I just returned from a celebration of Independence Day with friends. One of the things we did was to read aloud the Declaration, one sentence at a time. There were things in it that I didn't remember, or never learned in the first place, so it was very timely.

And then we broke out the kazoos, because, after all, it was a celebration!!!!!

Another "game" we played: one of the hosts brought out a sample citizenship test for us all to attempt. I was lucky - I got teamed with a history major/attorney. If I'd been on my own, I'm not sure I would have passed.

Dang, a M-79 grenade launcher. Hadn't seen a Blooper in about thirty years Junior. Hated to see them go too, they are more accurate than the new model which replaced it.

Wa nt to see what they been using since the early 70s?

Uh huh. And until y'all come out of your coma about Obama I probably won't change.

To tell the truth the 4th of July now makes me sad. I no longer know my country. Now we torture and murder and no one is held accountable. Now we violate the Constitution and again no one is accountable. The Congress give immunity to those who do so. Someone needs to drag Bush to Nurenberg. That is the only way we will feel clean again.

It was good to read your expression of disappointment and dissolution for this fourth. I felt as I was the only one feeling so ashamed of my country that the fourth was not a happy celebration.
Every invite I told them I was protesting the fourth this year and did not wish to celebrate.

Looks extremely familiar...what they gave me when I went from 11B10 to 11B20.

Y'all talk all the politics y'all like. Sometimes they call ya and you decide if you are
gonna go or not. When ya come back you do what you need to do. I protested.

But, I did so with others who took the walk. I would not do so with any others.

It's nice to sit in comfort and debate, discuss, postulate...but for those who fought...
that I know...WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Granada, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan...
well they are those who I sit back and listen to. Livyjr is one, Marine is another...
different views...but vets' views. I attended a funeral of a MOH winner whom I disagreed
with (he felt the media deserted the US and we should have won in Vietnam) but
that didn't matter - because he saddled up.

War is the last vestage of international relations. I pray it will never happen again,
and yet I know there will always be wars and rumors of wars...so I remember the price
of Independence...and believe in universal service. It's ugly, bloody, unforgiveable,
but it's the price. And, I hope cell-phoned, black-berried, air-conditioned Americans
remember...because it doesn't change...the theater, the people do, but it doesn't.

Welcome home, Indianhead ...

And I thought that I was talking citizenship and PATRIOTISM in here, myself ....

Or at least I hope I was .....

Politics may be is something else, but whoever knows sometimes, and especially today ....

Life is a long walk, IH ....

I think you of all people know what I mean ....

Sometimes we lose the trail ....

Then, maybe we got to meander a bit ....

It's how it goes ...

I can remember these lessons in here that I learned when I was just a bit of thing like it was yesterday ....

IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING, THEN YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING ...

They were instilled in me by people who had either been on the "LONG WALK" themselves over in Europe, walking from a beach in France all the way over the Germany, or else island-hopping in the Pacific, or had been here waiting for word ....

Old lady up the road from me had been born right after the Civil War, and she taught me a lot about "enduring" ....

Thanks for stopping by and adding your thoughts, IH ...

I guess I'm curious how you see this thing of PATRIOTISM ....

Is it LIBERTY?

Or is it now FREEDOM?

And does PATRIOTISM now come out that little hole in the other end from the butt plate of an M-4 automatic assault rifle?

Some in America would now say that it does ...

"I'M BIGGER THAN YOU, SO I GET TO SAY WHAT GOES!"

There is patriotism for some ...

But not for me ...

I'M FOR LIBERTY, MYSELF ....

LIBERTY is an equalizer, IH ....

It protects the weak from the strong ....

The last scene in the movie A FEW GOOD MEN ....

The one Marine finally did get it, even though it took him the whole movie to get there ....

But again, that is how it goes ...

And so ...

YES, YES ....

And the meaning of that is something that I learned as a mere child, as well ...

The flag can be seen as a kind of dipper, like a water dipper ....

And OUR LIBERTY can be seen as the "water" in that dipper, since both water and LIBERTY out in the countryside are associated as being necessities for life ...

When the flag is being flown upside down, it means that OUR LIBERTY is in grave danger ....

Tip a dipper full of water upside down, and the water in it that sustains life pours out on the ground and is gone ...

Tip the flag upside down, and OUR LIBERTY pours out and is gone ....

So when someone sees the American flag being flown upside down, it is a sign to take heed - great danger abounds ....

And there is where we are today .....

And so ...

Well, to tell you the truth, david, I was feeling the same way myself, for the same reasons ....

Plus this thing of "FREEDOM" that Marine is pushing in here, as opposed to the LIBERTY for which I stand ....

FREEDOM = IMMUNITY FROM THE LAW ...

OUR U.S. military is now fighting to protect CORRUPT CORPORATIONS from the law, in much the same way that the British army was used in India to assist the private army of the British East India Company in maintaining its IRON RULE over the people of India so that it could maintain its FREEDOM to EXPLOIT them and their nation for its own benefit ...

That is the FREEDOM that Marine fights for ...

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT ...

THE STRONG HAVE THE GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO CRUSH AND EXPLOIT THE WEAK, OR ELSE GOD WOULD NOT HAVE MADE THEM SO STRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE ...

Me, on the other hand, stands against Marine and his kind, because I am for LIBERTY - THE STRONG HAVE A DUTY TO PROTECT THE WEAK ...

And in the meantime, the INTERESTS of OUR communities here in America are going right out the window, because, as Marine so succinctly states - "IT'S NOW THE 21ST CENTURY!"

And in the 21st Century, LIBERTY is being suppressed, especially under George W. Bush and the REPUBLICANS, who stand for FREEDOM, for them and theirs, and **** the rest of us ...

John McCain was fighting for the FREEDOM of that Keating SCAMMER dude, not the LIBERTY of America ...

THE LOBBYISTS NOW RULE IN AMERICA!

FREE TRADE!

Don't worry about some local rules and regulations up here, boys!

And don't worry about the environment!

And don't worry about anybody challenging your plans to POLLUTE their water and air in their communities up here!

WE HAVE THE LAWYERS, GUNS AND MONEY AND WE WILL CRUSH THEM FOR YOU!

Which is exactly how it is up here in New York State where I am ...

And then I said TO HELL WITH IT ...

I AM AN AMERICAN ...

I HAVE MY OWN VALUES UNTIL MY HEART STOPS BEATING IN MY CHEST!

So I started this thread, for the reasons expressed herein ...

In doing so, I hope that I gave you some encouragement that all is not yet lost here in America ...

That you are not alone ....

And I would hope that CO's views of the situation from out there in the CANDID WORLD would give you some encouragement, as well ....

And so ...

I celebrated AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE FROM TYRANNY DAY by being in here, talking to the CANDID WORLD about being an American, AS I SEE IT ...

I spent the day in here in a hopeful demonstration that THE PEN IN MY HAND IS STILL MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD THAT MARINE SWINGS LIKE A BERSERKER ON A RAMPAGE TO MOW DOWN ALL OPPOSITION ON EARTH TO THE GOD EMPORER GEORGE W.(orthless) BUSH, THE OLIVER CROMWELL OF OUR TIMES ...

And here I still am today ....

Still standing ...

And so ...

DEAD ON THE MONEY, rla!

And thanks for saying it in here ...

COMMON GROUND!

COMMON SENSE!

And so ...

And there is where the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA start, with ALL of those words, and not just this one or that one taken out of context ...

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.

A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

THUS IS DEFINED GEORGE W. BUSH ...

And the CANDID WORLD has never gone away ...

THEY are still out there, watching ....

That is why this thread is running in here ....

TO LET THEM KNOW THAT NOT ALL OF US HAVE FORGOTTEN WHERE IT WAS THAT WE CAME FROM IN THE FIRST PLACE!

And so ...

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT!

I AM THE DECIDER!

I AM THE SUPREME JUDGE OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD!

The history of the present King of AMERICA [George the GREATEST] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Brother, when ya take a radical approach ya get one.



photos are photos...issues are issues...if McCain is Bush, Obama is Wright.



Your guy is moderating...if his followers don't follow...where is the campaign going?

Might doesn't make right...but when you saddle-up, you do so to beat an advisary.
You don't kill non-combatants, but those who suit up - play. I believe you found the same.
And...yes...we were given the power of life and death...and decisions we made, we must live with.
It's why I'm glad I wasn't a believer going in...and remain a rebel to this day.

I defer my decisions to no man, no party, no nation...they don't have to stand
a White Throne Judgement - I do.

So IH you would SATTLE UP and do torture and murder with the Bush people? Is that your idea of duty to ones country? When I joined the military I swore to protect and defend the Constitution of the US. Please point out where in it that allows torture and murder? That is where you are wrong.

That's reassuring news. Maybe you could find some new material on Obama...the stuff you offer is old, really old.



Well, your logic draws that conclusion.....maybe you could find some new stuff to support your opinions.

I think everyone in this country understands that that picture was just dress up day as a visiting dignitary.

Whoa brother, what the hell are ya talkin' about?
Didn't torture when I could have, didn't murder when I could have.
Without repercussion, without question.

So, you think I would now? Wow...where are ya coming from?

(Amy: context. The photos were in reply to old McCain photos. Context)

David I am no warrior... but if I was I would follow IH into battle and know he at least would keep his humanity and honor.

I don't see him as moderating, I saw these stances in previous statement and think he's just expressing things differently. Then again I was looking for nuance in statements by all candidates hoping to see realism, even when you know which way to move because things are out of balance too sharp a move swamps the boat, a bad move when canoeing through whitewater.

Do you read before you respond?

Maybe you see things that have been obscured by others.

Whitewater? I've got a lot for ya in The Land of Opportunity.

The question still stands. Would any of you join the Bush army knowing what we know? IH says he would go if called. And I must say poiltics in the end gives us what kind of actions are done by our armed services. Our leadership gives direction and holds people accountable for crimes. I would have nothing to do with the Bush military. Anyone attached to Bush has no reputation left. I would look at anyone in the Bush military and wonder what crimes they are guilty of. Everyone knows crimes are allowed under Bush.

Riding Trails and watching John Adams would have been a perfect day in my imagination.
I live in a city, can't ride a horse and if I hadn't gotten cable on my internet as a Christmas present I would still be computing DSL.
An honorable holiday. I think I will go reread the Ladies of Liberty.
rla your holiday sounded perfectly refreshing even turkey on the 4th.

Crimes have been brought to light and stopped by honorable people in the military, I reject your reasoning.

There is always;






least you forget

I won't speak for IH, but for me it would depend on what I was called on to do. If to fend off an attack on this country I would say yes. If to invade a country that did not attack us I would say no. Bush has lost all credibility with me (ie; I do not believe one word coming out of his mouth or anybody willingly associated with him or his Administration). I'll go even further, I do not trust the words of anyone in this Republican Party's Leadership, nor anyone that has been promoted by his Defense Dept. to high rank in the Military. But that does not mean I would not defend this country with all its warts past and present.

In America the Military is not supposed to be a political tool, but we all know it always has been throughout the history of mankind. It is an ideal that it is not here. One we reach for. That is why I support a draft army because then politics confronts politics and the warmonger cannot raise a "politically friendly" army.

The warrior responds when his country is in need. The legitimacy of that need is supposed to be determined by the hopefully wise choices of the citizenry in electing leaders who are not evil. We have an anomoly (sp) here today with Bush and Cheney. Tyranny rears it's ugly head for the first time in America. This agonizing conundrum of the warrior is one more reason why I want them impeached.

In the movie "Gladiator" Russel Crowe who plays the Roman General Maximus is asked by the evil Tyrant's sister if he will support him. Maximus responds truthfully that he will always support "Rome". Rome is an idea not a person. Just as it should be here in America.

Just my thoughts.

MY FAVORITE

Didn't volunteer then, wouldn't now...but if I was 20 and got called?
Sure, I'd have to show. Family tradition...back to The Revolution.

Would I respect those who did prison or expatriation as an alternative?
Yes. If you are willing to pay that price...you deserve every consideration...
as do those grunts who believe in America. I believe in America before any man...
and, my conscience before any government...it's carried me...but WTF do I know?

Your belief in me would cause a personal responsibily.
I can not claim humanity and honor, because I participated.
But if you came along, we'd live or die together. That's all I could promise.
That's all I have. But you'd have it.

Think of this only males have to register for selective service...even though women are fighting and die.

I regret to inform you that in order to follow the continued foreign policy of Bush, also of John McCain , the draft would have to be implemented. As McCain was part of a generation whos service was the last war with a draft.

At some point states rights for the return of their citizen militia will demand the home protection over a foreign war.
All debate leads us to an exhausted poorly equipped long term civilian army. When this army returns our wounded soldiers they return to less then quality care and no jobs.
Soon the walking wounded again as after Vietnam will be homeless and snubbed.

The president, ( George Bush is responsible), will remain responsible for military neglect , (I believe abuse of power), forever in history.

I lived overseas for a time as a child, and I remember listening to my mother reading me the first lines of the Declaration of Independence and explaining how its ideas applied to every American, black and white and brown alike.

She told me that those words, and the words of the United States Constitution, protected us from the brutal injustices we witnessed other people suffering during those years abroad.

And I remember my grandfather's funeral at Punchbowl National Cemetery in Hawaii.

As I listened to the rifles fire in salute and the long, solemn notes of taps, as I watched the honor guard fold the flag and tenderly present it to my grandmother, I thought about the country that my grandfather was so proud to serve — a country where we have the unparalleled freedom to pursue our dreams.

That is the true genius of America.

A faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles.

We can tuck in our children at night and know that they are fed and clothed and safe from harm.

We can say and write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door.

We can have an idea and start our own businesses without paying a bribe.

In America, anything is possible.

For a young man of mixed race, without firm anchor in any community, without even a father's steadying hand, the essential American ideal — that our destinies are not written before we are born, that in America we can travel as far as our energy and talents will take us — has defined my life.

With a mother from Kansas and a father from Kenya, I know that stories like mine can happen only in the United States of America.

But each generation must understand that the blessings of freedom require our constant vigilance, and that true patriotism also means a willingness to sacrifice for our common good.

For those who have fought on the battlefield under the Stars and Stripes — for the young veterans I meet at Walter Reed Army Medical Center or those like John McCain who endured physical torment while serving our nation — no further proof of such sacrifice is necessary.

Those who have signed up to fight for our country in distant lands inspire me, just as I am inspired by those fighting for a better America here at home by teaching in underserved schools, caring for the sick in understaffed hospitals, or promoting more sustainable energy policies in their communities.

In the end, it may be this quality that best describes patriotism in my mind — not just a love of America in the abstract, but a very particular love for, and faith in, one another as Americans.

By Senator Barack Obama



The greatness of our country — its victories in war, its enormous wealth, its scientific and cultural achievements — have resulted from the toil, drive, struggle, restlessness, humor, and quiet heroism of the American people.

That is the liberty we defend — the liberty of each of us to follow our dreams.

That is the equality we seek — not an equality of results but the chance of every single one of us to make it if we try.

That is the community we strive to build — one in which we recognize we share common hopes and dreams, one in which we continue to insist that there is nothing we cannot do when we put our minds to it, and one in which we see ourselves as part of a larger story, our own fates wrapped up in the fates of all who share allegiance to America's singular creed.

By Senator Barack Obama

I guess that is so, Indianhead ....

RADICAL IS AS RADICAL DOES ....

Just as STOOOOOPID IS AS STOOOOOOOOPID DOES ....

Same same ...

But then ...

You knew that I would know that, didn't you ....

And so ...

Soooo .....

Indianhead ....

Without looking right or left, here ....

YOU HAVE JUST NOW DEFINED YOURSELF IN HERE BY THESE WORDS OF YOURS ...

AND THEY ARE YOURS ALONE ....

MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT ...

It is merely a statement of position right now, IH ...

No judgment value of any kind is yet attached ....

But by that statement ....

I PRE-JUDGE YOU IN HERE ...

And pronounce you sane and rational in my lexicon ....

AM I WRONG?

And so ...

You answered your country's call. You walked into a hell not of your own making and as far as I can tell you came out with as much honor and humanity as anyone could. I did not run when the draft came. I faced the Tribunal of NCOs and told them I would go as a Corpsman, but I would not shoot at anyone who wasn't shooting at me or my charge. They threatened to send me to jail but I would not back down. The Lottery took away all threats the day my induction notice came in the mail and listed me as available for non-combatant military service. If I had had to go in then I would have, but I would have looked to someone like you if I were there to see what I should do to retain my humanity and honor even at the cost of my life.

Now, Indianhead ....

THIS IS SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT ....

SITUATION "A" v. SITUATION "B" ....

I've saddled up a time or two as a light weapons infantryman in Viet Nam ...

And it was to always complete the mission ....

COMPLETE THE MISSION ...

If the mission was a scout, then you don't start shooting up the countryside like some BERSERK @$$**** ....

Stealth ....

Camoflage ....

Concealment ...

To complete the mission, you have to survive the mission ...

That requires judgment ....

RAMBO IS AN @$$**** ....

I wasn't no Rambo ....

Much more quiet, me ....

I didn't make all that noise ....

And I sure as hell didn't waste all the ammunition ....

And so ...

It's all a point-of-view kind of thing with me, IH ...

I'm a pooor country kid who was in the woods alone hunting at 12 .....

One shot, one kill ...

Whoever had more than 2 or 3 rounds at a time back then?

What did you have?

Boxes of the ****?

You know what I am saying here, IH?

And so ...

Plain and simple ...

Easy to understand ....

YES?

Or NO?

And once again ...

You proclaim who you are ....

And ...

You also proclaim who you are not ...

And once again ...

I PRE-JUDGE YOU TO BE SANE AND RATIONAL ....

And once again ...

AM I MISTAKEN IN THAT IMPRESSION?

Great history. Damn. You crazy SOB.
You'd have been a great corpsman.
Knowing the score meant knowing the truth.
The best didn't believe...just applied pressure
and administered morphine. That's all you could have done.

YOU DO UNTO OTHERS, IH, WHAT YOU DON'T MIND GETTING A GOOD DOSE OF IN RETURN ....

When I was in basic training, we had this little sargeant from Chicago named Natale who had just got back from Viet Nam ...

Those of us who weren't JOHN WAYNE, the GREEN BERET. or JOHNNIE RAMBO, the only man in the U.S. Army man who can lug a mini-gun and ten thousand rounds of ammo into a fire fight with him, WE LISTENED to Sargeant Natale, IH ...

Sargeant Natale had survived ....

He could say what it was like ...

And what he said was that when you got to Viet Nam as an infantryman, everything around you was Charlie's and everyone around you was CHUCK ....

And if you thought that you could be some kind of HEEEE-RO over there, and push people around ...

Or **** with them in any way ...

YOU WERE A FOOL ....

And you were worthless ....

And you were going to get people killed ....

So the surest way over there to get your STOOOOOOOPID @$$ killed was to go over there and **** with people ....

Because if Charlie didn't hit you right afterward ....

One of the people in your squad was going to blow your **** away to save everybody else in the unit ...

MILITARY JUSTICE, IH ...

It's a harsh code ....

It's not for everyone ....

IT'S A HARSH CODE PRECISELY BECAUSE WE WERE GIVEN THE POWER OF LIFE AND DEATH OVER OTHER PEOPLE ...

OTHER HUMAN BEINGS ....

LIKE US ....

That's what the M-16 rifle was all about ....

The PURPOSE of the BAYONET is to KILL, Drill Sargeant ...

Without a CODE OF JUSTICE in that situation ....

You REVERT to being cunning and dangerous animals

HEART OF DARKNESS by Joseph Conrad ...

And so ...

This following is a post on the subject of MILITARY JUSTICE IN VIET NAM that I posted on another thread ....

Since it serves to illustrate where you and I might share some COMMON GROUND here, I am going to re-post it here ...

And so ...

I was using tazvil04's "official" definition of COERCIVE DIPLOMACY ....

I used COERCIVE DIPLOMACY on some young punk in Viet Nam who had just got there and when he went out on his first patrol, had robbed an old woman of some gold and had got her to screaming and crying and making a lot of noise .....

When they got back, a friend of mine told me what had happened, so I went over to the entrance of that guy's bunker with my rifle loaded, and I called him out to have a talk with me ...

Our bunkers all had a jog in the entrance so that shrapnel or rockets or whatever couldn't go straight into the bunker with you ....

So when that punk crawled around the corner, I caught him hard with the muzzle of my rifle right between his eyes, and bent his head back on his neck, and then I used COERCIVE DIPLOMACY on him ....

I told him what I had heard he had done out there, and how such actions would result in one of us getting killed, so I was going to take the "LEAST COST" option, myself ....

I was going to kill him, then and there .....

If somebody had to die because of what he did to that old lady, by my reckoning, it might as well be him ....

And I was entirely serious ....

And I told the punk that he was in control of the situation ....

He could control whether or not I pulled the trigger and blew out his brains by making a real sincere promise to get the gold back to the old lady, and to never ever again think of ******* with any Vietnamese villagers while I was around ...

Now, that was text-book COERCIVE DIPLOMACY as I see it, because:

a) the threat to blow out his brains was very credible in that I was locked and loaded;

b) the adverse consequence was indeed severe enough so that the actual recipient in that particular case ended up really wanting to avoid that outcome; and

c) my demand of him was very clear and it was indeed possible for him to meet ....

So, in that case, COERCIVE DIPLOMACY was the way to go for me, anyway ....

GET RIGHT DOWN TO THE BASIC BOTTOM LINE IN A HURRY ....

No small talk or beating around the bush ...

If I was going to the market, however, to buy a chicken, and there was more than one guy selling chickens, probably, I would choose to do some negotiating, instead ...

So that is kind of how I see the use of COERCIVE DIPLOMACY in daily life when dealing with mature adults, myself ....

And because I can and will use it, I never have to ....

I find treating people nice generally works better in most situations ....

Especially when buying chickens at the market ...

And so ...

IH is not wrong, because IH does not CONDONE unlawful acts ....

TORTURE and MURDER are and remain UNLAWFUL ACTS in the U.S. military, despite George W. Bush and all of his White House LAWYERS ....

IH does not condone MURDER ...

He has said that ...

So don't put IH were he don't belong on that score ....

You are being hasty in your judgment of IH here, and it skews the conversation in here away from its stated purpose of ON PATRIOTISM ...

And I had that very same conversation about MURDER and TORTURE with a Lt. Col. in Viet Nam in 1969 ...

I was just a PFC at the time .....

The "wrongness" of the mission ....

The "UN-AMERICAN-NESS" of the mission ....

My argument was sound ....

We were committing murder, and I would no longer partake of it ....

Because you cannot be ordered by a superior in the United States military under OUR CONSTITUTION to commit murder ....

It is an UNLAWFUL ORDER ....

The Lt.Col. said, "YES, YOU ARE RIGHT!"

And all these years later, here we all are, having this very chat ....

And so ...

Well ....

You know what you know, IH ....

And all of what you don't yet know, well, that you are as of yet ignorant of ....

And how can you believe in "America before any man"?

Not to quibble, but that is a contradiction in many terms ....

America is simply a place, IH ...

Without its various peoples, it is just empty land ....

Because you have LIBERTY, of course, you can choose to see "AMERICA" however you please ....

As the Dalai Lama says: "TEN THOUSAND MEN, TEH THOUSAND RELIGIONS" ....

I find that to be true, myself ....

DIVERSITY ......

In ecology, it is a sign of health of the environment .....

Sameness is a sign of stagnation and ill-health .....

And so ...

Cover your soul. I believe you did...and thus the war repulses you.
Thank God for loyalty to principal...without it we'd all be lost. At least
those of us who pariticpated. It's a fine line...a fine line.

I'll admit I was wrong to participate. I was. I weep for those little
yellow people frequently...and yet respect their ferocity. They died
so well...that they varified our own.

It, however, serves in no way to address anything in here about PATRIOTISM ....

Or does it?

I'm missing how ...

I think it distracts, myself ....

And so ...

Concerned Observer, who is a Canadian, and part of the CANDID WORLD out there, posted these words on "AMERICA" elsewhere ....

As I believe they are directly relevant to this discussion in here right now, I am going to take the LIBERTY to re-post them in this discussion, which I do not want to degenerate into some grade school level food fight ...

And so .....

A thought to ponder.

I know US citizens feel ownership in the term "America".

I accept that as being so even though we all live in "North America" and are a part of the whole.

We are all on this continent .. Americans.

Just living in different areas of the whole under different national labels.

We are Canada.

You are the United States .. but we all can lay claim to being Americans.

Just geographically separate in nationality but two parts of a whole in the overall scheme of things.

JEDBURGH JUSTICE: summary justice inflicted upon a marauder or felon without a regular trial, equivalent to "lynch law" ....

Black's Law Dictionary

JINGOISM: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked esp. by a belligerent foreign policy ...

CHAUVINISM: excessive or blind patriotism ....

BELLIGERENT: inclined to or exhibiting assertiveness, hostility or combativeness ....

- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

Canada landed on D-Day.

Canada welcomed dissidents from our war.

She has place. A beautiful country, I respect...
in which my step-daughter emersed herself in the French language.

She's a close ally...and eneregy supplier. How ya gonna diss Maple Leafers?

They are the conscience to our strength. Appropritate...and yes, C.O. has the same place
as Southerners...who experienced integration as a mass change...while others didn't
experience Black Fridays at school...with white high school girls listed on bulletin
boards as targets for hair cutting...black retributon. I understand they did not have
such...and hope they understand those who did in Jacksonville, FLA.

I'm with you on that, cutecat .....

rla reveals himself to be quite an interesting and accomplished person in here ....

HIGHEST AND BEST PURPOSE ....

BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE ....

I would say that rla is on the path ....

And that to me is THE AMERICAN WAY as I know it ....

God bless your America, rla ....

All sounds quite peaceful and harmonious in your land ....

You're not at war with anyone there, it sounds like .....

Or is your tractor heavily armored?

And do you go out to bush-hog heavily armed, as a rule?

Just curious is all, rla ....

Say, while I got you on the line in here, rla ....

For our studio audience ....

Could you clarify whether you are a white-wine drinking liberal?

A red wine drinking liberal?

Or perhaps you prefer Chardonnay?

And so ....

TROU ...

With all due respect to you ...

And with your intellect, you are due much ....

You are making a MOUNTAIN out of a MOLEHILL here ...

That is in my outlook, anyway ....

If or whatever reason, we had served together back in 1969, back then, you might have found me to be a much different person ....

Who knows ...

Who can know ....

I suspect that it is the same with IH ...

We are all the ACCUMULATION of OUR separate lives ....

In a way, it demeans you in here to have to think that somehow, we military veterans in here are superior to you in any way, other than in knowledge of what we as individuals did, if or when we thought the **** was hitting the fan back then ....

I have told Marine that many, or most people, really do not belong in combat, and so they should not be there ....

It is a waste of many people's other talents in life to stick them in combat where they don't belong and won't survive .....

I have seen many of those people come and go, myself ...

One kid I know lasted about a week ...

Personally, I think that both John McCain and Barack Obama would be totally worthless as ground troops in combat, each for different reasons ....

But since I believe in BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE, I am totally cool with that ...

It diminishes neither in here ...

And so ...

This following post was directed to tazvil04 in another thread ...

But since, in my opinion, it serves to address the points that you are raising in here about us all taking DIFFERENT PATHS in life to get to this CGCS thread, I will re-post it in here and direct its words to you, as well ....

And I wish you to take them to heart ...

Your contribution in here is your intellect, and your knowledge of history, and philosophy ...

So you are a counter to us combat veterans in here ....

Many of us may have actually lost our humanity over there, and you perhaps are serving in here as an anchor by which we can get some back ...

And so .....

tazvil04 ...

As an American citizen and a military veteran, with respect to your comment above that "I never served my country like you all did", I would like to draw your attention to these words above here from THE SOLDIER'S HANDBOOK that was in existence here in OUR America back in 1968, to wit:

Each individual in this nation has the duty to contribute as much as he can TO THE WELL-BEING of the nation and its people.

Military service is one form of such a contribution.

end quotes

Perhaps that should be modified to read "ONLY ONE FORM OF SUCH A CONTRIBUTION BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE" ...

IF you did not serve America in the same way as I might have, then so what, really?

As an American, according to how I understand these words from THE SOLDIER'S HANDBOOK, you did not have to, nor were you required to, AT ALL ...

And you are not less than I for that ...

Nor are you less than Marine ...

As an American, it is my personal belief that IF we have any common ground in this country whatsoever, that it is to be found in the pages of THE SOLDIER'S HANDBOOK, such as those words above here ...

At p. 2 of THE SOLDIER'S HANDBOOK, it states as follows:

As you look around you will not find a "typical American soldier" in height, weight, color of eyes and hair, family origin, education, wealth, intelligence or similar characteristics.

The soldiers you have met and will meet are from all walks of life and all parts of our country.

But all of you have two things in common.

First, you are all serving the United States of America and believe in the principles that make it a free country.

This not only gives you a common bond with your fellow soldiers but also guarantees you the same chances as the next man to get ahead.

This American tradition is cherished in your Army as it is in all phases of American life.

end quotes

AS IT IS IN ALL PHASES OF AMERICAN LIFE ...

ALL PHASES ...

All phases of American life includes the civilian who never served on active miltary duty ..

The American soldier is a civilian and citizen FIRST ...

Then for whatever reasons, that citizen decides to serve the country by taking an oath and standing out there SELFLESSLY on the line, with no expectation of REWARDS or HONORS or whatever ...

Somebody else decides to serve the country in a different way ...

There is you, and there is me ...

If I was going to be remembered for something, I would rather it be for what I did here in America AFTER I took off the uniform and educated myself to become a public health engineer devoted to protecting and safguarding the lives, health and property of American citizens here in America, as well as for standing up as a military veteran to support the troops by saying NO MORE ...

NO MORE LIES, George W. Bush ...

NO MORE DECEPTIONS ...

NO MORE INCOMPETENT LEADERSHIP OF OUR AMERICAN MILITARY ...

NO MORE KILLING OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD BECAUSE SOME HELL-SPAWN LKE GEORGE W. BUSH HAS NO HUMANITY ...

And there is where I am right now here in OUR America ...

And if someone wants to come and strike me down for it, send me a fax as to where to send you the bus-fare to get here ....

AND BRING IT THE **** ON ..

And so ...

Aggressive movements towards one's aims, like whirlwinds and downpours, have no lasting effect.

Violent actions cannot be sustained, and they ultimately generate reactions that neutralize their force.

THUS ....

Nature rarely speaks ....

And when it does ...

It expresses the exception that proves the rule:

THE PRINCIPLE FORCE IN NATURE IS ONE OF STEADY, HARMONIOUS TRANSFORMATION.

Personal power brings independence and freedom INTO the life of the individual, and it is continuously CULTIVATED through ATTITUDE AND PROJECTION.

WHAT ONE BELIEVES ....

ONE BECOMES ....

The more of a "mind" one has to believe with, the more profound the transformation.

POWER OVER OTHERS, CONVERSELY, IS AN INSIDIOUS FORM OF ENSLAVEMENT.

- R.L. Wing, Commentaries on the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tze