Colombia is not a Monopoly board either for those of the Left or the Right who cannot look there and realize that there are actually people there, people very much like themselves.
Livyjr, last night I called my wife who is down there right now. I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter. Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet. And she loves her Dad, and he loves her. He really does not get off on the deaths of "noble peasant fighters" or whatever concept someone may have of the Monopoly tokens which come to mind when they think of the conflict in Colombia.
Full Version: ON PATRIOTISM
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:15 AM) 
Look Livyjr, I would just like people in Colombia, where I know some folks, to be able to live in some less fear of being kidnapped and held for years, and possibly murdered.
I would like the people doing that to be neutralized, captured and given a fair trial, with the guilty serving very long prison sentences.
Such a shocking attitude, isn't it?
I would like the people doing that to be neutralized, captured and given a fair trial, with the guilty serving very long prison sentences.
Such a shocking attitude, isn't it?
No ....
Why would it be?
And good ....
What's wrong with any of that?
I'm obviously missing some kind of point here ...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:15 AM)
Look Livyjr, I would just like people in Colombia, where I know some folks, to be able to live in some less fear of being kidnapped and held for years, and possibly murdered.
I would like the people doing that to be neutralized, captured and given a fair trial, with the guilty serving very long prison sentences.
Such a shocking attitude, isn't it?
I would like the people doing that to be neutralized, captured and given a fair trial, with the guilty serving very long prison sentences.
Such a shocking attitude, isn't it?
How do MERCENARIES from the United States of America involving themselves in the INTERNAL AFFAIRS of a foreign sovereign nation for money make any of that happen?
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:10 AM)
Look Livyjr, I am an contractor that works for the U.S. Government, the same as they were.
And I was a U.S. Army infantryman in Viet Nam, and my work was a lot more dangerous and much less well-paid than yours as well ...
And if I was walking guardmount and you tried to pass by telling me that you were a "U.S. GUMMINT CONTRACTOR", I would bar your path with my rifle if you did not have proper authorization to be there ....
I don't give a **** that you are a U.S. government contractor ...
It means doodly-squat to me as an American citizen other than that you are a part of the reason my taxes are so high ...
MERCENARIES COST BIG BUCKS TO KEEP AROUND!
You going to mount an op against me, now?
Make a phone call?
Get some fellow mercenary to "reach out and touch me", right in the head, a la RUBY RIDGE?
It is just so easy to do these days, isn't it, Arneoker?
BID-NE$$, baby!
YOU GOT THE DIME, baby, HEY!
I got the time ...
And so ....
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 12:10 PM)
Amen. You're tough Liv.
Not tough Snuff. Liv just isn't into subcontracting military decisions.. with some BS is music to the ears .. which they spew at the decibal level of a brass band.. (comment not directed at anyone here.). although if I was being my usual obnoxious self I could name a couple to whom it would apply IMHO ...
There is no denying that subcontracting what should be under military command has been a major industry in Iraq and to the detriment of that debacle and to America's image around the world. He calls 'em as he sees them .. hired guns. And he is right.
As to the Columbia issue... I don't have enough knowledge on that subject to venture an informed opinion.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 12:24 PM)
How do MERCENARIES from the United States of America involving themselves in the INTERNAL AFFAIRS of a foreign sovereign nation for money make any of that happen?
They were working for DEA concerning their contract. So they were down there presumably to gather intelligence on the narcotraficantes.
Maybe we should not have the DEA working there, maybe we should, but they set the policy on that no more than I decide what diseases and areas of health the National Institutes of Health should be focusing on.
Maybe they were perpetrating atrocities and other crimes on Colombian peasants (several groups down there are in on that particular game!) with their stated mission of gathering intelligence for DEA being their cover, but I don't know that. If you have information on that I think that people would be interested in it, I know I would.
As far as I know they were not involved in fighting the FARC. But the FARC likes to kidnap potentially rich Americans on general principle. Plus these guys might have been inconveniencing friends of the FARC. (The narcotraficantes are friends of more than one group down there.)
A few years ago the FARC kidnapped a bunch of Americans down there. Fortunately they were released after a few months.
Do you have any idea what nefarious activity these Americans were engaged in?
BIRDWATCHING!
Livyjr, about the most nefarious thing I can do is lose your application for a job here, or not classify the job of your friend at a pay-grade they don't deserve.
I am not going to get into the issue of whether the DEA should be there or not. I don't know that they should have contractors involved stuff as sensitive as gathering intelligence in a foreign country. All I am saying in regards to these three guys is that they seem to have been doing their job. Maybe they were villains, and maybe you have evidence to that effect.
I am not going to get into the issue of whether the DEA should be there or not. I don't know that they should have contractors involved stuff as sensitive as gathering intelligence in a foreign country. All I am saying in regards to these three guys is that they seem to have been doing their job. Maybe they were villains, and maybe you have evidence to that effect.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:22 AM)
Colombia is not a Monopoly board either for those of the Left or the Right who cannot look there and realize that there are actually people there, people very much like themselves.
Livyjr, last night I called my wife who is down there right now.
I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter.
Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet.
And she loves her Dad, and he loves her.
He really does not get off on the deaths of "noble peasant fighters" or whatever concept someone may have of the Monopoly tokens which come to mind when they think of the conflict in Colombia.
Livyjr, last night I called my wife who is down there right now.
I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter.
Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet.
And she loves her Dad, and he loves her.
He really does not get off on the deaths of "noble peasant fighters" or whatever concept someone may have of the Monopoly tokens which come to mind when they think of the conflict in Colombia.
I'm not a Colombian, Arneoker ....
I'm an American citizen ...
So I don't think of anything at all down there that is occurring in that country internally between its various factions ...
I don't assign names ...
I don't assign values ...
I don't have a dog in that hunt down there, either way ....
My duty is to MY community ....
I have no business interfering in the internal affairs of a foreign sovereign nation like Colombia ....
NONE!
UNDER LAW, I HAVE NO STANDING THERE!
Sooooo ....
HAVING NO STANDING, I AM BREAKING THE LAW BY BEING DOWN THERE, INTERFERRING IN WHAT CLEARLY IS NOT MY BUSINESS AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN ...
I AM FOR THE LAW, Arneoker ....
Not the law of the gun ...
THE LAW IS WHAT SEPARATES US FROM THE RAVENING BEASTS, THEY SAY ....
The philosophers ....
And so ...
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 9 2008, 05:33 PM)
Not tough Snuff. Liv just isn't into subcontracting military decisions.. with some BS is music to the ears .. which they spew at the decibal level of a brass band.. (comment not directed at anyone here.). although if I was being my usual obnoxious self I could name a couple to whom it would apply IMHO ...
There is no denying that subcontracting what should be under military command has been a major industry in Iraq and to the detriment of that debacle and to America's image around the world. He calls 'em as he sees them .. hired guns. And he is right.
As to the Columbia issue... I don't have enough knowledge on that subject to venture an informed opinion.
There is no denying that subcontracting what should be under military command has been a major industry in Iraq and to the detriment of that debacle and to America's image around the world. He calls 'em as he sees them .. hired guns. And he is right.
As to the Columbia issue... I don't have enough knowledge on that subject to venture an informed opinion.
Its refreshing to hear actually. People in Washington DC and in the Congress need to hear this message. I agree with Liv about not subcontracting military decisions. I don't support subcontracting federal jobs of any kind. And I know that position is considered heresy in OMB circles and elsewhere. We landed in this monstrous subcontracting business as a consequence of major cuts in the defense budget by the Clinton Administration back in the 1990s. It seems noone wanted to pay the costs for full time federal employees, so now we backdoor it with subcontracting.
Well they have the law in Colombia too. It is a country of people, not ravening beasts.
Just because I know people there does not mean I can ask this country to have some special concern for Colombia. Now I happen to favor aid to Colombia, but then I favor aid to a lot of places. But that is a different issue. Bottom line is we have to take care of ourselves first, and they have to take care of themselves first.
But please excuse me for caring about what is going on down there, because it affects people I care about.
Just because I know people there does not mean I can ask this country to have some special concern for Colombia. Now I happen to favor aid to Colombia, but then I favor aid to a lot of places. But that is a different issue. Bottom line is we have to take care of ourselves first, and they have to take care of themselves first.
But please excuse me for caring about what is going on down there, because it affects people I care about.
Maybe we should separate "war" (and all potential armed conflicts) and "business" to the extent possible. The history of that marriage is sordid and blood soaked.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 03:45 PM)
AND WHAT IS UP WITH MERCENARIES GETTING HONORED BY OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY HERE IN AMERICA?
HOW DO MERCENARIES COME TO BE ANYWHERE IN OUR MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND IN POSITIONS OF RANK AND HONOR?
WHAT NATION ARE WE BECOMING HERE, THAT OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY NOW GIVES HONOR AND TRIBUTE TO MERCENARIES?
And so ...
"Freed US hostage denounces Colombian rebels - US hostage freed after years of captivity in Colombia denounces revolutionary group"
By ELIZABETH WHITE, Associated Press
Last updated: 6:52 p.m., Monday, July 7, 2008
FORT SAM HOUSTON, Texas -- Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years, refuses to acknowledge human rights and rejects democracy.
The military said the hostages would take no questions from reporters.
The men waved as they got a lengthy standing ovation from uniformed military in the audience.
HOW DO MERCENARIES COME TO BE ANYWHERE IN OUR MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND IN POSITIONS OF RANK AND HONOR?
WHAT NATION ARE WE BECOMING HERE, THAT OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY NOW GIVES HONOR AND TRIBUTE TO MERCENARIES?
And so ...
"Freed US hostage denounces Colombian rebels - US hostage freed after years of captivity in Colombia denounces revolutionary group"
By ELIZABETH WHITE, Associated Press
Last updated: 6:52 p.m., Monday, July 7, 2008
FORT SAM HOUSTON, Texas -- Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years, refuses to acknowledge human rights and rejects democracy.
The military said the hostages would take no questions from reporters.
The men waved as they got a lengthy standing ovation from uniformed military in the audience.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:39 AM)
All I am saying in regards to these three guys is that they seem to have been doing their job.
Maybe they were villains, and maybe you have evidence to that effect.
Maybe they were villains, and maybe you have evidence to that effect.
Let them be honored somewhere other than a U.S. Army base ...
THEY ARE MERCENARIES!
And while you call them CIA contractors, the media is calling them MILITARY CONTRACTORS ...
Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years .....
And it was the U.S. Army that was keeping them from talking to THE PRESS!
HUSH!
TOP SECRET!
DON'T ASK!
CAN'T TELL!
A world of difference, Arneoker ...
The CIA is NOT THE MILITARY ...
Or am I wrong?
Is it now?
AND HOW IS THAT LAWFUL UNDER THE CIA CHARTER?
And so ...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 12:44 PM)
Its refreshing to hear actually. People in Washington DC and in the Congress need to hear this message. I agree with Liv about not subcontracting military decisions. I don't support subcontracting federal jobs of any kind. And I know that position is considered heresy in OMB circles and elsewhere. We landed in this monstrous subcontracting business as a consequence of major cuts in the defense budget by the Clinton Administration back in the 1990s. It seems noone wanted to pay the costs for full time federal employees, so now we backdoor it with subcontracting.
I agree. Liv pulls no punches.. he left the BS brass band in Nam I think.
Some may not like what they hear but its a straight bill of goods he's offering. Take it or leave it. Your choice.
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 9 2008, 10:44 AM)
Maybe we should separate "war" (and all potential armed conflicts) and "business" to the extent possible.
The history of that marriage is sordid and blood soaked.
Just my opinion.
The history of that marriage is sordid and blood soaked.
Just my opinion.
YOUR OPINION COUNTS, TROU ...
As would your silence ....
Tell you what, dude ....
You get the scalpel ....
And if it isn't too dull ....
I'll do the cutting and separating ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 05:54 PM)
YOUR OPINION COUNTS, TROU ...
As would your silence ....
Tell you what, dude ....
You get the scalpel ....
And if it isn't too dull ....
I'll do the cutting and separating ....
And so ...
As would your silence ....
Tell you what, dude ....
You get the scalpel ....
And if it isn't too dull ....
I'll do the cutting and separating ....
And so ...
Actually Liv - the principle is the same for ALL FEDERAL jobs. The FEDERALES include Forest Service, BLM, Bureau of Reclamation, LANDSAT, mineral leasing, Army Corps of Engineers, OSHA inspectors, NRC inspectors, and the list goes on. NO SUBCONTRACTING Period.
Save the subcontracting for capital goods, machines, equipment, computers, paper, furniture, offices, hardware, boats, guns etc.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 12:51 PM)
Let them be honored somewhere other than a U.S. Army base ...
THEY ARE MERCENARIES!
And while you call them CIA contractors, the media is calling them MILITARY CONTRACTORS ...
Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years .....
And it was the U.S. Army that was keeping them from talking to THE PRESS!
HUSH!
TOP SECRET!
DON'T ASK!
CAN'T TELL!
A world of difference, Arneoker ...
The CIA is NOT THE MILITARY ...
Or am I wrong?
Is it now?
AND HOW IS THAT LAWFUL UNDER THE CIA CHARTER?
And so ...
THEY ARE MERCENARIES!
And while you call them CIA contractors, the media is calling them MILITARY CONTRACTORS ...
Marc Gonsalves said the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, which held him and two other U.S. military contractors in captivity for more than five years .....
And it was the U.S. Army that was keeping them from talking to THE PRESS!
HUSH!
TOP SECRET!
DON'T ASK!
CAN'T TELL!
A world of difference, Arneoker ...
The CIA is NOT THE MILITARY ...
Or am I wrong?
Is it now?
AND HOW IS THAT LAWFUL UNDER THE CIA CHARTER?
And so ...
I called them DEA contractors, not CIA contractors. But maybe I was wrong about what the media is calling them, as you were wrong as to what I have been calling them.
I don't know all the circumstances of that ceremony. And you know what? I am starting to get bored by that particular issue. It is becoming as uninteresting to me as Barack Obama's ex-pastor. Why should I give a flip anyway? All I know is that it did not seem all that strange that three U.S. citizens, civilians who were in a jam in a foreign country, were brought back to this country and given medical attention at a military base. I don't know all of the custom and protocol for various ceremonies, birthday parties, promotion parties, best golfer awards, whatever, at military bases. I have been to a lot of them but have never worked at any one of them for more than two or three weeks TDY. So I really don't know how appropriate or inappropriate that ceremony was.
How were the embassy hostages who were released by the Iranians treated when they got back? I would imagine that you had quite a mix there of State Department employees, the military, and some employees of private firms.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:10 AM)
And consider me wierd and neanderthal, but I do make value judgments when some piece of garbage calls up my brother-in-law, said piece of garbage knowing nothing about my brother-in-law except that he has some money, and says give us money or we will kidnap you.
HEY!
Call me weird and neanderthal, too, Arneoker ...
And if I had been there with your brother-in-law when the call came in, I'd have gotten the phone away from your brother-in-law, and I'd have told the PIECE OF GARBAGE dude that **** your brother-in-law, he's small time, and I had even more money, and I was terrified of him, so I was going to hurry right on down where he was to give him all my money ...
And after I had gotten the right address ...
Well, hell, Arneoker ....
I'd of handed the phone back to your brother-in-law ....
And I'd of gone to my appointment as planned ...
And the rest would be history ...
You don't fight TERROR with TERROR, Arneoker ....
You fight TERROR by staring it right in the face, and saying to it, "HEY, C'MON!"
It ain't a philosophical exercise with me, Arneoker ....
Nor is it hypothetical ....
And so ...
Who said we should fight terror with terror? I am simply saying that we say terror is terror, and not something else that does not sound so "judgmental", and that we should fight it somehow. Or not get all hot and bothered when someone else fights it, as long as they don't commit their own crimes of terror when they fight it.
Anyway, my father-in-law may be like you. When he got his call, from the right-wing thugs of the AUC, he got angry and told them he was not paying! And that was that.
Anyway, my father-in-law may be like you. When he got his call, from the right-wing thugs of the AUC, he got angry and told them he was not paying! And that was that.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 06:40 AM)
Well, rla ...
You have caused me to have to go back and re-think my earlier premise on VICTIM-HOOD in here ....
Generally, I am not big on adopting or using the term "VICTIM", especially with respect to myself, since I see that as the sure road to SELF-DEFEAT in life ....
"OH, BUT I AM THE VICTIM HERE ...."
But since we are talking a specific context in here, the relationship or lack or relationship between patriotism and war and nationalism and fascism and imperialism and expansionism ..
And since I was forced in here to have to admit that I got fooled on Viet Nam ...
I have to come back and re-examine things in the light of your admonition to "NOT BLAME THE DUMB PUBLIC FOR BEING DUMB"!
Was I dumb for having been fooled back in 1967?
Many people have told me so, since ...
Many have in fact called me a GOD-DAMNED FOOL for joining the U.S. Army, and for then going to Viet Nam ...
And many who call or label themselves LIBERALS up here where I am have stated that since I was a fool and went to Viet Nam, that I deserve everything that happened to me over there, including getting wounded, so that I should not be entitled to any compensation or disability benefits from the U.S. government, because they feel that that money would be better spent on one of their causes, instead ...
AND IN A DEMOCRACY, WHERE NUMBERS ALONE COUNT, MAYBE THEY WILL SUCCEED IN HAVING IT BE SO ....
Certainly, the IRAQINAM veterans are capitalizing on DEMOCRACY BIG-TIME, here in the USA ....
They have used their political clout to get older Viet Nam veterans like myself SQUEEZED OUT of the VA health care system up here where I am, so that they can get "first-in-line" privileges for themselves, an effort on their part that has been aided and abetted by such veteran's organizations as the VFW and American Legion and Military Order of the Purple Heart and Disabled American Veterans, since those organizations must pander to the IRAQINAM war veterans to keep their membership going, as older veterans like me die off and go to our "reward" ....
But I digress ....
What is on my mind is HOW can the dumb public in the United States of America be so dumb ....
Obviously, there is a major FAILURE someplace, somehow .....
OR IS THERE?
Are we being INDOCTRINATED, and we just don't know it?
If that is the case, then I am probably doubly dumb, SINCE THAT IS WHAT MY KINDERGARTEN TEACHER WAS WARNING AND ADMONISHING AGAINST ON THAT FIRST DAY OF KINDERGARTEN, WAY BACK WHEN ....
"DO YOU WANT TO HAVE TO WEAR A DUNCE'S CAP LIKE THE PEOPLE OF GERMANY DO?"
"No, teacher!"
"WELL THEN ..."
And I could understand if when I left school afterwards, somebody said to me, "AH, **** HER, SHE'S JUST A WOMAN, WHAT DOES SHE KNOW ...."
But that didn't happen, so far as I can recall ....
My bus drivers were WWII veterans ....
They weren't preaching WAR to me on the school bus ...
There were the armless and legless and blind and insane veterans of WWII in my community ...
The ones with no faces and mis-shapen heads ....
I don't recall any of them telling me to **** what that teacher was saying and go off to war because it was such a great deal ...
"HEY, KID, YOU WANT A MIS-SHAPEN HEAD LIKE ME?"
"C'MERE, I'LL TELL YOU HOW TO GET ONE ..."
So where did it all begin to go so wrong, rla?
Is it the fault of THE WHO?
They should have sang their song in the early-1950's, instead of having waited so long?
Is it the fault of the recording industry, perhaps, that they delayed the singing of that song for so long?
Or were they all fooled, too?
You have handed us a conundrum in here, rla ....
Thanks for that ....
And so ...
You have caused me to have to go back and re-think my earlier premise on VICTIM-HOOD in here ....
Generally, I am not big on adopting or using the term "VICTIM", especially with respect to myself, since I see that as the sure road to SELF-DEFEAT in life ....
"OH, BUT I AM THE VICTIM HERE ...."
But since we are talking a specific context in here, the relationship or lack or relationship between patriotism and war and nationalism and fascism and imperialism and expansionism ..
And since I was forced in here to have to admit that I got fooled on Viet Nam ...
I have to come back and re-examine things in the light of your admonition to "NOT BLAME THE DUMB PUBLIC FOR BEING DUMB"!
Was I dumb for having been fooled back in 1967?
Many people have told me so, since ...
Many have in fact called me a GOD-DAMNED FOOL for joining the U.S. Army, and for then going to Viet Nam ...
And many who call or label themselves LIBERALS up here where I am have stated that since I was a fool and went to Viet Nam, that I deserve everything that happened to me over there, including getting wounded, so that I should not be entitled to any compensation or disability benefits from the U.S. government, because they feel that that money would be better spent on one of their causes, instead ...
AND IN A DEMOCRACY, WHERE NUMBERS ALONE COUNT, MAYBE THEY WILL SUCCEED IN HAVING IT BE SO ....
Certainly, the IRAQINAM veterans are capitalizing on DEMOCRACY BIG-TIME, here in the USA ....
They have used their political clout to get older Viet Nam veterans like myself SQUEEZED OUT of the VA health care system up here where I am, so that they can get "first-in-line" privileges for themselves, an effort on their part that has been aided and abetted by such veteran's organizations as the VFW and American Legion and Military Order of the Purple Heart and Disabled American Veterans, since those organizations must pander to the IRAQINAM war veterans to keep their membership going, as older veterans like me die off and go to our "reward" ....
But I digress ....
What is on my mind is HOW can the dumb public in the United States of America be so dumb ....
Obviously, there is a major FAILURE someplace, somehow .....
OR IS THERE?
Are we being INDOCTRINATED, and we just don't know it?
If that is the case, then I am probably doubly dumb, SINCE THAT IS WHAT MY KINDERGARTEN TEACHER WAS WARNING AND ADMONISHING AGAINST ON THAT FIRST DAY OF KINDERGARTEN, WAY BACK WHEN ....
"DO YOU WANT TO HAVE TO WEAR A DUNCE'S CAP LIKE THE PEOPLE OF GERMANY DO?"
"No, teacher!"
"WELL THEN ..."
And I could understand if when I left school afterwards, somebody said to me, "AH, **** HER, SHE'S JUST A WOMAN, WHAT DOES SHE KNOW ...."
But that didn't happen, so far as I can recall ....
My bus drivers were WWII veterans ....
They weren't preaching WAR to me on the school bus ...
There were the armless and legless and blind and insane veterans of WWII in my community ...
The ones with no faces and mis-shapen heads ....
I don't recall any of them telling me to **** what that teacher was saying and go off to war because it was such a great deal ...
"HEY, KID, YOU WANT A MIS-SHAPEN HEAD LIKE ME?"
"C'MERE, I'LL TELL YOU HOW TO GET ONE ..."
So where did it all begin to go so wrong, rla?
Is it the fault of THE WHO?
They should have sang their song in the early-1950's, instead of having waited so long?
Is it the fault of the recording industry, perhaps, that they delayed the singing of that song for so long?
Or were they all fooled, too?
You have handed us a conundrum in here, rla ....
Thanks for that ....
And so ...
Isn't this Mutual Self-Help stuff Great. In 1967 I had left my School Counseling Job in the North
Georgia Mountain, back in Graduate School, thinking I had missed something on the first two go arounds...well I finished that program in time to go for a job interview, in 1968 where I collided with the Democratic Convention and I thought, "Its going to take a lot to stoomp out all this ignorance."
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:02 AM)
And you know what?
I am starting to get bored by that particular issue.
Why should I give a flip anyway?
I don't know all of the custom and protocol for various ceremonies, birthday parties, promotion parties, best golfer awards, whatever, at military bases.
I am starting to get bored by that particular issue.
Why should I give a flip anyway?
I don't know all of the custom and protocol for various ceremonies, birthday parties, promotion parties, best golfer awards, whatever, at military bases.
Arneoker ....
YOU HAVE BEEN BORED WITH THIS SINCE IT HAPPENED!
I know that ....
It's cool ....
And WHY should YOU give a flip?
You don't ....
So there is no answer to that question ...
I'm the one in here that gives the flip ....
And that bores you ...
So again, we're cool, Arneoker ....
Once I have parsed all of what you have posted, I firmly intend to move on in here, because WHAT HAS BEEN HAS NOW BEEN ...
Regardless of what I might think, they in fact have been honored ...
And there that all is ....
And yes, you called them DEA contractors ....
Sooooooo ........
DEA CONTRACTORS NOW GET TO PARTICIPATE IN THE FORMULATION OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY BY DETERMINING WHO IS A TAY-RIST GROUP NEEDING MILITARY ACTION AGAINST IT .....
THAT IS THE REAL POINT THAT I WAS TRYING TO GET MADE HERE ....
And now, it is ...
We can move on ...
Arneoker, I value your intelligence too much, and your humanity, to engage in trying to insult you in here, or bore you, so that you would quit participating ....
YOU represent a point of view ....
RIGHT OR WRONG IS NOT ASSIGNED TO THAT POINT OF VIEW BY ME IN HERE ...
This is a discussion ....
All points of view of the thread theme of ON PATRIOTISM should be aired in here, is my thought ...
And definitely yours among them, because of your knowledge and intelligence, especially ...
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 09:07 AM)
I don't think the decision we make, as a Nation, about whether to continue an Interventionist Foreign Policy or Stop and do something else, relates directly to our internal democracy-republic issues, which will eventually effect our way of managing ourselves in a Self-governing social system.
An important point, rla ...
I would respond by stating that until you identify a point, that it can't be examined ...
You have now posited something that can and must be considered in its own light in here ...
Where is the baby?
Where is the bathwater?
Or is there any ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 08:07 AM)
If these guys were being celebrated don't you think it was for their status of being rescued hostages as opposed to being DEA contractors?
BTW, I have something personal against those SOB "Tay-rists" in Colombia, as a FARC vermin made a cowardly threat to my brother-in-law over the phone, trying to extort money from him.
BTW, I have something personal against those SOB "Tay-rists" in Colombia, as a FARC vermin made a cowardly threat to my brother-in-law over the phone, trying to extort money from him.
We got some Tay-rists activity brewing just beyond our southern border, in my personal opinion.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 09:11 AM)
Some of the things we've been discussing in this thread also relate to my thread on the Continuum of Connectivity.
I invite the reader to check this out and contribute.
I invite the reader to check this out and contribute.
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...showtopic=75426
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:22 AM)
Colombia is not a Monopoly board either for those of the Left or the Right who cannot look there and realize that there are actually people there, people very much like themselves.
Livyjr, last night I called my wife who is down there right now. I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter. Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet. And she loves her Dad, and he loves her. He really does not get off on the deaths of "noble peasant fighters" or whatever concept someone may have of the Monopoly tokens which come to mind when they think of the conflict in Colombia.
Livyjr, last night I called my wife who is down there right now. I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter. Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet. And she loves her Dad, and he loves her. He really does not get off on the deaths of "noble peasant fighters" or whatever concept someone may have of the Monopoly tokens which come to mind when they think of the conflict in Colombia.
This is what I mean by person-centered, community-based and Nationally guaranteed...
Well if these guys got special treatment at this base, as civilians, then that is wrong. But I don't know that for a fact, and quite honestly I am not particulary motivated to learn about it one way or the other.
More importantly, maybe they were involved in nefarious activities in Colombia. But I don't know that. I don't know if they they did so much as point a gun in warning at anyone.
I certainly think that there is a big issue with the tendency to subcontract out law enforcement and national security work to contractors, as such sensitive work should stay under the control and responsibility of our government, which should be responsible to us.
More importantly, maybe they were involved in nefarious activities in Colombia. But I don't know that. I don't know if they they did so much as point a gun in warning at anyone.
I certainly think that there is a big issue with the tendency to subcontract out law enforcement and national security work to contractors, as such sensitive work should stay under the control and responsibility of our government, which should be responsible to us.
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 10:10 AM)
Amen.
You're tough Liv.
You're tough Liv.
It's how the women in my community brought me up to be ...
And my mother ....
You know them women, Snuf ....
If you are smart, you do what they told you ...
And no back-sass ...
If your real smart, anyway, you don't give them no lip ...
YES, MA'AM!
And so ...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 09:59 AM)
Actually Liv - the principle is the same for ALL FEDERAL jobs. The FEDERALES include Forest Service, BLM, Bureau of Reclamation, LANDSAT, mineral leasing, Army Corps of Engineers, OSHA inspectors, NRC inspectors, and the list goes on. NO SUBCONTRACTING Period.
Save the subcontracting for capital goods, machines, equipment, computers, paper, furniture, offices, hardware, boats, guns etc.
Save the subcontracting for capital goods, machines, equipment, computers, paper, furniture, offices, hardware, boats, guns etc.
This is pretty much where I am on the whole subject of contracting with the government. The possible exceptions being studies contracted with quasi-government institutions like RAND, etc... and even there and at Universities there needs to be no political influence going either way. Profit motives are completely incompatiable with serving the public. The rubric of the "efficiency" of the "private sector" is a bald faced lie ginned up by the professional wordsmiths of "Privateers" (Pirates).
It's a tall order but Federal and Public jobs should be done by dedicated public servants with Civil Service protection against political influence, and oaths from them against getting involved in politics.
Just my opinion
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 12:22 PM)
An important point, rla ...
I would respond by stating that until you identify a point, that it can't be examined ...
You have now posited something that can and must be considered in its own light in here ...
Where is the baby?
Where is the bathwater?
Or is there any ...
And so ...
I would respond by stating that until you identify a point, that it can't be examined ...
You have now posited something that can and must be considered in its own light in here ...
Where is the baby?
Where is the bathwater?
Or is there any ...
And so ...
This is the challenge I share with the group. In my adopted State of Arkansas the State grants
Charters to both Counties and Cities and lets them fight out the interface, which never gets completly settled...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 12:27 PM)
Well if these guys got special treatment at this base, as civilians, then that is wrong. But I don't know that for a fact, and quite honestly I am not particulary motivated to learn about it one way or the other.
More importantly, maybe they were involved in nefarious activities in Colombia. But I don't know that. I don't know if they they did so much as point a gun in warning at anyone.
I certainly think that there is a big issue with the tendency to subcontract out law enforcement and national security work to contractors, as such sensitive work should stay under the control and responsibility of our government, which should be responsible to us.
More importantly, maybe they were involved in nefarious activities in Colombia. But I don't know that. I don't know if they they did so much as point a gun in warning at anyone.
I certainly think that there is a big issue with the tendency to subcontract out law enforcement and national security work to contractors, as such sensitive work should stay under the control and responsibility of our government, which should be responsible to us.
The creeping power of, "Grants Management" and its systemic mis-management, perhaps, is the strategy being employed to Change the Structure of Government away from a Humanitarian
Constitutional Democracy toward a Facist-leaning Technocracy, maintained by manipulating Religion,
the Military and the Economy?
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 01:44 PM)
The creeping power of, "Grants Management" and its systemic mis-management, perhaps, is the strategy being employed to Change the Structure of Government away from a Humanitarian
Constitutional Democracy toward a Facist-leaning Technocracy, maintained by manipulating Religion,
the Military and the Economy?
Constitutional Democracy toward a Facist-leaning Technocracy, maintained by manipulating Religion,
the Military and the Economy?
I think that you are taking on a little much here, but subcontracting does have the potential for enabling an elite to get what it wants done without having to fuss with the requirements for following rules, regulations and laws that so many folks in the bureaucracy insist upon. Yes, we all get mad when bureaucrats go overzealous and obsessive with such stuff, tying everything up in red tape. And they should answer to their political overlords. But if we want a government of laws, not a government of men...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:27 AM)
Well if these guys got special treatment at this base, as civilians, then that is wrong.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 4 2008, 06:23 AM)
It has become very obvious to me over these last 50+ years since I was in kindergarten that in America, we all do not seem to be taught the same things as children ....
And sometimes, especially in here, I am left wondering if maybe I was brought up on the moon, or something, or maybe, as Marine is always telling me, I am just a relic of a long, by-gone age, and perhaps someone with the experience of the world and its people that Marine has, he may be right ....
But so be it ....
I'm still going to "howl at the moon" in here about what I think PATRIOTISM means to me as an older disabled combat veteran in America ...
Once again, for what it is worth ....
And so ...
And sometimes, especially in here, I am left wondering if maybe I was brought up on the moon, or something, or maybe, as Marine is always telling me, I am just a relic of a long, by-gone age, and perhaps someone with the experience of the world and its people that Marine has, he may be right ....
But so be it ....
I'm still going to "howl at the moon" in here about what I think PATRIOTISM means to me as an older disabled combat veteran in America ...
Once again, for what it is worth ....
And so ...
Arneoker ...
I stated that I valued your intelligence and participation in here, and I am sincere about that ....
So I am not going to challenge you further on this ....
YOU HAVE MADE THE ESSENTIAL POINT, I BELIEVE ...
Maybe there no longer is a CONCRETE RIGHT or WRONG ....
It is all "SITUATIONAL ETHICS", now ....
In this specific situation, something that might be wrong in another situation is now right and proper in this one ....
LYNCH LAW ...
If he was a horse thief, it was really alright ....
So make sure that you only lynch horse thieves ...
That is really at the heart of what we are discussing in here, I think, Arneoker ....
And without people like you in here to help develop these concepts, there could be no discussion ...
Your point of view is from that of an American civilian based upon all of the "DATA" that you have gotten in your life to this date, which does not include walking a guardmount on a U.S. military installation in America ....
AND MY DATA IS WAY OUT OF DATE!
IT IS ANTIQUATED, IN FACT!
THE WHOLE CODE OF CONDUCT HAS BEEN REVISED!
THE CODE OF CONDUCT WHICH GOVERNED MY CONDUCT HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED!
THAT SUPERCESSION HAS CHANGED AND ALTERED OPERATIVE THOUGHT PATTERNS IN AMERICA AND IN THE U.S. ARMY ....
THAT IS WHAT IS RELEVANT IN HERE, AND THAT IS ALL ....
That is what started this thread, Arneoker ...
That change ....
I know about THE CHANGE thanks to Marine, because in my veteran's thread, he posted a section of the NEW ALTERED CODE OF CONDUCT as a justification for indiscriminantly killing women and children in other countries ....
LAW OF WAR ....
THEN CODE OF CONDUCT ...
THEN RULES OF ENGAGEMENT ...
Military discipline stems directly from them in that order ....
Once you are told as a combat soldier that YOU ARE OPERATING UNDER THE LAW OF WAR ...
You must interpret your orders in that light in order to determine if they are LAWFUL, for it used to be, anyway, that if you followed an unlawful order, THEN YOU WERE CULPABLE under the Uniform Code of Military Law ....
By altering the CODE OF CONDUCT, that equation has been greatly altered, in my estimation, anyway, as a former soldier in the U.S. Army ....
The CALCULUS to determine a lawful order from an unlawful order is no longer the same ....
But if you weren't ever in the military, none of this would ever be obvious to you personally, especially since you likely would not know that the CODE OF CONDUCT even existed, or what it meant ....
Had I not served in a time of alleged war when I did, under a different CODE OF CONDUCT than the NEW ALTERED ONE, then what Marine said in my veteran's thread would have sailed right on by my head, too ...
Which is why I started this thread, to be truthful ....
Because it did not sail by my head ...
But that was not the right venue to bring that all up in without further background ....
And here we are, Arneoker ....
I am glad that you have been a vital part of this effort ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 06:28 PM)
It's how the women in my community brought me up to be ...
And my mother ....
You know them women, Snuf ....
If you are smart, you do what they told you ...
And no back-sass ...
If your real smart, anyway, you don't give them no lip ...
YES, MA'AM!
And so ...
And my mother ....
You know them women, Snuf ....
If you are smart, you do what they told you ...
And no back-sass ...
If your real smart, anyway, you don't give them no lip ...
YES, MA'AM!
And so ...
I had the same type of mother and grandmother. The dinner table was for eating not talking. Children were seen and not heard. No lip. Back-sass? - They would knock your block off. Rods weren't spared.
This topic is quite germane to the following issue: Breaking News:
Boeing Gets Another Shot at Tanker Deal
The Pentagon, citing errors in the Air Force's award to Northrop Grumman and EADS, reopens the $35 billion contract
by Avi Salzman
The U.S. Air Force will reopen the contracting process for 179 aerial refueling tankers after its initial bidding process was ruled by government investigators to be flawed, according to Senator Richard Shelby (R-Ala.), who was briefed by Pentagon officials. That leaves the contest between Boeing (BA) and Northrop Grumman (NOC) for the $35 billion contract up in the air.
Shelby is particularly interested in the outcome of the deal because Northrop Grumman and partner European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EAD.PA), or EADS, plan to build the tankers in his home state of Alabama. Shelby called the Air Force's decision "the best of all options." Although Shelby said he expects an "expedited recompetition" for the contract, one defense analyst said speeding up the process could be difficult given all the problems so far.
"Getting this contract awarded in the six months remaining in the Bush Administration is a very hard thing to do," said Loren Thompson, an analyst at the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Va. "There's a possibility that whoever loses will file another protest."
GAO Says Process Was Flawed
Pentagon officials are expected to hold a news conference later this afternoon to explain the decision. Boeing's stock price was up about 66˘, or 1%, to 66.58, on the news.
The Government Accountability Office, an investigative agency that works for Congress, ruled on June 18 that the Air Force's process for awarding the contract to Northrop and EADS was flawed (BusinessWeek.com, 6/25/08). The GAO urged the Air Force to amend its decision.
The July 9 news is just the latest twist in a bidding process that has gone awry numerous times over the past few years. The Air Force originally awarded a contract for leasing tankers to Boeing, but had to rescind it after it was revealed the company had received unfair advantages. Northrop Grumman won the bid on Feb. 29, but Boeing filed a formal complaint, claiming the Air Force changed the selection criteria without telling the company.
The GAO's decision was seen as an important win for Boeing, which has seen its stock price drop dramatically as increased fuel prices hamstring the airline industry. The company also has faced delays with its most important civilian program, the new 787 Dreamliner jet.
Keeping the Contract at Home?
Other considerations are also at play. Boeing's supporters argue that a large U.S. military contract shouldn't go to a company based overseas and that the contract would give EADS, which owns Airbus, too big a foothold in the U.S. market.
This contract is the first of three, worth about $100 billion, that the Air Force intends to award over the next 30 years to replace about 600 aging tanker planes. Whichever company wins the first contract is expected to have an edge on securing the other two.
The existing tankers are high-maintenance, Cold War-era machines. The planes are more than 40 years old and rapidly wear out due to the demands of faraway conflicts. The Air Force considers replacing them with more sophisticated aircraft its top weapons-purchasing priority.
Salzman is an intern at BusinessWeek.
Boeing Gets Another Shot at Tanker Deal
The Pentagon, citing errors in the Air Force's award to Northrop Grumman and EADS, reopens the $35 billion contract
by Avi Salzman
The U.S. Air Force will reopen the contracting process for 179 aerial refueling tankers after its initial bidding process was ruled by government investigators to be flawed, according to Senator Richard Shelby (R-Ala.), who was briefed by Pentagon officials. That leaves the contest between Boeing (BA) and Northrop Grumman (NOC) for the $35 billion contract up in the air.
Shelby is particularly interested in the outcome of the deal because Northrop Grumman and partner European Aeronautic Defence and Space (EAD.PA), or EADS, plan to build the tankers in his home state of Alabama. Shelby called the Air Force's decision "the best of all options." Although Shelby said he expects an "expedited recompetition" for the contract, one defense analyst said speeding up the process could be difficult given all the problems so far.
"Getting this contract awarded in the six months remaining in the Bush Administration is a very hard thing to do," said Loren Thompson, an analyst at the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Va. "There's a possibility that whoever loses will file another protest."
GAO Says Process Was Flawed
Pentagon officials are expected to hold a news conference later this afternoon to explain the decision. Boeing's stock price was up about 66˘, or 1%, to 66.58, on the news.
The Government Accountability Office, an investigative agency that works for Congress, ruled on June 18 that the Air Force's process for awarding the contract to Northrop and EADS was flawed (BusinessWeek.com, 6/25/08). The GAO urged the Air Force to amend its decision.
The July 9 news is just the latest twist in a bidding process that has gone awry numerous times over the past few years. The Air Force originally awarded a contract for leasing tankers to Boeing, but had to rescind it after it was revealed the company had received unfair advantages. Northrop Grumman won the bid on Feb. 29, but Boeing filed a formal complaint, claiming the Air Force changed the selection criteria without telling the company.
The GAO's decision was seen as an important win for Boeing, which has seen its stock price drop dramatically as increased fuel prices hamstring the airline industry. The company also has faced delays with its most important civilian program, the new 787 Dreamliner jet.
Keeping the Contract at Home?
Other considerations are also at play. Boeing's supporters argue that a large U.S. military contract shouldn't go to a company based overseas and that the contract would give EADS, which owns Airbus, too big a foothold in the U.S. market.
This contract is the first of three, worth about $100 billion, that the Air Force intends to award over the next 30 years to replace about 600 aging tanker planes. Whichever company wins the first contract is expected to have an edge on securing the other two.
The existing tankers are high-maintenance, Cold War-era machines. The planes are more than 40 years old and rapidly wear out due to the demands of faraway conflicts. The Air Force considers replacing them with more sophisticated aircraft its top weapons-purchasing priority.
Salzman is an intern at BusinessWeek.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:22 AM)
Livyjr, last night I called my wife who is down there right now.
I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter.
Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet.
And she loves her Dad, and he loves her.
I spoke to my brother-in-law's ten-year old daughter.
Other than speaking Spanish she is the same as any other ten-year old girl you might meet.
And she loves her Dad, and he loves her.
One day, in Viet Nam, Arneoker, we came into a small village, and very obviously, something was wrong ....
No doubt about it at all ...
There was a woman there and she was very distraught ....
Her face was all out of shape ....
She was very agitated ....
I was carrying a radio that day, and so I was near the CO, and so got to see and hear the whole thing ....
There had been a Vietnamese girl in that village ...
Twelve, she had been, according to all the information that I had at the time ....
I assume that like her mother and people, she would have spoken Vietnamese, but outside of that, she could be just like your daughter, black hair, dark eyes and smile and all of that ....
Whether or not she loved her dad, or even had one by then, and whether or not he might have loved her in return was never made known to me, so I can't comment on it ....
And nobody could ask the girl, because she had been "SPATTERED" by a rocket that some American helicopter pilot had fired at her, just because ...
They called it SPORT-SHOOTING ....
WHAP!
"HEY, DID'JA SEE WHAT THAT PUPPY JUST DID?"
"HOLY ****, THESE THINGS REALLY PACK A WHALLOP, DON'T THEY?"
Now, I suppose it could have been a TEST FIRE ...
Design/Development work ....
The company developing the rockets needed some "field data", and so they would have sent a CONTRACTOR like you over to Viet Nam with your credentials ....
And because you had those credentials and they were deemed to be "in order", a helicopter and crew would have been detailed to you, and you would have ridden around watching your company's rockets kill people, so that you could then report back on any glitches or other problems, in aid of further development to make them more lethal, just in case they ever had to be used against A REAL ENEMY ....
And the military brass would have treated you like a VIP, which you would have been ....
They would not have risked their relationship with your company and its CONGRESSIONAL SUPPORTERS and LOBBYISTS by sending you out to where the REAL ENEMY was ....
There would have been HELL to pay if you had gotten hurt, so they would take you out to some safe places and kill civilians for you, so that you could then keep America safe ....
BID-NE$$ ...
I remember that captain giving the woman a hard shove to push her away from him ....
I remember it being very hard not to BUTT-STROKE him right in the head for that ....
I was enlisted ....
If I had butt-stroked him, I would have been court-martialed ....
Maybe this is all a part of why I don't like MERCENARIES who are MILITARY CONTRACTORS ....
Every experience that I ever had with them, their product was always DEATH ....
And it never mattered whose ....
Women and children were always fair game ....
And maybe the preferred game, actually ....
They were the least likely to be able to fight back ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 12:03 PM)
I had the same type of mother and grandmother.
The dinner table was for eating not talking.
Children were seen and not heard.
No lip.
Back-sass? - They would knock your block off.
Rods weren't spared.
The dinner table was for eating not talking.
Children were seen and not heard.
No lip.
Back-sass? - They would knock your block off.
Rods weren't spared.
GOD BLESS THEM AMERICAN WOMEN, is my thought, anyway ...
They raised up you, Snuf ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 12:56 PM)
Arneoker ...
I stated that I valued your intelligence and participation in here, and I am sincere about that ....
So I am not going to challenge you further on this ....
YOU HAVE MADE THE ESSENTIAL POINT, I BELIEVE ...
Maybe there no longer is a CONCRETE RIGHT or WRONG ....
It is all "SITUATIONAL ETHICS", now ....
In this specific situation, something that might be wrong in another situation is now right and proper in this one ....
LYNCH LAW ...
If he was a horse thief, it was really alright ....
So make sure that you only lynch horse thieves ...
That is really at the heart of what we are discussing in here, I think, Arneoker ....
And without people like you in here to help develop these concepts, there could be no discussion ...
Your point of view is from that of an American civilian based upon all of the "DATA" that you have gotten in your life to this date, which does not include walking a guardmount on a U.S. military installation in America ....
AND MY DATA IS WAY OUT OF DATE!
IT IS ANTIQUATED, IN FACT!
THE WHOLE CODE OF CONDUCT HAS BEEN REVISED!
THE CODE OF CONDUCT WHICH GOVERNED MY CONDUCT HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED!
THAT SUPERCESSION HAS CHANGED AND ALTERED OPERATIVE THOUGHT PATTERNS IN AMERICA AND IN THE U.S. ARMY ....
THAT IS WHAT IS RELEVANT IN HERE, AND THAT IS ALL ....
That is what started this thread, Arneoker ...
That change ....
I know about THE CHANGE thanks to Marine, because in my veteran's thread, he posted a section of the NEW ALTERED CODE OF CONDUCT as a justification for indiscriminantly killing women and children in other countries ....
LAW OF WAR ....
THEN CODE OF CONDUCT ...
THEN RULES OF ENGAGEMENT ...
Military discipline stems directly from them in that order ....
Once you are told as a combat soldier that YOU ARE OPERATING UNDER THE LAW OF WAR ...
You must interpret your orders in that light in order to determine if they are LAWFUL, for it used to be, anyway, that if you followed an unlawful order, THEN YOU WERE CULPABLE under the Uniform Code of Military Law ....
By altering the CODE OF CONDUCT, that equation has been greatly altered, in my estimation, anyway, as a former soldier in the U.S. Army ....
The CALCULUS to determine a lawful order from an unlawful order is no longer the same ....
But if you weren't ever in the military, none of this would ever be obvious to you personally, especially since you likely would not know that the CODE OF CONDUCT even existed, or what it meant ....
Had I not served in a time of alleged war when I did, under a different CODE OF CONDUCT than the NEW ALTERED ONE, then what Marine said in my veteran's thread would have sailed right on by my head, too ...
Which is why I started this thread, to be truthful ....
Because it did not sail by my head ...
But that was not the right venue to bring that all up in without further background ....
And here we are, Arneoker ....
I am glad that you have been a vital part of this effort ....
And so ...
I stated that I valued your intelligence and participation in here, and I am sincere about that ....
So I am not going to challenge you further on this ....
YOU HAVE MADE THE ESSENTIAL POINT, I BELIEVE ...
Maybe there no longer is a CONCRETE RIGHT or WRONG ....
It is all "SITUATIONAL ETHICS", now ....
In this specific situation, something that might be wrong in another situation is now right and proper in this one ....
LYNCH LAW ...
If he was a horse thief, it was really alright ....
So make sure that you only lynch horse thieves ...
That is really at the heart of what we are discussing in here, I think, Arneoker ....
And without people like you in here to help develop these concepts, there could be no discussion ...
Your point of view is from that of an American civilian based upon all of the "DATA" that you have gotten in your life to this date, which does not include walking a guardmount on a U.S. military installation in America ....
AND MY DATA IS WAY OUT OF DATE!
IT IS ANTIQUATED, IN FACT!
THE WHOLE CODE OF CONDUCT HAS BEEN REVISED!
THE CODE OF CONDUCT WHICH GOVERNED MY CONDUCT HAS BEEN SUPERCEDED!
THAT SUPERCESSION HAS CHANGED AND ALTERED OPERATIVE THOUGHT PATTERNS IN AMERICA AND IN THE U.S. ARMY ....
THAT IS WHAT IS RELEVANT IN HERE, AND THAT IS ALL ....
That is what started this thread, Arneoker ...
That change ....
I know about THE CHANGE thanks to Marine, because in my veteran's thread, he posted a section of the NEW ALTERED CODE OF CONDUCT as a justification for indiscriminantly killing women and children in other countries ....
LAW OF WAR ....
THEN CODE OF CONDUCT ...
THEN RULES OF ENGAGEMENT ...
Military discipline stems directly from them in that order ....
Once you are told as a combat soldier that YOU ARE OPERATING UNDER THE LAW OF WAR ...
You must interpret your orders in that light in order to determine if they are LAWFUL, for it used to be, anyway, that if you followed an unlawful order, THEN YOU WERE CULPABLE under the Uniform Code of Military Law ....
By altering the CODE OF CONDUCT, that equation has been greatly altered, in my estimation, anyway, as a former soldier in the U.S. Army ....
The CALCULUS to determine a lawful order from an unlawful order is no longer the same ....
But if you weren't ever in the military, none of this would ever be obvious to you personally, especially since you likely would not know that the CODE OF CONDUCT even existed, or what it meant ....
Had I not served in a time of alleged war when I did, under a different CODE OF CONDUCT than the NEW ALTERED ONE, then what Marine said in my veteran's thread would have sailed right on by my head, too ...
Which is why I started this thread, to be truthful ....
Because it did not sail by my head ...
But that was not the right venue to bring that all up in without further background ....
And here we are, Arneoker ....
I am glad that you have been a vital part of this effort ....
And so ...
As members of a social system, we can learn an awfull lot from our Military, its people, its technologies and its thought forms. I have previously commented on my appreciation of its introduction of such concepts as Purpose, Mission, Strategy and Tactics, whic provide much of the conceptual bases for the Dicipline of Operations Research. As important as our Military Stories
are to our individual Humanity, they do not completly define us as Huminoids Doing Personing in
the US of A.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:34 AM)
A few years ago the FARC kidnapped a bunch of Americans down there.
Fortunately they were released after a few months.
Do you have any idea what nefarious activity these Americans were engaged in?
BIRDWATCHING!
Fortunately they were released after a few months.
Do you have any idea what nefarious activity these Americans were engaged in?
BIRDWATCHING!
AND?
Does that deserve a STRONG MILITARY RESPONSE by the USA?
Smoke them with CRUISE MISSLES and SHOCK AND AWE on PRIME TIME TV here in the USA?
Armeoker, I hate to pop any bubbles for you, here, BUT ....
KIDNAPPING IS BIG BID-NE$$$ in the world ....
For a time in Greece, all you had to do to get kidnapped was to be there ....
Americans would go to see the ruins, and get kidnapped on the assumption that if they were rich enough to get to Greece, then there had to be some more money there, somewhere, and so ransom demands would be made and met ...
The hostages would be released, and the kidnappers had some more drinking money ...
If you know HISTORY, Arneoker, then you know that these things have been happening FOREVER ....
Knowing that, I don't waste emotional energy on things over which I personally have no control ....
And if I had been president, I doubt that I would have bombed Greece and its whole peoples back into oblivion because some of those people were kidnappers ....
But that is just me ...
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 12:27 PM)
As important as our Military Stories are to our individual Humanity, they do not completly define us as Huminoids Doing Personing in the US of A.
Let us at least hope so, rla ...
BUT ...
How can we know?
What you just related Livyjr is about as powerful a testament as any as to why it is such an evil thing to dehumanize people. And dehumanization seems to be a very common sin in our society.
It almost seems like a large part of the function of politics is provide plausible reasons for dehumanizing people.
Now I try to be an objective person. But I honestly try to take some things personally. It is one way to avoid dehumanizing people.
And yes, that little Vietnamese girl was certainly not all that different from my daughter, or her older prima in Colombia who answered the phone last night. But obviously not everyone felt that way in that village in Vietnam.
It almost seems like a large part of the function of politics is provide plausible reasons for dehumanizing people.
Now I try to be an objective person. But I honestly try to take some things personally. It is one way to avoid dehumanizing people.
And yes, that little Vietnamese girl was certainly not all that different from my daughter, or her older prima in Colombia who answered the phone last night. But obviously not everyone felt that way in that village in Vietnam.
Actually Livyjr, I am glad the gringo soldiers aren't down in Colombia, except for a few of them as advisors, keeping a rather low profile.
In fact I think Colombia is a good argument about why our huge presence in Iraq is not a good idea.
In Colombia they are handling things themselves, at least for the most part. Not perfectly, at times not even humanely. But they are handling things, almost certainly much better than we would if we had over 100,000 troops down there trying to do it for them.
In fact I think Colombia is a good argument about why our huge presence in Iraq is not a good idea.
In Colombia they are handling things themselves, at least for the most part. Not perfectly, at times not even humanely. But they are handling things, almost certainly much better than we would if we had over 100,000 troops down there trying to do it for them.
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 10:44 AM)
It seems noone wanted to pay the costs for full time federal employees, so now we backdoor it with subcontracting.
And here is another point that I am glad has come out in here ....
My "gripe", Snuf, has to do with culpibility if you were a true government employee going straight out the window because you are now a contractor who can only have his or her contract terminated ....
IMMUNITY FROM THE LAW ....
As a government supervisor, I can get around PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY by sub-contracting something out to you to do, INSTEAD OF ASSIGNING IT TO A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE, especially if it involved POLITICS, because of the HATCH ACT ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 12:40 PM)
What you just related Livyjr is about as powerful a testament as any as to why it is such an evil thing to dehumanize people.
And dehumanization seems to be a very common sin in our society.
And dehumanization seems to be a very common sin in our society.
AMEN!
That's why I don't insult you, Arneoker, or try to push you out of here, because you will come back and say things like this ...
YOU ARE MY COUNTR-PART IN HERE, OR OPPOSITE NUMBER ...
The necessary opposite view, as opposed to OPPOSING VIEW ...
And when you don't speak, it seems a lot don't get said that could have ....
You are MULTI-CULTURAL ...
You are not a XENOPHOBE ....
You aren't "TERRIFED" of people in other cultures, just because they look or smell or eat different than some red neck fool up here does ...
And so ...
That gives you a uique point-of-view, I think, just as CO has a unique point-of-view in here as a Canadian ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 10:44 AM)
But please excuse me for caring about what is going on down there, because it affects people I care about.
No "excuse me" needed, Arneoker ....
That is your "HUMAN-NESS" speaking ....
I think we all should give much more of a damn for OUR fellow human beings ALL OVER THE WORLD than we seem to here in this country ...
We should try to EMULATE you more in that regard ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 9 2008, 10:59 AM)
Save the subcontracting for capital goods, machines, equipment, computers, paper, furniture, offices, hardware, boats, guns etc.
And the other point, Snuf, is that NOW, I do not believe that there is a scalpel sharp enough to separate "business" from "war" ....
The latter is the goal of the former ....
DEVELOPMENT OF WEAPONS SYSTEMS ultimately requires SOMETHING to test them on ....
TROU was positing, I believe, a condition or set of conditions of where there could be a PURE WAR, one unsullied by crass commercialism ....
I don't think such a beast can ever exist, especially in a county like the USA which is THE MAJOR ARMS SUPPLIER to the rest of the world ....
We always need a new and better product to stay ahead of the competition ....
And so, we need to create "situations" where we can do some field testing ....
"SITUATIONAL ETHICS" ....
"HEY, YOU WANT US TO KEEP YOU SAFE, DON'T YOU?"
"WELL THEN ..."
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 12:44 PM)
The creeping power of, "Grants Management" and its systemic mis-management, perhaps, is the strategy being employed to Change the Structure of Government away from a Humanitarian
Constitutional Democracy toward a Facist-leaning Technocracy, maintained by manipulating Religion,
the Military and the Economy?
Constitutional Democracy toward a Facist-leaning Technocracy, maintained by manipulating Religion,
the Military and the Economy?
The Education of our Children is necessarily conducted at the local, community level. Yet,
we are about to elect one of two applicants to Improve Education in the US of A, from 2009
through 2013.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:09 AM)
Who said we should fight terror with terror?
I am simply saying that we say terror is terror, and not something else that does not sound so "judgmental", and that we should fight it somehow.
I am simply saying that we say terror is terror, and not something else that does not sound so "judgmental", and that we should fight it somehow.
We are trying to fight "terror" by actually using BRUTE MILITARY FORCE to terrorize the rest of the world ....
The British were always big on this same thing ....
In Killrush, Ireland, in the early-1900's, some British or black-and-tans or whatever got killed, so the British came to Killrush and practiced decimation ....
They lined up everybody, and had them counted off, and whoever was the tenth persons got killed ...
MULTIPLE EYES FOR ONE EYE ....
And we make the British look like rank amateurs ....
We can kill whole villages in the blink of an eye if some TAY-RIST happens to take a shot at an American, or even a rat if an American is anywhere near by ....
If we weren't terrorizing the rest of the world under the rubric or guise of fighting TAY-RIZM, I wouldn't likely be BLOGGING in here ....
I would be enjoying my life as an American citizen, instead ....
And so ...
It is an illusion to think that we can primarily fight terrorism with the military. While I think that the military is appropriate tool to some extent, overuse of it can only mean using it as a means of terrorism itself. Even in the places where it seems to be called for, Afghanistan and Pakistan, it is of limited use. Terrorism will only decrease there when the governments there can actually reach out to the people there and serve them.
That is also part of what they have to do in Colombia.
People who think that we can fight terrorism primarily by the military have a pre-9/11 mindset.
That is also part of what they have to do in Colombia.
People who think that we can fight terrorism primarily by the military have a pre-9/11 mindset.
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:09 AM)
Anyway, my father-in-law may be like you.
When he got his call, from the right-wing thugs of the AUC, he got angry and told them he was not paying!
And that was that.
When he got his call, from the right-wing thugs of the AUC, he got angry and told them he was not paying!
And that was that.
You see, Arneoker ....
I wouldn't have gotten angry ....
I would have done anything in my power to learn who was on the other end of the line, and where they were ....
Oh, I would have cried and lamented and begged and pleaded and told them how scared I was and god knows what else to convince these people to come to me, or else, to get me to them ....
And then ...
That would have assured me that never again would those same people ever think of ****** with me or mine ever again ....
THE USUAL SUSPECTS, Arneoker ....
Sometimes, it's just not enough to simply say no ....
Sometimes, you need to provide further definition ....
And that is always a matter of judgment to me ....
The world is a dynamic place, after all ...
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 11:13 AM)
Isn't this Mutual Self-Help stuff Great.
In 1967 I had left my School Counseling Job in the North Georgia Mountain, back in Graduate School, thinking I had missed something on the first two go arounds ...
well I finished that program in time to go for a job interview, in 1968 where I collided with the Democratic Convention and I thought, "Its going to take a lot to stoomp out all this ignorance."
In 1967 I had left my School Counseling Job in the North Georgia Mountain, back in Graduate School, thinking I had missed something on the first two go arounds ...
well I finished that program in time to go for a job interview, in 1968 where I collided with the Democratic Convention and I thought, "Its going to take a lot to stoomp out all this ignorance."
AH, YES, rla ...
You have got your own unique way of making a vital point in here ....
And so ...
Well Livyjr, maybe you are not as similar to my father-in-law as I thought.
But I still think that you both share one quality.
Directness.
Plus he is stubborn. Muy terco, as my wife would say, and has said.
But I still think that you both share one quality.
Directness.
Plus he is stubborn. Muy terco, as my wife would say, and has said.
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