On this INDEPENDENCE DAY of the calendar year 2008, I would like to take a moment as an older American to muse a bit on what "PATRIOTISM" here in America means to me, from the teachings on the subject that I received as a child in America who was born at the close of WWII, which supposedly should have been the last war that America needed to fight in, but wasn't ....

When I was young, every adult around me at that time had been impacted or affected by WWII in some way, and there was not one single person in my life or community back then that I can remember as being FOR WAR ....

To the contrary, there was no adult that I can recall who wanted any more war, so that from my earliest rembrances, we were taught to KEEP OUR HANDS TO HOME, and to mind OUR OWN BUSINESS ....

That, it was explained to us, was the first step that children had to learn in a civilized world to get along so that war was never needed again ....

FOR WAR IS A SIGN OF FAILURE OF CIVILIZATION ...

By the time that you are going to war, YOU HAVE FAILED ...

That was taught to me by people who themselves had actually been to war, so I always assumed that they had an inkling of an idea of what they were talking about ....

And then, having had a dose of war myself, I still conclude to this day that they were right ...

And so ...

Back then, the 4th of July was still called INDEPENDENCE DAY, and while it was a celebration, IT WAS A CELEBRATION OF SOMETHING VITAL TO OUR SHARED CITIZENSHIP AS AMERICANS ....

It was not merely a day to go out and get hammered drunk as it is today ....

And PATRIOTISM back then in my small-town community was a quiet thing ....

Not this CHEST-THUMPING MANLY MAN thing that it seems to have become today ....

So I am going to muse a bit on it in here today, those days of my own youth here in America, for whatever it might be worth ...

And I say that because yesterday, in the news, they had John McCain and Barack Obama telling all of us what they thought PATRIOTISM in America was supposed to mean to all of us ...

And to my mind, neither quite came close to what I was taught about PATRIOTISM by people who I thought then and now were AMERICAN PATRIOTS ....

And so ...

Right on the first day of Kindergarten for me, this woman teacher told the small group of us kids who were there in HER classroom that, by God, we were not there to fool around ....

Rather, and this is probably considered some kind of child abuse today that would require all kinds of psychologists and grief counselors and such to straighten us back out and get our thumbs back in to our mouths where it seems they belong today, we were told by this teacher that we were there to learn something, and by God, that is exactly what we were going to do, OR ELSE ...

(Back then you still could be made to sit in the corner with a dunce's cap on your head, which I guess is now cruel and unusual punishment here in America)

And what we were there to learn about was what we were a part of, so that we could then grow up as capable citizens to go out and take OUR PRODUCTIVE PLACE in that civilized society to keep it going ON THE PATH that OUR FOREFATHERS IN LIBERTY had set it on back on July 4th, 1776 ....

Sooooo ....

According to that woman teacher, we had a lot of learning to do, and the first part of that had to do with THANKFULNESS .....

Yes ....

THANKFULNESS ...

Thankfulness that we had been born when and where we had been born, so that we were born into LIBERTY, which is not the same as FREEDOM, as it mistakenly is taught to kids of today, in my estimation, anyway ...

IN AMERICA, WE HAVE LIBERTY; WE DO NOT HAVE "FREEDOM" TO DO WHATEVER WE WANT, WHICH IS A RECIPE FOR CHAOS AND THE DISINTEGRATION OF CIVILIZED SOCIETY ....

LIBERTY, here in America, is defined as follows: FREEDOM FROM ALL RESTRAINTS EXCEPT SUCH AS ARE JUSTLY IMPOSED BY LAW ....

It is also defined as: FREEDOM FROM RESTRAINT, UNDER CONDITIONS ESSENTIAL TO THE EQUAL ENJOYMENT OF THIS SAME RIGHT BY OTHERS; or FREEDOM REGULATED BY LAW ...

LIBERTY, here in America, is "THE ABSENCE OF ARBITRARY RESTRAINT, NOT IMMUNITY FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY" ...

This is what was hammered into MY head on the first day of kindergarten by that woman kindergarten school teacher way back when ....

These words are also today to be found under the heading of LIBERTY in Black's Law Dictionary, which is the "official" guide to the meaning of words in courts of law here in America today, and so, that is and remains my desk reference when I am talking about such concepts in America as LIBERTY ..

Yesterday, I don't recall hearing anything about any of this from either Obama or McCain, and I thought that curious and interesting, which is why I am taking some time in here today to put forth my own small-town thoughts on the subject ....

It has become very obvious to me over these last 50+ years since I was in kindergarten that in America, we all do not seem to be taught the same things as children ....

And sometimes, especially in here, I am left wondering if maybe I was brought up on the moon, or something, or maybe, as Marine is always telling me, I am just a relic of a long, by-gone age, and perhaps someone with the experience of the world and its people that Marine has, he may be right ....

But so be it ....

I'm still going to "howl at the moon" in here about what I think PATRIOTISM means to me as an older disabled combat veteran in America ...

Once again, for what it is worth ....

And so ...

The cultural transformation that has occured seems to me to be that patriotism was
transformed into Nationalism and religion was transformed into religosity. The major impediment
to the US being integrated into the family of Nations is our excessive patriotism and religosity.
Our country and our God is superior and of greater worth than your Country and your God.

When I was young, the "Star-Spangled Banner" was NOT the American anthem as I learned it ....

And the Pledge of Allegiance did not have the words "under God" in it ....

And the "moment of silent prayer" was not yet UNLAWFUL in classrooms here in America ....

Those changes to the Pledge of Allegiance and the PROHIBITION of the moment of silent prayer came later in or around 1954, when I was in 4th grade or so ....

So when I was young, we said the Pledge of Allegiance, then we sang "MY COUNTRY TIS OF THEE" as the national anthem, and then we had a moment of silent prayer, in that order ....

AND THAT WAS THE FORMULA, OR RATIONAL BASIS, OR FOUNDATION, FOR AMERICAN "PATRIOTISM" AS I LEARNED IT WHEN I WAS YOUNG ....

And I have to take a break here in a moment, so what I am going to do is post the words to the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, as I first learned them without the words "under God", and then I am going to come back to that PLEDGE and talk about how my version of AMERICAN PATRIOTISM descends down from that to today ....

But before I do that, I am going to define PATRIOTISM as follows: DEVOTION TO ONE'S COUNTRY ....

- Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary

That is my official definition of it, anyway ....

And since MY COUNTRY is America, as opposed to IRAQ, or anywhere else, then MY DEVOTION is to here, and OUR SUPPOSEDLY SHARED VALUES ....

And the basis of that for me stems from these words in the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE to MY COUNTRY of AMERICA, as follows:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

To be continued ...

Do me a favor, rla, and HOLD your thought ....

I'll be back ....

And your point, I believe, is quite valid, which is why I am taking my time in developing my own thoughts on this subject in here this morning ....

I'm a plodder and slow-goer, so give me an opportunity to develop this just a bit further, if you will ....

And thanks for participating, rla ....

A lot of this comes from the discussions we all have been having lately in here, with various viewpoints on OUR role in the world swirling all over the place with seemingly no rational underlying basis for OUR national or foreign policy other than a lot of KNEE-JERKING and DO WHATEVER YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE IF YOU ARE THE BIG GUY WITH THE LAWYERS, GUNS AND MONEY ....

And so ...

Creating the image for a page I did on my site a few years ago was a task which triggered a lot of memories for me. Needless to say some
were less than happy but the sad memories also elicited happier ones as I recalled the time as well as the event which was depicted in the
image. The thought of the people who were a part of my life at that particular point in time brought smiles and at times even a tear or two as I
again relived different periods in my life. As each image was added to the collage it also made me realize I've been around a heck of a lot
longer than I like to admit !

I began this journey as a very little girl whose Daddy was a long distance away from his family fighting an enemy in something Mommy
called World War Two. My first real memory of that time is Mommy talking to the milkman on the front porch one morning about something
called D Day which had just happened that day. My father had been gone a long time - over four years at that time in fact - and she missed
him very much. In fact he had been gone so long he had not ever seen my sister who was born several months after he went overseas. The
memory that brings to mind is how my baby sister was so afraid of men. Living with only Mommy and my brother and I she had no occasion
to spend much time in the company of men and definitely did not like those weird creatures. Except for Grandpa of course ... he didn't count.
Do you have any idea how loud a wee little girl can holler if a strange man tries to pick her up ? I do. And I can tell you it's LOUD !

When Daddy was coming home we spent a great deal of time teaching her how to greet him on his arrival. We showed her pictures of Daddy
in uniform and we talked about him a lot. My brother and I remembered him because Mommy had us write to him all the time (and I do mean
ALL the time... she wrote to him every single day of those interminable years) and she would include our letters with hers. But in truth we
didn't really remember what he looked like because five years is a very long time to children as young as we were.

The day he arrived home our sweet wee sister followed our example when Daddy picked her up and gave him a big hug and kiss just as we
had taught her to do and then immediately turned and said "Mommy I kissed him .. now .. can I please get down ?" ... with her lower lip
quivering and her eyes filled with tears. Bless her little heart.. she was terrified !

The Korean War doesn't bring any significant memory to mind. I suppose because by that time I was so involved with my own life as a
young teenager that I wasn't paying much attention to anything which didn't centre around me and the usual drama which accompanies those
years. Self involvement does tend to dominate during those years if memory serves me correctly.

I do however remember every heart breaking detail of November 22nd 1963 and the days which followed. I was a very young mother filled
with idealism and hope for the future who was by now very much interested in politics. Allen Drury's "Advise and Consent " re-ignited the
expansion of that interest to the political arena of our neighbour to the south from my years of studying American history during my school
years and John F.Kennedy cemented that interest into a full blown passion of mine which has proven to be life long.

To so many of my generation this President of the United States spoke a language we understood. The optimism and hope for a better world
we saw in this man came at a time when our awareness of injustice and the suffering of others was becoming a very real part of our
consciousness. Our innocence died that day. For those next several days time seemed to come to a complete stop as we sat in stunned
horror watching the events unfold. The image of that little boy saluting his father's coffin broke my heart.

The next several years were a nightmare in so many ways. The assassinations of Martin Luther King and Robert F. Kennedy. Again, hope
had been obliterated. Again, we helplessly stood by as we witnessed the brutality around us and the injustice in our world. Vietnam was an
abomination we watched in our living rooms as it destroyed the lives of so many young people. Those who fought and died, those who were
maimed both physically and mentally, and those who would live with the knowledge they made choices in good conscience which made many
call them cowards, all saw their lives destroyed. The polarization of the youth of the day would cripple so many for years to come. Chicago
and Kent State. All events which fostered a cynicism in a society already reeling from the events of the decade which would have lasting
repercussions in the years to come.

As I was working on the collage of those years it struck me that so much of our lives have been affected by war throughout my lifetime. Is it
it any wonder that I abhor even the word ? Old men declare wars and youngsters die. And nothing changes. When will we ever learn ? Hatred
and killing is not, and has not ever, been the answer. They say that man is civilized and better than the animals but we kill our young and
those whose beliefs differ from ours. How do we justify that ?

The next few decades saw an emergence of indifference and hopelessness in the younger generations where escape from reality became
the answer and our world grew ever smaller as space travel and global awareness via satellite made other continents only a few hours
away. We witnessed man's inhumanity to man on a broad scale but by now we had been insulated by a numbness that had permeated our
beings as we grew older and the idealism had been almost erased. Not quite, but almost. There were those who emerged through the years
who did bring hope that perhaps there was still a chance for a better world. Could we, or would we, perhaps finally listen ? After all, we had a
pretty comfortable existence. Why rock the boat. Life was good for us. We were not facing the hardship or tragedy we saw on our TV
screens from around the world. We had become the epitome of a 'ME' First Society.

In Canada we saw Pierre Elliot Trudeau emerge as a man in whom we could trust. His beliefs mirrored ours to a large degree but there
were those of the old way of thinking who didn't like what he had to say and although he did much for our country there was division as well.
Only in his passing did he truly receive the acclaim from his countrymen that this good man deserved.

Princess Diana embracing an Aids patient without hesitation or revulsion at a time when this scourge was first rampant and largely ignored by
those who should have been doing everything possible to search for an answer to it's continuing spread around the world. Again a ray of hope
that goodness and compassion still existed. Her death at such a young age was felt world wide. She was young, she made mistakes, but she
genuinely did try to do her part to make this world a better place.

John F. Kennedy Jr ... the little boy who won everyone's heart so long ago with that heart breaking salute. His death was particularly
poignant as it seemed to close a door which had been ajar for such a long time. Perhaps the day would come when he would grow and
emerge as his father's standard bearer ? That may have been a wishful grasp at a past of innocence but now that possibility was gone as
well.

And then ... the world exploded. Or so it seemed. September 11 2001. No event I can recall has so affected our world. Not even World War
Two and the Holocaust. Of course television didn't exist in 1939 so the insulation was intact and it wasn't on our continent but in some far
away place many days travel away. This time it was right here. Horrific and terrifying. Grief and anger abounded as we witnessed this
abomination. We all know how it has affected our world since that day. Perspective went out the window as the anger and unbearable
sorrow overwhelmed everyone. The repercussions of that day reverberate still. Justifiably those most affected demanded retaliation. The
terrorists who planned and carried out these heinous acts were of course dead but those who had financed and plotted to attack the USA
were still free to plan more carnage.

Certainly terrorism must be stopped and those responsible for it's proliferation brought to justice. And so the War on Terror began with
unanimity and world wide support. Where it will end is anyone's guess. The first real response was the War in Afghanistan which is in fact still
ongoing. Bin Laden is still free and plotting further carnage and Al-Qaeda is regrouping after being decimated in Afghanistan. The cost to
Canada from the war in Afghanistan is to date scores of dead servicemen and women, our first in more than fifty years, in addition to many
hundreds of wounded Canadian soldiers. Watching their comrades carrying those coffins bearing the bodies of our gallant young men and
women from the planes and home onto Canadian soil are days which I shall not soon forget. The innocence may be but a memory but the
tears still flow as easily.

Unfortunately Freedom and Liberty have been compromised as governments react to the threat which is now with us daily. The North
American continent is no longer protected by two oceans and far from the conflict. How we handle the reality of being the target is and will be
very telling about our much vaunted love of freedom and our values. Is the price of victory to be a forfeiture of all we have cherished
throughout our history? Perhaps that will be the most significant tragedy of all to come from 9 -11.

The next target was one which came from an unfinished Gulf War. Perhaps 9 -11 provided the impetus and the approbation of the American
people but I still question the motives of those who are in a position of power and chose this arena. Saddam Hussein was a tyrant who had in
the past attacked neighbouring countries, was known to have had weapons of mass destruction, and was the target of many UN resolutions
and weapons inspections since the Gulf War of 1991, but was he in league with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda? He had not attacked anyone
since the Gulf War more than twelve years before nor had he used the much talked about weapons of mass destruction since the 1980's.
Was it only coincidence that the current President of the United States and most of his cabinet and advisors were respectively the son and
members of the administration of the man who was President in 1991 ? Did 9 -11 provide a convenient excuse for them to finish a war they
had every intention of waging from the day they regained power ? An excuse guaranteed to garner the approval of the majority of the
American people who had no taste for war in the aftermath of Vietnam?

There were massive protests world wide including in the US and Great Britain against this Iraq War on a scale never before seen but those
in power and in control of the decision making paid them no heed. The ultimate cost to Britain's Prime Minister for his decisions and support of
the US position is now a part of history. A good man and an excellent Prime Minister but one who found regrettably that the cost to him was
his career. One more very real tragedy to add to the ever growing list.

The first Gulf War had won the support of the UN and many countries around the world had rallied to join a coalition to force Saddam to
retreat from his invasion of Kuwait. In this new war this would not be the case. The decision to again wage war with Iraq saw the United
States and Great Britain with few allies and without United Nations sanction. Countries which had historically been unquestioned allies have
been alienated and ostracized and international relations are at an all time low. The ultimate cost to the credibility of the United Nations
remains unknown. A union of nations world-wide founded after the Second World War to safeguard the world from war may very well end up
being added to the growing list of victims of 9 -11.

'Shock and Awe' was the label given to the planned bomb attacks. Shocking ... most definitely. Awesome ? I think not. The war was one
sided as the US is of course the most powerful nation on earth and a declaration was made by the President of the United States several
years ago that the mission had been accomplished. Now,all this time later, young American soldiers are still dying every day, Saddam
Hussein is dead and Iraq is in the midst of what can only be called a Civil War. The Americans are seen as occupiers of an Arab country not
the liberators who would supposedly be welcomed with open arms and there is no end in sight. The weapons of mass destruction claimed to
be the main reason for immediate action are still to be found. Another Vietnam in the making ? Dear God, I pray I am wrong.

It seems as if the list of casualties from 9 - 11 will never end. Have the terrorists won after all ? If our way of life and our values and
principles as defined by those who wrote the charters on which our countries were founded so many years ago are discarded because the
threat this time is imminent and close at hand we will have abandoned everything of value in our democratic and freedom loving countries
which so many have died to protect throughout my lifetime.

I started this collage journey of my lifetime as a little girl and find myself now so many years later still seeing those who would claim to want
only peace, in the name of freedom, choosing war as the answer, and still sending more youngsters to do the dying. Will we never learn ? Or
will we only learn when it is too late for everyone ?

There simply has to be a better way. No child anywhere should ever again have to face the horror of war regardless of race, religion, or
political philosophy. And most assuredly not because of a lust for power by a cabal of zealots who would wilfully destroy all of us 'for our own
good' just because they have the power and might to do so.

Dear God, please help us all and grant us the wisdom and courage needed to overcome this threat to our very much taken for granted
freedom. We owe at least that to those who handed us this awesome responsibility, and most assuredly to our children and grandchildren.

And that is what I am exploring in here, to be truthful, rla ...

At the risk of chiding you, I will say that it is rash of you to use terms in here such as "excessive patriotism" and especially, "religiosity", without providing a common definition, and a source for that definition, as I have done for LIBERTY and PATRIOTISM ....

My thought yesterday, upon hearing what Obama and McCain both had to say PATRIOTISM meant was that my dictionary is either no ******* good, or we have a multitude of dictionaries in this country, just like bibles, and they all define words totally differently ....

You cannot just assume that I or anybody else in here derives some meaning of your use of the term "religiosity" from out of thin air, as if its meaning was somehow ABSOLUTE and ARCHETYPICAL ....

It is not ...

It is highly subjective unless accompanied by some definition in writing ....

And so ....

A very powerful piece, CO ....

It brought tears to my eyes, it did, and literally so ....

You, I think, have a special place in this forum, as does Mr. A.B., and lenal, both of who are yet older than you .....

Mr. A.B. actually "fought" in WWII, and he may be the only person in here who can say that ....

I certainly didn't, and so would be a fool to try and tell Mr. A.B. what WWII was about from a soldier's perspective, since I wasn't even born yet ....

lenal had to live through WWII as a young woman, I believe ....

So she would have her own views about those times and how they impacted on her ....

And you were the daughter of someone who left, and as we combat soldiers would say, "never came home the same again" ....

You may well be the only person in this forum of seeming younger folks who has those particular memories of WWII, although your memories of having a father gone to war would likely coincide to some degree with children of veterans since then ....

And then there is me, who was born right at the close of WWII, in a time of alleged and supposed PEACE ...

So, in some way, we have "generations" in here, with me as the baby brother, or son, since Mr. A.B. could well have been my "father", in the sense that my own father, a WWII vet, and Mr. A.B. would be of about an age ....

So you are kind of "BIG SIS" to me in here ....

And however it goes, you have an inkling of what it is that I feel when I make my various posts in here about the absolute STOOOOPIDITY of war as a means to "STABILITY", which can only exist in a state of the absence of war ....

So talk about a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS, alright ....

Which is what this IRAQINAM war is to me as a LOYAL PATRIOTIC AMERICAN CITIZEN ...

And so ....

I started posting in here in CGCS back in 2004, and I have stayed here ever since because here is where I feel at home as an American citizen talking to the "CANDID WORLD" in an uncensored manner because when those people out in the candid world think about "AMERICANS", I don't want myself being lumped in with a bunch of IGNORANT BIGOTED WOMEN-ABUSING KNUCKLE-DRAGGING THUGS who also call themselves "americans" and who are out there in the world like BERSERKERS ON A RAMPAGE shouting "OOOOOOOOH-RAH" and destroying people's live, homes, communities and property in the name of George W. Bush ....

DO NOT MISTAKE ME FOR THEM!

That is my message in here to the CANDID WORLD, and since this is truly an UNCENSORED INTERNATIONAL FORUM, reaching many other nations and peoples other than Americans, this is the place for me to post MY OWN MESSAGE to the world about WHO I am as a person, so if some TAY-RIST wants to come and blow my personal **** away, it will be because my words brought it on myself, rather than just having it be some impersonal thing ....

Yesteday, I heard, and I am sure the world did too, John McCain say that PATRIOTISM was putting your country FIRST ....

And here I am this morning saying NO!

NOT IN AMERICA IT IS NOT!

At least in MY America, the version of it that I am a PATRIOT of ...

John McCain's definition of PATRIOTISM to me is UN-AMERICAN ....

And decidedly so ....

In fact, to me, John McCain's definition of PATRIOTISM is FASCISM in disguise, or just used as a synonym, in that he is defining what PATRIOTISM should be thought of in America as FASCISM was in Germany before WWII, which is why there was a WWII, not to beat Hitler, or save the Jews, but to defeat the very IDEOLOGY of FASCISM itself and ERADICATE the IDEOLOGY from the world forever, because FASCISM always ends up being a necessary PRECURSER to THUGGISM, EXPANSIONISM, MILITARY DOMINATION, AND WAR ....

PEOPLE WHO WERE FOR PEACE AND STABILITY IN THE WORLD AT THE END OF WWII WERE OPPOSED TO FASCISM AS A DOCTRINE OR IDEOLOGY ...

AND SO IT WAS UNMERCIFYLLY STAMPED OUT ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH BY THE SUPPOSED "CIVILIZED" NATIONS OF THE EARTH, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ...

OR SO I WAS TAUGHT AS A CHILD BY THOSE IN AMERICA WHO HAD ACTUALLY FOUGHT IN WWII AS AMERICAN SOLDIERS, AND THUS HAD AS MUCH RIGHT AS ANYBODY TO SAY WHAT IT WAS THAT THEY PERSONALLY WERE FIGHTING FOR OR AGAINST ....

And here is John McCain, bring it back into the world in the guise of PATRIOTISM ...

FASCISM: a political philosophy, movement or regime that exalts nation and race above the individual and that stands for centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition ...

- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

There is what I believe rla is calling "excessive patriotism" ....

As a LOYAL PATRIOTIC AMERICAN, however, I call it ABOMINATION ....

ABOMINATION: something abominable ...

ABOMINABLE: worthy of or causing disgust and hatred; quite disagreeable or unpleasant ...

- Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary

So I have this thread running in here on what is INDEPENDENCE FROM TYRANNY DAY here in America to let the CANDID WORLD know that not all Americans EMBRACE FASCISM, just because some important politicians here in America today ESPOUSE it as a NATIONAL POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY here in America ....

And so ...

Livyjr, I accept my spanking (my father only gave me four in a lifetime and I remember the particulars of each one and they were all just--though my Mama beat on all of us regularly for some silly infraction or other). The main modern use of, "religiosity" is to describe exaggerated or ostenatious showing off of one's religiousness (excessive piety).

From your lips is my thought, CO ....

But to me, a combat veteran whose GOD is a lot more "OLD TESTAMENT" than the wishy-washy "do what you want when you want and don't feel bad about it because Jesus loves you no matter what" god that is in vogue here in America today, my GOD says to me: "GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES, SONNY BOY; YOU WANT SOMETHING, GET OFF YOUR @$$ ..."

And so ....

That's what this thread is for, as I see it ....

I don't like to PROVOKE my GOD with unnecessary entreaties, because HE or SHE has quite an irascible temper, and so consequently, doesn't like to tell me twice ....

And has the power to hurl fireballs in my direction just to reinforce the point ...

And so ...

Well done, rla ...

And it really does make a difference in keeping the thread "tight" ....

Many times in here, it is like the TOWER OF BABLE with a thousand different languages being spoken all at once ....

I prefer to be more old-fashioned, and take the guesswork for people out of the meaning of the terms that I am using ....

And if I am mis-using them, then people can show me from the defintion how I am mistaken in my meaning ....

It keeps the food-fight aspects out of here as well ....

I'm too old for food fights, myself ...

And so ...

It's indeed interesting, rla, your thought above here ....

You take me back in time to the John Kerry forum which preceeded this one, where I was again talking about PATRIOTISM, and the term RELIGIOSITY came into that discussion as well, although in the context of George W. Bush, back then ...

That is when the IRAQINAM WAR was still considered a CRUSADE ....

Before George W. Bush FLIP-FLOPPED and said it was no longer a CRUSADE ....

He was for it being a CRUSADE before he was against it being a CRUSADE ....

And so ...

As a combat veteran, rla, I don't have or practice a RELIGION per se ...

Or put another way, I am not a member or adherent or participant in any of the multitude of religions one can find here in America, or in the world, for that matter ....

I have faith ...

I have belief ....

And I have a GOD ....

And as a combat veteran, I have a very personal relationship with what is known to me as MY GOD ....

So I don't need an INTERCESSOR, and when I tell that to priests or ministers, they look at me funny, or askance, or in some cases, they get real pissed off ...

But no matter ...

So I don't believe that I am subject to or a victim of RELIGIOSITY ....

However, rla, what I would like you to do as a "thought experiment", since you have read some or many of my posts in here, where I am both candid and exceedingly frank and quite blunt, is to come back and "classify" me on some scale in that regard ....

Say, like "more towards", "tending towards", or "far away from" ....

And it is relevant, rla ....

Or I wouldn't ask you to take the time ....

And we'll continue to develop that thought, since the mere definition, now stated, is still insufficient to explain how religiosity fits into this discussion of PATRIOTISM v. "excessive patriotism" ....

And so ....

Old fashioned standards wear well my friend.. And it appears we share the same "God" as well. I gave up on organized religion a very long time ago. Hypocrisy is one more thing I abhor.

MY grandpa always told me .. "stop believing the world owes you anything, it doesn't. It was here long before you were."

Two quotes come to mind Livyjr..

"Even if it were desirable, America is not strong enough to police the world by military force. If that attempt is made, the blessings of liberty will be replaced by coercion and tyranny at home. Our Christian ideals cannot be exported to other lands by dollars and guns. Persuasion and example are the methods taught by the Carpenter of Nazareth, and if we believe in Christianity we should try to advance our ideals by his methods. We cannot practice might and force abroad and retain freedom at home. We cannot talk world cooperation and practice power politics."
- Rep. Howard Buffet ®, Sen. Robert Taft's Campaign Mgr., 1952

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
- Mark Twain

I am offended by the inclusion of the words "under God" in the American Pledge of Allegiance ....

I was there, pledging allegiance to the REPUBLIC before the American Legion got those words stuck in there, and I am saying in here that the meaning of the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE was totally changed and altered by the inclusion of those two words, which maybe leads us towards what rla is talking about when he or she brings "religiosity" into this discussion, although rla speaks for him or herself quite well, and so, I won't propose to speak for rla on that issue ...

And to me, as a combat veteran, and LOYAL PATRIOTIC AMERICAN, this is relevant to this conversation as follows ...

And here, I am referring to the American Soldier's Handbook which I received as a member of the U.S. Army in 1968, specifically number VI of the CODE OF CONDUCT FOR MEMBERS IF THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES which read as follows back then:

I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free.

I will trust in my GOD and the United States of America.

end quotes

I believe it was John Adams who said words to the effect that the United States Constitution would only work for a "GOD-FEARING" nation, and I believe that he is close to the truth there, myself ....

And of course, that then opens up a HUGE CAN OF WORMS here with what does "GOD-FEARING" really mean, and all I could say is don't meet mine on a bad day ....

But that is subjective and experiential, Gestalt, maybe, and so I won't go there, since it is a digression, anyway ....

Where I want to go instead is back to the 2d sentence of No. 6 above, to wit:

I will trust in my GOD and the United States of America.

Now, I did not make GOD all caps on purpose ...

Rather, I faithfully reproduced what was in the original ....

"MY GOD" ...

It is possessive, and it is meant to be possessive here in America ....

"MY GOD" is merely my god ....

NOT YOURS, NOR CAN I MAKE "MY GOD" YOURS WITH TREATS OR VIOLENCE IN OUR REPUBLIC, WHERE INDIVIDUALS, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR CREED, ARE NOT LESS THAN THE "STATE" OR "NATION", AS IS THE CASE IN FASCISM ...

And we were not merely handed those Soldier's Handbooks and told to forget them ...

We were supposed to read them in our free moments, and we had classes on them, so that if we couldn't read, and many couldn't, we would still know what was in there that we were supposed to know AS AMERICAN SOLDIERS, as opposed to any other kind of soldier of any other nation out there, including even Canada, which is right next door to us, but happens to be a separate nation from America, although equal as a nation in stature as another people on the face of the earth besides us ....

By capitalizing "GOD", and making it singular possessive, somebody in the Army back then could say, "WELL, I'M AN ATHIEIST, AND SO I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD" ....

To which the Drill Sargeant would retort, "WELL, YOUR GOD THEN IS 'NO GOD'" ....

And that would be that .....

No push or shove about it ....

And a MUSLIM in the U.S. Army could say, "WELL, MY GOD IS ALLAH!"

And so it would be ....

And the Jew could say "MY GOD IS JEHOVAH" ...

And on and on and on ....

RELIGION WAS NOT TO DIVIDE US AS AN ARMY!

IMPOSED BELIEFS ABOUT RELIGION ARE ANTI-THETICAL TO AMERICAN LIBERTY!

So in the Army of 1968, we were still free in America to "see" or "view" GOD as we wished ....

BUT ....

At the same time, during the Viet Nam war, the words in the American Legion-MODIFIED Pledge of Allegiance CLASHED with that intellectual liberty ....

And that has brought us to where we are now, in my estimation, with this HATRED of MUSLIMS that underlies George W. Bush's WAR OF AGGRESSION in IRAQINAM ....

And on this DAY OF INDEPENDENCE FROM TYRANNY here in America, I have chosen to not stay silent about my thoughts on all of that ....

SILENCE GIVES CONSENT ....

And so ....

That was some good upbringing you got, CO ....

And it has served to bring you from there to here, alright ...

I think I'd of liked the old man, CO ....

I'd have shook his hand for sure if I heard him say that, and I would have replied, "RIGHT ON!"

And so ...

I cannot begin to match the thoughts set down here by Livyjr, Betty, and rla. So I will sit at your feet, and though Livyjr is closest to my age (I having been born in 1950) I regard him too as an older brother at least. Not a brother in arms, because I did not share with him the world of the blood red moon that forges the "band of brothers". Not in this life at least... but perhaps hinted at in images from across the sea of dreams I remember the dance of death. I do not remember why we went to kill our fellow man or why he came to kill us... I do not remember who I fought for or who he fought for... perhaps he was defending or avenging his loved ones, or maybe more immediately his brothers in battle... perhaps that is the best I could say about him or me.

I read that after the battle of Zama, Hannibal was forced to retreat back into his city of Carthage by the Great Roman general Scipio Africanus. I read this account in West's "Ancient History":

"Despair blazed into passionate wrath, and the Carthaginians fitly chose death rather such ruin and exile. Carelessly enough, the Roman army remained at a distance for some days, and meanwhile the dismantled and disarmed town became one great workshop for war. Women gave their hair to make cords for catapults. The temples were ransacked for arms and torn down for timber and metal; and to the angry dismay of Rome Carthage stood a four year siege, holding out heroically against famine, pestilence and war. At last in 146 B.C. the roman legions forced their way over the walls. For seven days more the fighting continued house to house, until at last a miserable remanant surrendered. Fifty thousand of a population of seven hundred thousand. The commander Hasdrubal did at the last moment make his peace with the Roman general; but his disdainful wife, taunting him from the burning temple roof as he knelt at Scipio's feet, first slew their two boys and then cast herself with them into the flaming ruins; and numbers more then chose likewise to die in the flames rather than pass into Roman slavery....

For many days the city was given up to pillage; then by express orders from Rome it was deliberately burned to the ground, and its site plowed up, sown with salt, and cursed. To carry out this crime fell to the lot of one of the purest and noblest characters Rome ever produced, "Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus", the nephew and adopted grandson of Scipio Africanus. As this last great Scipio watched the smoldering ruins (they burned for seventeen days) with his friend Polybius the historian, he spoke his fear that some day Rome might suffer a like fate, and he was heard to repeat Homer's lines:

"Yet come it will, the day decreed by fate,
The day when thou, Imperial Troy, must bend,
And see thy warriors fall, thy glories end."

(end of West's narrative)

How many scenes in dreams are echoes of lives we've led? I only know I have dreamed such scenes, as could have been as described above. My father who fought and was wounded at the Battle of the Bulge and helped liberate Paris refused to tell me about what war was like. He voted for Ike, and Kennedy, and I saw something disturb him as the decade Betty described follow the President's death. He remained quiet about war as did my older male relatives. He and my uncles never bragged about having fought the great war, and their conversations when I eavesdropped were about sports and music... and women, never about war. They never fomented for Vietnam, though they despised those who disrepected the soldier. Though I opposed tha war, I did not run, and I never disrespected those who served. Those things I knew not to do without being told.

I came across this quote from someone I have come to admire....

"We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter--exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place--the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else's keeping. This is patriotism on the "Russian" plan."
- Mark Twain, a Biography

Back when people in America were just starting to get an inkling that maybe all was no longer right in the world, this being about 1966, a song came out on the radio with the lyrics:

THERE'S SOMETHING HAPPENING HERE ...

WHAT IT IS AIN'T EXACTLY CLEAR ....

THERE'S A MAN WITH A GUN OVER THERE ....

TELLING ME I BETTER BEWARE ..."

That was three years or so before I myself went to Viet Nam as a combat infantryman, and those words remain burned into my consciousness to this day, for the stark reality that they expressed back then ...

Without us really knowing what was going on, we were in fact being HERDED TOWARDS something ...

And that SOMETHING, of course, was a COLLISION with "GODLESS COMMUNISM" ....

I used to go to various veteran's related events here in America, and it would NAUSEATE me when I heard some smug politician or religious speaker talk to us about "DEFEATING GODLESS COMMUNISM" ....

According to what we were taught as American soldiers in the U.S. Army in 1968 BY THE U.S. Army, COMMUNISTS HAD A RIGHT TO BE GODLESS ....

But at the same time, OUR military, and ME, were being prepared to go to Viet Nam to fight against GODLESS COMMUNISM as a threat to America, just as FASCISM had been 30 years before ....

This being back when DOMINOES ARE ABOUT TO FALL if we didn't kill a COMMIE for Christ today ...

And here it must be said the the Germans at the time of WWII were very religious, and their religious leaders SUPPORTED Hitler ....

The POWER GAME ....

And somehow, between WWII and Viet Nam, that POWER GAME came here to America, so that we were taught that while someone in America could be GODLESS, someone in Viet Nam could be accused of being GODLESS and could be killed by us with no questions being asked ....

And people in America bought into this and so something like a MILLION Vietnamese died .....

AND THEY WERE NOT GODLESS!

Their belief in a "higher power" was as sincere as mine ....

But we killed them, anyway ....

HEY!

THEY WERE GODLESS COMMIES, afterall ....

According to the American Legion, anyway ...

And since this was a "NATION UNDER GOD", according to the NEW MODIFIED AMERICAN LEGION PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, it was now our duty to EXTERMINATE these alleged "godless" people ....

And now ....

Well, hey .....

You people all read the same news as I ....

You don't need me to explain that for you ....

Five years later, and we are still killing off GODLESS MUSLIMS in IRAQINAM, including the women and children ....

Even the young ones who haven't yet had an opportunity to give the matter some thought ....

All on the premise that "nits breed lice", which is to say, if we don't kill those kids when they are young and helpless yet, they will all grow up to be MUSLIM TAY-RISTS and they will overcome and conquer America ....

And what ABSOLUTE BULL**** that all is .....

It reminds me of someone named Herod, I think, killing off a generation of children over there so he wouldn't feel threatened by one of them, if allowed to grow ...

And so ...

Livyjr.,

Thank you for this thread. While I enjoy celebratory threads that are packed with images of exploding fireworks and American flags, this seems more apt.

-Peggy

YAHOO, "BIG SIS"!

You have just given me some schooling here, and that is a fact .....

In 1952, I was just 6 years old ....

Blissfully ignorant of these kinds of people that you quote here ....

And back then, there was no TV where I was out in the country, so up until right exactly now, I was totally ignorant that this one man in America was so prescient back then ...

Thanks for bringing that to OUR attention as American citizens in here, especially on this particular day ....

As a nation, we don't know OUR own history ....

While the common folks of the greater part of the world do ....

WHICH IS WHY WE COME ACROSS OUT THERE AS THE BIGGEST HYPOCRITES ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, THESE DAYS ....

Especially when we crow and trumpet and sound gongs to the CANDID WORLD about being an alleged "CHRISTIAN NATION" ...

And so ...

And in America, Peg, we common folks actually get to talk back and forth to each other this way, because we have LIBERTY ....

And so ...

Good to see you here ....

Welcome to "THE FAMILY", TROU ....

Only in here, in CGCS could this "meeting" or "family gathering" be taking place in America on INDEPENDENCE DAY ...

I certainly appreciate your thoughts in here ...

This is something that "just happened" ....

And it is still "just happening" as these words come out in print in response to your words above here ....

It is something that has been building and building now for many, many years with me - this SICKNESS and WEARY-NESS of all the killing that is being done in OUR names, as if we were all nothing more than a PACK OF UNLETTERED BLOOD-THIRSTY BARBARIANS over here ....

Your one post recently in response to Marine in another thread likely served as a catalyst in some way, as well ....

My thought is that right now, we can continue to REGRESS, as we have been doing ...

And thus, we can DESTROY the very fabric of OUR nation and society ....

We can all become BRUTES, or prey to brutes ...

Or collectively, we can say ENOUGH ...

WE ARE SICK OF THE KILLING!

STAND DOWN THE COMBAT TROOPS!

And I personally fail to see the THIRD OPTION ....

Because I don't believe there is one ....

And because I believe in a lightning-hurling vengeful GOD myself, I am making it real clear to HIM or HER exactly where I am in this mess ...

I AM NOT A PART OF IT ...

THE BLOOD OF THOSE INNOCENT PEOPLE IS NOT ON MY HANDS!

And I will not accept George W. Bush or anyone else in America trying to put some there ....

And so ...

FREEDOM FROM TYRANNY IN THE WORLD BEGINS RIGHT HERE AT HOME IN AMERICA, FIRST!

And on Independence Day in America, I think it is appropriate for us to think and talk that way ....

Or at least me, anyway ....

I'm old and gimpy and have lived my life here in relative peace ....

If some THUG wants to now come and end my life for speaking out as A LOYAL PATRIOTIC AMERICAN against this ABOMINATION, then so be it ....

But mind, bring a lunch ....

And so ...

Well, we just got back from the Fourth a July parade held in Waxahachie.

Lots a Vets in the parade and not a one of them spouting God Damn America.

Y'all wouldn't a liked it.

What an excellent addition to this thread, TROU ....

When I got back to here from Viet Nam in 1970, I had made a previous "vow" that from this day forward, like Joseph, I too would fight no more forever ....

And ever since, every day, it seems, somebody here in America has to taunt me for that, and "test" me ....

It don't take no skill to kill someone ....

It certainly don't make someone a "HEEEE-RO" ....

Although here in America, it does, doesn't it?

But I myself refrain from doing it ....

BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE ...

Well, in my life, I want to be more than some THUG or BARBARIAN or KILLER of women and children ....

And if that makes me "UN-AMERICAN" well ...

**** them that think it, is my thought ...

And pardon me for being blunt ...

I work on getting over it ...

But so far it has been hard work ....

And so ...

Marine ...

I bet that you have callouses on your knuckles that are three feet thick now from all the years that you have been dragging them along on the ground ....

And in all sincerity, thanks for coming here and making that post ...

AND TELLING US ALL WHAT IT IS THAT WE WOULDN'T LIKE, AS IF YOU KNEW OUR MINDS AND WERE OUR JUDGE ...

Hey, Marine, if this was IRAQINAM, instead of America, you could just blow our **** away, couldn't you ....

And that thought alone is VIAGRA to you ...

PANT! PANT! PANT! (slobber)

And so ...

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE FROM TYRANNY, Marine ...

And you can thank me for it ...

I FOUGHT AND BLED FOR YOUR FREEDOM TO COME IN HERE AND RUN ME DOWN!

To mock all of us in here, Marine, with your manly manliness ....

And so ...

I'm glad you apparently had a good time, Marine. Why do you feel the need to come in here and "expletive deleted" on everybody else?

Not cool at all.

We used to have an INDEPENDENCE DAY parade up here where I am, Marine ...

(And no, Marine is really a character in here on his own, I did not do like Cicero and create Marine just to have a foil in here as a poetical device)

But it got SUPPRESSED somewhere along the way ....

Somebody in power somewhere no longer wanted us thinking about INDEPENDENCE FROM TYRANNY ...

So it got changed over the the FOURTH OF JULY, which now has no meaning other than a day to start drinking heavily the night before, because you can get as drunk as you want and not have to work today, BECAUSE YOU ARE FREE, and its a GUMMINT HOLIDAY ... .....

People like it that way ....

INDEPENDENCE DAY was too somber for them ....

All that history and **** to have to think about ........

And so it goes, Marine ....

YOU can appreciate that, I know ....

YOU who are the acknowledged EXPERT in here on who is an UNLAWFUL COMBATANT in IRAQINAM, and so can be legally killed with no due process of law afforded him or her ...

JUST EXTERMINATION, IN THE NAME OF GOD ...

And so ...

Oh, Peg ....

Now come on ....

Marine is just a good old boy having some fun is all ....

Maybe they will celebrate their FREEDOM down there later on, after a few kegs of beer have been tapped, by chain-dragging some poor UN-AMERICAN down there just to teach him a lesson in AMERICAN PATRIOTISM ...

And so ...

I think that if he were still alive today, Peg, that Karl Gustav Jung would be salivating just for the chance to get Marine "on the couch" to see what made him tick ....

That would result in several more books is my thought ...

And if Marine were to donate himself to science today as a living specimen, why, I bet that he could be the cause of 200 or 300 Ph.D's at least in all kinds of human psychology studies ....

Some real-ground breaking work, it would be ....

And so ...

And STAY OFF YOUR LAWN! (kidding)

I am exploring too these thoughts Livyjr. After the death of my Mother (and other losses) I began to write to deal with my trauma.

I saw that since I was a young boy who (strangely) liked girls for themselves, would play with them when the other boys wouldn't.

When I came back to play the games we boys played some called me a "sissy" because I liked them. I would punch any who said that in the mouth to prove I wasn't, but it was the commonest insult among boys, and I in spite of liking them felt it keenly. The worst thing you could endure was to be called or likened to a "girl". Yet I thought it was a stupid insult even then at five years old, and after years of hearing this "insult" being repeated against others I said so. I said:

"How can you say girls are less than you when you came from one?"


I used to have a plastic "Prince Valiant" Sword and Shield that I played with when I was five. With a towel for a cape; "Oh! What a guy was I!"

I had an older cousin (about 9 or 10), and one day she made me real mad. She stole my plastic shield and sword. She never explained why and I never forgave her on into adulthood, until during the 9 months my mother lay dying she helped me and my brother care for her.

One evening she and I were sitting on the back porch as my mother lay sleeping, and she told me why she stole my sword and shield way back then. She was being molested by an older male relative, and threatened by him, that if she told anyone, all of us would be killed. I discovered that my cousin "Carol" I will call her here, was one of many women, perhaps as many as a third, who were molested as children by male adults. She took the sword and shield to protect herself, and though her rapist laughed at her futile efforts, she tried to fend him off again and again with them.

I do believe that we men have to be taught to be bloody apes, or maybe, we fall to it "naturally" in the absense of being taught to be men. But either way it is at the root of war in my opinion. Because aggressive war is the ultimate act of rape. It is part of the murderous dance of domination and submission still practiced by the chimpanzee. With that ape we share imposing our will on all others who are "weaker", lest they impose their will on us. We need to learn a new way. A way where we protect what needs protecting, both within and without, and from not the least of which is "ourselves".

In the begining of the "fantasy" book I mentioned I am writing, I wrote these lines of "fiction" from a Delphic Oracle

The Rose now lost Ten Thousand year
As Fire Stone and bitter Frost
Made Nature's sleep grow dreams of fear
An' Men count not the cost

From womb to tomb an' round again
While our Mother slept
Through troubled dreams 'neath Bloody Moons
Maids' blameless bowed and wept

I speak My Soothe; Within these years
Anew shall grow The Rose
Watered mid scorn...and blood and tears
Will also grow The Thorn

I've never needed to profess my patriotism, as my family's history does it for me.
God bless this nation and the people that define it.

I won't even attempt to reason with you Marine... Perhaps this best explains why ..

" Every evil has its remedy, except folly. To reprimand an obstinate fool or to preach to a dolt is like writing upon the water. Christ healed the blind, the halt, the palsied, and the leprous. But the fool He could not cure."
- Kahlil Gibran

Perhaps your own countrymen might give you pause to reflect ... or at least to hesitate for even a second and wonder if perhaps you don't have all the answers.

Dwight David Eisenhower, President of the United States, General of the Army, wrote in 1953: " Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron."

Another of your countrymen Benjamin Franklin, at age 77, from a letter to Sir Joseph Banks, written July 27, 1783: " I hope that Mankind will at length, as they call themselves reasonable creatures, have reason and sense enough to settle their differences without cutting throats, for in my opinion there never was a good war, or a bad peace."

And I do appreciate Marine coming into this thread as an ANTAGONIST to my PROTAGONIST ....

For of all people in here in this forum that I can think of, Marine is one of the most essential to this conversation that is taking place in here right now on INDEPENDENCE FROM TYRANNY DAY on America, which Marine chooses to call THE FOURTH OF JULY, instead ....

One purpose that Marine serves in here quite admirably is to demonstrate pretty conclusively to the rest of us that the wording of the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is NOT TRUE ....

We most assuredly are no longer ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL, assuming that we ever were one ....

To the contrary, we are a DIVIDED NATION with NO LIBERTY or JUSTICE for some, and UNRESTRAINED FREEDOM for others, especially the FOLLOWERS of AMERICAN COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF George W. Bush, who is Marine's SUPREME COMMANDER on earth today ....

People who can get a lobbyist and buy themselves EXEMPTIONS from OUR laws ....

People who can give money to politicians here in America in exchange for SPECIAL FAVORS ....

And Marine is the MAN WITH THE GUN who stands between us and them ....

I AM FOR LIBERTY ...

Marine IS FOR FREEDOM ....

My LIBERTY serves to make us all EQUAL in the eyes of the law ....

Marine's FREEDOM is from OUR laws, and serves to make us decidedly UNEQUAL ....

MIGHT, in the world of Marine, is what makes RIGHT ....

Not some ******* words written by some white-wine drinking liberal pencil-necked geek on a piece of paper called LAW ....

That **** is just for pussies ...

And that brings us to something that Marine posted in my veteran's thread a little while back, from the NEW VERSION of the CODE OF CONDUCT that is now in place here in America for George W. Bush's military, which may no longer be OUR American military, since it fights for George W. Bush, and not the United States of America, anymore ...

And here is Marine's post in question:

Well Junior, I like the updated version:

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free.

end quotes

Compare that with "my version" of the CODE OF CONDUCT from 1968:

I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free.

end quotes

As with the alteration of the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE, somehow the meaning of the CODE OF CONDUCT has been greatly altered here, and that had to be by ORDER of an American president, since the CODE OF CONDUCT that governed MY ACTIONS as an American soldier in the field was from EXECUTIVE ORDER 10631, signed by the President of the United States of America on 17 August 1955 ....

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom ....

THAT WAS NOT IN THE ORIGINAL ...

WE WERE NOT FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM ....

THAT WAS NOT OUR PURPOSE ...

WE WERE FIGHTING TO DEFEND THE LIBERTY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ...

LIBERTY, here in America, is defined as "FREEDOM FROM ALL RESTRAINTS EXCEPT SUCH AS ARE JUSTLY IMPOSED BY LAW" ....

More importantly, it is defined as "FREEDOM FROM RESTRAINT, UNDER CONDITIONS ESSENTIAL TO THE EQUAL ENJOYMENT OF THIS SAME RIGHT BY OTHERS; or FREEDOM REGULATED BY LAW" ...

LIBERTY, here in America, is "THE ABSENCE OF ARBITRARY RESTRAINT, NOT IMMUNITY FROM REASONABLE REGULATIONS AND PROHIBITIONS IMPOSED IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY" ...

THAT IS WHAT I WAS FIGHTING FOR ...

IN THE INTEREST OF THE COMMUNITY ...

But Marine's NEW ALTERED CODE OF CONDUCT radically changes that equation TO OUR DETRIMENT as LOYAL PATRIOTIC AMERICAN citizens ....

Marine's new altered version does away with THE INTERESTS OF THE COMMUNITY, and instead, subordinates the individual, which is what OUR American communities are made up of, to the WILL OF THE "STATE", which is George W. Bush as COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF ....

Marine's version talks TO ME about FREEDOM from all restraints ....

A FREEDOM to go out in the world, and slaughter whomever, in the name of George W. Bush, and George W. Bush, alone ....

AND AS A LOYAL, PATRIOTIC DISABLED AMERICAN COMBAT VETERAN IN HERE TODAY OF ALL DAYS, I AM GREATLY DISTURBED BY THE FREEDOM THIS HAS GIVEN THE "american" MILITARY OF TODAY TO GO OUT IN THE WORLD TO TAKE WHAT THEY WILL AT GUNPOINT, AND TO COMMIT WHOLESALE MURDER IN OUR NAME ...

And Marine, if you want to try and come up here and shut my mouth for me, you better bring a Marine Division with you, at the minimum ....

Youll need that many just to hold me down, so you can STOMP me ....

And so ...

You're quite a feisty lady, CO ....

And so ...

You want to take a run up to Canaday, Marine, and kick CO's @$$ for her, you better bring TWO Marine Divisions ....

Maybe three, on second thought ...

And she's just an old lady now ...

A few years ago, it would have taken five ....

And then you would have gotten all chewed up and spit back out in small pieces ...

BY HER WORDS ALONE ....

MIGHT DON'T MAKE RIGHT, Marine ....

Maybe you'll learn that someday ...

Along with THOSE WHO LIVE BY THE SWORD, DIE BY THE SWORD ....

And so ...

Yes indeed Livyjr there is "somethin' happenin' here...."

And as you say "What it is... is becoming clear"

"The man with the gun over there is tellin' us all we better beware!"

Is the freedom he is fighting for, be the freedom of the wolf among sheep?

But when the sheep pulls a knife it makes the lambchops harder to get.

The Rose seems to ask to be picked, but it grows the thorn to tell you you are mistaken.

Now we are getting to where the rubber meets the road, alright, TROU ....

But you have one mistaken impression here ....

There are to be no knives among the sheep ....

The sheep are for slaughter ....

The lambchops are for the taking ....

RESISTANCE TO UNCHECKED SUPERIOR LETHAL FORCE IS FUTILE!

That is what the FREEDOM is now about ....

The FREEDOM to TAKE ...

LIBERTY is simply too confining a concept for the MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE to be enforced anymore, especially here in America .....

For LIBERTY ties their hands, and is intended to protect the weak from the strong in America and in the world, as well ...

And it is TO THEM, the MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE, that what used to be OUR military now answers ....

THAT IS WHY THE CODE OF CONDUCT HAS BEEN ALTERED ....

That alteration serves to alter VITAL THOUGHT PATTERNS ....

Especially when taught to 18-year old kids with guns and a lot of libido to work off ....

"YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE DEADLY FORCE IN IRAQINAM, AND THE FREEDOM FROM THE NORMAL LAWS OF CIVILIZED SOCIETY TO DO SO!"

This is what Marine does in the TNG ....

HE INDOCTRINATES PEOPLE WITH THIS BELIEF, WHICH COMES DOWN TO HIM FROM HIS HIGHER COMMAND ....

And Marine does not question POLICY ...

He no longer answers to OUR Constitution ....

He answers to HIS COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, alone ....

FREEDOM ....

FREEDOM FROM THE RESTRAINT OF OUR ORGANIC LAW ...

NOT LIBERTY, NO MORE ...

And there is where the DANGER to OUR nation of America has entered in here ....

IDEOLOGY DRIVES WHAT IS NOW DEFINED AS "PATRIOTISM" ....

In my estimation as a veteran, OUR system here has been greatly perverted by this change in wording ....

And no good for us as a nation can come of that, when RULE OF LAW goes out the window to be replaced by RULE OF GUN ....

FREEDOM ....

Versus LIBERTY ...

They cannot co-exist ....

The one is anti-thetical to the other ....

And so ...

Talk about WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?

Here we all are ...

Marine and his unchecked freedom to use deadly force on any or all of us in the one corner ....

And me, a gimpy old man, in the other ...

How is that old-fashioned corny saying?

I REGRET THAT I HAVE BUT ONE LIFE TO GIVE TO PROTECT THE LIBERTY OF MY NEIGHBORS ....

Something along those lines, anyway ....

And that guy got hung for thinking that way ....

By somebody just like Marine ....

And so ...

Happy Independance Day Livyjr. And to all on God's green earth.

If I had it to do over again, I would give Marine exactly the attention he deserved. None.

Living well is the best revenge.

I wonder who said that?

Oh, yeah, I just did.

And getting back to LIBERTY ...

Which is something that the Vietnamese did not have in THEIR OWN COUNTRY while we were there ....

For those who might just be getting here, I am an older American born at the close of WWII, and who served in Viet Nam as a combat infantryman in 1969 ....

And what I call PATRIOTISM here in America is as follows ....

PATRIOTISM: DEVOTION TO ONE'S COUNTRY ....

- Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary

For CO, who is a Canadian, PATRIOTISM is devotion to her country of Canada ....

For someone in Iraq, PATRIOTISM for them is devotion to Iraq ....

And I have no right as a human being to go up there to Canada with a gun and a bayonet, and tell CO that she must be devoted to America, instead ....

Just as we had no right to go to Viet Nam and tell those people that their devotion had to be to America, and not Viet Nam ....

And that is exactly what we were doing over there ....

And they resisted, JUST AS I WOULD, if CO sent some Canadians down here to tell me that I had to now be devoted to Canada ....

And what really is OUR COUNTRY here in America?

And the answer that I was given as a child here in America at the close of WWII is in these few words, to wit:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

TO THE REPUBLIC ...

Not to the president ....

Not to George W. Bush, OR ELSE ....

Not to the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, because we American people who are not in the military do not have a COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF over us, despite anything to the contrary that Marine might have to say about that in here ....

TO THE REPUBLIC ....

REPUBLIC: a commonwealth; that form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to ALL the citizens ...

Black's Law Dictionary

REPUBLIC: a state in which the sovereignty resides IN THE PEOPLE and the legislative and administrative powers are lodged in officers elected by and representing THE PEOPLE ....

Reader's Digest Great Encyclopedic Dictionary

RULE OF LAW ....

When I talk about being a PATRIOT here in America, that is what I am DEVOTED to - RULE OF LAW ....

ONE NATION, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL ....

When I put on the uniform of a soldier in the United States Army in 1968, that is what I went "ON THE LINE" to protect and defend ...

LIBERTY AND JUSTICE ...

There is AMERICAN PATRIOTISM to me, plain and simple ....

Not FREEDOM for some, and **** everybody else, as it is getting to be now, especially under George W. "DECIDER" Bush, Dick Cheney and the inaptly named "REPUBLICAN" party of America and the world ...

DEVOTION TO ONE'S COUNTRY ....

NOT SUBSERVIENCE TO THE "STATE" AS JOHN McCAIN AND Marine WOULD HAVE IT BE ....

That is FASCISM ....

FASCISM is the ENEMY of LIBERTY ....

The rise of FASCISM in AMERICA will be the death of OUR REPUBLIC ....

So which side are YOU on?

There are only two ....

FREEDOM for some?

Or LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL?

And so ...

And the same to you, TROU ...

You're a pip, Peg ...

The attention Marine deserves is a good swift kick right to where his brain resides at the junction of his two legs ...

Either anteriorally, or posteriorally, same difference ...

It's fairly evenly distributed between ....

And so ...

My country,' tis of thee,

Sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing ....

SWEET LAND OF LIBERTY ....

OF THEE I INDEED SING ....

Twas for you that I put on the uniform of an American soldier ...

And I'm old now ....

Fading away, as old soldiers do ...

BUT STILL ...

LIBERTY AND JUSTICE for ALL is what I personally believe in as an AMERICAN on INDEPENDENCE DAY here in America ...

And the purpose of this thread, from my perspective, anyway, has been to tell the CANDID WORLD out there who I am as an AMERICAN ....

And to define for all of you what I think of when I think of AMERICAN PATRIOTISM ....

Because I think in some small way, it makes a difference ....

Especially to the children who are just now being born ....

WE ARE NOT ALL MONSTERS HERE IN AMERICA ...

SOME OF US ARE IN FACT AS CIVILIZED AS YOU ARE ...

And we would like you to know that ....

We would like you to know that WE HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN what took place back on July 4th, 1776, and why, and what that was to mean to all of you out there ...

It is time for the REAL PEOPLE of America to stand up and take back OUR government from those who have usurped it from us ....

Take it back from those who have changed the essential meaning of who we really are here in America ....

It is time to replace UNTRAMMELED FREEDOM TO DO WHATEVER TO WHOMEVER AT THE POINT OF A GUN WHENEVER with TRUE LIBERTY as it once was known in America, at the close of WWII, which was a war to end FASCIST TYRANNY on the face of the earth forever ....

Not to end it in Germany, and to bring it here, instead ...

Or at least, that is what I was taught when I was young ....

And so ....

Thank you for your time in listening to one old man in America speak out today ...

It feels good to have this off my chest ...

To have these words down on paper in here for posterity ....

Just as the words of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE in 1776 were addressed to the CANDID WORLD ...

And so ...

My country,' tis of thee,

Sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing ....