Full Version: ON PATRIOTISM
Do Our Rights Come from the Constitution?
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 17 2008, 08:28 PM) 
And then, Snuf, I am going to turn right around in here and say that when LIBERTY is defined, here in America, as "THE ABSENCE OF ARBITRARY RESTRAINT, NOT IMMUNITY FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY" ...
Then that is in fact a BEDROCK-SOLID CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN PRINCIPLE that I adhere to as an American citizen ...
BUT ....
In the United States of America today, WE DO NOT HAVE THAT LIBERTY ...
In the United States of today, especially under George W. Bush, and Dick Cheney and the REPUBLICAN PARTY, we do not have that LIBERTY, because there is IMMUNITY FOR SOME FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY ...
Our local laws are now worthless ....
Our state laws and constitutions are similarly worthless ...
Powerful SPECIAL INTERESTS from other states can waltz right into New York State and have our laws and rules and regulations NOT APPLY to them ....
And we cannot challenge this, since we are closed out of the courts up here, by the special interests ....
When there is in fact IMMUNITY FOR THE CONNECTED AND POLITICALLY-POWERFUL FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY, then there is no true LIBERTY ...
And so ....
Then that is in fact a BEDROCK-SOLID CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN PRINCIPLE that I adhere to as an American citizen ...
BUT ....
In the United States of America today, WE DO NOT HAVE THAT LIBERTY ...
In the United States of today, especially under George W. Bush, and Dick Cheney and the REPUBLICAN PARTY, we do not have that LIBERTY, because there is IMMUNITY FOR SOME FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY ...
Our local laws are now worthless ....
Our state laws and constitutions are similarly worthless ...
Powerful SPECIAL INTERESTS from other states can waltz right into New York State and have our laws and rules and regulations NOT APPLY to them ....
And we cannot challenge this, since we are closed out of the courts up here, by the special interests ....
When there is in fact IMMUNITY FOR THE CONNECTED AND POLITICALLY-POWERFUL FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY, then there is no true LIBERTY ...
And so ....
No argument here.
To every high-school student in this country between the ages of 15 and 18, this letter is to you. If there is ever something that you should take the time to learn about, it is government. Why? — you ask. If your idea of government is endless babbling by old congressional codgers on C-SPAN, you’re partly right. The art of government, or politics, is less entertaining than a visit to the dentist. However, hidden among all the babble of congressional rules and yeas and nays that you hear on television, the real secret that is never explained to you in school is that government is force, and government can use this force to violate your rights.
It is through government that other people can take your money, forbid you to visit foreign countries, prevent you from drinking alcohol, mandate attendance in public (i.e., government) schools, and even force you into the military to possibly die in battle thousands of miles away from American shores. In short, you need to be interested in government because government officials can adversely affect your lives in the most serious of ways.
Since government at its basic level is force, what should the role of government be? After all, with force government can act in just about any way that we allow it to, right or wrong. Philosophers have debated the question for centuries, but a sound rule of thumb that has emerged is that government should defend our rights, while at the same time not violate them.
In other words, government should protect us from the violence of others but not initiate violence against us. The government should not be allowed to steal from us, it should not be allowed to enslave us, and it should not be allowed to murder us. In short, it should protect our fundamental rights but not transgress them.
It sounds pretty straightforward, doesn’t it? Government should not prevent any activity that does not violate the rights of another person. However, you’ll see, in fact, that most of the things that government does today violate individual liberty in one way or another. Let’s look at a few examples.
The drug war
One example that all of you are probably familiar with is the drug war. This ought to be an easy one for all of you. You probably have friends who have done drugs, and you may have even heard of undercover narcs in your school. I am certainly not telling you that doing drugs is okay because, as you have been told a million times by your parents and teachers, drugs can and do kill people. At the very least, they can numb your brain and make you stupid. However, what your parents and teachers do not tell you is that government has no right to throw anyone in jail for doing drugs. If someone sits in front of his television and smokes a joint, whose rights has he violated? Nobody’s!
Last year alone, more than 1.8 million people were arrested on drug offenses and, with the exception of those who used violence against others, not one of them deserves to be behind bars. Plain and simple, drugs should be legalized, even the hard ones. As long as people don’t initiate force against others in the process, people should be free to do unhealthy things. That’s what genuine freedom is all about it.
Conscription
The draft is another example of the government’s violation of individual rights, and this one could have a profound effect on you. You may not be familiar with the draft, but you should be, because it is a program the government uses to enslave people your age. The draft is the process whereby the government selects people to be part of the military. If your name is selected, you have no choice — you must obey or be punished. If the country is at war at the time you are drafted, you will go through a short training period and then you will be sent into battle, most likely in some faraway country. On the battlefield of whatever country you are sent to, you will have to kill others in order to survive and you may die yourself, most likely for a cause that’s not worth killing or dying for.
Slavery is one of the most despicable crimes that can be committed against anyone, and forcing a person to fight in an army is among the worst forms of slavery. Not only is the victim’s labor stolen but there is also a good chance he will die in the process. The draft is one of the most egregious violations of individual rights our country has ever committed. If he were alive, you could ask Daniel Webster, who penned a famous essay entitled “On Conscription,” which you can easily find on the Internet.
The idea that the government would draft you may sound far-fetched to you right now, but it is has happened before. Ask your parents about the Vietnam War; they will certainly know people who were enslaved and perhaps even died as a result of the draft. And ominously for you, there is talk in the air of instituting the draft again to serve in the occupation of Iraq. If you didn’t know that, you need to pay more attention to government.
Welfare
Third, contrary to what your teachers may have taught you, government welfare is not charity. It is theft. Social Security is not the warm and fuzzy charitable retirement program that you have been led to believe it is. It is instead a scheme that enables the government to take money (by force) from one group of people — i.e., the young and productive, most of whom are struggling to start families — in order to give it to a group of elderly people, many of whom have plenty of money saved up after decades of work.
Let’s suppose that you are hungry but you have no lunch money. In order to buy lunch, you beat up a middle-schooler and take his pocket change to feed yourself. I know all of you would agree that this would be wrong. Theft is always wrong, no matter what the intention is, no matter how hungry you are.
Yet this is exactly what government does with Social Security when it takes the wages of the working to give to the elderly. The only difference is that instead of beating you up, they use the IRS to take your money. If you don’t pay your taxes to the IRS, government agents may not beat you up but they will send you to jail. How can it be right for the government to take one person’s money and give it to someone else, especially when it is clearly so wrong for anyone else to do so?
No matter how well-intentioned, the government cannot morally take from one person what is rightfully his and transfer it to another person. Charity exists only when a person voluntarily gives his money or time to help someone out. The only moral way to help the elderly, sick, and poor is to freely give your time or money. Good examples abound, such as the work your church or local soup kitchen does.
Social Security, and all other government programs that transfer money from one person to another, are legalized theft and should be abolished. Americans lived without these welfare-theft programs for more than 125 years; our ancestors believed in voluntary charity, not coerced welfare. If you did not know that, you should pay more attention to government.
Gun control
Gun control is another issue that most young people don’t understand because they have been taught that guns are dangerous and responsible for the deaths of countless persons every year. It is true that guns are dangerous, but people are responsible for the deaths of those they shoot, not the guns they use. Guns are only tools, and they are dangerous only in the hands of dangerous or careless people. Keep in mind that every person has a natural right to defend himself, even with a gun, as long he doesn’t violate the rights of others in the process.
I am sure that you have heard of the Second Amendment to the Constitution — it guarantees the natural right we all have to keep and bear arms. In other words, the government is not legally permitted to do anything to take our guns away. When the Constitution was written in 1787, why would the authors want to make sure that we could all keep our guns? Your civics teacher will never tell you this, but the reason is so that we could defend ourselves against our own government should the need ever arise.
Does this sound crazy to you? If so, listen to what Thomas Jefferson had to say about gun ownership: “What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” These are not the words of some whacko, but rather of the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence.
You should be extremely outraged at any politician who favors the idea of gun control. Though it seems like a small and meaningless act, taking away guns from the citizens of a country is one of the first steps that dictators take to rule their countries with iron fists. They know that once the people have been disarmed, there is nothing they can do to stop the government from violating individual rights. As long as citizens are armed, politicians will always think twice about doing very bad things to their own people. If you didn’t know why the Founding Fathers wanted you to own guns, you should pay more attention to government.
There are many more examples of the abuses that we suffer at the hands of government, but as long as you learn this one lesson — that government is the biggest threat to the freedom of its citizenry — you are well on the way to becoming an educated citizen and a patriot. There are no parting words more appropriate with which I could leave you than these words attributed to George Washington: “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
That is why you should pay attention to government.
http://fff.org/freedom/fd0703d.asp
It is through government that other people can take your money, forbid you to visit foreign countries, prevent you from drinking alcohol, mandate attendance in public (i.e., government) schools, and even force you into the military to possibly die in battle thousands of miles away from American shores. In short, you need to be interested in government because government officials can adversely affect your lives in the most serious of ways.
Since government at its basic level is force, what should the role of government be? After all, with force government can act in just about any way that we allow it to, right or wrong. Philosophers have debated the question for centuries, but a sound rule of thumb that has emerged is that government should defend our rights, while at the same time not violate them.
In other words, government should protect us from the violence of others but not initiate violence against us. The government should not be allowed to steal from us, it should not be allowed to enslave us, and it should not be allowed to murder us. In short, it should protect our fundamental rights but not transgress them.
It sounds pretty straightforward, doesn’t it? Government should not prevent any activity that does not violate the rights of another person. However, you’ll see, in fact, that most of the things that government does today violate individual liberty in one way or another. Let’s look at a few examples.
The drug war
One example that all of you are probably familiar with is the drug war. This ought to be an easy one for all of you. You probably have friends who have done drugs, and you may have even heard of undercover narcs in your school. I am certainly not telling you that doing drugs is okay because, as you have been told a million times by your parents and teachers, drugs can and do kill people. At the very least, they can numb your brain and make you stupid. However, what your parents and teachers do not tell you is that government has no right to throw anyone in jail for doing drugs. If someone sits in front of his television and smokes a joint, whose rights has he violated? Nobody’s!
Last year alone, more than 1.8 million people were arrested on drug offenses and, with the exception of those who used violence against others, not one of them deserves to be behind bars. Plain and simple, drugs should be legalized, even the hard ones. As long as people don’t initiate force against others in the process, people should be free to do unhealthy things. That’s what genuine freedom is all about it.
Conscription
The draft is another example of the government’s violation of individual rights, and this one could have a profound effect on you. You may not be familiar with the draft, but you should be, because it is a program the government uses to enslave people your age. The draft is the process whereby the government selects people to be part of the military. If your name is selected, you have no choice — you must obey or be punished. If the country is at war at the time you are drafted, you will go through a short training period and then you will be sent into battle, most likely in some faraway country. On the battlefield of whatever country you are sent to, you will have to kill others in order to survive and you may die yourself, most likely for a cause that’s not worth killing or dying for.
Slavery is one of the most despicable crimes that can be committed against anyone, and forcing a person to fight in an army is among the worst forms of slavery. Not only is the victim’s labor stolen but there is also a good chance he will die in the process. The draft is one of the most egregious violations of individual rights our country has ever committed. If he were alive, you could ask Daniel Webster, who penned a famous essay entitled “On Conscription,” which you can easily find on the Internet.
The idea that the government would draft you may sound far-fetched to you right now, but it is has happened before. Ask your parents about the Vietnam War; they will certainly know people who were enslaved and perhaps even died as a result of the draft. And ominously for you, there is talk in the air of instituting the draft again to serve in the occupation of Iraq. If you didn’t know that, you need to pay more attention to government.
Welfare
Third, contrary to what your teachers may have taught you, government welfare is not charity. It is theft. Social Security is not the warm and fuzzy charitable retirement program that you have been led to believe it is. It is instead a scheme that enables the government to take money (by force) from one group of people — i.e., the young and productive, most of whom are struggling to start families — in order to give it to a group of elderly people, many of whom have plenty of money saved up after decades of work.
Let’s suppose that you are hungry but you have no lunch money. In order to buy lunch, you beat up a middle-schooler and take his pocket change to feed yourself. I know all of you would agree that this would be wrong. Theft is always wrong, no matter what the intention is, no matter how hungry you are.
Yet this is exactly what government does with Social Security when it takes the wages of the working to give to the elderly. The only difference is that instead of beating you up, they use the IRS to take your money. If you don’t pay your taxes to the IRS, government agents may not beat you up but they will send you to jail. How can it be right for the government to take one person’s money and give it to someone else, especially when it is clearly so wrong for anyone else to do so?
No matter how well-intentioned, the government cannot morally take from one person what is rightfully his and transfer it to another person. Charity exists only when a person voluntarily gives his money or time to help someone out. The only moral way to help the elderly, sick, and poor is to freely give your time or money. Good examples abound, such as the work your church or local soup kitchen does.
Social Security, and all other government programs that transfer money from one person to another, are legalized theft and should be abolished. Americans lived without these welfare-theft programs for more than 125 years; our ancestors believed in voluntary charity, not coerced welfare. If you did not know that, you should pay more attention to government.
Gun control
Gun control is another issue that most young people don’t understand because they have been taught that guns are dangerous and responsible for the deaths of countless persons every year. It is true that guns are dangerous, but people are responsible for the deaths of those they shoot, not the guns they use. Guns are only tools, and they are dangerous only in the hands of dangerous or careless people. Keep in mind that every person has a natural right to defend himself, even with a gun, as long he doesn’t violate the rights of others in the process.
I am sure that you have heard of the Second Amendment to the Constitution — it guarantees the natural right we all have to keep and bear arms. In other words, the government is not legally permitted to do anything to take our guns away. When the Constitution was written in 1787, why would the authors want to make sure that we could all keep our guns? Your civics teacher will never tell you this, but the reason is so that we could defend ourselves against our own government should the need ever arise.
Does this sound crazy to you? If so, listen to what Thomas Jefferson had to say about gun ownership: “What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.” These are not the words of some whacko, but rather of the man who wrote the Declaration of Independence.
You should be extremely outraged at any politician who favors the idea of gun control. Though it seems like a small and meaningless act, taking away guns from the citizens of a country is one of the first steps that dictators take to rule their countries with iron fists. They know that once the people have been disarmed, there is nothing they can do to stop the government from violating individual rights. As long as citizens are armed, politicians will always think twice about doing very bad things to their own people. If you didn’t know why the Founding Fathers wanted you to own guns, you should pay more attention to government.
There are many more examples of the abuses that we suffer at the hands of government, but as long as you learn this one lesson — that government is the biggest threat to the freedom of its citizenry — you are well on the way to becoming an educated citizen and a patriot. There are no parting words more appropriate with which I could leave you than these words attributed to George Washington: “Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
That is why you should pay attention to government.
http://fff.org/freedom/fd0703d.asp
In the BILL OF RIGHTS of the New York State Constitution, Snuf, which is ARTICLE I http://www.senate.state.ny.us/lbdcinfo/senconstitution.html , there is this statement at section 14, to wit:
§ 14. Such parts of the common law, and of the acts of the legislature of the colony of New York, as together did form the law of the said colony, on the nineteenth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-five, and the resolutions of the congress of the said colony, and of the convention of the State of New York, in force on the twentieth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-seven, which have not since expired, or been repealed or altered; and such acts of the legislature of this state as are now in force, shall be and continue the law of this state, subject to such alterations as the legislature shall make concerning the same.
But all such parts of the common law, and such of the said acts, or parts thereof, as are repugnant to this constitution, are hereby abrogated.
end quotes
Thus, I would say, is established the definition of LIBERTY under the law in New York State today ...
To have true LIBERTY, you have to be able to understand and comprehend the law, and to know the origins of that law, as well ...
Section 14 of ARTICLE I of the New York State Constitution serves in New York State to provide us common citizens with such guidance and knowledge ....
And it is the COMMON LAW which makes life in a close-packed civilized society possible, I think, anyway ...
RESTATEMENT OF TORTS ....
The definition of TRESPASS ...
The TEN COMMANDMENTS tells us to not trespass ....
The RESTATEMENT OF TORTS in New York State is supposed to inform us as citizens how exactly it is that we common citizens up here actually comply with that commandment as law-abiding citizens of New York State ...
However, when in New York State, we have gone back to a system where there is now IMMUNITY FOR THE CONNECTED AND POLITICALLY-POWERFUL FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY, then there is no true LIBERTY for the citizens of this state because RIGHT TO TRESPASS has become the operative "law" in this state, instead of what is actually stated as organic law in our state Constitution ....
The COMMON LAW has gone out the window here in New York State despite section 14 of ARTICLE I of our state Constitution ...
As a STAUNCH AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE, I am for the New York State Constitution as it is written ...
Which makes me an "enemy" of those who call themselves CONSERVATIVES here in New York State ....
And so it goes ....
LABELS CAN BE CONFUSING ...
And so ...
§ 14. Such parts of the common law, and of the acts of the legislature of the colony of New York, as together did form the law of the said colony, on the nineteenth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-five, and the resolutions of the congress of the said colony, and of the convention of the State of New York, in force on the twentieth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-seven, which have not since expired, or been repealed or altered; and such acts of the legislature of this state as are now in force, shall be and continue the law of this state, subject to such alterations as the legislature shall make concerning the same.
But all such parts of the common law, and such of the said acts, or parts thereof, as are repugnant to this constitution, are hereby abrogated.
end quotes
Thus, I would say, is established the definition of LIBERTY under the law in New York State today ...
To have true LIBERTY, you have to be able to understand and comprehend the law, and to know the origins of that law, as well ...
Section 14 of ARTICLE I of the New York State Constitution serves in New York State to provide us common citizens with such guidance and knowledge ....
And it is the COMMON LAW which makes life in a close-packed civilized society possible, I think, anyway ...
RESTATEMENT OF TORTS ....
The definition of TRESPASS ...
The TEN COMMANDMENTS tells us to not trespass ....
The RESTATEMENT OF TORTS in New York State is supposed to inform us as citizens how exactly it is that we common citizens up here actually comply with that commandment as law-abiding citizens of New York State ...
However, when in New York State, we have gone back to a system where there is now IMMUNITY FOR THE CONNECTED AND POLITICALLY-POWERFUL FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY, then there is no true LIBERTY for the citizens of this state because RIGHT TO TRESPASS has become the operative "law" in this state, instead of what is actually stated as organic law in our state Constitution ....
The COMMON LAW has gone out the window here in New York State despite section 14 of ARTICLE I of our state Constitution ...
As a STAUNCH AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE, I am for the New York State Constitution as it is written ...
Which makes me an "enemy" of those who call themselves CONSERVATIVES here in New York State ....
And so it goes ....
LABELS CAN BE CONFUSING ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 17 2008, 01:28 PM)
Do Our Rights Come from the Constitution?
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 17 2008, 01:51 PM)
In the BILL OF RIGHTS of the New York State Constitution, Snuf, which is ARTICLE I http://www.senate.state.ny.us/lbdcinfo/senconstitution.html , there is this statement at section 14, to wit:
§ 14. Such parts of the common law, and of the acts of the legislature of the colony of New York, as together did form the law of the said colony, on the nineteenth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-five, and the resolutions of the congress of the said colony, and of the convention of the State of New York, in force on the twentieth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-seven, which have not since expired, or been repealed or altered; and such acts of the legislature of this state as are now in force, shall be and continue the law of this state, subject to such alterations as the legislature shall make concerning the same.
But all such parts of the common law, and such of the said acts, or parts thereof, as are repugnant to this constitution, are hereby abrogated.
§ 14. Such parts of the common law, and of the acts of the legislature of the colony of New York, as together did form the law of the said colony, on the nineteenth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-five, and the resolutions of the congress of the said colony, and of the convention of the State of New York, in force on the twentieth day of April, one thousand seven hundred seventy-seven, which have not since expired, or been repealed or altered; and such acts of the legislature of this state as are now in force, shall be and continue the law of this state, subject to such alterations as the legislature shall make concerning the same.
But all such parts of the common law, and such of the said acts, or parts thereof, as are repugnant to this constitution, are hereby abrogated.
In New York State, my rights as a citizen come to me supposedly from the BILL OF RIGHTS of the New York State Constitution, and the COMMON LAW as it existed in New York colony in 1775 ...
The United States Constitution reflects the fact that I have those rights ....
Supposedly, anyway ...
Because when you cannot get inside a closed courtroom to defend those rights ....
THEN YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE DOODLY-SQUAT ....
And so it is ...
And so ...
Liv, this somehow seems to belong in this thread.
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 18 2008, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 4 2008, 06:39 AM)
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the REPUBLICc for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 06:44 AM)
AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS ....
As a child, TROU, did you have a full vocabulary when you went to kindergarten?
I certainly didn't ....
But I could assimilate SYMBOLS ....
It is like that old country song about the soldier in Korea with the deck of cards in church ....
What is that - MNENOMICS?
I show you a symbol, and you can then associate that symbol with something that is conceptual, like a REPUBLIC?
A certain number of stripes STANDS for something else ....
A certain number of STARS stands for something else ....
When I was young, the flag had forty-eight stars on it, BY THEN ...
One time, it only had thirteen ...
It had 48, because in the United States of America, there was a LAWFUL PROCESS for adding more stars, which represented individual states ....
OUR JOB AS CHILDREN WAS TO LEARN AND UNDERSTAND THE LAWFUL PROCESS SO THAT WE COULD FUNCTION AS CITIZENS OVER HERE ...
As a child, TROU, did you have a full vocabulary when you went to kindergarten?
I certainly didn't ....
But I could assimilate SYMBOLS ....
It is like that old country song about the soldier in Korea with the deck of cards in church ....
What is that - MNENOMICS?
I show you a symbol, and you can then associate that symbol with something that is conceptual, like a REPUBLIC?
A certain number of stripes STANDS for something else ....
A certain number of STARS stands for something else ....
When I was young, the flag had forty-eight stars on it, BY THEN ...
One time, it only had thirteen ...
It had 48, because in the United States of America, there was a LAWFUL PROCESS for adding more stars, which represented individual states ....
OUR JOB AS CHILDREN WAS TO LEARN AND UNDERSTAND THE LAWFUL PROCESS SO THAT WE COULD FUNCTION AS CITIZENS OVER HERE ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 11 2008, 04:01 PM)
MNENOMIC: assisting or intended to assist memory ...
MNENOMICS: a technique of improving the memory ..
- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary
I'm surprised that you did not pick up on any of this, rla ....
And so ....
I cannot look at an American flag today without being connnected to my entire life and the concept of THANKFULNESS .....
I cannot look at an American flag today without thinking about OUR Republic, and how it came into being, and what it means TO BE A PART of one ...
I cannot look at an American flag today without thinking of LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all, and what that requires of me as an American citizen, in return .....
And that is all from about an hour's worth of dissertation by my kindergarten teacher on the first day of kindergarten where I went to school when I was young ....
And so ....
MNENOMICS: a technique of improving the memory ..
- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary
I'm surprised that you did not pick up on any of this, rla ....
And so ....
I cannot look at an American flag today without being connnected to my entire life and the concept of THANKFULNESS .....
I cannot look at an American flag today without thinking about OUR Republic, and how it came into being, and what it means TO BE A PART of one ...
I cannot look at an American flag today without thinking of LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all, and what that requires of me as an American citizen, in return .....
And that is all from about an hour's worth of dissertation by my kindergarten teacher on the first day of kindergarten where I went to school when I was young ....
And so ....
Boy, it sure does, CO ...
Thank you very much for that ....
I could be one of those kids in that picture, the one bending over in green pants, maybe, learning about citizenship DUTIES and RESPONSIBILITIES in a REPUBLIC that was but a part of a civilized world that just wanted no more war ....
Learning about my place in it from the powerful symbolism that is the flag of the United States of America ...
The Stars and Stripes ....
What it is that they were always supposed to mean to me as an American citizen ..
I honestly think from your writings, CO, that you have a much better grasp of what it really does mean to be a citizen of "AMERICA" than do many of the people who were born down here ....
And I am truly honored that you choose to share your thoughts on "citizenship" with us as you perceive it to be from your perch to the north of us here, and across an international border ...
The United States of America NEED a CANDID WORLD to always be watching us, is my thought, lest we get above our raising down here ....
And become too uppity out there in the world in our overtowering arrogance ...
Thinking in our arrogance that somehow, we are automatically entitled to be the "LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD" ...
When we don't even have LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all right here in the USA ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 18 2008, 04:20 PM)
Boy, it sure does, CO ...
Thank you very much for that ....
I could be one of those kids in that picture, the one bending over in green pants, maybe, learning about citizenship DUTIES and RESPONSIBILITIES in a REPUBLIC that was but a part of a civilized world that just wanted no more war ....
Learning about my place in it from the powerful symbolism that is the flag of the United States of America ...
The Stars and Stripes ....
What it is that they were always supposed to mean to me as an American citizen ..
I honestly think from your writings, CO, that you have a much better grasp of what it really does mean to be a citizen of "AMERICA" than do many of the people who were born down here ....
And I am truly honored that you choose to share your thoughts on "citizenship" with us as you perceive it to be from your perch to the north of us here, and across an international border ...
The United States of America NEED a CANDID WORLD to always be watching us, is my thought, lest we get above our raising down here ....
And become too uppity out there in the world in our overtowering arrogance ...
Thinking in our arrogance that somehow, we are automatically entitled to be the "LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD" ...
When we don't even have LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all right here in the USA ....
And so ...
Thank you very much for that ....
I could be one of those kids in that picture, the one bending over in green pants, maybe, learning about citizenship DUTIES and RESPONSIBILITIES in a REPUBLIC that was but a part of a civilized world that just wanted no more war ....
Learning about my place in it from the powerful symbolism that is the flag of the United States of America ...
The Stars and Stripes ....
What it is that they were always supposed to mean to me as an American citizen ..
I honestly think from your writings, CO, that you have a much better grasp of what it really does mean to be a citizen of "AMERICA" than do many of the people who were born down here ....
And I am truly honored that you choose to share your thoughts on "citizenship" with us as you perceive it to be from your perch to the north of us here, and across an international border ...
The United States of America NEED a CANDID WORLD to always be watching us, is my thought, lest we get above our raising down here ....
And become too uppity out there in the world in our overtowering arrogance ...
Thinking in our arrogance that somehow, we are automatically entitled to be the "LEADERS OF THE FREE WORLD" ...
When we don't even have LIBERTY and JUSTICE for all right here in the USA ....
And so ...
I share your appreciation for CO and for her caring about a world larger than herself and her possessions. My own love for the US of A spreads over into Canada and Mexico. The discussion on this thread has often carried me back into my memory bank. I regret that no one around me
had the foresight to imprint me more strongly with the flag imagary at an early age. Marching in parades in the Military usually wasn't very reinforcing and then there was all the flag burning controversies relating to my opposition to the Viet Nam war, so I have mixed feelings about the
flag, but not about my community and Country.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 18 2008, 04:56 PM)
I share your appreciation for CO and for her caring about a world larger than herself and her possessions.
My own love for the US of A spreads over into Canada and Mexico.
The discussion on this thread has often carried me back into my memory bank.
I regret that no one around me had the foresight to imprint me more strongly with the flag imagary at an early age.
Marching in parades in the Military usually wasn't very reinforcing and then there was all the flag burning controversies relating to my opposition to the Viet Nam war, so I have mixed feelings about the flag, but not about my community and Country.
My own love for the US of A spreads over into Canada and Mexico.
The discussion on this thread has often carried me back into my memory bank.
I regret that no one around me had the foresight to imprint me more strongly with the flag imagary at an early age.
Marching in parades in the Military usually wasn't very reinforcing and then there was all the flag burning controversies relating to my opposition to the Viet Nam war, so I have mixed feelings about the flag, but not about my community and Country.
In a lot of ways, rla, you and I share some similar feelings here concerning the flag of the USA, and what it might stand for ......
And I can readily accept that you might have mixed feelings ....
I think that that is healthy, myself, because if you are having mixed feelings, then you have not yet succmbed to SLAVISH DEVOTION and MINDLESS PATRIOTISM ...
And I appreciate that you come in here to share your thoughts, as your thoughts go farther back in time than mine do, to an age in our history that many people today could not even conjure up in their wildest dreams ...
And while your roots were to the south of mine, in a lot of ways, our early days were similar, although yours were perhaps much more character-building than mine, since we had electricity when I was young, and you were born into a world that was still without it in a lot of places ...
AND YET, HERE YOU ARE TODAY ...
This following is from a post that I made in another thread in here on May 30, 2005 ...
Your words above here about mixed feelings for the flag brought it back to mind, so I will take the LIBERTY of posting these words again in here ....
And so ...
So what is this thing of marching in a parade, in a small town, or a big city for that matter?
Well, after all these years of doing that, marching, all I know is what it means to me, and that is that, but since today was Memorial Day, and since I did march today, and since I have been at this thought process for over thirty years now, I became moved this afternoon to record my thoughts on the subject, for whatever they are worth!
As for me, today, what I was thinking about as I marched is how nice it is to see all those people who turn out for the parade, families, or just individuals, and to feel the connection between them, and myself, that exists on some higher plane, I would say, than intellectual reasoning, and so is hard to define with words, but when experienced in the way that I experienced it today while marching on Memorial Day, it is quite tangible, and real, nonetheless.
Today, as I marched, my job was to carry the folded American Flag, which is what I really like to do, if that honor is accorded to me, as it was today, by my peers, I suppose they would be, in my marching group, which is all Viet Nam veterans like myself!
SO!
Today, I was not a person marching, rather, I was a symbol of something, and as I was marching along, carrying that folded flag, I realized the power that is associated with that symbol, which is the same American Flag that is maligned so much these days, just as it was during the Viet Nam times so long ago, now.
And what made me realize this "power" today IS that tangible connection between me carrying the flag, and those people on the side of the road who are seeing that symbol, and so, are having their thoughts of the next moment shaped by that image that they are seeing right then, which is me, an old man now, in a suit, carrying a flag, marching by, down the road, as if that flag were a precious thing, to be guarded with my very life, if needed!
All of a sudden, the FLAG becomes more than a piece of cloth folded up in the outstretched hand of a Viet Nam veteran, it becomes a living thing, BECAUSE the hand that holds that flag is itself a living thing, with a mind behind it, and the eyes of the assembled crowd that look upon that hand and flag are also living, and connected to human minds, human consciousness, and so, the very manner in which I carry myself as I carry that flag shapes the image OF WHAT OUR AMERICA REALLY CAN BE that is formed in the minds of all of these fellow Americans that are watching that folded flag in my outstretched hand, as I go marching by, AND THAT IS WHAT I LEARNED TODAY, after almost sixty years of living on this earth of OURS, which is just how connected we all can be, if only we can set our minds to trying to be so!
I am a veteran, and I am an American, and I do believe in what that flag represents, WHICH IS EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US - or none at all, and when I personally am marching with that flag IN MY HAND, that is my message to all who are there watching, WE ARE ALL ONE, and I am you!
Yes, America, that is right!
We are all one!
ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY, AND JUSTICE, FOR ALL!
That is the message that my mind is transmitting to all of the candid world, anyway, when that folded American Flag IS in my hand on Memorial Day, as I go marching by; and who can stop me from thinking that, or acting as if that were true, 24/7, as I go marching by?
And that answer is no one can, no one at all, but myself!
It can only cease to be true when I cease to think that way, and so ......
QUOTE
and then there was all the flag burning controversies relating to my opposition to the Viet Nam war, so I have mixed feelings about the
flag, but not about my community and Country.
flag, but not about my community and Country.
No mixed feelings here...It represent the nation and the people...Not the government.
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 18 2008, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Jul 19 2008, 05:22 AM)
No mixed feelings here...
It represent the nation and the people...
Not the government.
It represent the nation and the people...
Not the government.
Good morning, Frenchy ...
Thanks for commenting ....
Your views are appreciated ...
And I will take the liberty of slighty re-phrasing what you have said to "THAT FLAG IS US!"
It is what we make of it ...
Otherwise, it is nothing at all ...
If it is in fact a "sacred" symbol, it is only because it is WE who hold sacred what that flag represents ....
And so ...
QUOTE
And I will take the liberty of slighty re-phrasing what you have said to "THAT FLAG IS US!"
I agree...The nation is us!
And Frenchy, it can be a long and winding road, sometimes, in this tumultuous world ...
To come to that simple realization, as you just stated it above here ....
There is what we started out with, and then there is everything that got overlaid on top of that afterwards ....
And now ...
Well, here we are on the other side of something called LIFE ...
And it is time to do some winnowing ...
Separating out the wheat from the chaff, as it were, and going back to ROOTS ...
This picture that CO posted in here connects me very firmly with the days of my childhood here in the USA ...
THERE IS "COMMUNITY" RIGHT THERE IN THAT SIMPLE OLD-FASHIONED PICTURE ...
There is where "COMMUNITY" starts, or it simply don't start, period ...
For me, the flag represents what is in that picture, which is young life just starting out ...
One day, long ago, I was one of those children ...
If I were to toss out the flag of the United States of America today, I would be rejecting my own childhood and upbringing ....
DO I REALLY WANT TO DO THAT?
And the answer is - WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT TO?
For all we lacked in life back then in terms of the material possessions of today, those were in fact very good days, especially in the summertime, which somehow, that picture of CO's reminds me of ...
So, it's a question of values, I guess ....
IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING ...
THEN YOU WILL LIKELY FALL FOR ANYTHING ...
And so it goes, Frenchy ...
And there, I believe that I am preaching to the already converted, or to the chior ...
And so ...
To come to that simple realization, as you just stated it above here ....
There is what we started out with, and then there is everything that got overlaid on top of that afterwards ....
And now ...
Well, here we are on the other side of something called LIFE ...
And it is time to do some winnowing ...
Separating out the wheat from the chaff, as it were, and going back to ROOTS ...
This picture that CO posted in here connects me very firmly with the days of my childhood here in the USA ...
THERE IS "COMMUNITY" RIGHT THERE IN THAT SIMPLE OLD-FASHIONED PICTURE ...
There is where "COMMUNITY" starts, or it simply don't start, period ...
For me, the flag represents what is in that picture, which is young life just starting out ...
One day, long ago, I was one of those children ...
If I were to toss out the flag of the United States of America today, I would be rejecting my own childhood and upbringing ....
DO I REALLY WANT TO DO THAT?
And the answer is - WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT TO?
For all we lacked in life back then in terms of the material possessions of today, those were in fact very good days, especially in the summertime, which somehow, that picture of CO's reminds me of ...
So, it's a question of values, I guess ....
IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING ...
THEN YOU WILL LIKELY FALL FOR ANYTHING ...
And so it goes, Frenchy ...
And there, I believe that I am preaching to the already converted, or to the chior ...
And so ...
We have been through tumultuous times and quiet times, and the flag never changed
We have had governments that have worked for the people and governments that have not, and the flag never changed.
It is what we remembered, and what we see today.
It is constant and comforting.
We have had governments that have worked for the people and governments that have not, and the flag never changed.
It is what we remembered, and what we see today.
It is constant and comforting.
Thank you, Frenchy, for the morning REALITY CHECK!
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Jul 19 2008, 06:22 AM)
We have been through tumultuous times and quiet times, and the flag never changed ...
And maybe I am a touch older than you, Frenchy, BUT THE FLAG HAS CHANGED ....
When I was young, there were only 48 STARS ....
Now, today, there are 50 of them ...
The 13 STRIPES have not changed, that is true ...
The 13 STRIPES represent our common origins in the 13 ORIGINAL COLONIES that became the "united" states of America with the 1776 Declaration of Independence ...
So that part of the flag will never change, so long as our common history as a nation of people and law is not REVISED ...
But the part of the flag where the STARS are contained is separate from the other part, and is above it for a reason ...
And it is shaped like an old-fashioned "dipper", because the part where the STARS are contained is intended to have a fluid capacity ....
When I was young, Alaska and Hawaii were not yet stars in that dipper ...
They were only territories ...
To become STARS, they had to be voted in by the other stars that were already a part of the USA, IN ACCORDANCE WITH LAWFUL PROCEDURES SPELLED OUT in the USA Constitution ... ...
So in my lifetime, the flag has changed ....
LAWFULLY ....
BY DUE PROCESS ....
That is what makes us a NATION OF LAWS versus a nation of men ...
If we were a nation of men, Hawaii and Alaska could maybe have forced their way in, or maybe bought their way in ...
But it didn't happen that way ...
In a NATION OF LAWS, they were voted in, because they too pledged to maintain OUR pre-existing values ....
And as an older person here in America, I believe that anyone running for public office here in the USA should know this common history as well as I do ....
Because if you don't even know who we are, how can you then govern us?
And so ...
Very true, but I wasn't referring to it's physicality...but you knew that.
Same here...
QUOTE
When I was young, there were only 48 STARS ....
Same here...
QUOTE(Snuffysmith @ Jul 17 2008, 12:57 PM)
I'm still a Liberal Liv, only I'm a fiscal conservative. Too much training from my OMB days.
I sense some amount of exaggeration and rationalization in Chuck Norris's analysis. I think he has failed to integrate the concept of, "Community," as Livyjr uses the term in his discussion. In the
absence of Community, there can be no democratic nation. Just as there could not be light, without
darkness, nor breathing in without breathing out, a political concept of Liberal is meaningless without
an equivalent political concept of conservative. Whenever these concepts are used to imply good
or bad, the speaker is misusing the Language. I don't know whether I made this up or read it it
somewhere and forgot where but I define a Liberal political philosophy as: Liberated from traditional
sources of authority and committed to the common good. Traditional sourcess of authority include
the royality of Kings and Queens, Emperors and Military Dictators, Religous Scripture and cultural traditions. The common good means what is good for (promotes the self-maintainance and growth of) the Family, the Community, the Nation and the Human Social System. Liberated from tradition
sources of authority does not suggest a rejection or absence of Authority. Persons author their
own and their collective meanings for Life--drawing from all available sources, including the arts
and sciences and their own experiences, including spiritual or religous experiences. In the US, this authoring was done through the process of drawing up a covenant with each other in the form of
a social contract called a Constitution. Now the question of where do our rights come from or
does the US Constitution give us our rights, I would say, not directly. Our Rights come out of our
History. The Constitution guarantees our rights, as stated therein and provides the mechanisms
of government for carrying them out and the Federal Government the authority and force (where
necessary) to carry them out. As Livyjr says, "Our Liberty is contextual and requires the integration
of both Freedom and Equality, which translates to equal freedom. Life is indeed, dynamic and change is essential. This brings up the importance of the Conservative forces in the social system.
While change is essential, it must be orderly. While some are promoting needed changes, others
are promoting the conservation of an orderly social system and a government of Laws--not personality and popularity. (I'm going to pause here for some feedback from the readers.)
What a great FACILITATOR you are of rational coherent thought, rla ...
It is a VALUABLE TALENT in here ....
GOD provides, rla, in my simple system of being ....
And here you are, providing us focus ...
And so ...
I always tell people, rla, that one of my greatest childhood examples had to be the childhood of American President Abe Lincoln, who in some ways grew up a lot like you ....
I tell people, if Abe Lincoln could learn what he learned laying on the floor of a log cabin and reading by firelight ....
The BY GOD, WHAT EXCUSE would I have to remain stupid in a day and age of electric lights?
And so ....
It is a VALUABLE TALENT in here ....
GOD provides, rla, in my simple system of being ....
And here you are, providing us focus ...
And so ...
I always tell people, rla, that one of my greatest childhood examples had to be the childhood of American President Abe Lincoln, who in some ways grew up a lot like you ....
I tell people, if Abe Lincoln could learn what he learned laying on the floor of a log cabin and reading by firelight ....
The BY GOD, WHAT EXCUSE would I have to remain stupid in a day and age of electric lights?
And so ....
QUOTE(Frenchy @ Jul 19 2008, 06:50 AM)
Very true, but I wasn't referring to it's physicality...but you knew that.
Well, I do now, and for the sake of the readers of this thread, I appreciate you spelling that out, Frenchy ...
It is an important point to be made ....
The map is NOT the territory ...
The Flag is NOT America ....
It is what joins us as one people ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2008, 07:51 AM)
While change is essential, it must be orderly.
While some are promoting needed changes, others are promoting the conservation of an orderly social system and a government of Laws--not personality and popularity.
(I'm going to pause here for some feedback from the readers.)
While some are promoting needed changes, others are promoting the conservation of an orderly social system and a government of Laws--not personality and popularity.
(I'm going to pause here for some feedback from the readers.)
QUOTE(ConcernedObserver @ Jul 18 2008, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 05:01 AM)
Section 4 of Article IV of the United States Constitution is even more explicit in that regard, to wit:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 4 2008, 03:26 PM)
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
TO THE REPUBLIC ...
Not to the president ....
Not to George W. Bush, OR ELSE ....
Not to the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, because we American people who are not in the military do not have a COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF over us, despite anything to the contrary that Marine might have to say about that in here ....
TO THE REPUBLIC ....
REPUBLIC: a commonwealth; that form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to ALL the citizens ...
Black's Law Dictionary
REPUBLIC: a state in which the sovereignty resides IN THE PEOPLE and the legislative and administrative powers are lodged in officers elected by and representing THE PEOPLE ....
Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary
RULE OF LAW ....
When I talk about being a PATRIOT here in America, that is what I am DEVOTED to - RULE OF LAW ....
ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL ....
When I put on the uniform of a soldier in the United States Army in 1968, that is what I went "ON THE LINE" to protect and defend ...
LIBERTY AND JUSTICE ...
There is AMERICAN PATRIOTISM to me, plain and simple ....
Not FREEDOM for some, and **** everybody else, as it is getting to be now, especially under George W. "DECIDER" Bush, Dick Cheney and the inaptly named "REPUBLICAN" party of America and the world ...
DEVOTION TO ONE'S COUNTRY ....
So which side are YOU on?
There are only two ....
FREEDOM for some?
Or LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL?
And so ...
TO THE REPUBLIC ...
Not to the president ....
Not to George W. Bush, OR ELSE ....
Not to the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, because we American people who are not in the military do not have a COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF over us, despite anything to the contrary that Marine might have to say about that in here ....
TO THE REPUBLIC ....
REPUBLIC: a commonwealth; that form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to ALL the citizens ...
Black's Law Dictionary
REPUBLIC: a state in which the sovereignty resides IN THE PEOPLE and the legislative and administrative powers are lodged in officers elected by and representing THE PEOPLE ....
Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary
RULE OF LAW ....
When I talk about being a PATRIOT here in America, that is what I am DEVOTED to - RULE OF LAW ....
ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL ....
When I put on the uniform of a soldier in the United States Army in 1968, that is what I went "ON THE LINE" to protect and defend ...
LIBERTY AND JUSTICE ...
There is AMERICAN PATRIOTISM to me, plain and simple ....
Not FREEDOM for some, and **** everybody else, as it is getting to be now, especially under George W. "DECIDER" Bush, Dick Cheney and the inaptly named "REPUBLICAN" party of America and the world ...
DEVOTION TO ONE'S COUNTRY ....
So which side are YOU on?
There are only two ....
FREEDOM for some?
Or LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL?
And so ...
CHANGE IS CHANGE, rla ....
CHANGE IS INEXORABLE!
You cannot stop change ...
You can expend huge amounts of ENERGY attempting to "make change", and it is your expenditure of energy which in fact causes CHANGE ....
And that expenditure of ENERGY causes the ENTROPY of the universe to increase ...
Which is a concept that boggles people's minds, as a rule ....
Nobody knows what ENTROPY is ....
So they disregard it ....
But ENTROPY cannot be simply DISREGARDED, try as you might ...
(Institutional BLINDNESS) ...
ENTROPY is DISORDER ...
DISORDER is a CONCOMITANT of the expenditure of energy ...
The GREATER the expenditure, the more the disorder is increased ....
And here we now are ....
And I've got to run, so I am going to pause here with this thought stated ...
And so ...
Do We Still Need the Bill of Rights?
by Jacob G. Hornberger
<li> How Can You Love a Country?
by Sheldon Richman
by Jacob G. Hornberger
<li> How Can You Love a Country?
by Sheldon Richman
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 19 2008, 12:28 PM)
CHANGE IS CHANGE, rla ....
CHANGE IS INEXORABLE!
You cannot stop change ...
You can expend huge amounts of ENERGY attempting to "make change", and it is your expenditure of energy which in fact causes CHANGE ....
And that expenditure of ENERGY causes the ENTROPY of the universe to increase ...
Which is a concept that boggles people's minds, as a rule ....
Nobody knows what ENTROPY is ....
So they disregard it ....
But ENTROPY cannot be simply DISREGARDED, try as you might ...
(Institutional BLINDNESS) ...
ENTROPY is DISORDER ...
DISORDER is a CONCOMITANT of the expenditure of energy ...
The GREATER the expenditure, the more the disorder is increased ....
And here we now are ....
And I've got to run, so I am going to pause here with this thought stated ...
And so ...
CHANGE IS INEXORABLE!
You cannot stop change ...
You can expend huge amounts of ENERGY attempting to "make change", and it is your expenditure of energy which in fact causes CHANGE ....
And that expenditure of ENERGY causes the ENTROPY of the universe to increase ...
Which is a concept that boggles people's minds, as a rule ....
Nobody knows what ENTROPY is ....
So they disregard it ....
But ENTROPY cannot be simply DISREGARDED, try as you might ...
(Institutional BLINDNESS) ...
ENTROPY is DISORDER ...
DISORDER is a CONCOMITANT of the expenditure of energy ...
The GREATER the expenditure, the more the disorder is increased ....
And here we now are ....
And I've got to run, so I am going to pause here with this thought stated ...
And so ...
This is interesting. However, I get left behind pretty quickly, getting into the hard sciences. I
have become increasingly interested the last couple of years in the concept of,"Emergent Evolution."
Entropy is definitely a related concept. In a sense, entropy might be considered the obverse of
emergent evolution. I am particularly interested in the emergent evolution of culture. The notion
of the clash of cultures, often used as a back drop for explaining the, "Us" vs., "Them" nature of conflict in the 21st century is informative, though an ovr generalization. There are always more
than two dominant cultures vying for dominance. One promising approach, I think is to focus on
the contrast in Closed Systems and Open Systems. For example, the big mistake the US made
in response to 9/11 is that the US, a notably Open System was threatened by the relatively closed
system of radical Islam, so we imediately started becoming a closed system. We continue to become more and more like them. Open systems are much more adaptive and eventually trasform
and integrate closed systems.
Double think federal government.
Maybe psycho-socio review is appropriate.
It's the Obama approach...y'all double thnk it.
Meanwhile soldiers serve, without the ability to
analyse minority approaches. Sue me...or blow me.
I could give a royal shizen for the corporate think stream.
Maybe psycho-socio review is appropriate.
It's the Obama approach...y'all double thnk it.
Meanwhile soldiers serve, without the ability to
analyse minority approaches. Sue me...or blow me.
I could give a royal shizen for the corporate think stream.
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jul 19 2008, 07:58 PM)
Double think federal government.
Maybe psycho-socio review is appropriate.
It's the Obama approach...y'all double thnk it.
Meanwhile soldiers serve, without the ability to
analyse minority approaches. Sue me...or blow me.
I could give a royal shizen for the corporate think stream.
Maybe psycho-socio review is appropriate.
It's the Obama approach...y'all double thnk it.
Meanwhile soldiers serve, without the ability to
analyse minority approaches. Sue me...or blow me.
I could give a royal shizen for the corporate think stream.
IH, tell us what you think. I (and I think a lot of others) would like to hear more from you in
a less adversarial manner. You obviously have a lot of experiences that we could all learn from.
We are all, equally, members of the human race--regardless of our cultural differences.
QUOTE(Indianhead @ Jul 19 2008, 06:58 PM)
I could give a royal shizen for the corporate think stream.
I don't know what is up with all of your hostility, IH ...
But I'm not overly fond of it, myself ...
You come in here and then you just start shooting your shotgun all over the place, peppering everything in sight with your pellets ...
This isn't a thread about Barack Obama ....
It is about PATRIOTISM ...
And excessive patriotism, or JINGOISM ...
So .....
This thread is not about some CORPORATE THINK STREAM, and I don't know how you came to that conclusion ...
If somehow, however, this CORPORATE THINK STREAM in some way affects how people view PATRIOTISM in America, then I would say that it is fair game for discussion in here ....
Soooo ...
You don't like it ...
That implies that you have a priori knowledge of it ...
And based on that knowledge, you do not care for this CORPORATE THINK STREAM ...
Isn't that a reflection of healthy citizenship?
Or is it something else?
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2008, 07:33 PM)
We are all, equally, members of the human race--regardless of our cultural differences.
Such a simple concept, rla ....
I wonder why it is so hard for people to see ...
OH!
Right ....
In America, we have to hate people on command ...
And we have never been given a corresponding order or directive or command to like other people ....
And so ...
Remind you of anyone Liv ?
I thought you might like this one too..
I'd have to say that that one little boy looked a lot like me ....
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2008, 06:31 PM)
This is interesting.
However, I get left behind pretty quickly, getting into the hard sciences.
I have become increasingly interested the last couple of years in the concept of,"Emergent Evolution."
Entropy is definitely a related concept.
In a sense, entropy might be considered the obverse of emergent evolution.
However, I get left behind pretty quickly, getting into the hard sciences.
I have become increasingly interested the last couple of years in the concept of,"Emergent Evolution."
Entropy is definitely a related concept.
In a sense, entropy might be considered the obverse of emergent evolution.
No, rla ....
I don't think so ...
At least, it is not at all intuitively obvious to me ....
And ENTROPY is a philosophical concept in here, rla ....
We are not talking hard science in here ...
This is a discussion that goes back in time to the early-1900's, and it involves such luminaries as Einstein and Wolfgang Pauli and Werner Heisenberg in Europe ....
This line of developing thought greatly influenced Karl Gustav Jung ...
This line of developing thought came out of the Newtonian CLOCK-WORK MODEL that had governed western thought for many preceding years ...
The NEWTONIAN CLOCKWORK MODEL did not have ENTROPY in it ...
Or if it did, ENTROPY did not play a noticeable role ...
A question that came up back then, which is philosophical, had to do with HOW ENTROPY would or could impact back on human beings ...
ENTROPY was not well understood back then, precisely because it was an emergent philosophical concept, and I don't think that it is well understood today ...
But effectively, ENTROPY is an increase in DISORDER ...
The DISORDER of our society here in the USA has been greatly increased since WWII ended ...
The DISORDER of our society has accelerated greatly in just these last eight years ...
People in politics like to believe that ENTROPY can somehow be overcome with money ...
Or that it can be ignored ...
And so we are now here ...
There is an excess of energy now in the universe ...
That excess energy is causing CHAOS ...
ENTROPY and CHAOS can be considered to be analogous ...
And so it is ...
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 20 2008, 02:28 PM)
No, rla ....
I don't think so ...
At least, it is not at all intuitively obvious to me ....
And ENTROPY is a philosophical concept in here, rla ....
We are not talking hard science in here ...
This is a discussion that goes back in time to the early-1900's, and it involves such luminaries as Einstein and Wolfgang Pauli and Werner Heisenberg in Europe ....
This line of developing thought greatly influenced Karl Gustav Jung ...
This line of developing thought came out of the Newtonian CLOCK-WORK MODEL that had governed western thought for many preceding years ...
The NEWTONIAN CLOCKWORK MODEL did not have ENTROPY in it ...
Or if it did, ENTROPY did not play a noticeable role ...
A question that came up back then, which is philosophical, had to do with HOW ENTROPY would or could impact back on human beings ...
ENTROPY was not well understood back then, precisely because it was an emergent philosophical concept, and I don't think that it is well understood today ...
But effectively, ENTROPY is an increase in DISORDER ...
The DISORDER of our society here in the USA has been greatly increased since WWII ended ...
The DISORDER of our society has accelerated greatly in just these last eight years ...
People in politics like to believe that ENTROPY can somehow be overcome with money ...
Or that it can be ignored ...
And so we are now here ...
There is an excess of energy now in the universe ...
That excess energy is causing CHAOS ...
ENTROPY and CHAOS can be considered to be analogous ...
And so it is ...
And so ...
I don't think so ...
At least, it is not at all intuitively obvious to me ....
And ENTROPY is a philosophical concept in here, rla ....
We are not talking hard science in here ...
This is a discussion that goes back in time to the early-1900's, and it involves such luminaries as Einstein and Wolfgang Pauli and Werner Heisenberg in Europe ....
This line of developing thought greatly influenced Karl Gustav Jung ...
This line of developing thought came out of the Newtonian CLOCK-WORK MODEL that had governed western thought for many preceding years ...
The NEWTONIAN CLOCKWORK MODEL did not have ENTROPY in it ...
Or if it did, ENTROPY did not play a noticeable role ...
A question that came up back then, which is philosophical, had to do with HOW ENTROPY would or could impact back on human beings ...
ENTROPY was not well understood back then, precisely because it was an emergent philosophical concept, and I don't think that it is well understood today ...
But effectively, ENTROPY is an increase in DISORDER ...
The DISORDER of our society here in the USA has been greatly increased since WWII ended ...
The DISORDER of our society has accelerated greatly in just these last eight years ...
People in politics like to believe that ENTROPY can somehow be overcome with money ...
Or that it can be ignored ...
And so we are now here ...
There is an excess of energy now in the universe ...
That excess energy is causing CHAOS ...
ENTROPY and CHAOS can be considered to be analogous ...
And so it is ...
And so ...
I think I understand what you are saying here and I don't have any disagreement thus far. I think
Entropy and Emergent Evolution are both basic process of nature--independent of Man but I don't think Man is independent of them. I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--
which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe. Both, as a Universe and as
individual human social systems, we are expanding faster than we can organize and re-organize. I
also think that the distinction between open and closed systems is important to this exploration.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 01:57 PM)
I think Entropy and Emergent Evolution are both basic process of nature--independent of Man but I don't think Man is independent of them.
I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe.
Both, as a Universe and as individual human social systems, we are expanding faster than we can organize and re-organize.
I also think that the distinction between open and closed systems is important to this exploration.
I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe.
Both, as a Universe and as individual human social systems, we are expanding faster than we can organize and re-organize.
I also think that the distinction between open and closed systems is important to this exploration.
ENTROPY definitely is a part of nature, rla ...
THAT IS THE POINT!
And since mankind is a part of nature ...
Mankind cannot ever be independent of the effects of ENTROPY on the natural environment ...
JOULE HEAT is but one example of it ...
JOULE HEAT is the power lost in the simple act of transmitting electrical current through a wire ...
JOULE HEAT is called I squared R losses ....
It is an exponential ...
To have what is considered a MODERN SOCIETY today, we need a lot of electrical current to be pumped though a lot of large transmission lines ...
So today, the JOULE HEAT being put into the "environment" is much greater that it was when you were young ....
That excess heat energy has an impact on our standard of living, and ability to continue living as human beings on this earth of ours ....
And that is but one vivid example of ENTROPY increasing ...
We are told by our political masters here in America that we cannot go backwards ....
We have to keep the highly ENTROPIC AMERICAN DREAM alive ....
So we are going to continue to commit more and more chaos or disorder to the "system", which is a closed system ...
Out of that stimulus, I would say, emergent leadership is going to arise ....
It would have to, when you think on it, since evolution is always on-going ....
The question for us is whether this emergent leadership can be at all nurtured or guided ....
Or like CAUDILLO-ISM, will it simply happen?
It is like a lava lamp .....
One is rising ...
One is always sinking in its turn ....
There is your working model, rla ...
The lava lamp .....
As something is sinking bneneath the waves ....
And this applies to civilizations ....
Something new will be emerging to replace it ....
And so ....
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 8 2008, 05:01 AM)
Section 4 of Article IV of the United States Constitution is even more explicit in that regard, to wit:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 01:57 PM)
I also think that the distinction between open and closed systems is important to this exploration.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 19 2008, 06:31 PM)
One promising approach, I think is to focus on the contrast in Closed Systems and Open Systems.
For example, the big mistake the US made in response to 9/11 is that the US, a notably Open System was threatened by the relatively closed system of radical Islam, so we imediately started becoming a closed system.
We continue to become more and more like them.
Open systems are much more adaptive and eventually trasform and integrate closed systems.
For example, the big mistake the US made in response to 9/11 is that the US, a notably Open System was threatened by the relatively closed system of radical Islam, so we imediately started becoming a closed system.
We continue to become more and more like them.
Open systems are much more adaptive and eventually trasform and integrate closed systems.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 7 2008, 01:17 PM)
After the Declaration of Independence was signed, the first constitution of the 13 original "united states" was Massachusetts ....
The first sentence of its Preamble is as follows:
The end of the institution, maintenance, and administration of government, is to secure the existence of the body politic, to protect it, and to furnish the individuals who compose it with the power of enjoying in safety and tranquillity their natural rights, and the blessings of life: and whenever these great objects are not obtained, the people have a right to alter the government, and to take measures necessary for their safety, prosperity and happiness.
There is NATURAL LAW embodied right in the very first sentence ...
Article I stated as follows with respect to NATURAL LAW:
All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.
The first sentence of its Preamble is as follows:
The end of the institution, maintenance, and administration of government, is to secure the existence of the body politic, to protect it, and to furnish the individuals who compose it with the power of enjoying in safety and tranquillity their natural rights, and the blessings of life: and whenever these great objects are not obtained, the people have a right to alter the government, and to take measures necessary for their safety, prosperity and happiness.
There is NATURAL LAW embodied right in the very first sentence ...
Article I stated as follows with respect to NATURAL LAW:
All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.
I have no real idea how you see open and closed systems being at all relevant to this discussion, rla ....
And to press home what I feel is an essential point to be made in here, I personally have never been and am not now "threatened" by something called "radical Islam" ....
Something called radical Islam can do me abosolutely no harm whatsoever, since it is but two words ....
I suppose somebody motivated by what is called radical Islam could be brainwashed into wanting to do me harm, for God alone knows what reason ....
But now, we are back to dealing with individuals, not populations ...
Islam has existed now as a concept since the 700's ....
Well over a thousand years ....
Islam has had associated with it the arts and science and literature and music and government and medicine ....
So, Islam has in its turn been associated with what I would call "civilizing " influences or factors ....
Something that is a civilizing factor is not a threat to me ....
So you do need to further develop your thoughts on what you consider a closed society to actually be ...
And I, in my turn, think that the essential part of this discussion, notwithstanding what some alleged followers of Islam might be doing somewhere in the world, is one of WHY we bother to have government here in the USA ....
Is our premise for having government here in the USA still valid?
If our premise is still valid, then a second question might be, why don't the people who are considered followers of radical Islam adopt as their premise our bedrock or core premises for having REPUBLICAN governement here in the USA ...
And so ....
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 01:57 PM)
I think Entropy and Emergent Evolution are both basic process of nature--independent of Man but I don't think Man is independent of them.
I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe.
I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe.
Yesterday, rla, I went to the bookstore and one of the books that I got was The Conquest of Gaul by Julius Caesar ...
Julius Caesar personified and epitomized emergent leadership in Rome over 2,000 years ago ...
Caesar set Rome on fire in a civil war, and he himself was murdered ....
In The Conquest of Gaul, Caesar himself talks about emergent leadership in Gaul ....
Vercingetorix could be said to be an example of that ...
Caesar crushed emerging leadership in Gaul ....
Another book that I got yesterday is about the barbarians who finally destroyed Rome ....
Another vivid case of emerging leadership ....
I don't know that you can ever say that emerging leadership is positive, although it could be ....
And you cannot say that emerging leadership is not entropic .....
Caesar caused the entropy of Rome to increase ....
The emergent leadership of the Gauls in the time of Caesar did not reduce chaos or entropy for the Gauls by moving towards progressively higher levels of Organization ....
With Vercingetorix, you can say that the attempt to move towards higher levels of organization for the Gauls actually resulted in greater entropy and chaos for them ...
And the emergent leadership of the barbarians who destroyed Rome did not move toward progressively higher levels of Organization for the Romans, and thus, did not reduce chaos or entropy for Rome ....
Their higher level of organization for themselves caused great chaos for Rome ....
And its extinguishment as a world power ...
So you cannot always say that emegent leadership is a positive factor in civilization ....
It might in fact rip civilization asunder ....
And usher in an age of ignorance ....
A dark ages, as it were ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 20 2008, 03:57 PM)
I have no real idea how you see open and closed systems being at all relevant to this discussion, rla ....
And to press home what I feel is an essential point to be made in here, I personally have never been and am not now "threatened" by something called "radical Islam" ....
Something called radical Islam can do me abosolutely no harm whatsoever, since it is but two words ....
I suppose somebody motivated by what is called radical Islam could be brainwashed into wanting to do me harm, for God alone knows what reason ....
But now, we are back to dealing with individuals, not populations ...
Islam has existed now as a concept since the 700's ....
Well over a thousand years ....
Islam has had associated with it the arts and science and literature and music and government and medicine ....
So, Islam has in its turn been associated with what I would call "civilizing " influences or factors ....
Something that is a civilizing factor is not a threat to me ....
So you do need to further develop your thoughts on what you consider a closed society to actually be ...
And I, in my turn, think that the essential part of this discussion, notwithstanding what some alleged followers of Islam might be doing somewhere in the world, is one of WHY we bother to have government here in the USA ....
Is our premise for having government here in the USA still valid?
If our premise is still valid, then a second question might be, why don't the people who are considered followers of radical Islam adopt as their premise our bedrock or core premises for having REPUBLICAN governement here in the USA ...
And so ....
And to press home what I feel is an essential point to be made in here, I personally have never been and am not now "threatened" by something called "radical Islam" ....
Something called radical Islam can do me abosolutely no harm whatsoever, since it is but two words ....
I suppose somebody motivated by what is called radical Islam could be brainwashed into wanting to do me harm, for God alone knows what reason ....
But now, we are back to dealing with individuals, not populations ...
Islam has existed now as a concept since the 700's ....
Well over a thousand years ....
Islam has had associated with it the arts and science and literature and music and government and medicine ....
So, Islam has in its turn been associated with what I would call "civilizing " influences or factors ....
Something that is a civilizing factor is not a threat to me ....
So you do need to further develop your thoughts on what you consider a closed society to actually be ...
And I, in my turn, think that the essential part of this discussion, notwithstanding what some alleged followers of Islam might be doing somewhere in the world, is one of WHY we bother to have government here in the USA ....
Is our premise for having government here in the USA still valid?
If our premise is still valid, then a second question might be, why don't the people who are considered followers of radical Islam adopt as their premise our bedrock or core premises for having REPUBLICAN governement here in the USA ...
And so ....
Again, I don't think we are disagreeing with each other but rather mostly talking past each other.
I don't want to take the discussion too far off topic. Since it is your Thread, I look to your guidance
on that point. I mis-used the term, "Radical Islam" as a short hand way of refering to those cultures
that the Judio-Christian cultures (especially the US) is most in conflict with. Let us shift to a different example from the energy loss from the electrical wire. Suppose that Congress passed a law that in order for a State to receive Federal Funds to help them with their responsibility for educating children, every student must become proficient in at least one Language in addition to English. This
would introduce additional conflict in just about every community in the country. Additional chaos
in a system that is already dying from entropy. Although speaking more than one language is, I
think, a highly desirable goal, this would not be an adaptive way for our social system to promote the goal, because it would not move community-based Education to a higher level of organization
but would do just the opposite. It would increase the entropy in the system. I'll need to do a little home work to get my thoughts better organized about open and closed systems.
At a time when there was little understanding among the body politic of the concept of the, "Economy," the Bill Clinton campaign made a lot of hay with the slogan, "its the Economy,
Stupid." More people actually became aware that there is a something out there called Economy
that is affecting all of us. If Gore had taken the next step and popularized the slogan, "Its the Culture, Stupid," he might have won and the two wars we are in now, might have been avoided.
When USAians realize that we too have a culture, we won't be so critical and aggressive towards other cultures. Then it won't be as easy for our money and power hungry Leaders to manipulate us
with so called wedge issues.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 04:01 PM)
Again, I don't think we are disagreeing with each other but rather mostly talking past each other.
I don't want to take the discussion too far off topic.
Since it is your Thread, I look to your guidance on that point.
I don't want to take the discussion too far off topic.
Since it is your Thread, I look to your guidance on that point.
And since you are using what might be esoteric terms, I can't give any guidance until you say more, rla ....
In which case, you might take the discussion further away from the topic ....
But then, we at least will have a more concrete basis for saying WHY and HOW that was, so we can then get back on-topic ....
I certainly do not want to be so rigid in here in defining the "TOPIC" so that there cannot possibly be any further discussion ...
That totally squelches spontaneity in here ...
Then this will be just another DOGMATIC thread ....
And that is antithetical to the concept of LIBERTY which underlies this discussion ...
And so ....
Have to just take a chance, rla ....
Say what you think needs to be said ....
And I'll try to follow the logic ....
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 04:01 PM)
Suppose that Congress passed a law that in order for a State to receive Federal Funds to help them with their responsibility for educating children, every student must become proficient in at least one Language in addition to English.
This would introduce additional conflict in just about every community in the country.
This would introduce additional conflict in just about every community in the country.
rla ....
When I went to HS, I had to become proficient in another language other than English ....
That was back in the 1960's ....
The reason given for that was that we were in fact a part of a global community, and we had an obligation to understand how that global community communicated in their own languages, since we could not expect everybody in the world to kowtow to us and have to learn our language, while we got to just sit around on our dead @$$e$ learning nothing ...
Being "forced" to have to become proficient in a 2d language did not cause any conflict in my community that I could discern then or now ...
And I think that it is a good thing today to be able to speak and think in another language other than English ....
So where do you see the conflict, rla?
And so ....
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 04:01 PM)
When USAians realize that we too have a culture, we won't be so critical and aggressive towards other cultures.
Then it won't be as easy for our money and power hungry Leaders to manipulate us with so called wedge issues.
Then it won't be as easy for our money and power hungry Leaders to manipulate us with so called wedge issues.
I do have a culture, rla ...
It is what I started talking about in the very first posts in this thread ....
What I'm curious about is HOW there could be people in the USA who do not have a culture .....
And so ...
And what is decidedly ENTROPIC in our American culture is the concept of having to have a continually growing economy that is based on material possessions as a sign of "wealth" ....
ENTROPY does not increase linearly ....
So the harder you try to have a continually expanding economy, the faster DISORDER will increase as a direct result ....
That is an inescapable concomitant ...
So long as the "culture" of the USA is based on acquisition and greed, that culture will continue to be CONTRA-SURVIVAL ...
The more people that that "culture" tries to accomodate, the greater will be the associated disorder, until that culture collapses ....
I was not taught to be greedy when I was young ....
Nor am I an acquisitor ....
So I have nothing to gain by trying to sustain that particular culture ....
So I am not invested in trying to prevent its collapse here in the USA ...
When more people see it as I do, that culture will in fact collapse, and something else will then emerge ....
If the majority of the people, however, keep going faster and faster and faster in pursuit of material gain, then likely, I will die in a time of great chaos and disorder ....
And maybe what keeps me hanging around, rla, is a curiosity about which one it will be ....
And so ....
ENTROPY does not increase linearly ....
So the harder you try to have a continually expanding economy, the faster DISORDER will increase as a direct result ....
That is an inescapable concomitant ...
So long as the "culture" of the USA is based on acquisition and greed, that culture will continue to be CONTRA-SURVIVAL ...
The more people that that "culture" tries to accomodate, the greater will be the associated disorder, until that culture collapses ....
I was not taught to be greedy when I was young ....
Nor am I an acquisitor ....
So I have nothing to gain by trying to sustain that particular culture ....
So I am not invested in trying to prevent its collapse here in the USA ...
When more people see it as I do, that culture will in fact collapse, and something else will then emerge ....
If the majority of the people, however, keep going faster and faster and faster in pursuit of material gain, then likely, I will die in a time of great chaos and disorder ....
And maybe what keeps me hanging around, rla, is a curiosity about which one it will be ....
And so ....
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 02:57 PM)
I think I understand what you are saying here and I don't have any disagreement thus far. I think
Entropy and Emergent Evolution are both basic process of nature--independent of Man but I don't think Man is independent of them. I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--
which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe. Both, as a Universe and as
individual human social systems, we are expanding faster than we can organize and re-organize. I
also think that the distinction between open and closed systems is important to this exploration.
Entropy and Emergent Evolution are both basic process of nature--independent of Man but I don't think Man is independent of them. I come to the tentative conclusion that one may be the obverse of the other in that emergent evolution moves toward progressively higher levels of Organization--
which reduces chaos or entropy--in a constantly expanding Universe. Both, as a Universe and as
individual human social systems, we are expanding faster than we can organize and re-organize. I
also think that the distinction between open and closed systems is important to this exploration.
I think comparing the concept, "Emergent Evolution" in its broadest sense (how the Universe works)
and the concept, "Entropy," in its broadest application may be usefull. It is, however, a big junp
from emergent evolution to the concept of, "Emergent Leadership," which has been defined differently by different investigators. I've been exploring the possible relationship between emergent evolution and emergent leadership. The concepts are on quite different planes but I
think I see some similarity. The question of whether emergent evolution is leading to positive or negative outcomes ( as judged by a human being in a particular country and culture, at a particular time, is, I think, unknowable given our present technology. Emergent Leadership has been and is
being studied by various disciplines in various context and more is being learned about how it
has been used and misused.
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 04:01 PM)
Again, I don't think we are disagreeing with each other but rather mostly talking past each other.
I don't want to take the discussion too far off topic.
Since it is your Thread, I look to your guidance on that point.
I don't want to take the discussion too far off topic.
Since it is your Thread, I look to your guidance on that point.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 4 2008, 05:49 AM)
Back then, the 4th of July was still called INDEPENDENCE DAY, and while it was a celebration, IT WAS A CELEBRATION OF SOMETHING VITAL TO OUR SHARED CITIZENSHIP AS AMERICANS ....
It was not merely a day to go out and get hammered drunk as it is today ....
And PATRIOTISM back then in my small-town community was a quiet thing ....
Not this CHEST-THUMPING MANLY MAN thing that it seems to have become today ....
So I am going to muse a bit on it in here today, those days of my own youth here in America, for whatever it might be worth ...
And I say that because yesterday, in the news, they had John McCain and Barack Obama telling all of us what they thought PATRIOTISM in America was supposed to mean to all of us ...
And to my mind, neither quite came close to what I was taught about PATRIOTISM by people who I thought then and now were AMERICAN PATRIOTS ....
And so ...
It was not merely a day to go out and get hammered drunk as it is today ....
And PATRIOTISM back then in my small-town community was a quiet thing ....
Not this CHEST-THUMPING MANLY MAN thing that it seems to have become today ....
So I am going to muse a bit on it in here today, those days of my own youth here in America, for whatever it might be worth ...
And I say that because yesterday, in the news, they had John McCain and Barack Obama telling all of us what they thought PATRIOTISM in America was supposed to mean to all of us ...
And to my mind, neither quite came close to what I was taught about PATRIOTISM by people who I thought then and now were AMERICAN PATRIOTS ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 4 2008, 06:23 AM)
These words are also today to be found under the heading of LIBERTY in Black's Law Dictionary, which is the "official" guide to the meaning of words in courts of law here in America today, and so, that is and remains my desk reference when I am talking about such concepts in America as LIBERTY ..
Yesterday, I don't recall hearing anything about any of this from either Obama or McCain, and I thought that curious and interesting, which is why I am taking some time in here today to put forth my own small-town thoughts on the subject ....
It has become very obvious to me over these last 50+ years since I was in kindergarten that in America, we all do not seem to be taught the same things as children ....
And sometimes, especially in here, I am left wondering if maybe I was brought up on the moon, or something, or maybe, as Marine is always telling me, I am just a relic of a long, by-gone age, and perhaps someone with the experience of the world and its people that Marine has, he may be right ....
And so ...
Yesterday, I don't recall hearing anything about any of this from either Obama or McCain, and I thought that curious and interesting, which is why I am taking some time in here today to put forth my own small-town thoughts on the subject ....
It has become very obvious to me over these last 50+ years since I was in kindergarten that in America, we all do not seem to be taught the same things as children ....
And sometimes, especially in here, I am left wondering if maybe I was brought up on the moon, or something, or maybe, as Marine is always telling me, I am just a relic of a long, by-gone age, and perhaps someone with the experience of the world and its people that Marine has, he may be right ....
And so ...
rla ....
The topic of this thread is pretty much captured right in this one sentence just below here from one of my first posts, to wit:
And sometimes, especially in here, I am left wondering if maybe I was brought up on the moon, or something, or maybe, as Marine is always telling me, I am just a relic of a long, by-gone age, and perhaps someone with the experience of the world and its people that Marine has, he may be right ....
The basis for that statement is largely contained in these two excerpts above here from two of my original posts ....
And I do condition it by stating "I am taking some time in here today to put forth my own small-town thoughts on the subject" ....
SMALL-TOWN THOUGHTS ...
Perhaps they are now way out of date ...
I could be nothing more than a dinosaur ...
In my opinion, rla, there in fact has been considerable EVOLUTION of THOUGHT here in the USA since my first day of kindergarten back after the end of WWII ...
I suppose that could make the topic of this thread the existential question of: DOES ANYTHING IN AMERICA MEAN ANYTHING ANYMORE?
Or is it now all just a bunch of mush?
And so ...
QUOTE(rla @ Jul 20 2008, 05:23 PM)
It is, however, a big junp from emergent evolution to the concept of, "Emergent Leadership," which has been defined differently by different investigators.
rla, EVOLUTION is evolution ...
It can go in many ways ....
Retrogression is as much evolution as is becoming more organized ...
So incipient or actual retrogression can in fact be emergent evolution ...
And in ecology, highly organized species are not guaranteed survival, at all ...
They may in fact be the first to fall, since their high level of organization makes them incapable of rapid evolution ....
A high level of organization can be equated with STASIS, which is antithetical to survival ...
And rla ....
We lay persons in here have absolutely no clue whatsoever as to who these "different investigators" of yours might be, or more importantly, in what specific field of study these investigations might be happening in ....
Political science?
Sociology?
Psychology?
Metaphysics?
Religion?
It makes a difference, rla ....
In my estimastion, anyway ....
Especially if it is political science ....
And so ...
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 20 2008, 05:22 PM)
rla ....
When I went to HS, I had to become proficient in another language other than English ....
That was back in the 1960's ....
The reason given for that was that we were in fact a part of a global community, and we had an obligation to understand how that global community communicated in their own languages, since we could not expect everybody in the world to kowtow to us and have to learn our language, while we got to just sit around on our dead @$$e$ learning nothing ...
Being "forced" to have to become proficient in a 2d language did not cause any conflict in my community that I could discern then or now ...
And I think that it is a good thing today to be able to speak and think in another language other than English ....
So where do you see the conflict, rla?
And so ....
When I went to HS, I had to become proficient in another language other than English ....
That was back in the 1960's ....
The reason given for that was that we were in fact a part of a global community, and we had an obligation to understand how that global community communicated in their own languages, since we could not expect everybody in the world to kowtow to us and have to learn our language, while we got to just sit around on our dead @$$e$ learning nothing ...
Being "forced" to have to become proficient in a 2d language did not cause any conflict in my community that I could discern then or now ...
And I think that it is a good thing today to be able to speak and think in another language other than English ....
So where do you see the conflict, rla?
And so ....
The conflict comes from the Feds telling local educational administrators that they must go to point C
when they are confortable at point A and don't know how to get their local school patrons, teachers and students to want to go to point C. While you were fortunate to attend a school system that
used their own resources and local authority to require foreign language, I went to a high school
that didn't teach a foreigh language. Most persons in this country today attend high schools where
foreign language is an elective and is not required. Many of the better school systems, today introduce foreign language, in an integrated way, during elementary school, which I think is the prefered way.Unfortunately, this is a rather small minority of schools. When budgets get tight,art is the first thing to go, then physical education and then languages.
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 20 2008, 05:44 PM)
rla, EVOLUTION is evolution ...
It can go in many ways ....
Retrogression is as much evolution as is becoming more organized ...
So incipient or actual retrogression can in fact be emergent evolution ...
And in ecology, highly organized species are not guaranteed survival, at all ...
They may in fact be the first to fall, since their high level of organization makes them incapable of rapid evolution ....
A high level of organization can be equated with STASIS, which is antithetical to survival ...
And so ...
It can go in many ways ....
Retrogression is as much evolution as is becoming more organized ...
So incipient or actual retrogression can in fact be emergent evolution ...
And in ecology, highly organized species are not guaranteed survival, at all ...
They may in fact be the first to fall, since their high level of organization makes them incapable of rapid evolution ....
A high level of organization can be equated with STASIS, which is antithetical to survival ...
And so ...
AND SPEAKING OF ENTROPY ...
AND EMERGENT EVOLUTION ...
AND SPENDING MORE AND MORE ENERGY IN A FAILING BID TO SHORE UP THE MATERIAL-POSSESSION BASED AMERICAN ECONOMY ....
WHICH IS NOW PERHAPS TOO HIGHLY ORGANIZED TO SURVIVE ...
We have ...
"Paulson braces public for months of tough times - Treasury chief braces people for months of tough times ahead, says US banking system is sound"
Associated Press
Last updated: 5:52 p.m., Sunday, July 20, 2008
WASHINGTON -- Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson sought to reassure an anxious public Sunday that the banking system is sound, while also bracing people for more troubled times ahead.
"I think it's going to be months that we're working our way through this period -- clearly months," he said.
Paulson said the number of troubled banks will increase as they struggle to cope with big losses on bad mortgages.
The government this month took over IndyMac after a run led it to become the largest regulated thrift to fail.
"Of course the list is going to grow longer given the stresses we have in the marketplace, given the housing correction."
"But again, it's a safe banking system, a sound banking system."
"Our regulators are on top of it."
"This is a very manageable situation," he said in broadcast interviews.
Paulson used appearances on the Sunday talk shows to tell people that deposits up to $100,000 are fully insured.
He said no one has lost a single penny on an insured deposit in the 75 years that the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation has operated.
"We're going through a challenging time with our economy."
"This is a tough time."
"The three big issues we're facing right now are, first, the housing correction which is at the heart of the slowdown; secondly, turmoil of the capital markets; and thirdly, the high oil prices, which are going to prolong the slowdown," he said.
"But remember, our economy has got very strong long-term fundamentals, solid fundamentals."
"And you know, your policy-makers here, regulators, we're being very vigilant."
Paulson said he hoped Congress soon would approve his plan to help shore up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored mortgage companies.
"I'm very optimistic that we're going to get what we need from Congress here, because Congress understands how important these institutions are," Paulson said.
The House plans to vote Wednesday on a housing bill that is expected to include a rescue for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
The companies' shares have plummeted because of fears about their financial stability.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are private, but they were created by Congress to encourage homeownership by buying mortgages from banks.
The two hold or guarantee more than $5 trillion in home loans -- almost half of the nation's total.
"Our first priority today is the stability of the capital markets, the stability of the system."
"And these institutions have investors all around the world ... and those investors need to know that we in the United States of America understand the importance of these institutions to our capital markets and to our economy and to our housing market," he added.
Paulson acknowledged the U.S. is continuing to lose jobs, though he said the $168 billion economic relief plan approved this year has created jobs that would not otherwise exist.
The plan included tax rebates for people and tax breaks for businesses.
Democratic leaders, including presidential candidate Barack Obama, are pushing for a second, smaller, economic installment.
Paulson said he did not want to speculate about that idea.
"I'm focused on this stimulus package."
"It's made a difference in the second quarter."
"It's going to make a difference in the third quarter."
"We need to watch this very carefully," he said.
"Right now we're going through a tough period."
"There is no doubt about it."
"But the stimulus plan is making a difference," he said.
The second-ranking House Republican, Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri, said he was "open-minded" about a follow-up aid plan.
"If they bring things to the table they know the president's not going to do, that has very little to do with stimulating the economy."
"It's all about a political discussion between now and the election," he said.
Paulson appeared on "Face the Nation" on CBS and "Late Edition" on CNN.
Blunt was on CNN.
------
On the Net:
Treasury Department: http://www.treasury.gov/
We agree that Evolution is Evolution and that any part of it may be moving in any direction at a given time and place. However, every process generates a record. Our best understanding of
the record of the evolution of organisms is one of increasing complexity over time--more and more parts, organized into larger and larger wholes. (My wife had to work to day so I gotta go feed
her horses. I'll get back to this later.)
the record of the evolution of organisms is one of increasing complexity over time--more and more parts, organized into larger and larger wholes. (My wife had to work to day so I gotta go feed
her horses. I'll get back to this later.)
QUOTE(Livyjr @ Jul 20 2008, 05:54 PM)
AND SPEAKING OF ENTROPY ...
AND EMERGENT EVOLUTION ...
AND SPENDING MORE AND MORE ENERGY IN A FAILING BID TO SHORE UP THE MATERIAL-POSSESSION BASED AMERICAN ECONOMY ....
WHICH IS NOW PERHAPS TOO HIGHLY ORGANIZED TO SURVIVE ...
We have ...
"Paulson braces public for months of tough times - Treasury chief braces people for months of tough times ahead, says US banking system is sound"
Associated Press
Last updated: 5:52 p.m., Sunday, July 20, 2008
WASHINGTON -- Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson sought to reassure an anxious public Sunday that the banking system is sound, while also bracing people for more troubled times ahead.
"Our first priority today is the stability of the capital markets, the stability of the system."
"And these institutions have investors all around the world ... and those investors need to know that we in the United States of America understand the importance of these institutions to our capital markets and to our economy and to our housing market," he added.
AND EMERGENT EVOLUTION ...
AND SPENDING MORE AND MORE ENERGY IN A FAILING BID TO SHORE UP THE MATERIAL-POSSESSION BASED AMERICAN ECONOMY ....
WHICH IS NOW PERHAPS TOO HIGHLY ORGANIZED TO SURVIVE ...
We have ...
"Paulson braces public for months of tough times - Treasury chief braces people for months of tough times ahead, says US banking system is sound"
Associated Press
Last updated: 5:52 p.m., Sunday, July 20, 2008
WASHINGTON -- Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson sought to reassure an anxious public Sunday that the banking system is sound, while also bracing people for more troubled times ahead.
"Our first priority today is the stability of the capital markets, the stability of the system."
"And these institutions have investors all around the world ... and those investors need to know that we in the United States of America understand the importance of these institutions to our capital markets and to our economy and to our housing market," he added.
And that record continues to fail to say WHY that happened, rla ....
WHY did those organisms become more complex?
And what was their fate after becoming so?
After the demise of the dinosaurs, what type of organisms took over?
More complex?
Or very simple?
And WHY?
And there are also instances of what is called "snap" or "spot" evolution, like the marine iguanas of the Galapagos Islands who can swim, because they have to, to survive ...
The brains of trauma suvivors are also altered ....
That is a form of evolution ....
The operative question still remains one of relevance, rla ....
In life, if we are studious, we can come across a whole host of theories that are discussed by academics and pedants every day of their lives, and for a common person, outside of the curiousity factor, these theories are absolutely worthless ...
In ecology, and in Chinese philosophy, continued growth is associated with continued life ....
When an organism stops growing, or can no longer continue growth, then it is held to be in decline ....
A question for you to consider is this - IS OR DOES A NATION ACT AS AN ORGANISM?
In the USA today, we HAVE to spend much more energy and effort than we did in the days of my youth, not to get ahead, but to keep falling further behind ....
And today, we are a much more complex organism than we were when I was young, and when you were young, as well ...
Sooo ...
What thoughts ca