I would say it's not a good sign for Kaine. I'd definitely move him off the top tier of potential picks.

Sebelius may be rising, but I think she would be a weak choice. She's a lethally dull speaker (probably even makes Bayh look exciting), and there is virtually no chance of her delivering Kansas. You also have to wonder how enthusiastic a lot of female voters would be about her.

I don't think there is any top tier...I think all of them were red herrings, and we are in for a surprise (though surprise with all the names we throw out, most likely won't surprise us), unless
it's a Warren Buffett type.

I still say it will be Gore unless he outright refuses it.

Caroline herself is possible, I think Caroline brings in more than Sebilius does, and there can't possible be an outcry by Hillary women

ESPECIALLY if Teddy dies before Nov.
Remember the one week bounce Bush43 got when Reagan died in 2004? This would resonate even louder as Teddy was a driving force still active up to the end...

So win one for Teddy might indeed be in people's minds

symetry- I love symetry and do not believe in coincidences...
and Caroline is a big Al Gore fan.

The stars are playing in Al's favor though in a way not thought of-
a recent poll showed most Americans are letting the global warming issue recede in their minds due to major greed.
As global warming is the #1 issue whether or not people know it, to remain relevant will take an ever present Al Gore
So they might convince him to do something he don't necessarily want to do just to have the issue remain front and center the next 8 years.

I could be wrong, and this election could be a blowout, but I doubt it. You are being overly optimistic about Obama's support.

I think Sebelius would have been a good pick, but I think it would be seen as a slap in the fact to Hillary.

it don't have to be a blow out
270 is all that is needed. not one more. (Though it would be nice).

Without VA, McCain can't win, there are no states he can pick up to overcome it, and from what you read, he is spending alot of time/money in VA, and he is forgoing places like NJ and many others
So those electoral votes are important for him. And most likely if Obama can win VA, he wins NC too, another slap in the face to McCain.

Don't eliminate Chuck Hagel either. That would be a major slap in McCain's (as would Bloomberg or Powell).

obama picking Warner as the keynote, is already a slap in the face to Hillary, her people wanted her to have that title (and some here thought she was it), so putting Sebilius in the end might offend a few, but pick up more in response. (Obama is already way ahead with women, so it sort of is irrelevant...Hillary's people are less important daily, its not like any dem would win West Virginia or Wyoming, even if Hillary herself was on the ticket.)

Whereas VA elmiinates McCain.

I think the right Dem could win WVa, or at least make it very competitive. Obama has no prayer there, and has long ago written off the state.

I agree with Beamer. Although it's not impossible, I do not expect a blowout.

There's a small but vocal movement in the blogosphere to stop Obama from picking Bayh. I wonder if it will have impact on Obama's decision. With the Russia/Georgia situation, Obama is almost forced to pick someone with more foreign policy credentials than he has. Picking Kaine or Sebelius is not going to happen. It's Bayh or Biden, I think.

if Obama has no prayer, then it won't make a difference who his VP is would it?

Why is a blowout important anyhow? 270 is all that is needed after it is certified.
Over that is just to say nah nah nah but don't matter

It could even be 270-268

especially if the cheating in certain states happens as expected

AFter all, the repubs are doing wonders disenfranchisnig millions of voters, most of them black, all of them Obama voters in certain states.
And the key players who stole Ohio are all working for McCain. If that happens, it won't matter who the vp or president candidate is, it will just happen
(Unless you think the theft people are on Hillary's side of course fix is in type of thing).

the way you yourself rail against the democrats caving in, one would think you would lead the charge against Bayh.
If you want war, he's your man. He and Joe Lieberman are in synch on those issues.
So that is why it leads me to believe you are just tossing his name out to annoy me. Because issue wise it makes no sense, based on all your other posts.

and I would rather have Hillary if you are going to pick a Hillary surrogate.

I think with Dean and the DNC caving in and allowing Bill his own night separate from Hillary, that is enough bones to toss them. Most people expected Bill to introduce Hillary.
And Chelsea gets her own speaking role (God forbid we gotta deal with her running 8 or 12 years from now against Jeb). So alot of people want Bayh less this week than last.
I think Bill's prominent position actually takes Bayh out of the picture.

Don't forget Daschle and don't forget Biden. But foreign policy is not needed in VP, if same people are defense secretary and homeland security and secretary of state.
And the Georgia/Russia situation is over, coincidentally the same time Bush returns home (how convineient to have that alibi for the entire war games). What a friendly flag it was.

I said that he has no prayer in West Virginia. You seem to have thought that I meant overall. That is certainly not the case.

And no, it won't matter who the VP pick is in terms of WVA. I meant that the Dems could be competitive in the state with the right nominee. Obama isn't for that state.

He is though winning at least 5 to 8 states Kerry and Gore did not win.
There is not one blue state McCain is going to win, so this election is the opposite of 2004, when Kerry could not figure out where to get a red state
McCain is the one this time who is having a hard time placing 270.(almost impossible time of it).
If this were actually close, McCain wouldn't have wiped NJ from his thoughts, because NJ has alot of independents. That he is not doing anything here shows its not as close as you think.

If Obama is already leading Indiana, it makes no sense to pick Bayh at all. He can win it without him(thoguh again, he doesn't need Indiana to get 270, states like that just get him way over 300)
Kerry lost indiana by 21, and Gore lost by 16, but if you look it up, Clinton did not win it either time. So Obama competitive there shows something, and it takes away a sure shot red state
for McCain (again, without Bayh's help at all).
Which is why Virginia is more important.

Graham if you were my lawyer and the issue that would find me guilty or innocent would be proving that Evan Bayh was not a good choice for Vice President -- I am afraid that I would be on my way to being found guilty...

You make all these claims Graham -- but when it comes right down to it you back very little up...

Show me evidence of one of the many scandals you accuse Evan Bayh of being a part of...make teh case against Evan Bayh...

Lieberman has never said that the Iraq war was a mistake...Evan Bayh has...so I guess that blows your theory out of the water that Bayh and Lieberman are in line on foreign policy.

Beamer -- that is what the GOP and McCain people are hoping for...its a trap.

The economy is the issue.

The best way for Obama to win is pick some with economic and executive experience...someone who is the best person to serve as president should Obama not be able to --- and someone who is in synch with Obama's policy positions...and would carry on his positions...

yap yap yap yap yap

your opinion is disqualified because you are not independent on this issue

If I were needing a ruling, I would disqualify you from the case, because you are not free of bias here (ala conflict of interest just like that other poster in the past used to have but they was
blown out of the water too)

So that blows your opinion out of the water Capt. Blayh.

Just the 60 senator issue is enough.
IF they pick someone who will lose a seat, it means that BILDEBERGER is wanting the dems not to have the # of senators needed. That simple.

and Kaine did not have the gravitas the experience...Obama needs to pick someone much more experienced...

Bayh fits that mold -- Biden fits that mold and Clark fits that mold -- but Biden and Clark are national security and foreign policy people and FP and NS are areas Obama is confident in himself with so he will go for someone with executive or economic experience -- Clark with the military has executive experience...but not economic...

Obama needs a top economic mind as VP someone like Bloomburg...

I think Bob Rubin might not be a bad choice as VP.

he is dry -- but very sound economically and would get the blessing of the Clinton people...

Graham, why don't you simply disqualify Taz because he disagrees with you and your heroes.

You can persist in stating that the only support something needs is your opinion or that of your heroes. But you cannot expect people here to agree with you. And they are entitled to respect no less than you are. Simply because they commit the crime in making sense and marshalling good arguments against your poor ones does not mean that they deserve personal attacks.

I am your client in the scenario I posed -- you cannot disqualiofy me from my own case...

The Dems are more likely to win the State House in IN with Bayh at the top of the ticket with Obama... so they would not lose a seat in IN my friend. So they would not lose a seat --- they would gain one when the new Dem Governor from IN chooses a Dem to fill the seat....Bayh vacates...which blows your theory out of the water...

Not an independent on the issue?

Since when did being independent on an issue become a precondition for posting on an issue -- you would be disqualified too because you lack independence as well...

And if independence on an issue were a precondition you would be foreclosed from commenting on any Clinton or Bayh issues...

Then you would have nothing to say...

Do you really want to go down that road?

well, now you mention four GOOD people and Bloomberg is the best of all of them(and unlike blayh, who fits NONE of the 5 things Obmaa himself said weeks ago,) Bloomberg fits ALL of them.
(while bad mouthing Kaine)

see, there is life after Capt.Blayh

the only mold Capt.Blayh should fit is the one of enabler.

I for one would burn my American flag if he were named.

No one is making you...

I think one of the reasons for the Russia/Georgia thing was to get McCain some points. To me,
selecting Nunn for VP would be an indication that Obama is willing to keep intact the current
Cheny-Bush-McCain-military-industrial-financial complex because Nunn is a major, major player
in this Network. If Obama intends to make significant change in our Foreign policy, he want pick Nunn.

I really shouldn't say anything, so I am just hinting at it.

Silent neutrality -- I like that...

I am independent.
I answer to no one
I work for no one
I am not professional
I am just a nobody
Seeing things the way they are, and telling it like it is
That's what scares people I have been told. How right on I am.

Didn't I warn people in 2004 about John Edwards? but nobody listened. So I don't expect anyone to listen now.

'cept enough people listened and the mighty Clintons lost
and more and more people have used my term "the fix is in" in regards to them and the Bush's...

c'est la vie. it goes to show you never can tell as Emmylou sang in the old chuck berry song.

Are you serious? You think foreign countries engage in wars for such reasons?



How is Nunn such a major player in that network and how is it a bad thing?

Friendly edit

I do

I think the entire situation in Georgia/Russia was a sham to do a few things

With Bush at the olympics for an alibi, clear as he was in that schoolhouse on 9-11 as an alibi

I mean, how can one not see that?

eyes wide shut redux

And the President of Georgia would have just willy nilly gone ahead and attacked South Ossetia because Bush wanted him to?

He would not have attacked if he did not want something out of it for himself or what he thought was good for Georgia (as wrongheaded as that may have been).

Sure, what do they care about their citizens dying, and the fact that their long sought after goal of uniting with South Ossetia would be all for naught...

Misha is a corrupt punk, can't go into it as a public matter but I'm not guessing. Past behavior tells me he thought he was in a position to strongarm enough support from the west to pull it off. (he's an oligarch put in power by ops on our part)

And who on this site is not just as you are in those respects?

Me, because I happen to disagree with you on Evan Bayh.

I warned people about Edwards as well...when Kerry was seeking to choose him as VP...

But on Evan Bayh you are as biased and lack as much independence as I do...the same is true on the Clinton issue --- you are biased against them -- you may not see that but it is true.

When you start making silly statements like other people are not independent on certain issues and their voices cannot discuss an issue because of a personal bias you open yourself up for the same criticism -- so all I am saying is do not go there unless you want the same scrutiny...

Nunn, senior partner of Nunn-Perry Consulting, still has more influence on how defense dollars
are spent than anyone I know of. At the beginning of the Bush administration, he told Congress,
"I think he's (Rumsfield) very well qualified to serve as Sec. of Defense and I plan to support him."

I thought I had read he was still involved with the MIC --- thanks for the specificity...

More than SECDEF Robert Gates?



Bad judgment there! But if there aren't too many more examples like that I would not worry a whole lot. I would worry more if he had explicitly endorsed some of the more dubious neocon notions, but I would need to hear those specifically.

So are we going to have the Spanish Inquisition here, or the anti-Spanish Inquisition?

I thnk he means outside of the DOD and Pentagon and Bush Adminsitration and perhaps even Congress.





Well, there is also his positon on gays in teh military... but he has apolgized for that I think...

Obama Team Weighs Nunn, Edwards As Running Mates
stumble digg reddit del.ico.us news trust KEN THOMAS | June 20, 2008 03:54 AM EST |

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/20/o...d_n_108215.html

WASHINGTON — Former Sens. John Edwards and Sam Nunn are on a list of potential running mates for Democrat Barack Obama, a congresswoman said Thursday, one day after she met with the team Obama has reviewing possible candidates.

Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, D-Mich., who leads the Congressional Black Caucus, said members of her caucus asked her to forward the names of Edwards and Nunn when she met Wednesday with Obama's vice presidential search team. The team, Caroline Kennedy and Eric Holder, indicated the two were on the list.

"We've been brainstorming in the Congressional Black Caucus. Former Senator Sam Nunn's name has come up, as well as John Edwards' name has come up among our CBC members. I reported that to them and they had both of those names on their list," Kilpatrick said in an interview with The Associated Press.

Kilpatrick said she made several suggestions during the 45-minute meeting, including former Vice President Al Gore, Pennsylvania Rep. John Murtha and Ohio Governor Ted Strickland. Gore endorsed Obama on Monday.

"I asked them what type of person the senator is looking for? And they said in general someone who could help him rebuild the country ... talking about change. How we reinvest in America, get people back to work and reinforce our education system and bring the jobs back," she said.

She declined to say which names were put forth by Kennedy and Holder. The prominent Democratic attorneys have been meeting with lawmakers on Capitol Hill to receive feedback on Obama's potential running mate. Obama has said he won't discuss the process until he's made his choice.

When Kilpatrick said Gore was her personal choice, "they had a smile on their face. They have a list of candidates. I think I may have been the first to do that. They didn't say one way or the other."

But she wasn't the only one to mention Gore.

Rep. Joe Baca, D-Calif., chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, met Wednesday with Kennedy and Holder. A former Clinton supporter, he offered Clinton's name but said he mentioned others, too. Those included Edwards, Sens. Joe Biden and Chris Dodd, Gore, Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius and Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano.

"These are all good names," Baca said. "Ultimately the decision will be up to Obama."

Edwards, a former North Carolina senator who was John Kerry's running mate in 2004, could help Obama appeal to white, working-class voters who largely favored Clinton in the primary and will be a critical voting bloc in the general election. The drawback is that Edwards was the vice presidential nominee on a losing ticket four years ago, while Obama's campaign is about turning the page.

Edwards has said he is not seeking the vice presidency _ but hasn't ruled out accepting if asked.

"I'd take anything he asked me to think about seriously, but obviously this is something I've done and it's not a job that I'm seeking," Edwards said last Sunday on ABC's "This Week."

Nunn would bring national security credentials to the ticket, having served as the longtime Armed Services Committee chairman. The former Georgia senator is a member of Obama's foreign policy advisory group.

But Nunn has not been in office for more than a decade so he is not well-known nationally. He is a conservative Democrat who supported school prayer and opposed gays in the military, while Obama tends to have a more liberal viewpoint. Nunn will turn 70 in September.

Other lawmakers who have been briefed say there about 20 names on the list Obama's team has been discussing. The list includes current elected officials, former elected officials and retired military generals, lawmakers have said.

Kilpatrick said most of the names she was asked about were in the Senate

CNN) — The two senators widely believed to be at the top of Barack Obama's short list for VP have been given prime-time speaking slots at the Democratic convention Wednesday night — the very same night the vice presidential candidate is slated to speak.

According to the Democratic National Convention Committee, both Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh and Delaware Sen. Joe Biden will deliver speeches on national security during the marquee night — the same evening former President Bill Clinton is also scheduled to speak.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, West Virginia Sen. Jay Rockefeller, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, and Colorado Sen. Ken Salazar will also speak Wednesday evening, according to the convention committee.

But Biden and Bayh's appearance especially is sure to heighten speculation one of the two senators will ultimately be named Obama's running mate. The announcement also comes the same day Biden hit the campaign trail for the Illinois senator, accepting an endorsement on his behalf from the International Association of Firefighters in Las Vegas.

I have an observation to make, for what it's worth. This time four years ago, this thread was so rabidly debated that I didn't even like to venture there, although I often did so. There were many posters, several of whom are still here, who posted endlessly about their chosen candidate for Vice President. We had our Edwards camp, a Clark camp, and I forget who else was heavily touted. This time around, at least most of us are discussing the issue with considerable civility.

What do you think is different about this race?

edit to add: Of course, now I remember who I forgot - Graham!!!!!!

Well, the most obvious is that there aren't as many of us to debate it.

And maybe, since it's clear the VP won't be Hillary, there just isn't that much to get excited about, one way or the other. I mean, other than G4A, is anybody really going to get that worked up about Bayh, Biden or Sibelius?

and it should be Graham again.

Most qualified man in history of mankind to be vicepresident

BTW- I was 100% correct on Edwards, you all should listen to me on Bayh.
So were all the Clarkies (and Wes may yet be the VP this time, after all, Wednesday's day at the convention is named after Wes Clark's PAC, so we shall see...

It makes no difference who is VP IF Obama is safe and sound when he retires in 2016...however, if he isn't,
we are doomed.

Except for Bayh and Hillary, I can't recall any other name I would really not be ok with this time.

When one is beaten and whipped for 8 years, any little morsel is better than none (except if its those two).

I just saw this post

This means Wes Clark and Chris Dodd Tom Daschle and Al Gore,Mike Bloomberg, tim Kaine and Kathleen Sebilius are the remaining choices

Under the logic no one is getting two speeches.

Definitely the number of active posters in conjunction with this not being an Official candidates message board would be the two largest reasons I see.

..and since it isn't an official board you don't have 100% full bore support like (for the most part) was on the Kerry board. You have varying degrees of support from avid to undecided which certainly plays a part in it, too.

Now you visit the Obama boards you have the type of debates going on we had here during K/E.

Just tossing you my

I am actually serious on this- Is there an official Obama board? I never actually looked for one, nor really have yet had a desire to for some reason. seriously.

Sure there is - at the official Obama website.

Thanks for the observations!

I didn't get involved in the debates over VP on the Kerry board. Wasn't that interested. And I'm not really that terribly interested this time around, either. VP just generally isn't that big of deal.

Too bad Hillary is obviously out of it, or I imagine the discussions here would be much more heated.

Of the names being bandied about, I'd probably prefer Chet Edwards, but only because he's a good local guy. But he's also a long shot, so there's no real expectation in that regard. The rest of the names being floated wouldn't be very likely to have any impact on my voting decision.

I feel pretty much the same - although I'd like it to be either Biden or Nunn, either would suit. To be honest, the whole convention thing has snuck up on me. This is happening pretty quickly, after the whole election seemed to crawl along for so long.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail...dy_but_bay.html

The New ABB is Anybody but Bayh

By Jonathan Weisman
Just 14 days from now, the vice presidential nominee of the Democratic Party is to take the prime-time stage at the party's convention in Denver and become a key piece of Barack Obama's presidential aspirations and the future of the Democratic Party.

The antiwar left does not want that person to be Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana.

On liberal blogs, on Facebook, and in private, online conclaves, liberal activists are trying to thwart the selection of Bayh, whose support for the invasion of Iraq, mild persona and moderate social politics have raised their fury. They are not wild about the other finalists, either. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joseph R. Biden (D-Del.) was a reluctant supporter of the Iraq war resolution, and Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine has become suspect on the environment for some liberals.

But Bayh has earned their unparalleled animus.

"Now that Joe Lieberman is no longer a Democrat, [Obama] can't pick anyone in the Democratic Party worse than Evan Bayh," fumed Max Bernstein, whose anti-Bayh Facebook page now has 2,186 members.

That's a far cry from the 100,000 his nascent page is shooting for, but the site is not the only focal point of the burgeoning anti-Bayh movement. Ari Melber at the Washington Independent has been busy chronicling Bayh's demerits, including, principally his co-sponsorship of the 2003 congressional resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq and his co-chairmanship of the pro-invasion Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. Others have pointed to his leadership of efforts to ban so-called partial birth abortion, which they say shows that he is willing to go along with anti-abortion canards to burnish his moderate image. Then there are his blow-dried good looks and aw-shucks demeanor -- hallmarks of a career pol they insist could never help Obama actually win Indiana much less the White House.

The liberal, invitation-only Townhouse e-mail list-serve has been buzzing with anti-Bayh ferment of late, especially since Obama is widely expected to name his running mate early next week. But Obama has also shown he is willing to hold the liberal blogosphere at arms length, most recently by ignoring Internet entreaties to abandon support for a compromise bill on warrantless wiretapping.

Still, the left's Bayh fixation may be having an impact. The Bayh buzz has died down a bit. The new media darling appears to be Biden.

No, they wouldn't get two, but if one of them were selected, it would be very easy to juggle the speaking order. This isn't like Hillary, where the speaking spot pretty much guarantees that she won't be it.

Is it actually open (to the same extent possible that Kerry's was?) not bad if it is.
I get into enough trouble here, the Gore board and epu.
Hard to explain.

Strangely, I understand, I think. It's a matter of energy.

I guess you are right.
ABB anybody but Bayh...even Hillary would be better.
I like that there are many others agreeing with me on him.

The whole Bayh thing makes no sense, and with the secrecy of it all, would make no sense to pick the person everyone in the MSM is talking about either.

Only thing that worries me is 1980, when Reagan was in secret trying to get Ford, but once it got into the media,
he wrongly picked Bush41.
If there is a major name going to be picked and its released, will that change thing
and remember 2004, when Gephardt was thought...