Now ....

There is what I would call TRUE AMERICAN PATRIOTISM speaking out loud and clear ....

Well done, rla ...

You're a man of many surprises ....

And so ...

Keep them coming ...

And who George W.(hack job) Bush reminds me of is the partner to Michael Douglas in that movie Black Rain, when they are down in the parking garage, and the guy in question is chasing after the motorcycle dudes who have taken his jacket ....

"HEY, C'MON!"

"UNFAIR!"

"NOW GIVE ME BACK MY JACKET, I'M TELLING YOU!"

WHACK!

What a consummate fool!

And so ....

And speaking about CONSUMMATE FOOLS and WORLD-CLASS LIARS all in the same breath ....

They just had American Secretrary of State Condoleeza "CON-JOB CONNIE" Rice on the radio news, and she is braying that America is going to defend itself against Iran, as if Iran was about to invade the USA, or unleash SHOCK AND AWE on us by sending over swarms of CRUISE MISSLES to wipe us out here in the USA, all 300 MILLION of us spread out over 3500 miles from east to west and some 2500 miles or so north to south ....

IF THERE IS A THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, "CON-JOB CONNIE " RICE AND HER MOUTH ARE A CAUSE OF IT ...

Along with the weak-witted BOSS OF ALL BOSSES, KING OF ALL KINGS who she is in SERVITUDE to ....

And so ...

MEMO TO THE CANDID WORLD:

PLEASE!

DO NOT JUDGE ME BY THE MOUTH OF "CON-JOB" CONNIE RICE!

I AM NOT ONE OF HER SERVITORS!

SHE DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!

SHE IS AT BEST THE MOUTH-PIECE OF A LUNATIC FRINGE!

LESS THAN 3 PEOPLE OUT OF TEN IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

Thank you ...

And so ...

If you were to randomly assemble a group of 10 American citizens in a row in a room ....

Less than 3 of them, but more than 2 of them, would be for George W. Bush ....

Which is an interesting statement of where we are in the USA right now ....

And so ...

WHO CAN BELIEVE A LIAR?

"U.S. aid for Iraq oil deal denied - State Department rejects charges it improperly encouraged agreement"

By ANNE FLAHERTY, Associated Press

First published: Friday, July 4, 2008

WASHINGTON -- The State Department on Thursday denied charges by a House committee that it inappropriately encouraged a Texas-based oil company to strike an exploration deal with the Kurdish government in Iraq.

Hunt Oil Co.'s contract with the Kurds, reached last September, had angered Iraq's central government in Baghdad, which said any deals with foreign companies should not be signed until lawmakers agreed on how the nation's oil revenues would be divided.

The issue remains unresolved.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters that the department had advised all U.S. oil companies, including Hunt Oil Co., against making any deals in Iraq before the hydrocarbons law passed because it would aggravate political tensions.

If individuals had encouraged the deal, their actions would have been "contrary" to official administration policy, he said.

"We advised anybody who came to us that absent a hydrocarbons law they should defer signature of any contracts with any subregional institutions in Iraq," he said.

"That policy was conveyed."

But according to an investigation by the House Oversight and Government Affairs Committee, led by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., there is no evidence that the administration tried to dissuade the company.

Further, the committee's review of e-mail messages and other documents show that in some cases, State Department and other officials seemed to encourage the deal.

In one instance, a State Department regional coordinator wrote in an e-mail that he was glad to hear of Hunt Oil's efforts.

"Getting an American company to sign a deal with the (Kurds) will make big news back here," he told a colleague.

"Please keep us posted."

Another State Department official stationed in Iraq notified Hunt Oil of a second business opportunity and offered to provide additional information.

The messages would have run counter to public statements made by State Department officials in Washington at the time.

According to notes taken by Hunt Oil officials at a June 2007 meeting with U.S. officials in Iraq, the company was told specifically that the U.S. had no policy on the contracts.

Veterans Don't Forget - Robert Brudno, Washington Times opinion

Most veterans, particularly Vietnam-era veterans, know the pain their fellow Americans inflicted on those who fought that war. The "antiwar movement" - no matter how lofty its intentions - essentially blamed that war on the warriors and left deep scars on many of them. It has taken decades for those who choose military service to regain the respect of all of their countrymen. In the current presidential race, how a candidate proposes to deal with Iraq matters a lot to veterans and for them national interest trumps party affiliation.

Its better to be Well a day than sick a year.

I totally believe this. I was called on to make the distinction then...as I am now and following
WWII, having been born in 1935.

Which Flocks are these birds hiding out in? Any Third of us, appropriately placed, can
drive the Train.

But we have to keep in mind that when we combine statistics and social science we have to avoid the tempting illusion that if we get the statistics right then we have everything right. We have more to worry about than that error range.

Perhaps the chimps are more rational than we are when it comes to violence.

They are violent because that is their means to something basically vital, food.

We sometimes need to be violent, but it seems that more often we are violent for no rational purpose. And we have a lot of trouble telling the difference.

That depends upon what would have happened.

9/11 was an excuse that those nostalgiac for the Cold War latched onto. This was the "end of our holiday from History", a signal that the Cold War was not gone, it had just metamorphized. We needed to engage in power augmentation and maintenance, as opposed to power sharing, in order to construct a new security order for the world.

If it had not happened then folks like the neocons would have searched for something else to justify the proposition that augmenting U.S. power in the world was not only something necessary and good within a limited timeframe and considering a host of caveats, but something that is always inherently good for the world, no reservation.

Those were some old posts of Marine's!

I don't think he was right. Vietnam was a bump on the way to victory in the Cold War. Basically it was a victory for the whole Communist concept of "wars of national liberation". We let ourselves get sucked into a trap.

I am not saying that our military strategy had nothing to do with our victory. But the main thing that strategy did was build a strategic military machine that the Soviet Union could not hope to best because of their creaking economy. So they realized that their only hope was to conclude a peace on our terms, and do what they could to reform their own system, as opposed to hoping to dominate the West and force them to pay them tribute. Hence the emergence of Gorbachev. Also you did have a liberal component within the Soviet Union, people who had contact with the West and who saw through the bogus nature of their system.

But I think that victory was unsatisfying to many people. It just was not something that you could celebrate by a glorious military parade. Too much of it was achieved by the Soviets themselves.

And it ended. Where is the need for stategery? What is to justify a tight elite within this country planning grand moves and browbeating everyone else into line?

Well they now say that the War on Terror justifies that. I say it doesn't. I say terrorism is a serious problem, but a problem that needs to be dealt with by fundamentally different methods, and by a much looser alliance of nations.

Yes, there's an infinite number of ways for development to go wrong. Because protecting and enhancing the method is more important than any of its concrete and specific findings, Science
has its corrective procedures. It does take time. The quote above that, "It just takes time,"
is erroneous, I think. It takes carrying out a Program, at a place, over time, at multiple levels.

You have become our WELLNESS guru in here, rla ....

But if it is too much stress to be, then you don't have to be ....

And it's honorary, anyway ...

And so ...

Interesting, rla ....

Clearly, rla ...

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT, IN FACT ....

The less than a third who are FOR George W. Bush are in fact the ones driving the train ....

Snuffysmith's post above here demonstrates how that came to be ....

Essentially, it was better planning ....

".... attract to their banners leaders who can command the support of the controlling minorities in American public life."

My third is out in the dirt along the track right-of-way, where we landed after being tossed off of the train by the BUSHITE FEW ...

So that they could have it all for themselves ...

And so ....

In engineering, which is an applied science ...

If one wishes to model something ....

One takes real-world data, and one CALIBRATES the model, first ....

Then, the engineer has the model VERIFIED by having it OUTPUT results that mirror what one should expect and find in the real, physical world ....

There is no way to get this kind of data to calibrate a model about human beings ....

And then, you couldn't use it to predict anything, anyway ....

So you could never truly VERIFY it ....

And so ...

In many ways, this thread is a direct outgrowth of those words of Marine to me in my veteran's thread way back in 2005 ....

And I find myself in agreement with you that Marine fails to properly see and interpret HISTORY ...

You have the capacity in here to DISCERN for yourself that while violence is in fact a part of us, it really is a regressive part ....

A vestigial part ....

Marine sees the equation differently ....

MIGHT IS WHAT MAKES RIGHT, ALWAYS!

So the strongest makes what is right for everybody else ....

And the MORAL of Marine's story is to always be THE STRONGEST ....

And then you get to do the pushing around ....

Instead of being pushed ...

CLOCKWORK ORANGE, wasn't it?

And so ....

Thought provoking, Arneoker ...

Thanks for posting it here ...

And so ...

The part of the Flynn quote that bothers me is the supposition that the greatest danger lies, "in the presence in our midst of certain deeply running currents of hope and appetite and opinion."
This seems like a good thing to me.

YIN and YANG, rla ....

In "hope" lies the roots of "hopelessness" ...

The "mob" of Rome ....

Something that could be made into something quite dangerous by those very sentiments ....

Clodious Pulcher, and Milo ...

And so ...

In 1776 ...

When REVOLUTION was brewing here in OUR America ....

The music of Beethoven ....

Was being played ....

In Europe ...

The Lesson from Obama's Cowardly Flip-Flop
by Jacob G. Hornberger

Those who think that the election of Barack Obama will save the nation from its many foreign-policy/civil-liberties woes got smashed and dashed with a cold dose of reality. Flip-flopping in the finest political tradition, Obama voted in favor of President Bush’s wiretap/immunity bill, after promising to filibuster it before he secured the Democratic Party nomination.

Presumably, Obama’s thinking goes like this: “Now that I’ve secured the nomination of my party, liberals will vote for me regardless because they won’t want John McCain in power. So, I can now flip flop and taken different positions on foreign policy and civil liberties so that John McCain won’t be able to tell people that I’m soft on terrorism.”

Reminding people of what happened in 2002, when the Democrats unconstitutionally and cowardly delegated the power to declare war on Iraq to President Bush because of fear that the president would accuse them of being soft on Saddam Hussein, congressional Democrats voted to give Bush everything he wanted plus more in the wiretap/immunity bill, including civil immunity to private telecom companies for apparent felony offenses committed against their customers.

For an excellent analysis of the cowardly and craven cave-in by Obama and his fellow Democrats, see Glenn Greenwald’s blog and Jonathan Turley’s television interview, which is included in Greenwald’s June 9 blog. (Both Greenwald and Turley delivered terrific speeches at our recent conference “Restoring the Republic 2008: Foreign Policy and Civil Liberties.”)

Meanwhile, the president and his associates continue to threaten Iran with a military attack without even pretending that they’re going to first ask for a declaration of war from Congress, which the Constitution requires. Keep in mind that the Constitution is the law that we the people impose on the president and the Congress. That’s the law that the president feels that he can violate with impunity.

The fact is that Americans are living under a lawless regime, one in which the president feels that constitutional constraints are illegitimate during his “war on terrorism,” which he says will last indefinitely given that there are still so many terrorists and potential terrorists in the world. Never mind that the U.S. government’s own policies generate the terrorist threat against the United States, which is then used as the excuse for the president to operate in an omnipotent and extra-constitutional manner.

That’s what his signing statements, illegal wiretaps and other searches, enemy-combatant designations, torture and sex abuse camps, cancelation of habeas corpus, wars of aggression, indefinite detentions, and kangaroo military tribunals are all about — the power to ignore constitutional restraints — omnipotent power.

The battle over the wiretap/immunity bill demonstrates a critically important point, one that every lover of liberty must ultimately confront: It is not sufficient to fight every assault on civil liberties that comes down the pike. The infringements are endless. Even if one civil-liberties battle is won, there are always three more battles to wage.

Suppose, for example, that civil libertarians succeed in getting the Pentagon’s torture and sex abuse camp at Guantanamo Bay closed down. Would that end the torture and sex abuse? Of course not. They’ll simply start sending detainees to torture and sex abuse camps in Afghanistan or to friendly terrorist regimes, such as Syria (which they still claim they don’t talk to despite the fact that the CIA somehow or another made the arrangements with Syrian torturers to torture an innocent man on its behalf).

Thus, what every American who thirsts for the restoration of a normal, free society must recognize is that there is one — and only one — solution: the dismantling of America’s standing army, especially the military-industrial complex and the CIA, which are the center of the rot of the U.S. Empire. This is what should have been done when the Berlin Wall fell and it’s what should be done today.

That’s the root of the weed. That’s what needs to be pulled out of the ground. It’s not sufficient to simply continue trimming its branches.

That would mean the closing of every U.S. military base around the world — Europe, Asia, South America, and everywhere else. It would entail bringing all those troops home and discharging them into the private sector. It would entail closing the multitude of military bases all across the United States. It would entail the abolition of the CIA. It would include the repeal of the deadly and destructive war on drugs. It would entail the end of all foreign aid. It would mean the end of the U.S. government’s meddling in the affairs of other nations. It would entail the repeal of all the taxes that fund these people and their deadly, destructive, and nefarious operations.

Barack Obama’s cowardly flip flop should remind every American that the key to our future lies not in electing different people to public office. Instead, the key to our future lies in a shift in paradigms — from one of big government in foreign (and domestic) affairs to one of limited government in foreign (and domestic) affairs.

The time has come for the American people to do what Americans in 1787 were doing: reflecting upon the principles of liberty and limited government on which this nation should be based. The time has come to end the U.S. government’s role as the world’s policeman, intervener, interloper, aggressor, welfare provider, and sole remaining empire. The time has come for the American people to restore the principles of liberty and limited government that our ancestors bequeathed to us.

Mr. Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation.


http://fff.org/blog/index.asp

More emphasis on LIBERTY and less emphasize on the rhetorical concept of Government Size,
is needed. More emphasize on Government Function--how much and how well and show how it was cost effective. Too much of today's political discourse is to avoid communication. We gotta plan
our work and play and work and play our plan.

MNENOMIC: assisting or intended to assist memory ...

MNENOMICS: a technique of improving the memory ..

- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

I'm surprised that you did not pick up on any of this, rla ....

And so ....

I cannot look at an American flag today without being connnected to my entire life and the concept of THANKFULNESS .....

I cannot look at an American flag today without thinking about OUR Republic, and how it came into being, and what it means TO BE A PART of one ...

I cannot look at an American flag today without thinking of LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all, and what that requires of me as an American citizen, in return .....

And that is all from about an hour's worth of dissertation by my kindergarten teacher on the first day of kindergarten where I went to school when I was young ....

And so ....

QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 5 2008, 05:23 AM) YES, YES ....

And the meaning of that is something that I learned as a mere child, as well ...

The flag can be seen as a kind of dipper, like a water dipper ....

And OUR LIBERTY can be seen as the "water" in that dipper, since both water and LIBERTY out in the countryside are associated as being necessities for life ...

When the flag is being flown upside down, it means that OUR LIBERTY is in grave danger ....

Tip a dipper full of water upside down, and the water in it that sustains life pours out on the ground and is gone ...

Tip the flag upside down, and OUR LIBERTY pours out and is gone ....

So when someone sees the American flag being flown upside down, it is a sign to take heed - great danger abounds ....

And there is where we are today .....

And so ...

________________
I didn't know this. How sad.

I'm thinking, after a lot of very long and quite serious reflection on the subject, that the REAL TITLE of this thread should be:

THE REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS IN AMERICA ....

I think that in his own inimitable way, that is where Frenchy was trying to lead us in what might well be the first recorded instance of someone using Charades-like techniques on the internet to lead us to this conclusion - SOUNDS LIKE ________

And despite it's intentionally provocative and somewhat mis-leading title, which was but a device on Frenchy's part to make this into a real SUPER thought-exercise in here, I think that deep in his sub-conscious, Frenchy knew that it was time here in America to really have this necessary discussion on the obvious differences between LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES, and so he has given us this thread as our vehicle for doing so in here ....

I mean, something like this is never going to happen on the RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW ....

And so ...

And to me, the real main differences between LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES can readily be seen in what happened to this disabled veteran licensed engineer who was fighting CONSERVATIVE CORRUPTION up here in New York State ...

As their main ATTRIBUTES, I would say that the CONSERVATIVES have at least two, and these are really decisive:

a) ORGANIZATION; and

b) NO QUALMS WHATSOEVER CONCERNING THE USE OF VIOLENCE AND FALSEHOODS TO ACHIEVE THEIR ENDS ....

This is why but a handful of CONSERVATIVES can literally rule America and the world ....

LIBERALS have no organization ....

And LIBERALS cannot use violence effectively because they are too squeamish ....

This is Frenchy's INDICTMENT of Obama, on one level ....

When it comes to pulling the trigger, Frenchy feels that Obama just won't have what it takes to blow away some woman or child over in some other country that the CONSERVATIVES have their eye on ...

Whereas to blow that woman or child away, a CONSERVATIVE would not hesitate to take out a whole village, just to get it done ...

In a lot of ways, this thread of Frenchy's is to me the logical extension of the stream of consciousness that began iin my thread ON PATRIOTISM:

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...showtopic=95821

And I have to commend Frenchy in his efforts in here in that regard - to finally and decisively get this issue of WHAT MAKES CONSERVATIVES SO DIFFERENT FROM LIBERALS IN AMERICA out here on the table for a good group discussion ...

And so ...

Talk about a GESTALT MOMENT, alright ....

Frenchy has handed us all one here BIG TIME ....

So a SALUTE to Frenchy in here this morning from me ...

I salute your genius, Frenchy, in leading us to this point ...

And so ...

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/for...showtopic=96130

Remember Lee Iacocca, the man who rescued Chrysler Corporation from its death throes? He's now 82 years old and has a new book, and here are some excerpts...

Lee Iacocca Says:

'Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the hell is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder. We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car.

But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, 'Stay the course' Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America, not the damned 'Titanic'. I'll give you a sound bite: 'Throw all the bums out!' You might think I'm getting senile, that I've gone off my rocker, and maybe I have. But someone has to speak up.

I hardly recognize this country anymore. The most famous business leaders are not the innovators but the guys in handcuffs. While we're fiddling in Iraq, the Middle East is burning and nobody seems to know what to do. And the press is waving 'pom-poms' instead of asking hard questions. That's not the promise of the America my parents and yours traveled across the ocean for. I've had enough. How about you?

I'll go a step further. You can't call yourself a patriot if you're not outraged. This is a fight I'm ready and willing to have.

The Biggest 'C' is Crisis! (Iacocca elaborates on nine Cs of leadership, crisis being the first.).

Leaders are made, not born. Leadership is forged in times of crisis. It's easy to sit there with your feet up on the desk and talk theory. Or send someone else's kids off to war when you've never seen a battlefield yourself. It's another thing to lead when your world comes tumbling down.

On September 11, 2001, we needed a strong leader more than any other time in our history. We needed a steady hand to guide us out of the ashes. A Hell of a Mess So here's where we stand.

We're immersed in a bloody war with no plan for winning and no plan for leaving. We're running the biggest deficit in the history of the country. We're losing the manufacturing edge to Asia, while our once-great companies are getting slaughtered by health care costs. Gas prices are skyrocketing, and nobody in power has a coherent energy policy. Our schools are in trouble. Our borders are like sieves. The middle class is being squeezed every which way!

These are times that cry out for leadership. But when you look around, you've got to ask: 'Where have all the leaders gone?'

Where are the curious, creative communicators? Where are the people of character, courage, conviction, omnipotence, and common sense? I may be a sucker for alliteration, but I think you get the point.

Name me a leader who has a better idea for homeland security than making us take off our shoes in airports and throw away our shampoo? We've spent billions of dollars building a huge new bureaucracy, and all we know how to do is react to things that have already happened. Name me one leader who emerged from the crisis of Hurricane Katrina.

Congress has yet to spend a single day evaluating the response to the hurricane, or demanding accountability for the decisions that were made in the crucial hours after the storm.

Everyone's hunkering down, fingers crossed, hoping it doesn't happen again. Now, that's just crazy. Storms happen. Deal with it. Make a plan. Figure out what you're going to do the next time.

Name me an industry leader who is thinking creatively about how we can restore our competitive edge in manufacturing. Who would have believed that there could ever be a time when 'The Big Three' referred to Japanese car companies? How did this happen, and more important, what are we going to do about it?

Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debt, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem. The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.

I have news for the gang in Congress. We didn't elect you to sit on your asses and do nothing and remain silent while our democrac y is being hijacked and our greatness is being replaced with mediocrity. What is everybody so afraid of? That some bonehead on Fox News < <http://www.foxnews.com/>; http://www.foxnews.com/ > <http://www.foxnews.com/>; will cal them a name? Give me a break. Why don't you guys show some spine for a change?

Had Enough? Hey, I'm not trying to be the voice of gloom and doom here. I'm trying to light a fire. I'm speaking out because I have hope! I believe in America.

In my lifetime I've had the privilege of living through some of America's greatest moments. I've also experienced some of our worst crises: the 'Great Depression', 'World War II', the 'Korean War', the 'Kennedy Assassination', the 'Vietnam War', the 1970's oil crisis, and the struggles of recent years c ulminating with 9/11. If I've learned one thing, it's this: 'You don't get anywhere by standing on the sidelines waiting for somebody else to take action. Whether it's building a better car or building a better future for our children, we all have a role to play. 'That's the challenge I'm raising in this book. It's a call to 'Action' for people who, like me, believe in America. It's not too late, but it's getting pretty close. So let's shake off the crap and go to work. Let's tell 'em all we've had 'enough'.

Make your own contribution by sending this to everyone you know and care about. It's our country, folks; and it's our future. Our future is at stake!

Well, Snuf ...

It's a fight that I'm ready and willing to have as well ...

But since it is a fight against IGNORANCE, this is where I have chosen my "battlefield", in here ....

Will it make a difference?

Who knows ....

But saying and doing nothing certainly will ...

And so ...

I could not agree with Iacocca more, and the void of leadership in this country has not improved. Nov. 2nd, 2008 will be Ground Hog's Day!

If it is ...

The AMERICAN PEOPLE made it that way ...

So something is deperately wrong here in America somewhere ....

Something in the teaching and training and upbringing ....

America no longer has any clue or idea as to what it is, and what its role among civilized society is in a modern competitive inter-connected world ....

America has truly lost its way ...

It has no rudder ...

And no compass ....

But it does have the internet ...

And it does have us ...

And it is with us citizens that it must start ....

Not with any politicians ....

Our forefathers in liberty told us that they were ALL untrustworthy ....

And apparently, people in America chose to either disbelieve them ...

Or to EXPLOIT that, for whatever reason ....

And now ....

Well ...

Here we all are ....

And the American flag should be flying UPSIDE DOWN ....

OUR LIBERTY IS IN JEOPARDY ....

It is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of THEIR country ....

SPEAK UP ....

Or your silence gives your CONSENT ...

And so ...

Yup!...Which is why I won't vote the status quo.

It wasn't easy and it wasn't done quickly but at this time in the USA, we, as a Nation, have
rejected the concept of, "Leadership." It is too unpredictable. It must be allowed to emerge
from the Situation. We insist on maintaining the status quo.

We haven't reached the situation yet, but we're close...

Which is a public statement in here that you are not simply mindless ...

A REPUBLIC like ours cannot function any longer when the majority become MINDLESS ....

I believe that the events of the last eight years might refute you, Frenchy ...

The American people did vote for maintaining the STATUS QUO that George W. Bush represents ...

What gives your argument some possible validity is the fact the the American people turned the CONGRESS over to the DEMOCRATS in 2006 ....

But where the CONGRESS is viewed as GUTLESS and LARGELY WORTHLESS ...

It is hard to figure out how much weight to give that gesture as an act of rebellion as opposed to the acquiesence of keeping the STATUS QUO of George W. Bush in the WHITE HOUSE as COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF of OUR American military, as well as the executive power in charge of OUR federal budget ...

And so ...

Those events will pale as to what may be coming. Total catastrophe will manifest change.

Well, Frenchy ...

I would say that you and I were on the same page in here ...

And those eight years have been the PRECURSOR ...

And total catastrophe HAS to manifest change for total catastrophe is major change personified ....

TOTAL CATASTROPHE IS THE END OF WHAT WAS, BY DEFINITION ....

I think that it is the only thing that ever really does alter the existing status quo ....

When people are comfortable, then they are not amenable to change ....

They see no reason for it ....

Especially when the evidence indicates that it is their comfort which will be the ultimate cause of catastrophe, when the system that supplies them with their comfort can longer afford to keep up and provide ...

Which is pretty much where we have gotten to now, here in America ....

People have become valueless and expendible ....

Tokens on a game board, rather than human beings, anymore ....

And when this becomes the accepted status quo ....

The rapid decline of society back into chaos and darkness is usually pretty close behind ....

According to history, anyway ...

If that can ever be trusted to be any sort of guide ...

And so ...

"President Clinton warns of growing polarization"

By ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS, Associated Press

Last updated: 7:32 p.m., Saturday, July 12, 2008

PHILADELPHIA -- Former President Bill Clinton warned Saturday that the country is becoming increasingly polarized despite the historic nature of the Democratic primary.

Speaking at the National Governors Association's semiannual meeting, Clinton noted that on the one hand, following the early stages of the Democratic primary, "the surviving candidates were an African-American man and a woman."

Clinton's wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton, battled for the Democratic nomination into June with fellow Democrat Barack Obama, son of a white mother and black father.

But this achievement was overshadowed by a growing distance between Americans, said Clinton.

"Underneath this apparent accommodation to our diversity, we are in fact hunkering down in communities of like-mindedness, and it affects our ability to manage difference," Clinton said.

Clinton developed his 44-minute speech from themes he said he drew from a new book, "The Big Sort," by Bill Bishop.

He cited statistics compiled by Bishop that found that in the 1976 presidential election, only 20 percent of the nation's counties voted for Jimmy Carter or President Ford by more than a 20 percent margin.

By contrast, 48 percent of the nation's counties in 2004 voted for John Kerry or President Bush by more than 20 points, Clinton said.

"We were sorting ourselves out by choosing to live with people that we agree with," Clinton said.

Clinton has often meshed big picture admonitions with new books whose ideas he admires.

He drew similar conclusions in 2000 following the publication of Robert Putnam's "Bowling Alone," on the decline of civic engagement in the United States.

Among the approximately two dozen active governors in attendance Saturday were some of the 11 who backed Obama over Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Gov. Timothy Kaine of Virginia said he wasn't worried about how President Clinton might view his support for Obama.

"We're human beings, too, so there are feelings, but we understand this is a team sport, and we come back together as a team," Kaine said.

New York Gov. David Paterson, a Democratic superdelegate, had supported Clinton.

After weeks of not speaking to each other, Obama last month reached out to President Clinton and asked him for help winning the White House.

Clinton had portrayed Obama as too inexperienced to be president.

Clinton concluded his speech by reminding governors, who are marking the association's centennial, that the issues they face today are similar to problems President Teddy Roosevelt grappled with a century ago.

Those include inequality among rich and poor, immigration and energy policy.

If those issues are dealt with, "We're about to go into the most exciting period of human history," Clinton said.

"If we don't, in the words of President Roosevelt, dark will be the future," he said.

"I'm betting on light -- I hope you are too."

Clinton also devoted part of his speech to the Governors to developing the concept of, "Wellness."
His discussion about sorting our selves made me wonder whether we're modeling our behavior after Iraq or they modeling themselves after us?

Well consider our radically different situations wouldn't either course be a very bad idea?

No, on the issue of segregation and ethnic cleansing, it is a bad idea because we are too
much alike.

What on Earth are you talking about?

The Decline of Empires in the Past, the Future of the United States and the Contribution of President BushThe United States faces far more potential harm from the misguided policies of its own government than from any possible action of an external organization. The Bush administration has caused more damage to the U.S. and the welfare of its citizens than was caused by the attacks on 9/11 and more than any external organization could have caused since then. By Nathan Nahm

See Snuffy's post #644.

Can you quote the passages having to do with comparing segregation and ethnic cleansing in Iraq and the U.S., because I missed them.

I'm not modeling any of my behavior, rla, on what somebody in IRAQINAM might be doing ....

My behavior is governed by my upbringing in my community here where I am now ....

I have been here since 1949 ....

There never were any Iraqis here that I know of ....

And since I don't know any Iraqis now ...

I highly doubt that they are modeling their lives on mine ....

Nor would they necessarily want to ....

And so ...

It seems it to me ...

And this, I believe, is a part of what is considered to be UNSUFFERABLE ARROGANCE in the world on the part of America ....

This belief that everybody in the world wants to live, dress and talk just like an American does ....

The ones who don't, those we simply kill ....

And here we now are ....

Talking about it on the internet under the heading of ON PATRIOTISM ....

I don't think we have enough, Arneoker .......

Not enough of the HEALTHY KIND ...

If we did, we wouldn't be at war in IRAQINAM right now ...

So we wouldn't have cause to be having this conversation ...

But since we have failed as a nation at maintaining a state of peace in the world ....

Well ...

And so ...

And I will say that it is axiomatic that a nation which is at war has failed to maintain the peace ...

That is something which goes without saying ....

And so ...

rla ...

We didn't have SEGREGATION up here where I am ....

We didn't have SEPARATE BUT EQUAL up here, either ....

Some places in America did, I am told ....

But not up here where I am ....

Slavery in New York State was outlawed by constitutional decree in the 1820's or so ...

But outside of wanting to make that clear ....

I understand full well what you are stating ....

The Iraqis should be Iraqis ....

We should be Americans ...

We should look back to OUR own roots, and we should leave off with sticking our long pointy American noses into the business of some people over there in Iraq ...

We should lose this notion that only our way of life over here is suitable for all the peoples of the earth ...

Learn a little humility ....

Before an angry GOD teaches us some ....

And so ....

I can agree with you on all of that, rla ....

It sounds like a sane way to go through life to me, especially as we get older ...

And have less patience with GROSS STUPIDITY than we did when younger ...

And so ...