasn't.
I haven't found anything about John Adams striking enough that would have made me look further into the character and his works.
Snuffysmith
Thoughts on Independence Day 2006 from Pat Buchanan

An Independent Republic Still?
by Patrick J. Buchanan Two hundred thirty years have elapsed since Jefferson's document was signed in Philadelphia, declaring the 13 colonies to be independent forever of the England of George III.

In his Farewell Address, Washington defined independence in a single sentence: "It is our true policy to steer clear of any permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world."

Jefferson echoed the father of his country, declaring America's policy to be one of "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."

Adams thought his greatest achievement was that he prevented a naval war with France from degenerating into all out-war with Napoleon, and had severed America's 1778 alliance with Paris. Not for 150 years would the United States enter another permanent alliance, NATO, in the extraordinary situation that was the Cold War.

It was because America remained independent of the alliances of Europe – the Triple Entente of Britain, France, and Russia, and Triple Alliance of Germany, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Italy – that Americans did not arrive on the battlefields of the Great War of 1914-1918 until six months before the Armistice. America lost 116,000 soldiers in that bloodbath, but avoided the horrendous casualties that killed the Austro-Hungarian, German, Russian, and Ottoman empires, and forever wounded the British and French.

America emerged the most powerful nation and greatest creditor on earth, as a Senate wisely rejected both the Versailles Treaty and a League of Nations set up to enforce its dishonorable terms.

World War II began Sept. 3, 1939, when Britain declared war on Germany to honor a guarantee Neville Chamberlain had given to Poland. France fell in the late spring of 1940, as the British were hurled off the Continent. Stalin's prison house of nations was invaded in June of 1941. Untold millions in Central and Eastern Europe perished.

Free of alliances, the Americans did not even land in France until five years after the war began, only 11 months before its end in Europe.

No European empire survived these wars. No great European nation was left undiminished. These wars ended Europe's role as shaper of world history.

Thus it was that America emerged as first nation on earth, the most self-sufficient republic in history, undisputed leader of the West. For 40 years of Cold War against a Soviet Empire, America drew a red line across Europe and told Moscow not to cross it. Nor did we cross it the other way to liberate Eastern Europe, when the Hungarian Revolution broke out in 1956, the Prague Spring was crushed by Russian tanks in 1968, or Solidarity was smashed on Moscow's orders in 1981.

Unlike the British and French who declared war over Poland in 1939, Americans did not think Eastern Europe worth the risk of a new world war. We waited patiently for the evil empire to collapse, and collapse it did under steady pressure from Reagan's America. Patience paid off, for, as Reagan always believed, time was on our side, time was on the side of freedom. It still is.

Today, however, the independent foreign policy of Washington and Jefferson, the noninterventionist policy of Eisenhower and Reagan – of peace through strength, of staying out of wars where U.S. interests are not imperiled, of keeping one's powder dry unless the United States were attacked – is derided as cowardly isolationism.

So, with the end of the Cold War did not come the end of the Cold War alliances, but their permanent extension, and the addition of new allies, until it is probably not possible for a major war to break out anywhere on earth today without the United States being involved from Day One.

Alliances are transmission belts of war. Temporary ones, like the French alliance of 1778 and the NATO alliance of 1949, may be necessary, but a wise republic terminates those entanglements when the crisis is ended – and restores its freedom of action to decide when, where, and whether to go to war, and not have that decision made by some 50-year-old treaty.

That is what the Founding Fathers taught, and what America believed, to her benefit, for most of her history.

But if the Founding Fathers were to come back to life and to be asked, "Whom does the America of 2006 resemble more, the republic you created or the empire from which you broke away?" is there any doubt how they would have to answer?

America today is more dependent on foreign fuel, foreign goods, foreign loans, and foreign allies than she has ever been. Her worldwide commitments have never been greater, nor has her global and national debt.

Yet her leaders still seek to embed America every more deeply in global institutions from the WTO to the United Nations to the North American Union.

This is not the road on which the Founding Fathers set out, but it is a familiar road, one taken before by every empire in history.

Thoughts on Independence Day, 2006.

Livyjr
An excellent read, Snuf ....

Thought-provoking for anyone who can read and will think ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(picadilly @ Jul 8 2008, 06:08 PM) *
No, I wasn't.

I haven't found anything about John Adams striking enough that would have made me look further into the character and his works.

Well ....

That's a pregnant thought ....

The work, however, separate and apart from John Adams himself, is quite comprehensive, I thought, anyway ....

It gives one a good idea of how much thought went into the formation of OUR federal government back then ....

And it certainly was not just some willy-nilly, knee-jerk effort, from my perspective, anyway ...

I look at the work from the standpoint of citizenship, not as a student or adherent or partisan of John Adams ....

From whence did this REPUBLIC of OURS really come from ...

And part or much of that answer lies in that particular document, which I believe was in the possession of all the delegates at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention ...

From my reading of such works as Miracle at Philadelphia by Catherine Drinker Bowen, I walk away with a feeling that many of those men were much better educated as to the history of the world, and government and human nature and natural philosophy or science than we may well be today ....

As rla perhaps rightly has it, we are VICTIMS of IGNORANCE in America today ....

So that we are capable of getting fooled all the time and twice on Sunday, anymore ....

Viet Nam

And now, IRAQINAM ...

And we are ruled by a fool, to boot ...

As if we had picked the COURT JESTER to be OUR king ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 07:48 PM) *
And who is the VICTIM here, rla?

Not somebody who is older than 18 years old, and that is for certain ....

Not somebody serving in the U.S. military ....

QUOTE(rla @ Jul 8 2008, 08:18 AM) *
No, I mean blaming the dumb public for being dumb.

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 02:41 PM) *
Interesting, rla ....

I believe that I honestly did not know ....

I believe that I was probably one of those Americans who could not conceive that OUR own government would lie to us as it did ...

And I wasn't an AMERICA IS THE BEST NATION ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH type, either ....

I honestly bought into that DOMINOES FALLING schtick that was used to so successfully suck us in back then ....

You want to catch fish, know what kind of bait they are biting on, and then use that ...

The Iraq war, yes ....

After Viet Nam, that was quite transparent ....

But I would honestly have to say that I believe I got fooled on Viet Nam ....

I shouldn't have, perhaps ....

But that and $10.50 will get me a latte at Starbucks ....

And so ....

Well, rla ...

You have caused me to have to go back and re-think my earlier premise on VICTIM-HOOD in here ....

Generally, I am not big on adopting or using the term "VICTIM", especially with respect to myself, since I see that as the sure road to SELF-DEFEAT in life ....

"OH, BUT I AM THE VICTIM HERE ...."

But since we are talking a specific context in here, the relationship or lack or relationship between patriotism and war and nationalism and fascism and imperialism and expansionism ..

And since I was forced in here to have to admit that I got fooled on Viet Nam ...

I have to come back and re-examine things in the light of your admonition to "NOT BLAME THE DUMB PUBLIC FOR BEING DUMB"!

Was I dumb for having been fooled back in 1967?

Many people have told me so, since ...

Many have in fact called me a GOD-DAMNED FOOL for joining the U.S. Army, and for then going to Viet Nam ...

And many who call or label themselves LIBERALS up here where I am have stated that since I was a fool and went to Viet Nam, that I deserve everything that happened to me over there, including getting wounded, so that I should not be entitled to any compensation or disability benefits from the U.S. government, because they feel that that money would be better spent on one of their causes, instead ...

AND IN A DEMOCRACY, WHERE NUMBERS ALONE COUNT, MAYBE THEY WILL SUCCEED IN HAVING IT BE SO ....

Certainly, the IRAQINAM veterans are capitalizing on DEMOCRACY BIG-TIME, here in the USA ....

They have used their political clout to get older Viet Nam veterans like myself SQUEEZED OUT of the VA health care system up here where I am, so that they can get "first-in-line" privileges for themselves, an effort on their part that has been aided and abetted by such veteran's organizations as the VFW and American Legion and Military Order of the Purple Heart and Disabled American Veterans, since those organizations must pander to the IRAQINAM war veterans to keep their membership going, as older veterans like me die off and go to our "reward" ....

But I digress ....

What is on my mind is HOW can the dumb public in the United States of America be so dumb ....

Obviously, there is a major FAILURE someplace, somehow .....

OR IS THERE?

Are we being INDOCTRINATED, and we just don't know it?

If that is the case, then I am probably doubly dumb, SINCE THAT IS WHAT MY KINDERGARTEN TEACHER WAS WARNING AND ADMONISHING AGAINST ON THAT FIRST DAY OF KINDERGARTEN, WAY BACK WHEN ....

"DO YOU WANT TO HAVE TO WEAR A DUNCE'S CAP LIKE THE PEOPLE OF GERMANY DO?"

"No, teacher!"

"WELL THEN ..."

And I could understand if when I left school afterwards, somebody said to me, "AH, **** HER, SHE'S JUST A WOMAN, WHAT DOES SHE KNOW ...."

But that didn't happen, so far as I can recall ....

My bus drivers were WWII veterans ....

They weren't preaching WAR to me on the school bus ...

There were the armless and legless and blind and insane veterans of WWII in my community ...

The ones with no faces and mis-shapen heads ....

I don't recall any of them telling me to **** what that teacher was saying and go off to war because it was such a great deal ...

"HEY, KID, YOU WANT A MIS-SHAPEN HEAD LIKE ME?"

"C'MERE, I'LL TELL YOU HOW TO GET ONE ..."

So where did it all begin to go so wrong, rla?

Is it the fault of THE WHO?

They should have sang their song in the early-1950's, instead of having waited so long?

Is it the fault of the recording industry, perhaps, that they delayed the singing of that song for so long?

Or were they all fooled, too?

You have handed us a conundrum in here, rla ....

Thanks for that ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 05:40 AM) *
Well, rla ...

You have handed us a conundrum in here, rla ....

Thanks for that ....

And so ...

And your conundrum, rla, is very timely and relevant as well in here, because on the radio news this morning up here where I am anyway, the headline topic of discussion was the patriotic nationalists in IRAQINAM calling for a timetable for withdrawal of the troops of the FASCIST TYRANT EXPANSIONIST/IMPERIALIST JINGO George W. "STINK OF DEATH IS UPON HIM" Bush from THEIR nation ...

And the FASCIST TYRANT EXPANSIONIST/IMPERIALIST JINGO George W. "STINK OF DEATH IS UPON HIM" Bush is saying "NO" ....

He is not going to withdraw HIS troops from their soil until he is damn good and ready to, which will be after the oil is gone, and not before ...

He and Dick Cheney have to secure their retirements yet ....

And then, they both have family to consider ....

And so ....

DYNASTY ....

IRAQINAM is a JEWEL IN THE CROWN of George W.(ar monger) Bush, and he is going to use MIGHT and MILITARY FORCE to keep it there ....

And the nationalists of IRAQINAM seem to be considering ways to prize that JEWEL back out ....

So it seems that WE are on some kind of collision course here between the NATIONALISM And PATRIOTISM of the Iraqis, versus the IMPERIALISM and EXPANSIONISM of the TYRANT JINGO George W.(orst war leader in modern history) Bush ....

And world history contines to be made, as I write these very words in here ....

Which takes me back to an article that I recall posting back in the John Kerry Forum before this one, which I have never succeeded in retrieving from GOOGLE searches since then ...

In that article, which was main-stream, a BUSHITE openly bragged that the BUSHITES didn't need to know ****-ALL about world history, since the BUSHITES were going to write the history that the world was going to be reading about, instead ....

And boy, was that guy ever PRESCIENT ....

AND HE WAS TOTALLY UNCHALLENGED IN THE MSM, AS WELL ....

BUSHITE (to MSM): "WE ARE GOING TO BE THE ONES WHO WRITE WORLD HISTORY, SO WE DON'T NEED TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAS GONE ON BEFORE US!"

MSM (sheepishly): "AH, OKAY!"

JUDITH MILLER: "HEY, WAIT A ******* MINUTE, I WANT IN ON THAT; HOW MUCH IS IT WORTH FOR ME TO HELP YOU DO THAT?"

RUSH LIMBAUGH: "ME, TOO, I WANT IN!"

And now, here we are ....

I think that Nostradamus actually predicted all of this, or at least people who think that they can decipher his prophecies state or strongly imply that he did ...

And that was back in the 1970's, if I recall right ....

I remember reading it back then, and saying to myself, "WHAT FOOL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH WOULD START WORLD WAR III OVER A FEW ACRES OF SAND IN THE DESERTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST?"

And now ....

Well ....

Who knows, I guess ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 03:45 PM) *
AND WHAT IS UP WITH MERCENARIES GETTING HONORED BY OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY HERE IN AMERICA?

HOW DO MERCENARIES COME TO BE ANYWHERE IN OUR MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND IN POSITIONS OF RANK AND HONOR?

WHAT NATION ARE WE BECOMING HERE, THAT OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY NOW GIVES HONOR AND TRIBUTE TO MERCENARIES?

And so ...

"Freed US hostage denounces Colombian rebels - US hostage freed after years of captivity in Colombia denounces revolutionary group"

By ELIZABETH WHITE, Associated Press

Last updated: 6:52 p.m., Monday, July 7, 2008

FORT SAM HOUSTON, Texas -- Among the smiles and hugs shared by three American hostages freed last week from rebels in Colombia and their families, one of the men on Monday angrily denounced their captors as "terrorists with a capital 'T.'"

Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years, refuses to acknowledge human rights and rejects democracy.

"I want to send a message to the FARC," Gonsalves said.

"FARC, you guys are terrorists."

The men waved as they got a lengthy standing ovation from uniformed military in the audience.

And in the meantime, we are now confronted with the SPECTACLE of what used to be OUR American military giving a STANDING OVATION to a MERCENARY for calling people in Columbia TAY-RISTS with a capital "T" ....

It is now as if TAY-RISTS came like coffee in different size containers or jars or bags, or whatever ....

"AH, OVER HERE, WE HAVE YOUR MEASLY-SIZE TAY-RISTS WITH A SMALL "t", WHILE OVER HERE, NOW, WE HAVE THE NEW ECONOMY-PACKAGE JUMBO-SIZED TAY-RISTS WITH A CAPITAL "T"!"

A MERCENARY getting a standing ovation from George W. Bush's uniformed miiltary in the USA reminds me of the SS in Gerrmany standing higher in the political hierarchy than the uniformed German miiltary in the Germany of Hitler back in the 1940's ....

POLITICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL PURITY WILL BE IMPOSED UPON THE UNIFORMED MILITARY BY THE ARMED WING OF "THE PARTY" ....

HISTORY developing to the right of us ...

HISTORY developing to the left of us ....

HISTORY developing all around us ....

And here in the middle we all sit ....

WHICH SIDE WIIL YOU BE ON, rla?

Those who are for DEMOCRACY?

Or will you go down with the REPUBLIC?

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 08:28 AM) *
And in the meantime, we are now confronted with the SPECTACLE of what used to be OUR American military giving a STANDING OVATION to a MERCENARY for calling people in Columbia TAY-RISTS with a capital "T" ....

It is now as if TAY-RISTS came like coffee in different size containers or jars or bags, or whatever ....

"AH, OVER HERE, WE HAVE YOUR MEASLY-SIZE TAY-RISTS WITH A SMALL "t", WHILE OVER HERE, NOW, WE HAVE THE NEW ECONOMY-PACKAGE JUMBO-SIZED TAY-RISTS WITH A CAPITAL "T"!"

A MERCENARY getting a standing ovation from George W. Bush's uniformed miiltary in the USA reminds me of the SS in Gerrmany standing higher in the political hierarchy than the uniformed German miiltary in the Germany of Hitler back in the 1940's ....

POLITICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL PURITY WILL BE IMPOSED UPON THE UNIFORMED MILITARY BY THE ARMED WING OF "THE PARTY" ....

HISTORY developing to the right of us ...

HISTORY developing to the left of us ....

HISTORY developing all around us ....

And here in the middle we all sit ....

WHICH SIDE WIIL YOU BE ON, rla?

Those who are for DEMOCRACY?

Or will you go down with the REPUBLIC?

And so ...

If these guys were being celebrated don't you think it was for their status of being rescued hostages as opposed to being DEA contractors?

BTW, I have something personal against those SOB "Tay-rists" in Colombia, as a FARC vermin made a cowardly threat to my brother-in-law over the phone, trying to extort money from him.
Snuffysmith
William Cormier: Independence Day Turned Into Our Worst Nightmare
The news I read this Independence Holiday is shocking to the core! We've had events transpire and attention drawn to others that should outrage every American that begins adding up this holiday's revelations. We've been celebrating a ghost of democracy past – not the reality of America today. When will "enough be enough" and Americans band together to change our march toward total fascism?
Snuffysmith
NYT Editorial: Compromising the Constitution Supporters argue the new bill still requires a warrant for eavesdropping that “targets” an American. That’s a smokescreen. The real reason this bill exists is because Mr. Bush decided after 9/11 that he was above the law. When The Times disclosed his warrantless eavesdropping, Mr. Bush demanded that Congress legalize it after the fact.

ConcernedObserver
Just some thoughts to ponder...

In war, things are rarely what they seem. Culling data from various sources this is a microcosm of the costs and the waste of precious opportunities to heal the world's problems caused by this misbegotten war.

Back in 2003, in the days leading up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the Pentagon adamantly insisted that the war would be a relatively cheap one. Roughly $50 billion is all it would take to rid the world of Saddam Hussein, it said. And of course, "Iraqi oil would cover most of those costs ".

We now know this turned out to be the first of many miscalculations. The war in Iraq has cost American taxpayers nearly $500 billion, never mind the cost in human life, and those numbers are growing every day.

But it's still not even close to the true cost of the war. As the invasion's price tag balloons, economists and analysts estimate the entire financial burden of the Iraq campaign, including indirect expenses that Americans will be paying long after the troops come home. What they've come up with is staggering. Once you factor in things like medical costs for injured troops, higher oil prices and replenishing the military, the war will cost America upwards of $2 trillion. That doesn't include any of the costs incurred by Iraq, or America's coalition partners.

It's hard to comprehend just how much money $2 trillion is. But, once you begin to look at what that money could buy, the worldwide impact of fighting this largely unpopular war becomes clear.

Consider that, with that same money the world could:

Eliminate extreme poverty around the world (cost $135 billion in the first year, rising to $195 billion by 2015.)

Achieve universal literacy (cost $5 billion a year.)

Immunize every child in the world against deadly diseases (cost $1.3 billion a year.)

Ensure developing countries have enough money to fight the AIDS epidemic (cost $15 billion per year.)

In other words, for a cost of $156.3 billion this year alone – less than a tenth of the total Iraq war budget – we could lift entire countries out of poverty, teach every person in the world to read and write, significantly reduce child mortality, while making huge leaps in the battle against AIDS, saving millions of lives.

The implications of this cannot be underestimated. It means that a better and more just world is far from unreachable, if we are willing to shift our priorities.

If America and other nations were to spend as much on peace as they do on war, that would help root out the poverty, hopelessness and anti-Western sentiment that can fuel terrorism – exactly what the Iraq war was supposed to do.

And while all these numbers are pondered... Afghanistan and Pakistan are rebuilding Al Queda's strength while we continue to make all these problems infinitely more intense, aiding and abetting in creating more intense hatred of all we stand for and take such pride in heralding as the only way to achieve peace on this planet.

Do we all have IQ quotients of minus 10 ?

But hey, we can all wave flags and spout patriotic slogans.. that won't solve a damn thing but maybe it feels good to some.
Marine
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 08:07 AM) *
If these guys were being celebrated don't you think it was for their status of being rescued hostages as opposed to being DEA contractors?

BTW, I have something personal against those SOB "Tay-rists" in Colombia, as a FARC vermin made a cowardly threat to my brother-in-law over the phone, trying to extort money from him.

US seeks Farc rebels' extradition

Colombia has promised to respond swiftly to an extradition request
The US is to ask Colombia to extradite two Farc rebels captured during last week's rescue of 15 hostages, among them three Americans, officials say.

The head of Colombia's military, Gen Freddy Padilla, said the government would support such a request.

The rebels are accused of belonging to a terrorist group and kidnapping.

The Colombian government has meanwhile indicated it is ready for direct contact with the rebels to seek the freedom of scores of other hostages.

The two Farc guerrillas were detained during the 2 July operation that freed the hostages.

They are Gerardo Antonio Aguilar Ramirez, alias Cesar, and Alexander Farfan Suarez, known as Enrique Gafas.

They face charges of belonging to a terrorist group and holding hostages, among them US defence contractors Marc Gonsalves, Thomas Howes and Keith Stansell who were captured in 2003 after their plane crashed in the Colombian jungle.

The other freed hostages included French-Colombian politician Ingrid Betancourt and 11 soldiers.

Contacts

Gen Padilla told reporters that Colombia would act quickly upon formal receipt of a US extradition request.


The three Americas were held for nearly five years

Colombia's peace commissioner has said that the government is set to move forward with steps to seek direct contacts with the Farc in the wake of the hostages' rescue.

"The decision that we have made, following the liberation of Ingrid, the three Americans and the members of our security forces, is to put efforts in motion to make direct contact," said Luis Carlos Restrepo.

Mr Restrepo also indicated that the government no longer had complete confidence in two envoys from France and Switzerland, who have been trying to broker an accord leading to the release of high-profile hostages.

"We believe we have to re-evaluate. There are problems with some of the present facilitators," Mr Restrepo said.

"We have the Farc fractured and we would prefer direct contact, among other things, to talk about peace."

The government's announcement followed the emergence of a communique said to be from the Farc's new leader, Alfonso Cano, in which he indicated the group was still ready for contacts with the government.

The letter was signed in June, before the military operation that led to the rescue of the 15 hostages.




rla
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 8 2008, 07:26 PM) *
Thoughts on Independence Day 2006 from Pat Buchanan

An Independent Republic Still?
by Patrick J. Buchanan Two hundred thirty years have elapsed since Jefferson's document was signed in Philadelphia, declaring the 13 colonies to be independent forever of the England of George III.

In his Farewell Address, Washington defined independence in a single sentence: "It is our true policy to steer clear of any permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world."

Jefferson echoed the father of his country, declaring America's policy to be one of "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none."

Adams thought his greatest achievement was that he prevented a naval war with France from degenerating into all out-war with Napoleon, and had severed America's 1778 alliance with Paris. Not for 150 years would the United States enter another permanent alliance, NATO, in the extraordinary situation that was the Cold War.

It was because America remained independent of the alliances of Europe – the Triple Entente of Britain, France, and Russia, and Triple Alliance of Germany, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Italy – that Americans did not arrive on the battlefields of the Great War of 1914-1918 until six months before the Armistice. America lost 116,000 soldiers in that bloodbath, but avoided the horrendous casualties that killed the Austro-Hungarian, German, Russian, and Ottoman empires, and forever wounded the British and French.

America emerged the most powerful nation and greatest creditor on earth, as a Senate wisely rejected both the Versailles Treaty and a League of Nations set up to enforce its dishonorable terms.

World War II began Sept. 3, 1939, when Britain declared war on Germany to honor a guarantee Neville Chamberlain had given to Poland. France fell in the late spring of 1940, as the British were hurled off the Continent. Stalin's prison house of nations was invaded in June of 1941. Untold millions in Central and Eastern Europe perished.

Free of alliances, the Americans did not even land in France until five years after the war began, only 11 months before its end in Europe.

No European empire survived these wars. No great European nation was left undiminished. These wars ended Europe's role as shaper of world history.

Thus it was that America emerged as first nation on earth, the most self-sufficient republic in history, undisputed leader of the West. For 40 years of Cold War against a Soviet Empire, America drew a red line across Europe and told Moscow not to cross it. Nor did we cross it the other way to liberate Eastern Europe, when the Hungarian Revolution broke out in 1956, the Prague Spring was crushed by Russian tanks in 1968, or Solidarity was smashed on Moscow's orders in 1981.

Unlike the British and French who declared war over Poland in 1939, Americans did not think Eastern Europe worth the risk of a new world war. We waited patiently for the evil empire to collapse, and collapse it did under steady pressure from Reagan's America. Patience paid off, for, as Reagan always believed, time was on our side, time was on the side of freedom. It still is.

Today, however, the independent foreign policy of Washington and Jefferson, the noninterventionist policy of Eisenhower and Reagan – of peace through strength, of staying out of wars where U.S. interests are not imperiled, of keeping one's powder dry unless the United States were attacked – is derided as cowardly isolationism.

So, with the end of the Cold War did not come the end of the Cold War alliances, but their permanent extension, and the addition of new allies, until it is probably not possible for a major war to break out anywhere on earth today without the United States being involved from Day One.

Alliances are transmission belts of war. Temporary ones, like the French alliance of 1778 and the NATO alliance of 1949, may be necessary, but a wise republic terminates those entanglements when the crisis is ended – and restores its freedom of action to decide when, where, and whether to go to war, and not have that decision made by some 50-year-old treaty.

That is what the Founding Fathers taught, and what America believed, to her benefit, for most of her history.

But if the Founding Fathers were to come back to life and to be asked, "Whom does the America of 2006 resemble more, the republic you created or the empire from which you broke away?" is there any doubt how they would have to answer?

America today is more dependent on foreign fuel, foreign goods, foreign loans, and foreign allies than she has ever been. Her worldwide commitments have never been greater, nor has her global and national debt.

Yet her leaders still seek to embed America every more deeply in global institutions from the WTO to the United Nations to the North American Union.

This is not the road on which the Founding Fathers set out, but it is a familiar road, one taken before by every empire in history.

Thoughts on Independence Day, 2006.

A Great Read. However, it ends with a false dychotomy. No matter how the World has changed,
Nothing in History nor the best view of the best Futurists supports an Interventionist Foreign Policy.
I also see absolutly nothing that disputes the absolute soverignity of the individual Person and
the individual Nation. We need to make much more use of our human relations and marketing skills.
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 07:28 AM) *
And in the meantime, we are now confronted with the SPECTACLE of what used to be OUR American military giving a STANDING OVATION to a MERCENARY for calling people in Columbia TAY-RISTS with a capital "T" ....

It is now as if TAY-RISTS came like coffee in different size containers or jars or bags, or whatever ....

"AH, OVER HERE, WE HAVE YOUR MEASLY-SIZE TAY-RISTS WITH A SMALL "t", WHILE OVER HERE, NOW, WE HAVE THE NEW ECONOMY-PACKAGE JUMBO-SIZED TAY-RISTS WITH A CAPITAL "T"!"

A MERCENARY getting a standing ovation from George W. Bush's uniformed miiltary in the USA reminds me of the SS in Gerrmany standing higher in the political hierarchy than the uniformed German miiltary in the Germany of Hitler back in the 1940's ....

POLITICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL PURITY WILL BE IMPOSED UPON THE UNIFORMED MILITARY BY THE ARMED WING OF "THE PARTY" ....

HISTORY developing to the right of us ...

HISTORY developing to the left of us ....

HISTORY developing all around us ....

And here in the middle we all sit ....

WHICH SIDE WIIL YOU BE ON, rla?

Those who are for DEMOCRACY?

Or will you go down with the REPUBLIC?

And so ...

If it comes to sides, I want to be on your side. I don't think the decision we make, as a Nation,
about whether to continue an Interventionist Foreign Policy or Stop and do something else, relates
directly to our internal democracy-republic issues, which will eventually effect our way of managing ourselves in a Self-governing social system.
rla
Some of the things we've been discussing in this thread also relate to my thread on the Continuum
of Connectivity. I invite the reader to check this out and contribute.
Snuffysmith
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 03:41 PM) *
A Great Read. However, it ends with a false dychotomy. No matter how the World has changed,
Nothing in History nor the best view of the best Futurists supports an Interventionist Foreign Policy.
I also see absolutly nothing that disputes the absolute soverignity of the individual Person and
the individual Nation. We need to make much more use of our human relations and marketing skills.


I think you misread the end of the article. He's not supporting an interventionist foreign policy. On the contrary, he views that as empire building and that is not his political goal as a conservative or a libertarian.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 07:07 AM) *
If these guys were being celebrated don't you think it was for their status of being rescued hostages as opposed to being DEA contractors?

Well, I don't assume ...

As a former member of the United States military of the United States of America, I do not believe that I would give a standing ovation to a MERCENARY, however "American" he alleged himself to be, NOR would I ever have been asked to by MY CHAIN OF COMMAND ...

At that time, there was a pretty universal DISGUST with MERCENARIES throughout the CIVILIZED WORLD for ALL THE TURMOIL that they had and were causing in the WORLD up to that time ....

MERCENARIES in Africa are what come readily to MY MIND ...

And then, there was OUR own history with them right here in OUR America ....

MERCENARIES FIGHT FOR MONEY!

Their loyalty is always to who pays them ...

THEY ARE SWORDS FOR HIRE!

Highest bidder, always .....

NATIONS DIE BECAUSE MERCENARIES ARE GENERALLY THE ONES WHO CAN BE COUNTED ON TO SELL THEM OUT ....

Soooo ....

If I was a uniformed American soldier on a U.S. Army base, THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A CEREMONY, BECAUSE A MERCENARY WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED ON BASE ...

HE OR SHE WOULD HAVE NO CAUSE OR REASON TO BE THERE ...

Being an American who had been kidnapped somewhere would not be a CAUSE to allow you on base ....

IN THE MILTARY, YOU WALK GUARD MOUNT, AND WHEN YO DO, YOU HAVE STANDING AND SPECIFIC ORDERS ...

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AGAINST THOSE ORDERS TO LET PASS A MERCENARY, UNLESS HE HAD SPECIFIC AUTHORIZATION FROM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND TO BE THERE ...

Conversely, IF this MERCENARY was being HONORED in town as a MERCENARY, and I went there to that HONORING OF A MERCENARY as a soldier, I could find myself under investigation for questionable loyalty ...

IF there was a ceremony in town that was intended to be a prayer session of thankfulness that a fellow human being had been released from a horrific captivity in a foreign land, then I could go to that in CIVILIAN clothes .....

NOW, the world has been turned TOTALLY UPSIDE DOWN ....

Now, either there are no longer guard mounts, OR ...

Those who are on guardmount have been told to pass the MERCENARIE$ or civilians through ....

And now, those guards are turning out to be more MERCENARIE$ ...

And I heard this Gonsalves speak on the radio ....

He clearly was not speaking as a mere civilian ....

He was speaking as a HIRED GUN ....

There is BIG MONEY for him IF FARC are considered as JUMBO LARGE-SIZE CAPITAL "T" TAY-RISTS, instead of the MERE JUMBO SMALL, small "t" variety ....

This Gonsalves can likely pull down much more than a $100 GRAND from OUR U.S. TREASURY IF HE CAN GET AN OPERATION MOUNTED AGAINST FARC ....

And there are the villages to destroy ...

Good for BID-NESS that, if you are in the ARMS BID-NE$$, which is the BID-NE$$ that MERCENARIE$ are in ...

Gonsalves is interferring in the internal affairs of another sovereign nation FOR MONEY, and now, HE WANTS TO INVOLVE THE USA IN THOSE INTERNAL AFFAIRS ....

AND THE HIRED AMERICAN BUSHIAN MILITARY IS CHEERING HIM ON, BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE MONEY SITTING AROUND OUTSIDE A COMBAT ZONE ...

And Arneoker, YOU HAVE A GREAT BIG RAGING HARD-ON AGAINST FARC BECAUSE OF A FAMILY FEUD ....

SOOOOOO ....

IN YOUR NEW-AGE DEMOCRACY, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENGAGE THE SERVICES OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY AS A PRIVATE ARMY ON YOUR SIDE IN THE FEUD TO GET SOME REVENGE AND SCORE SOME COUP FOR YOUR FAMILY ...

AND ....

IN YOUR NEW-AGE DEMOCRACY, WHERE THIS IS NOW A BID-NESS TRANSACTION, YOU CAN HIRE OUT A SOLDIER AND SARGEANT TO SUPERVISE HIM, OR YOU CAN RENT OUT AN ENTIRE COMPANY, OR BATTALION WITH SUPPORT TO SETTLE YOUR FEUD FOR YOU, SO LONG AS YOU HAVE THE MONEY ...

I don't make VALUE JUDGMENTS, Arneoker ....

YOU CALL THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT A GOOD THING, BECAUSE FOR YOU, HIRING AN ARMY TO SETTLE YOUR FAMILY GRUDGE FOR YOU FREES YOU UP TO DO OTHER THINGS ...

And you don't have to travel down there to get your own hands dirty ....

WIN-WIN, ain't it?

GOD BLESS COR-PRATE MURKA AND DEMOCRACY!

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 07:07 AM) *
BTW, I have something personal against those SOB "Tay-rists" in Colombia, as a FARC vermin made a cowardly threat to my brother-in-law over the phone, trying to extort money from him.

I know that, Arneoker ....

If that was me, I'd a starting salivating, and I'd a told them, BE RIGHT ON DOWN, boys, STAY RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE ...

And then, there'd a likely been some MAYHEM ...

And they would never try to come **** with me again ...

And that would be that ....

And I wouldn't be bragging about it ....

It just would have happened ....

Like a tree falling in the woods ...

But that is just me ....

And there is where we differ, Arneoker, in our outlooks here ....

I take care of myself and you need outside assistance ...

And now, in this NEW-AGE DEMOCRACY OF YOURS .....

You can HIRE the U.S. Army or a sub-component of it, with Marine as a CONSULTANT, and you can have them SETTLE THAT SCORE for you, instead of you having to do it for yourself ....

Pick a number, Arneoker?

How many do you want killed?

Or would you rather them tortured, with a movie made for you on high quality film so that you could put in on YOU-TUBE?

How many should die, Arneoker?

BID-NE$$, dude ....

HEY!

THEY'S CAPITAL-"T" TAY-RISTS ....

WE DON'T NEED THEM AROUND ...

THEY DON'T LIKE YOUR DEMOCRACY!

THEY DON'T LIKE THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SIT HERE IN AMERICA IN YOUR PRIVATE HOME MOVIE THEATER WATCHING THEM DIE FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT, BECAUSE YOU CAN AFFORD TO GET THAT KIND OF REAL-LIFE "SNUFF" FILM MADE, AT US GUMMINT EXPENSE ....

BUT HEY!

WE'S BUDDIES, Arneoker ....

WE'S FELLOW MURKANS ....

SO I GOT TO BE ON YOUR SIDE IN THIS ....

ELSEWISE, I AM UN-PATRIOTIC AND THEREFORE SUSPECT AS BEING A SUBVERSIVE ...

SO GO FOR IT, Arneoker ....

MAKE SOME DIE!

I can't stop you, that is for sure ....

And so ...
Snuffysmith
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 04:49 PM) *
Well, I don't assume ...

As a former member of the United States military of the United States of America, I do not believe that I would give a standing ovation to a MERCENARY, however "American" he alleged himself to be, NOR would I ever have been asked to by MY CHAIN OF COMMAND ...

At that time, there was a pretty universal DISGUST with MERCENARIES throughout the CIVILIZED WORLD for ALL THE TURMOIL that they had and were causing in the WORLD up to that time ....

MERCENARIES in Africa are what come readily to MY MIND ...

And then, there was OUR own history with them right here in OUR America ....

MERCENARIES FIGHT FOR MONEY!



Their loyalty is always to who pays them ...

THEY ARE SWORDS FOR HIRE!

Highest bidder, always .....

NATIONS DIE BECAUSE MERCENARIES ARE GENERALLY THE ONES WHO CAN BE COUNTED ON TO SELL THEM OUT ....

Soooo ....

If I was a uniformed American soldier on a U.S. Army base, THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A CEREMONY, BECAUSE A MERCENARY WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED ON BASE ...

HE OR SHE WOULD HAVE NO CAUSE OR REASON TO BE THERE ...

Being an American who had been kidnapped somewhere would not be a CAUSE to allow you on base ....

IN THE MILTARY, YOU WALK GUARD MOUNT, AND WHEN YO DO, YOU HAVE STANDING AND SPECIFIC ORDERS ...

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AGAINST THOSE ORDERS TO LET PASS A MERCENARY, UNLESS HE HAD SPECIFIC AUTHORIZATION FROM THE CHAIN OF COMMAND TO BE THERE ...

Conversely, IF this MERCENARY was being HONORED in town as a MERCENARY, and I went there to that HONORING OF A MERCENARY as a soldier, I could find myself under investigation for questionable loyalty ...

IF there was a ceremony in town that was intended to be a prayer session of thankfulness that a fellow human being had been released from a horrific captivity in a foreign land, then I could go to that in CIVILIAN clothes .....

NOW, the world has been turned TOTALLY UPSIDE DOWN ....

Now, either there are no longer guard mounts, OR ...

Those who are on guardmount have been told to pass the MERCENARIE$ or civilians through ....

And now, those guards are turning out to be more MERCENARIE$ ...

And I heard this Gonsalves speak on the radio ....

He clearly was not speaking as a mere civilian ....

He was speaking as a HIRED GUN ....

There is BIG MONEY for him IF FARC are considered as JUMBO LARGE-SIZE CAPITAL "T" TAY-RISTS, instead of the MERE JUMBO SMALL, small "t" variety ....

This Gonsalves can likely pull down much more than a $100 GRAND from OUR U.S. TREASURY IF HE CAN GET AN OPERATION MOUNTED AGAINST FARC ....

And there are the villages to destroy ...

Good for BID-NESS that, if you are in the ARMS BID-NE$, which is the BID-NE$ that MERCENARIE$ are in ...

Gonsalves is interferring in the internal affairs of another sovereign nation FOR MONEY, and now, HE WANTS TO INVOLVE THE USA IN THOSE INTERNAL AFFAIRS ....

AND THE HIRED AMERICAN BUSHIAN MILITARY IS CHEERING HIM ON, BECAUSE THEY DON'T MAKE MONEY SITTING AROUND OUTSIDE A COMBAT ZONE ...

And Arneoker, YOU HAVE A GREAT BIG RAGING HARD-ON AGAINST FARC BECAUSE OF A FAMILY FEUD ....

SOOOOOO ....

IN YOUR NEW-AGE DEMOCRACY, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENGAGE THE SERVICES OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY AS A PRIVATE ARMY ON YOUR SIDE IN THE FEUD TO GET SOME REVENGE AND SCORE SOME COUP FOR YOUR FAMILY ...

AND ....

IN YOUR NEW-AGE DEMOCRACY, WHERE THIS IS NOW A BID-NESS TRANSACTION, YOU CAN HIRE OUT A SOLDIER AND SARGEANT TO SUPERVISE HIM, OR YOU CAN RENT OUT AN ENTIRE COMPANY, OR BATTALION WITH SUPPORT TO SETTLE YOUR FEUD FOR YOU, SO LONG AS YOU HAVE THE MONEY ...

I don't make VALUE JUDGMENTS, Arneoker ....

YOU CALL THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT A GOOD THING, BECAUSE FOR YOU, HIRING AN ARMY TO SETTLE YOUR FAMILY GRUDGE FOR YOU FREES YOU UP TO DO OTHER THINGS ...

And you don't have to travel down there to get your own hands dirty ....

WIN-WIN, ain't it?

GOD BLESS COR-PRATE MURKA AND DEMOCRACY!

And so ....


Amen. You're tough Liv.
Arneoker
Look Livyjr, I am an contractor that works for the U.S. Government, the same as they were. The difference is that their work was a lot more dangerous than mine. (My biggest worry is driving on the Beltway and I-270 and coming out in one piece.) We can argue over whether it is a good idea to have contractors as opposed to direct employees of the Government (civilian or military) do the kind of work they did in Colombia (for that matter we can argue over whether contractors should be doing the job that I do in Rockville, MD) but as far as I know they were doing their job. Maybe they got involved in the same kind of crap that those Blackwater security people in Iraq did, the ones who killed Iraqi civilians and faced no consequences for that, but I have not heard that, so that is thing that I don't assume.

Now I am guessing that they were applauded for being U.S. citizens who got through a long and terrible ordeal, but I don't know that. I don't know that they were applauded for being employees of Northrop Grumman either.

My personal problem with the FARC has nothing to do with a "family feud". And consider me wierd and neanderthal, but I do make value judgments when some piece of garbage calls up my brother-in-law, said piece of garbage knowing nothing about my brother-in-law except that he has some money, and says give us money or we will kidnap you. (I also have a personal problem with the right-wing AUC for a similar reason.) I consider that kind of action to be highly immoral. Quite wretched, actually.

It is the Colombian Army who is doing the work in dealing with these people. I hope that they adhere to civilized standards (they do have the media watching them, I know that for a fact that I have personally observed). But I also appreciate what they do, as most of the Colombian people seem to do. And it is their country.
Arneoker
Look Livyjr, I would just like people in Colombia, where I know some folks, to be able to live in some less fear of being kidnapped and held for years, and possibly murdered. I would like the people doing that to be neutralized, captured and given a fair trial, with the guilty serving very long prison sentences.

Such a shocking attitude, isn't it?
Livyjr
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 9 2008, 08:19 AM) *
Do we all have IQ quotients of minus 10 ?

Dick Cheney might ....

But I think, based on what I have read over these last 8 years, that that is too optimistic an estimate for George W. Bush ....

I was thinking that he was down around minus-200 ....

It could be lower than that ....

But minus-200 is what I am recalling ....

And we have Marine in here to tell us, anyway ....

He's from down that way ...

And George W. Bush is his COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF ...

So Marine would be the first to have access to the right kind of data in here of all of us ....

Let's leave it to him to tell us ....

And so ...
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