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david sobien
As in most wars we can only control what we do. What we do is important if we wish to be considered as the good guys and the defender of right. The whole Iraq thing has tarnished any moral claim we have. How can Bush go to China and complain about their human rights record? The world would laugh.
tazvil04
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 10:53 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 12:07 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 11:48 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 11:34 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 09:04 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:01 AM) *
As usual your post makes no sense...

And your problem with that is...



No problem, just taking care of a situation about a pile of garbage.

So have you taken care of it?



My words "taking care" indicate a work in progress......do they not?

So how's it going?


Rofl2.gif

This is one of the more illuminating subthreads on here... cool.gif
tazvil04
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 12:57 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 02:54 PM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 02:47 PM) *
Why do you ask?

To obtain an answer.

BTW, the only garbage I can take care of is my own. I am not so talented as to dispose of someone else's garbage, although at times I can spot it.



Your questions are trivial and deserve no answer.


So, I guess its no longer a work in progress....why did you give up so easily?
tazvil04
QUOTE(graham4anything @ Aug 5 2008, 09:37 AM) *
http://www.therawstory.com/
Suskind: Bush ordered fake letter linking Iraq to 9/11
08/05/2008 @ 8:46 am
Filed by David Edwards and Nick Juliano


A blockbuster new book from investigative journalist Ron Suskind adds another revelation to the growing canon demonstrating the lengths to which President Bush and members of his administration lied, misled and deceived the American people to pursue its invasion of Iraq.

Advertisement
Bush allegedly ordered the CIA to forge a handwritten letter from the head of Iraq's intelligence service to Saddam Hussein that purported to link the Iraqi dictator to the ringleader of the hijackers who toppled the Twin Towers on 9/11, according to news accounts of Suskind's new book, The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism. Such use of an intelligence service to influence domestic political debate could be an impeachable offense, Suskind writes.

Politico's Mike Allen reports:

According to Suskind, the administration had been in contact with the director of the Iraqi intelligence service in the last years of Hussein’s regime, Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti.

“The White House had concocted a fake letter from Habbush to Saddam, backdated to July 1, 2001,” Suskind writes. “It said that 9/11 ringleader Mohammad Atta had actually trained for his mission in Iraq – thus showing, finally, that there was an operational link between Saddam and al Qaeda, something the Vice President’s Office had been pressing CIA to prove since 9/11 as a justification to invade Iraq. There is no link.” [...]

The author claims that such an operation, part of “false pretenses” for war, would apparently constitute illegal White House use of the CIA to influence a domestic audience, an arguably impeachable offense.
The faked letter was first reported as genuine by the conservative London Sunday Telegraph in December 2003. Right-wing commentators and Bush defenders harped on that disclosure as evidence of Saddam Hussein's involvement in the 9/11 attacks. According to Suskind's book, the CIA had been protecting Habbush in the early months of the invasion; the agency persuaded the Iraqi intelligence chief to write the letter in his own handwriting and paid him $5 million.

CBS White House correspondent Bill Plante reported Tuesday that Suskind's sources had seen a draft of the letter written on White House stationary.

The Way of the World is Suskind's third book on the inner workings of the Bush administration, joining The One Percent Doctrine, which outlined the often extreme anti-terror policies advanced by the likes of Vice President Dick Cheney, and The Price of Loyalty, which painted a picture of the early day's of Bush's presidency with the help of ousted former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill.

Predictably, the White House is unhappy with Suskind's latest offering and the Bush administration is relying on its trademark push-back of insulting the messenger. White House spokesman Tony Fratto insulted Suskind, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his work with the Wall Street Journal, as a practitioner of "gutter journalism," and called the allegations "absurd."

Suskind appeared Tuesday on NBC's Today Show for interviews about the latest book.

This video is from NBC's Today Show, broadcast August 5, 2008.





« Bush lampooned as snake oil salesman | Main | Joey Cheek's visa flap over Darfur puts President Bush in sticky position »

Did Dick Cheney give Bush plausible deniability?


Dick Cheney was an assistant at the White House when Watergate was unfolding. By the time the scandal forced Richard Nixon to resign the presidency in 1974, the young Wyoming Republican had returned to the private sector. The new president, Gerald Ford, called him back. Cheney became deputy to Chief of Staff Donald Rumsfeld, seen here on right when the two were named on Nov. 7, 1975. And when Rummy left (to run the Pentagon, but that's another story), Ford promoted Cheney. At 34, Richard Bruce Cheney became the youngest person ever to serve as White House chief of staff.

In his new book "The Way of the World," author Ron Suskind argues that Cheney concluded from his perch at the White House during those years that Nixon fell not because of his abuse of government -- he asked agencies such as the IRS and the FBI to shadow his enemies. Or because of the break-in of the Watergate offices of the Democratic National Committee by criminals with ties to CREEP (The Committee To Re-Elect the President). Or even because of the cover-up.

Suskind believes Cheney concluded that Nixon had been "overbriefed" and that his aides had failed to give him "plausible deniability." And so, a la Suskind, that is what Cheney set out to give George W. Bush.

Asked about it last night on Keith Olberman's "Countdown" on MSNBC, John Dean, White House counsel in the Nixon presidency, said Cheney has been so successful at this that it will prevent impeachment proceedings against Bush.

"Cheney's been very effective in setting up his deniability and always being the failsafe for Bush. Unless they start waterboarding the vice president, which it not too likely, he is the man, the trail ends right there."

Dean, the one who told Nixon there was "a cancer on the presidency," was convicted of obstruction of justice and admitted supervising hush payments to the break-in defendants. The author of a book called "Worse Than Watergate," Dean argues that the sins of the earlier Nixon era "didn't kill anyone," whereas those of the current administration include torture and war.

-- Johanna Neuman

Photo: Harvey Georges /Associated Press

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/presidentb...e-iraq-doc.html

Arneoker
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 7 2008, 09:58 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 10:53 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 12:07 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 11:48 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 11:34 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 09:04 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:01 AM) *
As usual your post makes no sense...

And your problem with that is...



No problem, just taking care of a situation about a pile of garbage.

So have you taken care of it?



My words "taking care" indicate a work in progress......do they not?

So how's it going?


Rofl2.gif

This is one of the more illuminating subthreads on here... cool.gif

Now that is a scary statement!
Arneoker
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 6 2008, 11:04 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 6 2008, 10:15 AM) *
QUOTE(david sobien @ Aug 5 2008, 06:43 PM) *
I think that there are a lot more war crimes then the press or the military discloses. We only see what they tell us or what someone is willing to speak about. I think the truth will come out over the next few years as it always does. There are always people who witness crimes and then come clean about them years later to clear their conscience. Meanwhile I will look at people who served in Iraq and wonder.

I think you are right, but I still think that most soldiers in Iraq act honorably. Many of them have probably seen stuff that is pretty damn sickening, if not what you could fairly call war crimes.

What would you consider a war crime Arne? How about shooting at somebody with a 37mm AAA cannon while they was hanging helpless in a parachute harness?

Just why are you trying to provoke an argument with me? My main point was to soften the harshness of what David said, saying that most soldiers do not commit war crimes.

Are you trying to make the argument that no soldier in Iraq has committed a war crime? That would seem to be unlikely in the extreme. But if that is what you think I would say that you ought to make that clear.
tazvil04
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 7 2008, 08:51 AM) *
QUOTE(tazvil04 @ Aug 7 2008, 09:58 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 10:53 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 12:07 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 11:48 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 11:34 AM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 5 2008, 09:04 AM) *
QUOTE(Mac2 @ Aug 5 2008, 09:01 AM) *
As usual your post makes no sense...

And your problem with that is...



No problem, just taking care of a situation about a pile of garbage.

So have you taken care of it?



My words "taking care" indicate a work in progress......do they not?

So how's it going?


Rofl2.gif

This is one of the more illuminating subthreads on here... cool.gif

Now that is a scary statement!


laugh.gif
Marine
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 7 2008, 09:55 AM) *
QUOTE(Marine @ Aug 6 2008, 11:04 PM) *
QUOTE(Arneoker @ Aug 6 2008, 10:15 AM) *
QUOTE(david sobien @ Aug 5 2008, 06:43 PM) *
I think that there are a lot more war crimes then the press or the military discloses. We only see what they tell us or what someone is willing to speak about. I think the truth will come out over the next few years as it always does. There are always people who witness crimes and then come clean about them years later to clear their conscience. Meanwhile I will look at people who served in Iraq and wonder.

I think you are right, but I still think that most soldiers in Iraq act honorably. Many of them have probably seen stuff that is pretty damn sickening, if not what you could fairly call war crimes.

What would you consider a war crime Arne? How about shooting at somebody with a 37mm AAA cannon while they was hanging helpless in a parachute harness?

Just why are you trying to provoke an argument with me? My main point was to soften the harshness of what David said, saying that most soldiers do not commit war crimes.

Are you trying to make the argument that no soldier in Iraq has committed a war crime? That would seem to be unlikely in the extreme. But if that is what you think I would say that you ought to make that clear.

No Arne, I'm trying to point out that war crimes are committed by other countries too. Your not suppose to fire a weapon over .50 caliber at soft targets but a bunch a Cubans had no qualms about trying to paste me with a 37 mm cannon whilst I was hanging in the air about 400 feet off the ground. Bad stuff happens when you are in a war, they make rules but a lot a times the rules get broke.
Arneoker
Marine, I am the last person who would say that only Americans commit war crimes. Breast beating about my moral superiority over my fellow countrypeople by making the patently absurd claim that we are guilty of most of the evil in the world is not for me. Besides being repugnant such "moral" preening leads to fatally flawed analysis likely to harm the more unfortunate people living in the rest of the world that it is noisily supposed to help.

No, our guys are hardly the only guilty ones (the few of them who actually engage in such crimes, that is). And I would wager that a lot of others are positively encouraged by their governments or ringleaders (or "emergent leaders" if you will) to engage in fearsome atrocities.

So maybe you have a beef on this, but it is not with me. We have plenty of other things to argue about.
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