What is wrong with public education? Is it NCLB? Is it dumb teachers—as some like to insinuate? Is it the asinine false belief in the “Feminization of our Public Schools” that has crippled the poor boys of America (What a load!)? Is it—blah, blah, blah?

Look inward to find the answers! There are plenty of things that I can do to improve my teaching; however, this does not occur if I do not evaluate myself. There are so many people that want to blame one particular area…there are so many areas that need attention that it boggles the mind to try and find a starting place. To read about inadequate teachers being the greatest cause of failure is annoying as hell—especially when it comes from people that do not have an inkling of an idea as to what it is like to be a teacher.

In my overloaded classes, I have these wonderfully bright kids that make up the majority of the classroom. These students do their best to learn what I teach so that they do well in my class; their behavior usually crosses content areas. Unfortunately, although these students are the majority, they are not the only students.

The overheard few that take pride in derailing the classroom have no care that they are harming the education of the majority—why should they? These kids have no care because they are not taught to. I see it with my own brother; his kids do whatever they want and have little to no consequences for their actions. He hollers at them and promises punishments that never come. Here is the funny part—when his kids get in trouble at school—they attack the teacher and blame him/her. Off they go like defense attorneys to defend their sinless flock—it is the teacher’s fault that their child broke school rules! America—get a grip, not a gripe! Parents should evaluate themselves as well.

My suggestion is to make time to involve yourself in your child’s education; it is an effort you will not regret. Yes, there are plenty of teachers that need to improve; however, I know this for a fact—most of us are educators because we love teaching. Why would we go into this line of work if that is not true—for the rotten salary? Our pay is terrible—yet I have no intention of quitting. Please, quit listening to George W. Bush about education reform; it boggles the mind to mention the two in the same breath.

NCLB is a rotten mess, but I can work around it better if I have parents that cooperate. Overzealous people that want to raise the standards of education might have the best intentions, but they are right up there with NCLB as a resident thorn in the side. I want education to be comprehensible—not impossible. If a kid is able to take harder classes—great—let her/him take them. Let us not force every child to aspire to add his or her name to a new scientific theory.
Here is an outline for a positive education bill:

• Set a limit of 30 kids per class
• Have the law set equality as a main catalyst
• No band aids (vouchers, privatization)
• Parental involvement as a requirement
• Discipline for the unruly
• Last but not least—a new president that displays intelligence
Of course there are more problems, but that is a good starting point. If parents and teachers work together, we can fend off the rightwing agenda and provide the comprehensive education that the Supreme Court guarantees every American citizen

Kboun:

Great post for a 'newbie' Welcome to the forum, hope we can work together to change things in the future, and not the way Shrub wants them changed

Noonan:
Thanks for the welcome! I was a major poster on the old forum; however, I have been in the doghouse for awhile. The reality of 4 more years of Shrub the Grub has left me quite bitter. "Move On" should be renamed:"Trudge on for four more rotten years of terrible leadership", but I guess brevity does count for something. All jokes aside, I hope to work with you as well.

kboun

kboun, you need to be cloned! My kids had some wonderful teachers during their PS days, and some not so wonderful. Teachers like you make all the difference. Your students and their parents are truly blessed. My sincere thanks!

Excellent summary of the situation! One of the first problems with NCLB is the premise that educational achievement is quantifiable. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with standardized testing, but there is something wrong about using it as THE measure of a student's achievement, and hence the school's effectiveness. As a practical matter a high school student should be able to calculate the square yardage of carpeting needed for a room, or do a quick time and distance formula by the time he or she graduates. But, raising standards does not necessarily mean that all children will benefit from requiring Plane Geometry items be answered correctly on the score sheet.

Local citizens need to take back control of their local school districts, especially in regard to the curriculum. Otherwise, what is tested will be what is taught. There are some school districts that should be offering African American studies as a core part of the curriculum, others should be concentrating on Hispanic studies, just as others may need more emphasis on agricultural economics. Right wing radicals have attacked local schools who purchase texts that give W.E.B. DuBois equal time with James Madison, or that "don't mention Washington enough." They've put the skids under attempts to improve mathematics education, and their lobbying against adequate health education (including sex/gender studies) is all but unconscionable. Equating Creationism with science is not education, it's indoctrination.

Granted that some programs for "thinking skills" may not have been all that was promised, but the Radical Right's characterization of critical thinking skills curricula was enough to label it "touchy-feely-politically-correct-liberal-hippie-and Heaven Knows What." A "fact-based" curriculum devoid of practice in recognizing bias, identifying propaganda, and critical reading skills is one that gives students only half an education.

The solutions offered by the current administration are worse than the alleged disease. Vouchers are a cruel joke. The standard argument is that they take much needed funds from public education. That's not all the story. Since most schools that take vouchers are in metropolitan areas, it's the rural areas that get to spend their tax dollars educating students in urban schools. And, for parents in urban areas there is no guarantee that their tax dollars will be spent on their children. Charter schools may be a partial answer, however, would the Radical Right be supporting of the hypothetical "Charter Academy of Diversity and Multi-Cultural Studies?" Who would stand for the "Charter Academy of Racial Purity?"

We will be a civilized nation the day we:
1. Take the advice to limit class sizes.
2. Recognize that education is not an expense, it's an investment.
3. Take heed that building school facilities is a matter of civic pride, not just a matter of warehousing facilities constructed by the lowest bidder.
4. Make employers aware that allowing parents to attend school conferences and meetings is just as necessary as excusing them for jury duty.
5. Pay as much attention to who's running for School Board seats as who's running for the Senate.

Good summary! I am an administrator at a public school in Texas. We are top rated, not just in Texas, but a Blue Ribbon National rating. We are mostly minority, have over 100 ESL (English as a Second Language) students and our kids do very well.

First, in Texas, we have guaranteed class size limits of 22 in the primary grades (pre-K through 4th grade). Also, at my school, we have made parent conferences mandatory at least twice a year. (We hold the report card hostage if the parent doesn't come.) Parental involvement does help, but I have to say it, after 30 years in public education, good teaching is still the key to excellence. We provide lots of support to our new, or alternative certified teachers, to the extent of pairing them with a master teacher who provides their lesson plans for the first year. We do extensive, ongoing work on the curriculum. In Texas, our test, the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills is based on the state curriculum. So, to those who say we are "teaching the test", we just smile and say, "no, we are teaching the curriculum."

We do extensive training with our teachers on preventive discipline, using positive, proactive strategies, but we still find discipline to be one of the biggest issues. If children aren't paying attention, they can't learn. Unfortunately, the only recourse we have is counseling the student, a "time-out" in the office, and calling the parents, many of whom don't follow through at home. Major offenses involve suspension from school, usually for a day. The major offenses in the last year have included: threats (I'm gonna bring a gun to school and kill, chop you up and put you in the mulch pile), assaults, usually just hitting, and bringing knives to school. This is an elementary school, mind you. For most students, the discipline we use is effective, as long as the parent cooperates. Unfortunately, though, we have many whose parents could care less. Sending them home for the day involves them being unattended while the parents work, watching inappropriate TV and movies, and playing video games and eating junk food. Some punishment, huh? So, we struggle all the time to get parents to cooperate with us. Many times, though, we hear things like, "No one is going to tell my child what to do." What??? I've taken to telling them the cold hard facts of life: Your child is going to be told what to do, every day, for the rest of his life. If you don't do what your boss says, you get fired.
If you don't cooperate with your spouse, relationships don't last. If the IRS requires you pay taxes, and you don't, you get fined or go to jail. If the policeman tells you to stop, and you don't, these days, they would just as soon shoot you as determine your intent. But, it is amazing to me that so many of these parents don't seem to understand what it takes to live in civilized society.

But, bottom line schools must be accountable, teachers must strive constantly to improve their teaching, parents need to be involved, but parental involvement isn't a panacea. If there is poor teaching or poor administration, all parental involvement can do is to ask for changes, which usually take more time than our kids have to waste. Parents, and citizens, need to be involved on the state and local level first, helping to choose curriculum, set teacher standards, and working to fund the schools.

Here's an example of what happened at my high school:

My high school, which has had the best standardized test scores in the state two out of the past four years, failed the No Child Left Behind thing for the second year in a row.

Every subgroup must meet proficiency standards. My school, which has the second highest population in the state, has not been able to meet the standards because a single subgroup has failed to meet the standards.

My school is overwhelmingly white, and the subgroups go into all kinds of minorities and such. For a subgroup to be counted in Michigan, there must be at least 30 students included. There are no minority subgroups that have 30 students at my school. The only subgroup we have is "students with disabilities" aka mentally handicapped. There are 38 "students with disabilities" at my school. Of these 38 students, only four were able to pass the state tests.

Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. My school is punished because it has a very large population (~550 seniors), and therefore a high population of students with disabilities. How the hell is the average high school with a class of 250 students going to have 30 mentally handicapped students?

The intentions the to NCLB act may have been good, but the bottom line is that it doesn't farking work. I read in my newspaper that many of the top high schools in some of the wealthiest areas of Metro Detroit were not able to meet NCLB standards because of a single subgroup who couldn't meet ridiculous standards, such as having mentally handicapped teenagers score the same as the average high school student.

From another post in the same thread as above post:

I know what dsmo is saying. The middle school where my dad teaches just failed because *1* student did not attend school *1* too many days. And because of that, the whole school is now in jeopardy. The result of failing? They fire or move all the teachers. And replace them from where?? The good school in the middle-class white suburb around the corner in the county? Oh, right, and those lily white teachers who teach there are going to go? Most of them are of retirement age (but continue to teach because in their school the kids are motivated). They'd rather leave the system than be told to move schools because the city slum school failed. So now you've fired all the teachers that were *willing* to teach at the crappy school. You've forced the rest into retirement. And now what? Nothing. There's *nothing* in the bill to fix that situation...no extra money for hiring new teachers, not a single answer for "what next, George".

Asshats. Every author of that bill and every signee is an asshat.

It does not help that kids in other countries go to school everyday of the week, including weekends. Spend time drilling students in math, science and other subjects. I spent four months over in France. There education system is so much more rigid than ours. Is it any wonder why people in other countries out preform our students?

Throwing money at this problem might help and it might not help it. As one professor in one of my classes mentioned a long time ago. No matter where the education takes place: in a building or outside in a field, learning will take place.


Perhaps it's because we spend too much time on standarized testing. Teachers spend so much time teaching to the test, they never get around to actually teaching curiculum. It's extremly frustrating. I agree we do need to measure the preformance of our students but how do we do this without disrupting curiculum.


Needless to say our European and Asian counterparts spend much more time in school than we do and work hard on educating their students in Math and Science. We need to up our schooling, the time spent in school and the time spent teaching math and science. The current school system allows a lot of students to pass up on Math and science courses to allow them to take...pardon my lanaugae on this a lot of dumbed down and watered down courses in math and science. Of course I am talking about secondary schools and I probably haven't scratched the surface on our elementary school system. Yet we need to do something about the dumbing down of our school textbooks and school curculum.

When I was in High school I automatically took honors courses because the information taught in regular textbooks was so boring and dumb and I could have breezed through high school so easily if I submitted to a lazy desire of easy courses. Yet I challenged myself, at least in the subjects I didn't have problems with. Yet how many students actually push themselves to do better in school and are willing to take higher level classes?

Not only must the learning disabled and handicapped population pass the test, but we are given one year, that's right, one year, to teach enough English to students who come from other countries, then they must pass the test. I'd like for the No Child Left Behind authors to go to Macedonia and take the test in the Cyrillic alphabet within one year. (That's a real little girl's situation, from my school.)

My little brother goes to a special ed school but my family is friends with a mother who has a boy that is mainstreamed. She tried to get him into a high school and the high school basically said no way. I have a hunch that NCLB was behind that decision. She went to another school and asked them and they said, "Okay." NCLB can be such a bad thing for minorty students and the learning and hadicapped disabled students.

Actually Federal Law, under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act supports inclusion for students with disabilities under the provision of least restrictive environment. It's civil rights legislation that most people don't know about. It's one of the many places where federal law is not being supported by No Child Left Behind.
It is the right of every student to be educated with the mainstream population to every extent possible.

Recalling my school days of the distant past, I remember very clearly the discipline that was maintained in the classrooms. There was no horseplay & noisy disruptive outbursts, classes were orderly and students very attentive to the teacher. One of the driving motivations for this was every student knew that misbehavior could result in being sent to the Principal's office & the Principal always kept a 2" wide Razor Strap on top of his desk to maintain discipline. This probably is not an acceptable practice today but in the days of yesteryear in was quite effective.

I am well aware of the IDEA act. My little brother could never function at a regular school so I am greatfull that his least restircted environment is at a special ed school along with his peers where the focus is on skills based assement. His educational test is based on whether he can shread so many reams of paper, can walk independantly in a store and other such based assesments.

As for the mother I know, I support her decision of having a boy in the inculsonary process, because it meets with what he needs in his least resticted environment. I just couldn't believe my ears when she told us that her son couldn't go to the local school, a few blocks away. I was so surprized that they wouldn't let her boy go to school at the neighborhood school. BTW it's the same High School I went to growing up. He had to go to another school that was further away and is a regualr general ed school. It just doesn't make much sense.

I taught students like your brother for 18 years. I'm glad your family is happy with his placement, and I wish you all the best. I just wish the other student could also have an education at the local school that meets his needs. That is what the law, and the human heart, call for, every child meeting his potential in his own community.

My wife is a 3rd grade public school teacher. We agree on most things. We debate on others. I do think we need education reform, but in the opposite direction of what the right-wingers are pushing.

1) Reform needs to be done by teachers, and advised by business lobby, not the reverse.
2) Teach more creative skills and less technical skills.
3) Teachers need technology training, not the students.
4) More computers in classrooms and less books, but not until teachers know the technology.
5) More specialist to help teachers with specialized learning.
6) More activity, less testing so teachers can teach more concepts and less teaching to the test.
7) Reallocate funds so class sizes and facilities are consistent in every community, rich and poor.
8) Let teachers have more say in how they should be spending their time.

I don't think kids are ready for much of what they are taught depending on the age. Even if the kids can learn the information enough to pass a test, they may not be interested in the subject matter enough to be pro-active with their learning. Kids like to apply what they learn immediately or they lose interest. They also get burned-out on learning things they don't think they will be using around the time of high school. High school especially should have more fun activities that get them involved in things that adults think they should know like politics and social studies. High school should be much more interactive than direct instruction.

I have ideas that may be too bold, but they are just ideas.
1) Teach mostly concepts like language, science, math and economics in elementary.
2) Teach mostly social sciences and history in middle school. Mostly remedial elementary skills.
3) Teach mostly government and applications in high school. Allow for more electives for other skills.

As we continue to discuss standards, accountability, and NCLB as a whole, I just want to remind everyone that setting rigid standards has certain drawbacks.

Although we can write some decently applicable standards for math and language, drawing up national standards for science is not a wise idea. We need to let states decide what content should be taught.

Here in Florida, we have so many unique fields that one can study. The Everglades offers an enormous selection of various animals and vegetation for students to learn about. Our waterways are as interesting as they are plentiful. But other states have their own interesting things to study.

I mean, why would any other state want to teach students about Biscayne aquifer? Students in tornado prone areas would be better off learning about tornados than hurricanes. I am not saying that I think our students should not learn about areas that are not specific to his or her home state--just that we should focus mostly on what is prevalent within our home states.

We will be a civilized nation the day we:
1. Take the advice to limit class sizes.
2. Recognize that education is not an expense, it's an investment.
3. Take heed that building school facilities is a matter of civic pride, not just a matter of warehousing facilities constructed by the lowest bidder.
4. Make employers aware that allowing parents to attend school conferences and meetings is just as necessary as excusing them for jury duty.
5. Pay as much attention to who's running for School Board seats as who's running for the Senate.

Thanks for the input Sagehen! I think this cuts to the heart of the matter. It really isn't "NCLB Funding" that is the problem (as it appears this board promotes vis a vis the first major forum subheading under this Education topic); it's the whole concept that nationalized programs forcing top down control over schools can solve 'problems' that may not really exist in the first place. I can't think of too many pro-education people that would oppose any of the five 'goals' I quoted above. none of them would be really solved by increasing the funding to NCLB.
I've stated before, my school is like many of the others people have described. We 'failed' for the first time last year because one measure of one special education section of the test was 1% lower than allowed. Despite this, we have far exceeded the state and federal measures for what a school should be meeting, and we are the highest scoring school in our conference, despite being in one of the most fiscally conservative areas.
It's not the schools that are necessarily broke, its the whole testing system that is. I believe NCLB is unconstitutional, it's in violation of Amendments 9 & 10. It frustrates me that states aren't challenging this in court.

"To read about inadequate teachers being the greatest cause of failure is annoying as hell—especially when it comes from people that do not have an inkling of an idea as to what it is like to be a teacher."
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I agree Kboun! These same people also think teachers are paid too much. What a crock! To get a credential to teach now takes five years and beginning teachers salary isn't enough to live on. I feel sorry for the new teachers. We havn't had a cost of living raise in three years and have to pay an additional amount each month for our health insurance which at one time, (many years ago) was negotiated between union and administration. We gave up salary increases for years and they paid the group health care benefits. Well now we're digging into our own pockets to make up for the increases in our health insurance and still no raise. The topics that need to be addressed seem to be multiplying. Our District has cancelled the last two negotiation sessions claiming, "The District is not comfortable making any kind of financial offer at this time." We are having a General Membership meeting January 13th and are in crisis mode!

Hi!

On August 2, 2004 I began the 24th year of my teaching career. The first seven years I taught ninth through twelth grades. The remainder of my career has been devoted to middle school, specifically eighth grade science. I love my job, but believe me when I tell you that you have to love teaching or you will not survive a career in it. I have seen many changes - the one that most directly concerns me is the FCAT. I am not opposed to student testing, and I think we should have standards, and I believe we should be accountable. However, with the exception of the third grade and graduating seniors, students themselves are not held accountable for their scores on the FCAT. At all other grade levels, there are no incentives for students to do the best that they can on the test. Yet each school receives a "grade" based on their students' performance. What is even more bizarre is that we don't look at how much progress each student makes from year to year, but we compare different groups of students to each other. Every group will have different strengths and weaknesses. At first we only tested students in writing, mathematics and reading. We now have an FACT science test. According to the Pupil Progression Plan in my county (Levy), a student can make it all the way through middle school and never pass a science class. Yet, we are going to be held accountable for how they perform on the science FCAT.

As concerned as I am about some of the problems we have that are specific to Florida, the federal No Child Left Behind really has me worried. It's obvious that whoever put this idea on paper is out to destroy the public school system in our country. Having taught as long as I have, I KNOW that every child learns differently and they will not all be able to read on grade level. It will not be the teachers fault, it will not be anybody's fault. I've had students in my classes that have had IQ's in the 70's. They have been tested for learning disabilities, but do not qualify for any special program because they are doing about the best that they will ever be able to do. Some of them work really hard, but they just don't "get it". NCLB tells us that EVERY child should be capable of doing what every other child is capable of doing. That is an impossible goal, and I think that the writers of NCLB knew that going in.

I would like to say a few things about homeschooling. I have had the opportunity to teach students who are coming from this alternative back into public school. Some of the students are awesome, and they were extremely fortunate to have their parents or others to help them acquire the skills and core knowledge that they bring to a public school classroom. However, I have had just as many homeschoolers come into my classroom that were so far behind in knowledge, skills, social skills, organization, discipline, etc., that it was obvious that there was a lot more "home" going on than there was "schooling". Parents can get away with this because there is very little oversight of these homeschoolers at the county level.

I know that public schools and their teachers are not perfect, but neither are the students we teach or their parents. It works best when parents, students, and teachers take an equal amount of responsibility in the process.

God Bless,
TammyJo58

TammyJo, you make many good points.

As a parent, I agree that the kids have no reason to try and do well on the FCAT or any other
standardized testing- other than to do well enough not to be held back a grade. There is just no incentive for those who are actually being tested to do well- it's crazy !

My son is academically gifted and he thinks the FCAT is a joke- so do his friends. I get the impression that they do not even try to do their best on the test- they could care less. In fact, they hate it because it takes away from the teachers' time to actually teach something other than "to the test."

The Bush (Jeb & GW) answer to education reform is all wrong.