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Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:27 AM) *
I certainly think that there is a big issue with the tendency to subcontract out law enforcement and national security work to contractors, as such sensitive work should stay under the control and responsibility of our government, which should be responsible to us.

BINGO, Arneoker ....

Thanks for getting us back on topic in so clear and concise a manner ....

THERE IS THE POINT TO CONSIDER, FOLKS!

RIGHT HERE IN THE LITTLE WINDOW ...

ARE THERE ADVERSE IMPLICATIONS TO THE CITIZENS OF THE USA FROM THIS POLICY OF SUBCONTRACTING NATIONAL SECURITY WORK, ESPECIALLY ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 01:28 PM) *
Well Livyjr, maybe you are not as similar to my father-in-law as I thought.

I think that I would look up to your father-in-law, Arneoker ....

In many ways, his would be the much better response ....

BUT ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(TheRestofUs @ Jul 9 2008, 11:31 AM) *
It's a tall order but Federal and Public jobs should be done by dedicated public servants with Civil Service protection against political influence, and oaths from them against getting involved in politics.

Just my opinion

Your opinion is worth a lot, TROU ...

You are speaking for AMERICA in here ...

It's a tall order ..

But you have been proving yourself quite capable of the task ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 01:28 PM) *
Well Livyjr, maybe you are not as similar to my father-in-law as I thought.

And it isn't necessary to go out and kill people to make a point, Arneoker ....

People find just looking in my eyes at close range to be sufficient ....

So I would just want to get my eyes close enough to them so that they could take a look ....

That's all ....

They would get rid of my telephone number in a hurry, and never think to look it up ever again ....

And so ...

See how simple life can be when you are Muy terco like me ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 11:34 AM) *
This is the challenge I share with the group.

In my adopted State of Arkansas the State grants Charters to both Counties and Cities and lets them fight out the interface, which never gets completly settled...

Well, rla ...

That is sloppy government and bad management and lousy citizenship all colliding ...

And that is also an INTERNAL state issue ....

As a New Yorker, I have NO STANDING in that issue ....

Which means that I should keep my long pointy nose out of your internal affairs down there ....

And so should the federal government in Washington, for that matter ....

Unless it involves federal funds ....

Or law enforcement ....

And so ...

Do you think that it is maybe a LACK OF PATRIOTISM, rla?

People down there are just not devoted enough to THEIR COUNTRY?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 11:44 AM) *
The creeping power of, "Grants Management" and its systemic mis-management, perhaps, is the strategy being employed to Change the Structure of Government away from a Humanitarian Constitutional Democracy toward a Facist-leaning Technocracy, maintained by manipulating Religion, the Military and the Economy?

I would have to consider that there is some merit in this suggestion ...

In the light of all that has been posted in here to date ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 11:50 AM) *
But if we want a government of laws, not a government of men...

We really are not that much apart in here in our goals and desires ...
Arneoker
I have no desire to kill the FARC.

If these people just decided to disband and go home, either to the countryside (where a lot of them used to come from) or to the cities (where apparently more of them now come from) then I would have no desire to hunt them down, unless they had committed crimes. And Colombia does have a justice system for that.

And they can run for office if they think that the government is so bad, the system is so bad. Of course the state would have the duty to protect them from those who would off them (they have not done such a good job of that in the past).

And of course it is up to the Colombians. I just hope that they are smart as well as tough.
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 03:59 PM) *
We really are not that much apart in here in our goals and desires ...

I think you are right on that.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 12:44 PM) *
Actually Livyjr, I am glad the gringo soldiers aren't down in Colombia, except for a few of them as advisors, keeping a rather low profile.

In fact I think Colombia is a good argument about why our huge presence in Iraq is not a good idea.

In Colombia they are handling things themselves, at least for the most part.

Not perfectly, at times not even humanely.

But they are handling things, almost certainly much better than we would if we had over 100,000 troops down there trying to do it for them.

You see, Arneoker .....

THIS is why you are so important to this discussion ...

You make things clear and understandable to a common person ...

One does not need multiple Ph.D's to comprehend what you are saying in here ...

And so ...
Livyjr
Sometimes, Arneoker, to properly understand things in one place ....

To GROK them ...

Or BIC them as the Vietnamese would say ...

You need the OPPOSITE VIEW from another, so that you now have a basis for comparison ....

Without an apple to compare it with, what can you say about an orange?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 12:40 PM) *
What you just related Livyjr is about as powerful a testament as any as to why it is such an evil thing to dehumanize people.

And dehumanization seems to be a very common sin in our society.

It almost seems like a large part of the function of politics is provide plausible reasons for dehumanizing people.

Operating in Iraq under THE LAW OF WAR is a dehumanizing as it can possibly get ...

I know I sound like a BROKEN RECORD in here, but that is what this ALTERED CODE OF CONDUCT has accomplished ....

It has de-sensitized young Americans to killing people in other countries ....

They are now by law less human .....

They have less protection than does a dog or cat in New York State ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 01:23 PM) *
People who think that we can fight terrorism primarily by the military have a pre-9/11 mindset.

It was said in another thread, but in the American War of Independence, in the Southern Campaign, American General Greene used the BRUTALITY of the British soldiers as one of his main weapons against them ....

His strategy was to get them to chase after him, so that the people inland would be introduced to the British first-hand ...

And they did the rest of the work for him by being BRUTAL ....

SHOCK AND AWE ....

But what do you do the next day?

And so ...
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 01:52 PM) *
AMEN!

That's why I don't insult you, Arneoker, or try to push you out of here, because you will come back and say things like this ...

YOU ARE MY COUNTR-PART IN HERE, OR OPPOSITE NUMBER ...

The necessary opposite view, as opposed to OPPOSING VIEW ...

And when you don't speak, it seems a lot don't get said that could have ....

You are MULTI-CULTURAL ...

You are not a XENOPHOBE ....

You aren't "TERRIFED" of people in other cultures, just because they look or smell or eat different than some red neck fool up here does ...

And so ...

That gives you a uique point-of-view, I think, just as CO has a unique point-of-view in here as a Canadian ...

And so ...

I wish I understood Matrix Algebra (multivariate Analysis of Variance will have to do)...In a matrix of Correlations of multiple variables. Above the diagonal of the multiple prediction equation factor
(axis) are located the sets of predictor variables in decending order of potency for prediction. When I present my ordered set of propositions based on these "weights", and then Arne presents the
Obverse of my Matrix, using my data to present his version of, So What?
rla
Arne, we love you, anyway...
Livyjr
LORD HOWE DIED JUST TO THE NORTH OF WHERE I AM NOW ....

"Author: A tribute to redcoat may have paid off big"


By CHRIS CAROLA, Associated Press

Last updated: 1:32 p.m., Monday, July 7, 2008

ALBANY -- Did the money Massachusetts spent on a monument honoring a British officer killed in a forgotten skirmish 250 years ago pay big dividends two decades later when the deceased redcoat's brothers were poised to crush the rebellious American colonies?

The way military history author Stephen Brumwell sees it, the tribute the notoriously tightfisted New Englanders paid to Lord George Augustus Howe was well worth the expense, considering the role it may have played in the outcome of the American Revolution, when Howe's two brothers commanded British land and sea forces in North America.

"This gesture made a big impact on Howe's surviving younger brothers," Brumwell said in a telephone interview from his home in The Netherlands.

"It was a show of respect they never forgot."


Historians and armchair generals have long speculated why Lord Howe's brothers failed to deliver the knockout blow to American forces during the Revolutionary War, especially after Gen. William Howe's redcoats had George Washington's Continental Army cornered at New York in the summer of 1776.

Brumwell believes one possible answer can be traced back to a forest firefight on July 6, 1758, during the French and Indian War.

Lord Howe, then a rising star in the British army, was second-in-command of a 16,000-strong army of regulars and American provincials intent on capturing the French fort at Ticonderoga, on Lake George in New York's Adirondack Mountains.

A proponent of the forest warfare tactics employed by American frontiersmen, Howe was leading a patrol when it ran into a French force that was lost in the woods.

In the opening volley, a musket ball struck Howe in the chest, killing him instantly.

Howe's men routed the French, but the army was demoralized by the loss of their beloved officer.

The 33-year-old Howe's charm and courage had endeared him to common soldiers and fellow officers among the colonial militia more accustomed to supercilious British officers.

Two days later, the vastly outnumbered French defeated the British at the Battle of Ticonderoga, a setback many historians attribute largely to the grief-stricken English commander's ineffective leadership in the aftermath of Howe's death.

Howe's sacrifice wasn't forgotten by the many Massachusetts soldiers who fought at Ticonderoga.

A year after he was buried at a church in Albany, the Massachusetts colony raised 250 pounds (about $60,000 today) for an obelisk to be placed in Howe's honor in Westminster Abbey, final resting place for generations of English royalty and other notables.

The tribute by the colonists deeply touched Howe's younger brothers, who idolized their older sibling.

William went on to lead the British army in North America during the Revolutionary War, while brother Richard commanded the naval forces.

For a time, both served as "peace commissioners" as England sought an end to the armed conflict with its 13 American colonies.

The Howes were unsuccessful, and William Howe would be roundly criticized for failing to end the rebellion despite beating Washington's army several times.

Brumwell believes the Howes may have been influenced by their enduring gratitude toward the Americans, some of whom had served with the brothers' hero sibling.

"They had this sentimental attachment to the colonists," Brumwell said.

John Ferling, retired history professor at the University of West Georgia, calls Brumwell's contention about the Lord Howe monument's impact on the war's outcome "really speculative."

"I don't think there's any hard evidence," said Ferling, author of 2007's "Almost a Miracle: The American Victory in the War of Independence."

Ferling, however, said he agrees with Brumwell on the brothers' sentiments toward the colonials.

"Their brother had died, in essence, for America to make a better life for Americans," Ferling said.

"They (the Howes) had an emotional tie to America as a result of that."

Howe's unassuming Westminster Abbey monument, unveiled in July 1762, is easy to overlook amid all the tributes to Britain's kings, queens, prime ministers and poets.

Yet it's "a spot that every American tourist in London should at least consider visiting," Brumwell said.

"Whichever way you look at it, I think that the 250 pounds Massachusetts stumped-up for Lord Howe's monument was money very well-spent," he said.

Americans don't have to cross the Atlantic to pay tribute to Lord Howe.

He's buried beneath the entrance to downtown Albany's historic St. Peter's Episcopal Church, where a plaque embedded in the floor marks his final resting place and another nearby refers to the fallen Brit as a "distinguished man and soldier, a friend of the colonies."


------

On the Net:

Fort Ticonderoga: http://www.fort-ticonderoga.org

Stephen Brumwell: http://www.vleggaar.nl/brumwell/
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:23 PM) *
It is an illusion to think that we can primarily fight terrorism with the military. While I think that the military is appropriate tool to some extent, overuse of it can only mean using it as a means of terrorism itself. Even in the places where it seems to be called for, Afghanistan and Pakistan, it is of limited use. Terrorism will only decrease there when the governments there can actually reach out to the people there and serve them.

That is also part of what they have to do in Colombia.

People who think that we can fight terrorism primarily by the military have a pre-9/11 mindset.

How about a pre cave-man mindset?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:02 PM) *
I have no desire to kill the FARC.

You are pronouncing yourself to be both sane and rational, Arneoker ....

We need more people like you here in the USA ....

Any fool can kill ....

I've seen a lot of proof of that in my lifetime ....

And with modern weapons, it don't even require much skill ...

Human beings die pretty easily ....

Especially when you are using machine guns and chain guns and HELLFIRE MISSLES and such ...

And so ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 04:26 PM) *
I wish I understood Matrix Algebra (multivariate Analysis of Variance will have to do)...In a matrix of Correlations of multiple variables. Above the diagonal of the multiple prediction equation factor
(axis) are located the sets of predictor variables in decending order of potency for prediction. When I present my ordered set of propositions based on these "weights", and then Arne presents the
Obverse of my Matrix, using my data to present his version of, So What?

I don't understand matrix algebra. I have actually taken some fancy math classes in college, and got pretty good grades in them, but have forgotten most of that stuff.

But I do understand what multiple regression is. And I understand the basic issues concerning using statistical variables to say things about the social sciences. What I know is that to understand how statistics works with social sciences is that you need to know more about how human beings interact with each other than you need to know about numbers.
Arneoker
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 04:37 PM) *
How about a pre cave-man mindset?

That was not what I had in mind.

Do you think that our apish ancestors had some sort of Manichaean-type concept? Do we see something like that with chimps and gorillas?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:40 PM) *
What I know is that to understand how statistics works with social sciences is that you need to know more about how human beings interact with each other than you need to know about numbers.

Keep on keeping on, Arneoker ...

The problem with statistical models in such fields as human psychology is that there never is a static set of conditions ....

Liefe is DYNAMIC ...

"NORMAL" is always based uon a certain percentage of a population acting in a certain way ....

If you let out the inhabitants of an insane asylum into a vacant village near-by and then went and did a statistical analysis, you would find that "NORMAL" there was what was considered INSANE elsewhere ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:44 PM) *
do we see something like that with chimps and gorillas?

I really don't know what you mean by "some sort of Manichaean-type concept" ....

You should develop that for us lesser lights in here like me ....

And chimps do organize to hunt and kill other types of monkeys ....

And so ...
Arneoker
Statistics can help us understand quite a bit about social situations. The problem is that these numbers seem to promise more than they deliver. (Of course they don't promise anything, they are only numbers. But we human beings have our own illusory perceptions.) Numbers seem so "exact" and "objective". But we use them to measure subjective things.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:51 PM) *
Numbers seem so "exact" and "objective".

But we use them to measure subjective things.

Engineers are taught that at best, Arneoker, numbers are but representations for something else, and they are very illusory ....

Mathematicians are the ones that treat numbers as having some intrinsic substance ...
Arneoker
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 04:49 PM) *
I really don't know what you mean by "some sort of Manichaean-type concept" ....

You should develop that for us lesser lights in here like me ....

And chimps do organize to hunt and kill other types of monkeys ....

And so ...

Do chimps see the world in terms of the struggle between chimps and monkeys? Or do they just like to eat monkeys, and thus have a good reason to hunt them?

What I was getting was the Cold War. The Cold War is very pre-9/11. Thus people who see the "Global War on Terror" as something on par with the Cold War, the struggle against Communism, have a very pre-9/11 mindset. During the Cold War we saw everything in terms of the struggle against the Soviet Union, the other superpower. Now that resulted in a lot of oversimplifications, and some very tragic mistakes. But that struggle was the defining and dominant struggle.

But then it ended, and not even in a way that people expected it to end. I think that a lot of people were at a loss because of that.
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 03:47 PM) *
Keep on keeping on, Arneoker ...

The problem with statistical models in such fields as human psychology is that there never is a static set of conditions ....

Liefe is DYNAMIC ...

"NORMAL" is always based uon a certain percentage of a population acting in a certain way ....

If you let out the inhabitants of an insane asylum into a vacant village near-by and then went and did a statistical analysis, you would find that "NORMAL" there was what was considered INSANE elsewhere ....

And so ...

My ridicule usually comes from the hard science, number chrunching Jocks. Actually, I feel quite fortunate in being somewhat ambidextrous and subscribing to both High Tech and High Touch...
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 03:56 PM) *
Do chimps see the world in terms of the struggle between chimps and monkeys? Or do they just like to eat monkeys, and thus have a good reason to hunt them?

What I was getting was the Cold War. The Cold War is very pre-9/11. Thus people who see the "Global War on Terror" as something on par with the Cold War, the struggle against Communism, have a very pre-9/11 mindset. During the Cold War we saw everything in terms of the struggle against the Soviet Union, the other superpower. Now that resulted in a lot of oversimplifications, and some very tragic mistakes. But that struggle was the defining and dominant struggle.

But then it ended, and not even in a way that people expected it to end. I think that a lot of people were at a loss because of that.

Arne, how would you have illustrated this principle if you were writing before 9/11 happened?
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:56 PM) *
Do chimps see the world in terms of the struggle between chimps and monkeys?

Or do they just like to eat monkeys, and thus have a good reason to hunt them?

QUOTE(Marine @ Sep 30 2005, 07:02 AM) *
Let's take a look at Vietnam and put it in a broader perspect Livyjr.

The West was involved in a Cold War with the Soviets from 1946 through about 1991.

Vietnam was only a battle in that long war.

You fought in that battle and it was lost.

I believe it was lost not through the fault of the people who fought it.

The war was won though.

I served in the Marines from 1970 to 2000 and I was in for the end of the Cold War.

What it took to win that war was forcing the Soviets to counter every threat the United States was capable of presenting.

What the United States is doing right now is fighting a war on terror and ideology.

Iraq is a battle in that war and there will be many more battles.

I've tried to get ghost to educate himself unsucessfully.

You sound like a pretty smart fellow and if you will at least broaden your knowledge you might see this in a slightly different perspective.

QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 1 2005, 06:56 AM) *
Livyjr, the reason why I said you sound like a smart fellow is references you made of historical facts from the American Revolution.

Think about this, about 220 years ago those historical facts were current affairs.

The American Revolution was a noble endeavour which in historical perspective is easily percieved.

Consider what 220 years from now what a historian will think when examining what the United States is doing now.

I consider what Western civilization did to bring about the fall of the Soviet Union to have been a noble endeavour.


Vietnam was a military failure on the journey to success which was ultimately achieved.

Just because Vietnam was a military failure does not lesson the pride we should all feel in the success we achieved.

And although Vietnam was a military failure, Vietnam contributed to the ultimate success.

You should feel great pride in being a victorious cold warrior.

I consider attacking the ideology that exerts terror as a political force and make it a dead philosophy where it has no place to live on our planet to be a noble endeavour.

Would you not like to be a participant in what is regarded as a noble endeavour?

9/11 embarked American on another quest to make the world a better place.

That is a tough one to call, Arneoker ....

I have watched these hunts on nature shows, and I sure would not want these chimps coming after me ....

Maybe that is why those other monkeys invented guns ...

You had an organized pack of chimps coming after your @$$, you would want one ...

It also seemed to me as if more than food was involved ....

But the chimps weren't talking ...

Just hunting and killing ....

Which in a lot of ways is a metaphor for some of these COLD WARRIORS ...

And so ....
Livyjr
This thread has been and continues to be a "thought exercise" for me ....

Sometimes stimulating thought is the way towards future progress ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:56 PM) *
What I was getting was the Cold War.

The Cold War is very pre-9/11.

Thus people who see the "Global War on Terror" as something on par with the Cold War, the struggle against Communism, have a very pre-9/11 mindset.

The study of WAR, Arneoker, is of necessity a study of people, because without people, there can't be war ....

And for many, it is their "GIG", their "RICE BOWL" ....

It is who they are ....

It defines them and their raison d'etre for being ...

One of my favorite older people in my life was a man who had fought through WWII with the 82d Airborne Division ...

He jumped in Normandy on D-Day, and he used to mock and ridicule the war movies that showed movie stars as "paratroops" on their way to jump on the movie D-Day, how they would be talking to each other about this or that on their mock planes while on their way to jump ....

He said that there was so much noise inside the real C-47's on the way to D-Day that you couldn't have heard what another person was saying, let alone have carried on a conversation, assuming that you had even wanted to ...

And it was freezing in there ....

So your mind was on doing isometric exercises to keep from stiffening up too much in the cold ...

Before D-Day, he jumped into, or onto Sicily ....

He said that the American brass would go around to the various villages in Sicily and find out who the HEADMEN were, and then they would do some BID-NESS, and he and other paratroops would be sent off into the hills to hunt down and kill "BANDITOS" ....

Like they were being rented out by the day ...

They would be told where to find these "BANDITOS", and they were not to capture them for trial, they were to kill them ...

He always wondered about that, who these people really were ....

Somebody on the wrong side of those who held power, as perceived by the American brass was all he could ever conclude ....

And so ...

He wasn't for war, and of all the people that I know, he had probably seen the most of it ....

He thought invading IRAQINAM was about the most STOOOOPID thing that America had ever done, and he wasn't sure back then, because it was just getting going, whether it would prove to be way more STOOOOOPID than Viet Nam, or merely on a par ...

He lost his sight and as a result, I lost contact with him, which saddens me to this day ....

He was one of the most down-to-earth people that I have ever met ....'

And his solution to dealing with ******** was to simply turn his back on them ....

He said you send a lot more stronger message by turning your back on someone than you ever could by engaging in violence with them, which demeans you ....

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 02:02 PM) *
I have no desire to kill the FARC.

QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 1 2005 @ 06:56 AM)
I consider what Western civilization did to bring about the fall of the Soviet Union to have been a noble endeavour.

And although Vietnam was a military failure, Vietnam contributed to the ultimate success.

You should feel great pride in being a victorious cold warrior.

Would you not like to be a participant in what is regarded as a noble endeavour?

9/11 embarked American on another quest to make the world a better place.

Do you mind awful much, Arneoker, if I sit with you on your bench?
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 03:40 PM) *
I don't understand matrix algebra. I have actually taken some fancy math classes in college, and got pretty good grades in them, but have forgotten most of that stuff.

But I do understand what multiple regression is. And I understand the basic issues concerning using statistical variables to say things about the social sciences. What I know is that to understand how statistics works with social sciences is that you need to know more about how human beings interact with each other than you need to know about numbers.

I would edit:understand how the social sciences uses statistical analysis to describe and predict how
stick figures of Persons will act and react in standard situations, within a given error range. This methodology is then used to study and understand how human persons interact with other and to
the group as a whole.
Livyjr
QUOTE(Marine @ Oct 1 2005 @ 06:56 AM)
You should feel great pride in being a victorious cold warrior.

Would you not like to be a participant in what is regarded as a noble endeavour?

No ....

Not really ....

Not when it involves the killing of women and children, I wouldn't ....

Sorry ....

Have it without me ...

And so ....
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 04:46 PM) *
I would edit: understand how the social sciences uses statistical analysis to describe and predict how stick figures of Persons will act and react in standard situations, within a given error range.

This methodology is then used to study and understand how human persons interact with other and to the group as a whole.

Would you not like to be a participant in what is regarded as a noble endeavour, rla?
rla
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Jul 9 2008, 03:44 PM) *
That was not what I had in mind.

Do you think that our apish ancestors had some sort of Manichaean-type concept? Do we see something like that with chimps and gorillas?

No offense, just a random thought that collided with me while reading your post.
rla
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 05:48 PM) *
Would you not like to be a participant in what is regarded as a noble endeavour, rla?

Well, there are noble endeavers and there are noble endeavers. When I lived on a Mountain and the big Ice Storm came and a contract worker company for the power company sent a load of Office workers to cure my broken transformer pole... the Nobel Endeaver was that one of them was a
retired lineman, who got that group of "workers" lined out and had that pole replaced in no time.
Note to Livyjr: Don't encourage me.
rla
One thing I remember about being a Cold Warrior, I almost lost my first job, after getting out
of the Navy and finishing school because I wouldn't sign a Loyality Oath.
Indianhead
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 05:46 PM) *
No ....

Not really ....

Not when it involves the killing of women and children, I wouldn't ....

Sorry ....

Have it without me ...

And so ....


If I may suggest:

Don't take your contemporaries' debts on yourself...
or place them on others of later conflicts. I know the dues,
but limit them to those who f*cked up on their watch.

Killin' is a personal thing...understood personally by combat vets.
When a war is wrong it doesn't damn individuals...unless they damn themselves, IMHO.
Livyjr
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 05:11 PM) *
One thing I remember about being a Cold Warrior, I almost lost my first job, after getting out of the Navy and finishing school because I wouldn't sign a Loyality Oath.

I didn't know that you were a vet, rla ...

You keep it well hidden ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jul 9 2008, 05:17 PM) *
When a war is wrong it doesn't damn individuals...unless they damn themselves, IMHO.

We are supposed to know the difference, IH ...

And your post mostly lost me ....

And I have had a gutful of WAR as a NOBLE ENDEAVOR ....

I'm taking a pass this time around ...

And the next, as well ...

And so ....
Livyjr
AND SPEAKING OF THE NEXT "NOBLE ENDEAVOR" ....

IT SOUNDS LIKE IT IS ON THE WAY AS SCHEDULED ...

THE REPUBLICANS NEED A NATIONAL SECURITY CRISIS IN A BAD WAY BEFORE THE NOVEMBER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS SO THAT THEY CAN KEEP POWER OVER OUR TREASURY HERE IN AMERICA ...

WAR IS HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY ....

AND THEY NEED CONTROL OVER THE TREASURY TO KEEP FUNDING THEM ...

And so ...

"Analysis: US and Iran appear on collision course - Analysis: US and Iran seem set on Mideast collision course, missile tests raise tensions anew"


By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press

Last updated: 5:02 p.m., Wednesday, July 9, 2008

WASHINGTON -- The United States and Iran appear on a collision course in the Middle East, firing off mixed messages that are raising world tension and roiling oil markets amid fears that an eventual confrontation may be military.

Both insist war is not imminent, but their sharp words and provocative actions are stoking uncertainty as Washington and Tehran joust for strategic supremacy in the oil-rich region where American might -- along with that of its top ally in the area, Israel -- has long been dominant.


Concern spiked on Wednesday when Iran test-fired nine long- and medium-range missiles during war games in the Strait of Hormuz, aiming to show it can retaliate against any U.S. or Israeli attack.

The display followed a joint military exercise by Israel and Greece last month in the Mediterranean that many saw as a warning to Iran.

The Iranian missile tests drew a quick response from Washington, which said the launches were further reason not to trust a country that it already accuses of fomenting instability in Iraq, supporting Israel's foes and attempting to build nuclear weapons.

The testing sent oil prices higher before they calmed down later in the day.

This despite the fact that leaders on both sides -- President Bush and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- had just this week tried to tamp down speculation that the use of force is inevitable.

As he nears the end of his presidency, Bush says repeatedly that diplomacy is his preferred option to deal with any threat posed by Iran's nuclear program, although he has just as often refused to take the military option off the table.

Ahmadinejad, who has often spoken of wiping Israel off the map, this week dismissed talk of war as a "funny joke."

"I assure you that there won't be any war in the future," Ahmadinejad said Tuesday during a visit to Malaysia.

Shortly after Wednesday's missile tests, the White House didn't fling out any dire new warnings to Iran but settled for saying the testing was "completely inconsistent with Iran's obligations to the world" and served to further isolate the country.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice stood clear of discussing possible military responses, arguing that the tests instead were proof that a proposed missile shield for Europe, a system that has drawn vehement opposition from Russia, is vital to defending U.S. interests and allies.

At a Pentagon news conference, Gates allowed that there had been a "lot of signaling going on" in the escalation of rhetoric between Iran, Israel and the U.S., but he added he does not think confrontation is closer.

So why does speculation about conflict continue to grow?

A main reason may be that neither side appears able to judge the other's true intent.


U.S. officials say they can't discern Iran's motivations, citing the closed nature of the regime and ostensible differences between the country's hardline Islamic religious leaders, its Revolutionary Guards and moderates.

Some Iranian leaders may want peace, but not others, they say.

While Ahmadinejad tones down his rhetoric, others in Tehran have stepped up warnings of retaliation if the Americans -- or Israelis -- launch military action against Iran's nuclear sites.

They threaten to hit Israel and U.S. regional bases with missiles and stop oil traffic through the vital Gulf region.

Wednesday's launches "demonstrate our resolve and might against enemies who in recent weeks have threatened Iran with harsh language," said Gen. Hossein Salami, the Revolutionary Guard's air force commander, according to state media.

"Our hands are always on the trigger and our missiles are ready for launch," he was quoted as saying.


At the same time, the Iranian leadership may face a similar quandary in judging U.S. intentions.

While Bush, Gates and Rice are stressing diplomacy, other, more hawkish, elements of the administration, notably Vice President Dick Cheney, are using more bellicose language similar to that of Israeli officials who have been more outspoken about the possible use of force.

And, with Bush's second term waning, Iran's calculations are also likely to be guided by what it thinks the policies of the next U.S. president will be.

The Republican and Democratic candidates, John McCain and Barack Obama, both agree Iran is a threat.

But they differ on how to deal with it.

Obama said the tests underscored the need for direct diplomacy with Tehran, while McCain's response mirrored that of the Bush administration and focused on tougher sanctions against Iran.

Some analysts believe Bush will act militarily against Iran before he leaves office in six months and that if he doesn't, McCain will, if he is elected.

John Pike, the director of GlobalSecurity.org, a defense, security and space intelligence consultancy, is one.

"Bombing is either going to be the last thing Mr. Bush does or the first thing Mr. McCain does," he said.


------

EDITOR'S NOTE: Matthew Lee covers U.S. foreign policy for the Associated Press and has reported on diplomacy and international affairs for 14 years.
Indianhead
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 9 2008, 06:21 PM) *
We are supposed to know the difference, IH ...

And your post mostly lost me ....

And I have had a gutful of WAR as a NOBLE ENDEAVOR ....

I'm taking a pass this time around ...

And the next, as well ...

And so ....


We do know the difference...it's why we are here.
Those who did not kill women and children don't carry that damnation...
even if their contemporaries who did, do... when they knew.

I guess because I never saw our war as a noble endeavor...
I never got a gut full, I started with one.

We are both taking a pass this time as we are
ancient ...but, others who suit-up aren't...and I hope
they protect their souls. If they do...they're my new heros.
Because I give place to those who walk the walk...good times and bad.

I hope we can talk Iran out of nukes...but I limit my hopes.

rla
The Iranians can't force us to talk to them but they can force us to play games with them on the
world Psychodrama Stage. Bush will stay the course and get everything he ever wanted and
the tepid Democratic Party Leadership will continue to collaborate under the guise of Bi-partisanship.
We don't need no bi-partisanship, we need some Non-partisanship. We need to allow Emergent Leadership to occur...We need to re-affirm our Banner to get Rid of Corruption and Incompetence
in government and promote peace, prosperity and wellness.
Indianhead
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 9 2008, 06:48 PM) *
The Iranians can't force us to talk to them but they can force us to play games with them on the
world Psychodrama Stage. Bush will stay the course and get everything he ever wanted and
the tepid Democratic Party Leadership will continue to collaborate under the guise of Bi-partisanship.
We don't need no bi-partisanship, we need some Non-partisanship. We need to allow Emergent Leadership to occur...We need to re-affirm our Banner to get Rid of Corruption and Incompetence
in government and promote peace, prosperity and wellness.


"Emergent leadership"?...my head is spinning.
Does that mean "new" means "true"?

Lord save us from corporate-psycho theology.
"Wellness"? Is that a word? I guess I'm too f*ckin' simple.

I'm goin' underground...y'all dissect philosophical political correctness.
Indianhead
Livyjr if you have found your Kwan Jung Nim ...
present your weapon...pledge your servatude...
and take on your journey.

I pledge no such allegiance to an instructor
in politician's dress. I remain independently
unpledged. See that as you will. Xin Loi my boy.

I'm too dinky dow (dien cai dau) to bow.
Snuffysmith
A People's History of American Empire

By Howard Zinn

Empire or Humanity? What the Classroom Didn't Teach Me about the American Empire Continue

Livyjr
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jul 9 2008, 09:49 PM) *
Livyjr if you have found your Kwan Jung Nim ...

present your weapon...pledge your servatude...

and take on your journey.

I pledge no such allegiance to an instructor in politician's dress.

I remain independently unpledged.

See that as you will.

Xin Loi my boy.

I'm too dinky dow (dien cai dau) to bow.

Indianhead ....

I have no idea what language you are speaking here with your Kwan Jung Nim ...

And I have no clue as to how any of this relates to THIS thread's topic of ON PATRIOTISM ...

AND MY ALLEGIANCE HAS BEEN PLEDGED TO THE REPUBLIC ...

I thought that I had already made that clear in here ....

I don't put false idols or false prophets or false politicians or muscle-bound thugs in a military uniform or MERCENARIES in the hire of George W. Bush's "government" before that ...

And as UN-AMERICAN as it may sound, or wimpy, or sissified, I have no weapon ....

MY HANDS ARE EMPTY!

My "instructor" is LIFE ...

And DINKY DOW means crazy in Vietnamese, IH ...

Crazy in the head ...

"HIM DINKY DOW!"

I don't believe that you really are, because if you were, you wouldn't know it to be able to say it ...

Conversely, if you can call yourself DINKY DOW, it means that you are not totally there yet ....

HOWEVER ...

YOU ARE DEFINITELY OBSESSED!

To you, if somebody is not crawling and groveling at the feet of John McCain ...

Then they have to automatically be some kind of mindless drone who is a robot for Barack Obama ....

YOU BLIND YOURSELF ...

You're as bad as George W.(hack job) Bush in that regard ....

"IF YOU'RE NOT FOR JOHN McCAIN, THEN YOU ARE A MINDLESS FOOL WHO IS AGAINST INDIANHEAD FOR BEING FOR OBAMA!"

Have it your way, IH ....

By the way, did I say, "WELCOME HOME"?

If I didn't, WELCOME HOME!

And it is what we make of it ...

Not what we left behind ...

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jul 9 2008, 05:43 PM) *
I guess because I never saw our war as a noble endeavor...

I never got a gut full, I started with one.

Now, that is definitely on topic, IH ...

Thanks for sharing that ...

And WELCOME HOME, such as it is .....

And so ...
Livyjr
And I never saw WAR as a NOBLE ENDEAVOR, either ...

I did what I did out of a sense of DUTY ...

IF in fact we were being threatened over here, which we weren't, except by a lying president and duplicitous generals and admirals in the Pentagon, I thought that I had a duty as a citizen to go out there and stand on THE LINE, as Americans had done before me at STLLWATER-ON-THE-HUDSON, when "JACKIE BRAG" Burgoyne came south from Montreal to stomp us down and burn us out and take away our LIBERTY at the point of a long bayonet ...

What I have a gut-full of is having this NEO-CON "NOBLE ENDEAVOR" BULL**** pushed in my face by those who PROFIT off the killing of other human being WITHOUT THEM ACTUALLY HAVING TO EVER BE THERE FACE-TO-FACE WITH THE OTHER GUY TO DO IT ...

That is always for someone else to have to do ....

And calling in air-strikes from a distance is THE COWARD'S WAY ...

So too is using CRUISE MISSLES ...

Soooo ....

A morning riddle: WHAT SUPERPOWER HAS A COWARD FOR A LEADER?

And what does that say about his followers?

And so ...
Livyjr
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 06:27 AM) *
MARTIAL MORALITIES

Martial morality has always been a required discipline in Chinese martial arts society.

Before you learn any martial techniques, you should first understand this subject.

In Chinese martial arts society, it is well known that a student's success is not determined by his (her) external appearance, nor by how strong or weak he (she) is, but rather by the student's way of thinking, and his (her) morality.

Chinese martial artists have a saying: "A student will spend three years looking for a good teacher, and a teacher will test a student for three years."

A wise student realizes that it is better to spend several years looking for a good teacher than to spend the time learning from a mediocre one.

A good teacher will lead you to the right path, and will help you to build a strong foundation for your future training.

In addition, good teachers will always set a good example for their students with their spiritual and moral virtue.

Good martial arts teachers do not teach only martial techniques, they also teach a way of life!

- Yang, Jwing-Ming

And yes, IH ....

WELLNESS is a CONCEPT ...

And it is a word, as well ...

An empty word, when one doubts the concept has merit ...

Or does not practice fulfillment of the concept ....

But it can't be IMPOSED from without ....

It can be ASSIMILATED ....

But you can't beat wellness into people with a club ....

Somebody wants to come and try to do that with me, better bring a damn big club and a good-sized lunch, is my advice ...

And don't cry or whine overmuch about the lesson being too hard if I decide to do some "teaching" by beating back a bit ...

And so ...
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