piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 07:30 AM
AFP: Russian troops enter South Ossetia after Georgia offensive
by Michael Mainville 40 minutes ago
A Russian army convoy entered South Ossetia on Friday and Russian planes attacked a Georgian military base, reports said, after Georgian forces pounded the capital of the breakaway province and warned of "war" if Russia intervened.
Amid spiralling tensions, Moscow threatened retaliation after Russian forces in the beleaguered city of Tskhinvali were reported killed in a night-time Georgian artillery and air barrage.
Dozens of Russian tanks and military vehicles headed for the four-kilometre (2.5 mile) Roki tunnel, which leads into South Ossetia , an AFP reporter at the frontier said.
Russia's three main news agencies said a convoy had crossed into South Ossetia.
"We cannot allow the deaths of our countrymen to go unpunished. The guilty parties will receive the punishment they deserve," Russia President Dmitry Medvedev said earlier.
Georgia's National Security Council warned however that there would be "a state of war" between the two countries if the Russian military convoy entered the rebel region, which gets strong backing from Moscow.
Russian aircraft meanwhile launched an attack on a military base near Tbilisi, Georgian interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili told AFP.
Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili warned of "large-scale military intervention" and ordered a mass mobilisation.
He said his country's operation had been successful and "most of South Ossetia's territory is liberated and is controlled by Georgia."
Georgia's Foreign Minister Ekaterine Tkeshelashvili told the BBC that Tbilisi was appealing to world leaders to press Moscow to stop "direct military aggression" on its territory, .
South Ossetia broke from Georgia in the early 1990s and has since been a constant source of friction between Georgia and Russia. The Georgian government accuses Moscow of wanting to take over South Ossetia.
At least 15 civilians were killed in the fighting and Georgian shelling and air raids on Tskhinvali, South Ossetian officials said.
A Georgian officer said there were also wounded and dead among the Georgian military but declined to give figures.
The Russian military said Russian peacekeepers in Tskhinvali had been killed when Georgian shells hit their barracks, Russia's Interfax news agency reported.
The International Committee of the Red Cross called for a "humanitarian corridor" to be opened in South Ossetia to allow ambulances to evacuate the wounded.
"Ambulances cannot move, hospitals are reported to be overflowing, surgery is taking place in corridors," a spokeswoman told journalists in Geneva.
People are sheltering in their basements with no electricity or access to communications, she added.
"This morning, a UNHCR staff member reported that many buildings and houses have been destroyed and that only military personnel are moving on the streets," spokesman Ron Redmond said.
"Water is also in short supply -- a chronic problem, worsened by recent events -- most transport has stopped and shops are running out of food," he added.
"As a result of the hours-long shelling of Tskhinvali by heavy weaponry, the city is almost totally destroyed," General Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeeping forces, was quoted as saying by Interfax news agency.
Tbilisi Mayor Gigi Ugulava told Rustavi-2 television that Georgia would declare a three-hour ceasefire to let people leave the conflict zone.
During the night, an AFP reporter saw Georgian forces fire over a dozen missiles towards South Ossetia from a position in Georgia and witnessed helicopters and hundreds of soldiers in trucks moving towards the region.
The reporter also saw two planes firing at targets near Tsinkhvali.
Georgian officials said Russian aircraft had entered Georgian airspace twice and bombed the cities of Gori and Kareli, while Georgia's Rustavi-2 television reported a Russian plane had been shot down in South Ossetia.
In Moscow, a foreign ministry spokesman denied that Russian aircraft were attacking Georgia and said no plane had been shot down, telling AFP the allegations were "rubbish."
The United States called for "an immediate end to the violence," adding to calls from the European Union and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) for a ceasefire in South Ossetia.
But the United Nations failed to agree on a Russian statement urging Georgia and the rebels to halt the fighting.
Vladimir Putin, the former Russian president and now its influential prime minister, condemned Georgia's "aggressive actions" and said his country would have to retaliate.
"They have in effect begun hostilities using tanks and artillery," Putin said in Beijing where he attended the Olympics opening ceremony. "It is sad, but this will provoke retaliatory measures."
Putin said he had discussed the crisis with Chinese leaders and with US President George W. Bush. "Everybody agrees -- nobody wants to see a war."
He said Russian volunteers were ready to fight in South Ossetia and that it would be difficult to hold them back, according to his spokesman.
Russia called a special meeting of the UN Security Council which expressed concern over the fighting but could not agree on a Russian statement urging the warring sides to renounce the use of force.
In recent months, Moscow and Tbilisi have sparred repeatedly over South Ossetia and another breakaway Georgian region, Abkhazia.
Georgia's pro-Western government accuses Moscow of seeking to annex the two regions and derail its efforts to join the transatlantic NATO alliance, which Russia vehemently opposes.
The Georgian offensive came within just hours of reports that Georgian and South Ossetian officials agreed to meet Friday for talks and the declaration of a unilateral ceasefire by the Georgian president.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080808/ts_af...st_080808124612
piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 07:33 AM
AP: Georgian army moves to retake South Ossetia
By MUSA SADULAYEV, Associated Press Writer
4 minutes ago
Georgian troops launched a major military offensive Friday to regain control over the breakaway province of South Ossetia, prompting a furious response from Russia — which vowed retaliation and sent a column of tanks into the region.
The fighting was the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de-facto independence in a war that ended in 1992 — raising fears that war could once again erupt.
Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said a convoy of Russian tanks had crossed into South Ossetia from the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia and was moving toward the regional capital of Tskhinvali.
Russia's Channel 1 television earlier showed Russian tanks that it said had entered South Ossetia. The report said the convoy was expected to reach the provincial capital within a few hours.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has warned that the Georgian attack will draw retaliation and the Defense Ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.
Georgian forces also shot down two Russian combat planes, according to Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman, Shota Utiashvili. He said the planes were downed while they were raiding Georgian territory, but wouldn't give their type or any further details.
Russia's Defense Ministry denied an earlier Georgian report about one Russian plane downed. It had no immediate comment on the latest claim.
An Associated Press reporter saw tanks and other heavy weapons concentrating on the Russian side of the border with South Ossetia. Some villagers were fleeing into Russia.
"I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village," said Maria, who gave only her first name. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated.
Separatist officials in South Ossetia said 15 civilians had been killed in fighting overnight. Georgian officials said seven civilians were wounded in bombing raids by Russia.
Putin, in Beijing to attend the Olympic opening ceremony, also said an unspecified number of the peacekeepers have been wounded.
Georgia declared a three-hour cease-fire to allow civilians to leave Tskhinvali. Georgia's Interior Ministry spokesman said troops were observing the cease-fire, which began at 3 p.m. local time (7 a.m. EDT).
A spokesman for President Bush said Russia and Georgia should cease hostilities and hold talks to end the conflict. NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said he is seriously concerned about the fighting and that the alliance is closely following the situation.
Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. The country has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow.
Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia.
South Ossetia officials said Georgia attacked with aircraft, armor and heavy artillery. Georgian troops fired missiles at Tskhinvali, an official said, and many buildings were on fire. The city's main hospital was among the buildings hit by Georgian shelling, the Russian news agency Interfax said.
The International Committee of the Red Cross said it is seeking to open a humanitarian corridor to guarantee safe access to Tskhinvali. Maia Kardova, ICRC spokeswoman in Tbilisi, said military vehicles are being given priority on the main road leading to the South Ossetia capital and this is making it difficult for rescue vehicles to get through.
Georgia's President said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.
"A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia," Saakashvili said in a televised statement.
He also announced a full military mobilization with reservists being called into action.
Seven civilians were wounded when three Russian Su-24 jet bombers flew into Georgia and bombed the town of Gori and the villages of Kareli and Variani, Deputy Interior Minister Eka Sguladze said at a briefing.
She said that four Russian jets later bombed Gori, the hometown of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, but that raid didn't cause any casualties.
Saakashvili urged Russia to immediately stop bombing Georgian territory. "Georgia will not yield its territory or renounce its freedom," he said.
A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.
Russia's Defense Ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a "dirty adventure." "Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience," the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site.
"We will protect our peacekeepers and Russian citizens," it said without elaboration.
Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev later chaired a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, vowing that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.
"In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located," Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. "We won't allow the death of our compatriots go unpunished."
___
Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Vladimir Isachenkov in Moscow and John Heilprin at the United Nations contributed to this report.
piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 07:39 AM
Reuters
Russia sends forces into Georgian rebel conflict
By Margarita Antidze 36 minutes ago
Tensions over Georgia's rebel territory of South Ossetia exploded on Friday when Georgia tried to assert control over the region with tanks and rockets, and Russia sent forces to repel the assault.
Fighting between Georgian forces and Russian-backed separatists raged in and around Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, after Tbilisi sent troops to take back the territory, which broke away in the 1990s.
A senior Georgian security official said Russian jets had bombed the Vaziani military airbase outside the Georgian capital Tbilisi, and President Mikheil Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighboring Russia.
He also said Georgian forces had downed two Russian jets.
The Russian RIA news agency quoted a source in the regional Russian military headquarters as saying Russian armor had rolled into Tskhinvali, which Georgia had earlier claimed to have "freed." There was no immediate confirmation from Russia that it had sent bombers.
The crisis, the first to confront Russian President Dmitry Medvedev since he took office in May, looked close to spiraling into full-blown war in a region emerging as a key energy transit route, and where Russia and the West are vying for influence.
The roar of warplanes and the explosions of heavy shells were deafening more than three km (two miles) away from Tskhinvali. Many houses were ablaze.
Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeepers in the territory, told Interfax by telephone from Tskhinvali: "As a result of many hours of shelling from heavy guns, the town is practically destroyed."
Russian news agencies quoted witnesses saying a Russian armored column had rolled across the border.
MOBILISATION
Saakashvili told reporters: "This is a clear intrusion on another country's territory. We have Russian tanks on our territory, jets on our territory in broad daylight." He ordered a full-scale mobilization of military reservists.
Russia's benchmark equity index fell more than 4 percent to a 14-month low, while the rouble lost over 1 percent against a basket of 0.45 euros and 0.55 dollars.
NATO, the European Union and the United States, a vocal Georgian ally, all urged a halt to the bloodshed while Moscow vowed to respond after it said several Russian peacekeepers were killed by Georgian artillery fire.
"Some shells directly hit (their) barracks in Tskhinvali," Russia's Interfax news agency quoted a peacekeepers' spokesman as saying.
Andrei Chistyakov, a correspondent for Russia's Vesti-24 television station, said at least 15 civilians had been killed in Tskhinvali, where thousands of people took refuge in cellars.
"These are the people whose bodies were seen in their yards and in the streets," he said by telephone.
Medvedev vowed to defend Russian "compatriots" in South Ossetia, whose separatist administration is supported by Russia, and where most people have been given Russian passports.
"We will not allow their deaths to go unpunished," Interfax quoted him as saying.
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) urged the two sides to set up a "humanitarian corridor" to evacuate civilians and the wounded.
Georgia said its operation, launched after a week of clashes between separatists and Georgian troops in which nearly 20 people were killed, was aimed at ending South Ossetia's effective independence, won in a 1991-92 war.
The majority of the roughly 70,000 people living in South Ossetia are ethnically distinct from Georgians. They say they were forcibly absorbed into Georgia under Soviet rule and now want to exercise their right to self-determination.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, visiting Beijing, said Georgia had used heavy armor and artillery.
"The Georgian leadership has resorted to very aggressive actions, he said. "There are casualties, including among Russian peacekeepers. This is very sad and this will incur a response."
EMERGENCY U.N. SESSION
A senior Georgian security official, Kakha Lamaia, told Reuters that heavy military equipment and armored vehicles were entering South Ossetia through the Roki tunnel from Russia.
"Our intelligence didn't detect any regular Russian units, but detected heavy equipment and armored military vehicles coming through the tunnel," he said.
Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said government forces had also fought mercenaries who had entered South Ossetia from Russia.
Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze said the operation would continue until a "durable peace" had been reached.
The Kremlin said Medvedev had summoned his top security advisers to discuss how to restore peace and defend civilians "within the peacekeeping mandate we have."
At an emergency session of the United Nations on Thursday night, Russia failed to push through a statement that would have called on both sides to stop fighting immediately.
Council diplomats said a phrase calling on all sides to "renounce the use of force" had been unacceptable to the Georgians, backed by the United States and the Europeans.
Saakashvili, who wants to take his small Caucasus nation into NATO, has made it a priority to win back control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another rebel region on the Black Sea.
The issue has bedeviled Georgia's relations with Russia, which is angered by Tbilisi's moves towards the Western fold and its pursuit of NATO membership.
piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 08:21 AM
Georgia 'under attack' as Russian tanks roll in
* Story Highlights
* NEW: Georgian President: "This is the worst nightmare one can encounter"
* Russian TV showed tanks and troops moving towards Georgia
* Russian authorities said several of its peacekeepers died in a Georgian attack
* Vladimir Putin warned Russia would respond to Georgia's actions
TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Georgia's president said Friday that his country is under attack by Russian tanks and warplanes, and he accused Russia of targeting civilians as tensions over the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia appeared to boil over into full-blown conflict.
"All day today, they've been bombing Georgia from numerous warplanes and specifically targeting (the) civilian population, and we have scores of wounded and dead among (the) civilian population all around the country," President Mikhail Saakashvili told CNN in an exclusive interview.
"This is the worst nightmare one can encounter," he said.
Asked whether Georgia and Russia were now at war, he said, "My country is in self-defense against Russian aggression. Russian troops invaded Georgia." VideoWatch the interview with Saakashvili »
About 150 Russian armored vehicles have entered South Ossetia, Saakashvili said, and Georgian forces had shot down two Russian aircraft.
Russia's Defense Ministry said it sent "reinforcements" to South Ossetia to help the Russian peacekeepers already stationed there. VideoWatch the Russian tanks moving into the area »
The events followed an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council to discuss a dramatic escalation of violence in Georgia and South Ossetia. The session ended Friday morning without a statement about the fighting.
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said it was sending an envoy to the region immediately.
NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer issued a statement Friday saying he was seriously concerned about the recent events in the region, and he called on all sides to end armed clashes and begin direct talks. VideoWatch more about NATO's attempts to help Georgia »
Carmen Romero, a NATO spokeswoman speaking to CNN from Brussels, reiterated Scheffer's statement. She said NATO was in regular contact with Georgia's president and was talking to the Russian side.
Britain and the United States also urged all sides to bring an immediate end to the violence.
"The U.S. has been in discussions for many months with all parties to find a peaceful resolution," said White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe. "We urge all sides to refrain from violence and to begin direct talks."
Earlier Friday, Russian military aircraft dropped two bombs on Georgian territory, a Georgian official said, causing no casualties.
In a letter addressed to his "fellow citizens" Friday, Saakashvili said he had mobilized tens of thousands of reserve officers and that the mobilization continued.
"We must unite," Saakashvili wrote. "All of us, hundreds of thousands of Georgians here and abroad, should come together, unite, and fight to save Georgia. We are a freedom-loving people, and if our nation is united, no aggressor will be able to harm it."
Georgia declared a unilateral three-hour ceasefire at 3 p.m. to enable civilians to escape from the conflict zone, which so far was focused inside South Ossetia but included aerial targets inside Georgia, Saakashvili said.
"Clearly they don't really have boundaries in their activities," said Georgian Foreign Minister Eka Tkeshelashvili, in an interview with CNN. She said Russian aircraft had bombed "several villages" in Georgia outside of the South Ossetian territory.
Tkeshelashvili said Georgian authorities are still collecting information on casualties.
Georgia was appealing to the world for diplomatic intervention, she said, stressing that Georgia was not asking for military assistance.
Violence has been mounting in the region in recent days, with sporadic clashes between Georgian forces and South Ossetian separatists. South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia in the early 1990s, but its independence is not internationally recognized.
Georgian troops launched new attacks in South Ossetia late Thursday after a top government official said a unilateral cease-fire offer was met with separatist artillery fire.
Alexander Lomaia, the secretary of Georgia's National Security Council, said Georgian troops were responding proportionately to separatist mortar and artillery attacks on two villages -- attacks he said followed the cease-fire and call for negotiations by Saakashvili.
Russia said a Georgian attack on a military barracks left a number of Russian peacekeepers dead.
"It's all very sad and alarming," Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said earlier in the day. "And, of course, there will be a response."
Putin was at a meeting with U.S. President Bush in Beijing, where they attended a luncheon for world leaders hosted by the Chinese president ahead of the Olympics, which begin Friday.
"There are lots of volunteers being gathered in the region, and it's very hard to withhold them from taking part. A real war is going on," Putin said, according to his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.
Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.
"The Georgian leadership has launched a dirty adventure," said a statement from Russia's Defense Ministry on Friday. "We will not leave our peacekeepers and Russian citizens unprotected."
Saakashvili said the Russian invasion of South Ossetia was pre-planned.
"These troops that are in Georgia now -- they didn't come unexpectedly," the president told CNN. "They had been amassing at the border for the last few months. They claimed they were staging exercises there and as soon as a suitable pretext was found, they moved in."
Georgia, located on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey, has been split by Russian-backed separatist movements in South Ossetia and another region, Abkhazia.
-- Journalist Elene Gotsadze contributed to this report.
tomhye
Aug 8 2008, 08:35 AM
Predictably both sides are misrepresenting many basic facts, it's unlikely to become a major military confrontation (unless Georgia is suicidal), Georgia never controlled South Ossetia so regaining control is impossible and the confrontation was planned and even expected for well over a year.
We installed (through the Rose Revolution) a corrupt government to replace the corrupt government Georgia had, South Ossetia is mostly symbolic and being used as a proxy, we tried to expand our sphere of influence and Russia countered by effectively expanding hers. This has internal political significance in Georgia andis a huge diplomatic warning to the region, the states in play are Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, the value is pipeline routes and options.
tomhye
Aug 8 2008, 05:29 PM
I know this doesn't have the adrenaline kick of assuming we're invading Iran or the orgasmic release of condemnation over an affair, but how this plays out will have noticeable impact on us for decades.
Istoodforu
Aug 8 2008, 07:07 PM
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 8 2008, 09:35 AM)

Predictably both sides are misrepresenting many basic facts, it's unlikely to become a major military confrontation (unless Georgia is suicidal), Georgia never controlled South Ossetia so regaining control is impossible and the confrontation was planned and even expected for well over a year.
We installed (through the Rose Revolution) a corrupt government to replace the corrupt government Georgia had, South Ossetia is mostly symbolic and being used as a proxy, we tried to expand our sphere of influence and Russia countered by effectively expanding hers. This has internal political significance in Georgia andis a huge diplomatic warning to the region, the states in play are Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, the value is pipeline routes and options.
The timing may be coincidental but there has been an Aug. 6 fire that has stopped flow on one of these pipelines along its route in Turkey:
BTC pipeline fire
tomhye
Aug 8 2008, 07:23 PM
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 8 2008, 06:07 PM)

QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 8 2008, 09:35 AM)

Predictably both sides are misrepresenting many basic facts, it's unlikely to become a major military confrontation (unless Georgia is suicidal), Georgia never controlled South Ossetia so regaining control is impossible and the confrontation was planned and even expected for well over a year.
We installed (through the Rose Revolution) a corrupt government to replace the corrupt government Georgia had, South Ossetia is mostly symbolic and being used as a proxy, we tried to expand our sphere of influence and Russia countered by effectively expanding hers. This has internal political significance in Georgia andis a huge diplomatic warning to the region, the states in play are Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, the value is pipeline routes and options.
The timing may be coincidental but there has been an Aug. 6 fire that has stopped flow on one of these pipelines along its route in Turkey:
BTC pipeline fire I've been trying to figure that out too but haven't been able to reach a conclusion with reasonable confidence. We can rule out the standard Turkish release that it was PKK with Armenian backing and basing, that only exists in their lies. Coincidental PKK attack? I certainly can't rule that out so it's at about the level of probability of a communist attack or the right wing doing it for western sympathy and backing. With the amount of military activity that could endanger the pipeline and the difference in environmental damage between a damaged pipeline being in use or idle (it crosses a protected environment in Georgia) players who might be inclined to temporarily suspend operation without appearing involved would include (in order of decreasing probability) Georgia, Russia, Azerbaijan and Turkey.
An interesting sidenote is that the natural gas pipeline adjacent to it wasn't damaged and Georgia depends on that for domestic consumption along with Azerbaijan depending on it as export and establishing position as a natural gas producer (in competition with Iran who is also building a major export pipeline through Turkey and has completed a pipeline to Armenia that could be expanded to supply Georgia and exports at rates well below what Azerbaijan or Russia charge).
Istoodforu
Aug 8 2008, 07:34 PM
Here is some background from wikipedia:
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipelinePerhaps another dirty little oil war on CNN sponsored this time by British Petroleum.
tomhye
Aug 8 2008, 07:49 PM
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 8 2008, 06:34 PM)

Here is some background from wikipedia:
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipelinePerhaps another dirty little oil war on CNN sponsored this time by British Petroleum.
It's way bigger than that! For the Russians it's a chance to get rid of basing opportunities for terrorists supporting Chechen independence (Ossetia was an access across the border for ethnic Chechens and Azerbaijan was the major hub and access point for hired al Qaeda fighters in the 90s through 2004) as well as pipeline strategy. Azerbaijan wants to be the oil and gas hub for central Asia, Georgia wants to be the transit point and Turkey wants to be the hub for Europe. The Caucuses are the key for central Asia and northern Iran, the other options are limited to a super tough pipeline being built through Iran (almost impossible, hugely expensive), going through Russian pipelines or building a pipeline to China.
Of course this is all complicated by the Deep State wanting to control everything from North Africa through Afghanistan, the US wanting to use the Caucuses for both oil and keeping Russia occupied with security threats and as a possible base for action against Iran and Azerbaijan trying to both keep independence from Russia (with no moves towards democracy) and exercise their claim to northeastern Iran (which they call South Azerbaijan).
gabriellemy
Aug 8 2008, 07:56 PM
http://www.interfax.ru/news.asp?id=25935QUOTE
08 августа 2008 года 18:11
Кокойты: в Цхинвали сотни погибших мирных жителей
Москва. 8 августа. INTERFAX.RU - Президент Южной Осетии Эдуард Кокойты заявил о многочисленных жертвах среди мирных жителей Цхинвали.
"В Цхинвали сотни погибших мирных жителей. Это уже третий геноцид осетинского народа со стороны Грузии. Главный убийца - это Саакашвили", - заявил Кокойты "Интерфаксу" по телефону в пятницу.
"Сопротивление в Цхинвали нарастает. Только что на Привокзальной площади подбиты четыре грузинских танка", - сообщил он.
"Последние трагические события должны стать последним шагом к признанию независимости Южной Осетии. Уверен, что в ближайшее время независимость Южной Осетии будет признана", - сказал Э.Кокойты
Istoodforu
Aug 8 2008, 08:28 PM
QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Aug 8 2008, 08:56 PM)

http://www.interfax.ru/news.asp?id=25935QUOTE
08 августа 2008 года 18:11
Кокойты: в Цхинвали сотни погибших мирных жителей
Москва. 8 августа. INTERFAX.RU - Президент Южной Осетии Эдуард Кокойты заявил о многочисленных жертвах среди мирных жителей Цхинвали.
"В Цхинвали сотни погибших мирных жителей. Это уже третий геноцид осетинского народа со стороны Грузии. Главный убийца - это Саакашвили", - заявил Кокойты "Интерфаксу" по телефону в пятницу.
"Сопротивление в Цхинвали нарастает. Только что на Привокзальной площади подбиты четыре грузинских танка", - сообщил он.
"Последние трагические события должны стать последним шагом к признанию независимости Южной Осетии. Уверен, что в ближайшее время независимость Южной Осетии будет признана", - сказал Э.Кокойты
A little help w translation? The English site for Interfax just seems to give headlines.
piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 09:48 PM
US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military
5 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AFP) — The Pentagon took a hands off approach to outbreak of hostilities between Russia and Georgia Friday, keeping tabs on US military trainers there and dusting off contingency plans should Americans need to be evacuated, Pentagon officials said.
However, there were no plans to redeploy the estimated 130 US troops and civilian contractors who are stationed in the area around Tblisi, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said. He said all have been accounted for.
"They are not involved in any way in this conflict between the Russian military and the Georgian military," said Lieutenant Colonel John Dorrian, a spokesman for the US European Command.
The US military has had a longstanding program to train Georgian troops for deployments in Iraq, where there are currently about 2,000 troops, making Georgia the third largest troop contributor to the US-led coalition.
The Georgian government said Friday it wants to bring home 1,000 troops from Iraq, and a US military official said the Pentagon has been asked for help in flying them home.
But otherwise, Pentagon officials said they knew of no other requests for military assistance.
The outbreak of fighting was being watched with concern at the Pentagon.
Whitman said the US Defense Department has been in contact with Georgian officials over the situation in South Ossetia, the breakaway region at the center of the conflict.
"We have forces in Georgia, so obviously the secretary is interested in the situation there," he said, referring to US Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
"We are watching it closely," a military official said. "We are looking at the situation, and how it develops. It's still early."
The US European Command's plans and operations center has also been monitoring the situation in South Ossetia, said Dorrian.
"What they do in a situation like this is contact the embassy, contact our troops there, assess the situation, and begin to receive any information or request for support from the embassy, or any reports about US citizens being in danger."
"At this point we are early in the hostilities. The situation is sort of dynamic at this point," he said.
Asked about planning for a possible non combatant evacuation, Dorrian said, "We do have robust plans in place to support needs like that if they are required."
Pentagon officials said such plans would be reviewed as a precaution in light of the situation although no request has been made by the State Department to evacuate civilians.
"Normally plans like this are dusted off and given a fresh look," said a defense official, who asked not to be identified.
"There is always contingency planning that takes place over a continuous period. When a moment of crisis seems to appear, they are looked at with fresh eyes at that time," the official said.
The United States, European Union and NATO have led international calls for an immediate end to violence in South Ossetia amid fears of all-out war between Russia and Georgia.
--------
Question: Exactly, why do the US feel the need to deny any involvment in this ?
piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 09:57 PM
Reportedly from my ICRC sources met at my regular drinking hole ...
- Geogians have flattened Tskhinvali, the whole city has been simply brought down by georgian shelling and air bombing.
- Civilians casualties have already exceeded 3000.
- Russian armor and troops are expected to make contact with forward georgian forces sometime saturday.
piccadilly
Aug 8 2008, 10:16 PM
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 8 2008, 09:28 PM)

QUOTE(gabriellemy @ Aug 8 2008, 08:56 PM)

http://www.interfax.ru/news.asp?id=25935QUOTE
08 августа 2008 года 18:11
Кокойты: в Цхинвали сотни погибших мирных жителей
Москва. 8 августа. INTERFAX.RU - Президент Южной Осетии Эдуард Кокойты заявил о многочисленных жертвах среди мирных жителей Цхинвали.
"В Цхинвали сотни погибших мирных жителей. Это уже третий геноцид осетинского народа со стороны Грузии. Главный убийца - это Саакашвили", - заявил Кокойты "Интерфаксу" по телефону в пятницу.
"Сопротивление в Цхинвали нарастает. Только что на Привокзальной площади подбиты четыре грузинских танка", - сообщил он.
"Последние трагические события должны стать последним шагом к признанию независимости Южной Осетии. Уверен, что в ближайшее время независимость Южной Осетии будет признана", - сказал Э.Кокойты
A little help w translation? The English site for Interfax just seems to give headlines.
Hundreds of innocent civilians killed in Tskhinvali
Moscow, August 8. INTERFAX.RU - The President of South Osetia, Edward Kokoyty, stated that there are numerous victims among the innocent civilians of Tskhinvali.
"In Tskhinvali, hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed. This is already the third genocide of ossetic people committed by Georgia. The killer is Saakashvili.", Kokoyty told Interfax by telephone on Friday.
"Resistance in Tskhinvali increases (improving). Four georgian tanks have been destroyed", he reported.
"These tragic events should finally allow the independence of South Osetia to be recognized. I am confident, South Osetia will soon become independent." said E.Kokoyty
tomhye
Aug 8 2008, 11:49 PM
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 8 2008, 08:48 PM)

US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military
5 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AFP) — The Pentagon took a hands off approach to outbreak of hostilities between Russia and Georgia Friday, keeping tabs on US military trainers there and dusting off contingency plans should Americans need to be evacuated, Pentagon officials said.
However, there were no plans to redeploy the estimated 130 US troops and civilian contractors who are stationed in the area around Tblisi, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said. He said all have been accounted for.
"They are not involved in any way in this conflict between the Russian military and the Georgian military," said Lieutenant Colonel John Dorrian, a spokesman for the US European Command.
The US military has had a longstanding program to train Georgian troops for deployments in Iraq, where there are currently about 2,000 troops, making Georgia the third largest troop contributor to the US-led coalition.
The Georgian government said Friday it wants to bring home 1,000 troops from Iraq, and a US military official said the Pentagon has been asked for help in flying them home.
But otherwise, Pentagon officials said they knew of no other requests for military assistance.
The outbreak of fighting was being watched with concern at the Pentagon.
Whitman said the US Defense Department has been in contact with Georgian officials over the situation in South Ossetia, the breakaway region at the center of the conflict.
"We have forces in Georgia, so obviously the secretary is interested in the situation there," he said, referring to US Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
"We are watching it closely," a military official said. "We are looking at the situation, and how it develops. It's still early."
The US European Command's plans and operations center has also been monitoring the situation in South Ossetia, said Dorrian.
"What they do in a situation like this is contact the embassy, contact our troops there, assess the situation, and begin to receive any information or request for support from the embassy, or any reports about US citizens being in danger."
"At this point we are early in the hostilities. The situation is sort of dynamic at this point," he said.
Asked about planning for a possible non combatant evacuation, Dorrian said, "We do have robust plans in place to support needs like that if they are required."
Pentagon officials said such plans would be reviewed as a precaution in light of the situation although no request has been made by the State Department to evacuate civilians.
"Normally plans like this are dusted off and given a fresh look," said a defense official, who asked not to be identified.
"There is always contingency planning that takes place over a continuous period. When a moment of crisis seems to appear, they are looked at with fresh eyes at that time," the official said.
The United States, European Union and NATO have led international calls for an immediate end to violence in South Ossetia amid fears of all-out war between Russia and Georgia.
--------
Question: Exactly, why do the US feel the need to deny any involvment in this ?
Because of what advisors there in a training capacity meant in VietNam in the early 60s.
tomhye
Aug 8 2008, 11:50 PM
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 8 2008, 08:57 PM)

Reportedly from my ICRC sources met at my regular drinking hole ...
- Geogians have flattened Tskhinvali, the whole city has been simply brought down by georgian shelling and air bombing.
- Civilians casualties have already exceeded 3000.
- Russian armor and troops are expected to make contact with forward georgian forces sometime saturday.
A few hours ago civilian casualties in South Ossetia were estimated at 1,400, 2% of their population.
Istoodforu
Aug 9 2008, 05:46 AM
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 9 2008, 12:49 AM)

QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 8 2008, 08:48 PM)

US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military
Question: Exactly, why do the US feel the need to deny any involvment in this ?
Because of what advisors there in a training capacity meant in VietNam in the early 60s.
Cryptic answer to an important question.
130 US military trainers may well be there to train Georgian soldiers for Iraqi deployments; but how many private contractors are there and what is their mission?
How goes the BTE pipeline figure in to all of this?
Livyjr
Aug 9 2008, 06:28 AM
AND AS WORLD WAR III LOOMS LARGE ON THE HORIZON ....
"US has political, economic stake in farflung spat"
By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer
Fri Aug 8, 6:17 PM ET
WASHINGTON - There's more than meets the eye to the frantic U.S. efforts Friday to talk Russia and U.S. ally Georgia out of war over an obscure mountain tract most Americans have never heard of.
A look at the map and your gas credit card bill shows why.
South Ossetia is claimed by Georgia, the former Soviet republic that cast its lot with the United States and the West to the eternal irritation of Moscow.
The breakaway province has been under Russia's sway for years.
Georgia sits in a tough neighborhood, shoulder to shoulder with huge Russia, not far from Iran, and astride one of the most important crossroads for the emerging wealth of the rich Caspian Sea region.
A U.S.-backed oil pipeline runs through Georgia, allowing the West to reduce its reliance on Middle Eastern oil while bypassing Russia and Iran.
The dispute makes the Bush administration the middleman between a promising ally it wants to help and the powerful former adversary next door whose help it needs.
Washington praises democratic development in Georgia, delights in its contribution of combat troops for Iraq and acknowledges valuable intelligence and counterterrorism cooperation.
Moscow's cooperation is vital to numerous Washington aims in Iran, North Korea and elsewhere.
"For all those reasons and the fact that Georgia has demonstrated that it is a close ally, we cannot simply sit by and say 'so be it, what does South Ossetia mean to us?'" said Janusz Bugajski, director of the new European democracies project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
"Georgia as a whole means quite a lot."
The pipeline that crosses Georgia can pump slightly more than 1 million barrels of crude oil per day, or more than 1 percent of the world's daily crude output.
The 1,100-mile pipeline carries oil from Azerbaijan's Caspian Sea fields, estimated to hold the world's third-largest reserves.
Its potential vulnerability was already in the spotlight after it was sabotaged this week, apparently by Kurdish separatists.
Most of the oil is bound for Western Europe, where gas prices are even higher than the $4 and more a gallon that U.S. consumers are now paying.
With only so much oil to go around, what the pipeline carries affects prices elsewhere.
The United States also hopes it will be a model for other development projects that could have a more direct effect on the U.S. market.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was on the phone Friday morning, appealing for calm in South Ossetia, a patch of craggy farmland that is home to about 70,000 people — fewer than live in Youngstown, Ohio.
In a statement later she reiterated U.S. commitment to Georgia's "territorial integrity."
President Bush discussed the violence with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, while the presumptive Democratic and Republican candidates to replace Bush issued worried statements.
Tanks rolled as Bush spoke.
Hundreds were reported dead in the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won defacto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.
Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali was devastated.
South Ossetia is one of the few places where ethnic, nationalist or other complications mean that the Cold War went dormant but didn't die.
U.S diplomats refer to these neighborhood squabbles as "frozen conflicts," a euphemism that belies the long-recognized threat that seemingly petty disputes can easily provoke a wider war.
The United States, European nations and others raced Friday to keep the conflict from spreading.
The State Department appealed for a cease-fire and prepared to send a mediator to the region.
A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity because no official announcement had been made, said the envoy was Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Matthew Bryza, a specialist on the region.
The timing of the trip was unclear.
"We are asking our friends, and the United States among them, to somehow to try to mediate and try to persuade Russia to stop this military aggression and invasion of Georgia," Vasil Sikharulidze, Georgia's ambassador to Washington, said in an interview.
At the Pentagon, a senior defense official said Georgian authorities have asked the United States for help getting its approximately 2,000 troops out of Iraq.
The request is apparently related to the fighting in South Ossetia.
Georgia has been the third-largest contributor of combat troops after the United States and Britain.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the discussions have been private, said no formal decision has been made on whether to support the departure, but said it is likely the U.S. will do so.
___
Associated Press writers Matthew Lee, Lolita C. Baldor and Desmond Butler contributed to this report.
Livyjr
Aug 9 2008, 06:29 AM
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ETHNIC-CLEANSING IN FREDONIA?
tomhye
Aug 9 2008, 08:42 AM
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 9 2008, 04:46 AM)

QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 9 2008, 12:49 AM)

QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 8 2008, 08:48 PM)

US military trainers not involved in Georgia conflict: military
Question: Exactly, why do the US feel the need to deny any involvment in this ?
Because of what advisors there in a training capacity meant in VietNam in the early 60s.
Cryptic answer to an important question.
130 US military trainers may well be there to train Georgian soldiers for Iraqi deployments; but how many private contractors are there and what is their mission?
How goes the BTE pipeline figure in to all of this?
Cheney brokered the BTC pipeline and we ostensibly have troops in Azerbaijan to help them with pipeline protection (really more as a jumping off point for Iran if they'd allow it and the right situation presents itself, plans for that seem to have died in 2005). Our government has guaranteed the profitability of the pipeline after Cheney lobbied for it (he accepted a medal from Azerbaijan for being an illegal agent for them). The pipeline is hundreds of miles longer than it needed to be to bypass Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey have illegal blockades on Armenia and a mid level Azeri official has stated the goal of eliminating all Armenians from the Caucuses and eliminating the Armenian state (genocide). Georgia is neutral but has a defense pact with Turkey which has promised to back Azerbaijan militarily.
Our government says total of military and contractors there is around 200 (in Georgia), last I heard (long time ago) we were at 700 military with talk of expanding to 1,300 and an unknown number of contractors in Azerbaijan.
tomhye
Aug 9 2008, 11:04 AM
There is an unconfirmed report that the Georgian President has suffered a heart attack and is in grave condition, the Georgian government has refused to comment.
The best (I'm not sure complete or fully balanced is even possible) synopsis of the strategic concerns I've read recently was from Turkish Weekly, kudos for high quality journalism under difficult conditions on this subject.
The conflict should wind down without widening, Russia has secured 2 agreements for central Asian oil and gas that pretty much end US hopes of expanding this pipeline complex.
Indianhead
Aug 9 2008, 05:32 PM
Are they burning Atlanta or Yerevan?
No? Then I'll await the brother's take.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 03:21 AM
Last night, a discussion around the drinking hole in Geneva brought up the possibility that the US pulled a "Saddam on Saakashvili.
Namely encouraged Georgia to claim it's sovereignty over South Ossetia with informal promises of US support to prevent a Russian intervention, support "garanteed" by the presence of several hundreds of US military advisers arguing the russians wouldn't take the risk to face even accidetnaly these advisers, less causing any casualties among them.
Eventually, the purpose of this "Saddam" is to assess the performance of the latest russian armor, AT and AA defense systems. in the wake of meeting such weapons in russsia-supported Iran.
graham4anything
Aug 10 2008, 04:20 AM
QUOTE(picadilly @ Aug 10 2008, 05:21 AM)

Last night, a discussion around the drinking hole in Geneva brought up the possibility that the US pulled a "Saddam on Saakashvili.
Namely encouraged Georgia to claim it's sovereignty over South Ossetia with informal promises of US support to prevent a Russian intervention, support "garanteed" by the presence of several hundreds of US military advisers arguing the russians wouldn't take the risk to face even accidetnaly these advisers, less causing any casualties among them.
Eventually, the purpose of this "Saddam" is to assess the performance of the latest russian armor, AT and AA defense systems. in the wake of meeting such weapons in russsia-supported Iran.
I do believe you are as always, 100% correct.
Magmak1 a long time ago said our real goals are fighting China and Russia...the rest is all in preparation for that
and the Bush family have always looked 6 steps ahead on the ole' chess board.
So 1980s and Cold War and all that stuff-which suited them all fine.
Worse moment in 41's history was when Reagan in an unscripted moment got Gorby to end what was never suppose to end, and they been working their back to that moment in time ever since.
Istoodforu
Aug 10 2008, 07:03 AM
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 9 2008, 12:04 PM)

The conflict should wind down without widening, Russia has secured 2 agreements for central Asian oil and gas that pretty much end US hopes of expanding this pipeline complex.
Winding down?
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 07:09 AM
More winding down ....
Abkhazia sends army to drive out Georgian troops
By RUSLAN KHASHIG, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 31 minutes ago
Separatist authorities in Georgia's breakaway province of Abkhazia mobilized the army and called up reservists Sunday to drive Georgian government forces out of the small part of the province still under Georgian control.
The move dramatically raises the stakes in the conflict between Georgia and Russia over another separatist province, South Ossetia. With most Georgian troops concentrated on fighting Russian troops in South Ossetia, it could be hard for Georgia to repel the Abkhazian offensive.
In addition, Russia troops were seen moving through Abkahzia toward the border with Georgia, which lies on the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia.
Abkhazia's President Sergei Bagapsh said he issued a decree putting the province's troops on high alert and mobilizing some reservists after Georgia launched a military campaign to regain control over South Ossetia.
Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up close ties with Moscow. Russia has granted passports to most of their residents.
Russia's NTV television said more Russian troops arrived in Abkhazia in addition to peacekeepers deployed there for more than a decade, heading toward the border with Georgia. It showed a long convoy of armored vehicles rolling through the Abkhaz capital, Sukhumi.
Bagapsh said he wouldn't conduct any talks with Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili's government. "There can be no dialogue with the Georgian leadership, they are criminals," he said.
Bagapsh said Abkhazian troops aim to push Georgian troops out of the Kodori Gorge in Abkhazia. The northern part of the gorge is the only area of Abkhazia that has remained under Georgian government control.
"We are conducting artillery shelling and air strikes there," Bagapsh said at a news conference.
Georgia's Security Council Secretary Alexander Lomaia confirmed that Kodori came under attack, but he blamed it on Russia. Russian aircraft on Sunday also bombed Georgia's Zugdidi region, which lies next to Abkhazia, he said.
Bagapsh said Abkhazian forces also moved into a buffer zone on the border with Georgia's Zugdidi region to "enforce order" and eliminate the Georgian militants who had mounted attacks on Abkhazian police and security forces from there.
Russian military officials wouldn't comment on the deployment, but the Georgian government said 4,000 Russian troops landed in Abkhazia on Saturday.
Bagapsh acknowledged the Abkhazian move into the buffer zone would violate a peace agreement that ended the 1992-1993 war in which the region won de-facto independence, but claimed that Georgia was the first to violate the truce.
"We will call up more reservists if necessary," Bagapsh said, adding that Russia has sent its naval squadron to Georgia's Black Sea coast at his request.
The Georgian government issued a statement Sunday warning Abkhazia against joining the conflict.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 11:55 AM
US begins flying Georgian troops home from Iraq
By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 3 minutes ago
The U.S. military began flying 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq on Sunday, military officials said, after the Georgians recalled the soldiers following the outbreak of fighting with Russia in the breakaway province of South Ossetia.
The decision was a timely payback for the former Soviet republic that has been a staunch U.S. supporter and agreed to send troops to Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition.
Georgia was the third-largest contributor of coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain, and most of its troops were stationed near the Iranian border in southeastern Iraq.
The U.S. military has played down concerns about the redeployment, saying it may have "some impact" in the near term but no significant long-term effect on Iraq's security.
"We want to thank them for the great support they've given the coalition and we wish them well," military spokesman Rear Adm. Patrick Driscoll said earlier Sunday at a news conference.
Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, had asked the U.S. military on Friday to provide transportation.
"We are supporting the Georgian military units that are in Iraq in their redeployment to Georgia so that they can support requirements there during the current security situation," said Col. Jerry O'Hara, another military spokesman in Baghdad. "Flights have in fact begun today and Georgian forces are redeploying."
He declined to disclose flight details. But another senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information, said the military would fly the troops back "to the republic of Georgia.
The officials also said American units had been shuffled in their area of responsibility to compensate for the departure of the Georgians.
O'Hara said that even though the loss of forces was unexpected, "we can and are accommodating the changes."
Most Georgian troops moved last year from the relatively safe Green Zone in Baghdad to an area southeast of the capital to help interdict supplies allegedly being smuggled to Shiite extremists from Iran. More than 100 remained in Baghdad to help secure the Green Zone.
At least five Georgians soldiers have died in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.
Some Iraqis welcomed the Georgian withdrawal, saying they're tired of the presence of U.S-led foreign troops.
"God willing, not only the Georgian forces will withdraw but all other troops will leave our country and security and stability will come back to our land," Baghdad resident Ghada Adnan told Associated Press Television News.
Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes.
In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, began overwhelming bombing and shelling attacks against Georgia and Georgian troops.
tomhye
Aug 10 2008, 12:07 PM
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 10 2008, 06:03 AM)

QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 9 2008, 12:04 PM)

The conflict should wind down without widening, Russia has secured 2 agreements for central Asian oil and gas that pretty much end US hopes of expanding this pipeline complex.
Winding down?YEP! The "expansion" is part and parcel of the initial conflict, Misha failed to draw others into the conflict so it will end quickly with the breakaway regions being less disputed.
Istoodforu
Aug 10 2008, 12:37 PM
QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 10 2008, 01:07 PM)

QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 10 2008, 06:03 AM)

QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 9 2008, 12:04 PM)

The conflict should wind down without widening, Russia has secured 2 agreements for central Asian oil and gas that pretty much end US hopes of expanding this pipeline complex.
Winding down?YEP! The "expansion" is part and parcel of the initial conflict, Misha failed to draw others into the conflict so it will end quickly with the breakaway regions being less disputed.
Does Misha refer to Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili?
tomhye
Aug 10 2008, 12:42 PM
QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 10 2008, 11:37 AM)

QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 10 2008, 01:07 PM)

QUOTE(Istoodforu @ Aug 10 2008, 06:03 AM)

QUOTE(tomhye @ Aug 9 2008, 12:04 PM)

The conflict should wind down without widening, Russia has secured 2 agreements for central Asian oil and gas that pretty much end US hopes of expanding this pipeline complex.
Winding down?YEP! The "expansion" is part and parcel of the initial conflict, Misha failed to draw others into the conflict so it will end quickly with the breakaway regions being less disputed.
Does Misha refer to Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili?
Yes. I'll take an unpopular stand here, by overplaying his hand so badly he greatly reduced the risk of a world war starting in the Caucuses but the downside is he handed effective control of the region to Russia. He increased military confrontation when he was being told to decrease it (not that Russia wasn't looking for an excuse, but handing them one was idiotic), let's be glad he did it before Georgia had a chance to become part of NATO.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 12:51 PM
Russian news agencies report sunken Georgian ship
9 minutes ago
Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry is claiming to have sunk a Georgian missile boat that was trying to attack Russian navy ships in the Black Sea.
Russia's Defense Ministry refused to comment on the Sunday reports to The Associated Press and Georgian officials could not immediately be reached.
If confirmed, the incident could mark a serious escalation of the fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia.
"Georgian missile patrol boats today made two attempts to attack Russian military ships. The Russian ships opened fire in response and as a result, one of the Georgian ships carrying out the attack was sunk," the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted a ministry spokesman as saying.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — Georgia called a cease-fire and said its troops were retreating Sunday from the disputed province of South Ossetia in the face of Russia's far superior firepower. Russia said the soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping" and refused to recognize a truce.
International envoys headed in to try to end the fighting between Russia and its small U.S.-allied neighbor that erupted last week in the Russian-backed separatist region.
The announcement of a retreat came after Russia expanded its bombing blitz Sunday — targeting the area around the Georgian capital's international airport. Russia also deployed a naval squadron off another of Georgia's separatist regions, Abkhazia, and according to Georgia landed thousands of troops.
President Mikhail Saakashvili ordered a unilateral cease-fire, the Foreign Ministry said, and the country's security council head said troops had left South Ossetia. Russia, however, insisted Georgian soldiers remained around the regional capital, Tskhinvali, where the fighting has been the most brutal. Tskhinvali is located close to the border between the breakaway region and the rest of Georgia.
Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes that pounded Tskhinvali.
In response, Russia launched overwhelming artillery shelling and air attacks on Georgian troops. On Sunday, Russian jets targeted an aircraft-making plant near the airport on the outskirts of Tbilisi, the capital of the former Soviet republic.
Thousands of civilians have fled South Ossetia — many seeking shelter in the Russian province of North Ossetia.
"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors of the fighting.
She seemed confused by the conflict. "The Georgians say it is their land," she said. "Where is our land, then? We don't know."
The scope of Russia's military response has the Bush administration deeply worried.
"We have made it clear to the Russians that if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues, that this will have a significant long-term impact on U.S.-Russian relations," U.S. deputy national security adviser Jim Jeffrey told reporters.
The U.S. military began flying 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq after Georgia recalled them, even while calling for a truce.
"Georgia expresses its readiness to immediately start negotiations with the Russian Federation on a cease-fire and termination of hostilities," the Georgian Foreign Ministry said in a statement, adding that it had notified Russia's envoy to Tbilisi.
But Russia insisted Georgian troops were continuing their attacks.
Alexander Darchiev, Russia's charge d'affairs in Washington, said Georgian soldiers were "not withdrawing but regrouping, including heavy armor and increased attacks on Tskhinvali."
"Mass mobilization is still under way," he told CNN's "Late Edition."
The U.N. Security Council — where Russia has a veto — began talks Sunday for the fourth time in four days to try to resolve the situation.
Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said more than 2,000 people had been killed in South Ossetia since Friday, most of them Ossetians with Russian passports. The figures could not be independently confirmed.
The respected Russian radio station Ekho Moskvy reported that two journalists were killed by South Ossetian separatists, citing a correspondent of Russian Newsweek magazine.
Georgia borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia and was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union. Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have run their own affairs without international recognition since fighting to split from Georgia in the early 1990s.
Both separatist provinces have close ties with Moscow, while Georgia has deeply angered Russia by wanting to join NATO.
Georgia's Security Council chief Alexander Lomaia said the Georgian troops had to move out of South Ossetia because of heavy Russian shelling. "Russia further escalated its aggression overnight, using weapons on unprecedented scale," Lomaia said.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner called the hostilities in South Ossetia "massacres," hours before he and Finnish counterpart Alexander Stubb were scheduled to travel to Tbilisi for a meeting with Saakashvili.
Kouchner said he would deliver a "message of peace" to Georgia and Russia, and call on both countries "to stop the fighting immediately."
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, meeting Saturday with South Ossetia refugees who had fled across the border to the Russian city of Vladikavkaz, described Georgia's actions as "complete genocide." Putin also said Georgia had lost the right to rule the breakaway province — an indication Moscow could be ready to absorb the province.
President Bush has called for an end to the Russian bombings and an immediate halt to the fighting, accusing Russia of using the issue to bomb other regions in Georgia.
Russian jets raided several Georgian air bases and bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility. The Russian warplanes also struck near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline which carries Caspian crude to the West.
Russian officials said they were targeting Georgian communications and lines of supply. But a Russian raid Saturday on Gori near South Ossetia, which apparently targeted a military base on the town's outskirts, also killed many civilians.
Tskhinvali residents who survived the Georgian bombardment overnight Friday by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died.
The Georgian government said Sunday that 6,000 Russian troops have rolled into South Ossetia from the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia and 4,000 more landed in Abkhazia. The Russian military wouldn't comment on troop movements.
Russia also sent a naval squadron to blockade Georgia's Black Sea coast. Ukraine, where the ships were based, warned Russia in response that it has the right to bar the ships from coming back to port because of their mission.
Both Ukraine and Georgia have sought to free themselves of Russia's influence, and to integrate into the West and join NATO.
Georgia said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, but Russia acknowledged only two.
NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said Russia violated Georgia's territorial integrity in South Ossetia and employed a "disproportionate use of force."
Adding to Georgia's woes, Russian-supported separatists in Abkhazia launched air and artillery strikes on Georgian troops to drive them out of a small part of the province they control.
Abkhazia's separatist government called out the army and reservists on Sunday and declared it would push Georgian forces out of the northern part of the Kodori Gorge, the only area of Abkhazia still under Georgian control.
Separatist Abkhazia forces also were concentrating on the border near Georgia's Zugdidi region.
___
Associated Press writers David Nowak in Gori, Georgia; Douglas Birch in Vladikavkaz, Russia; and Jim Heintz, Vladimir Isachenkov and Lynn Berry in Moscow contributed to this report.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 12:54 PM
South Ossetians describe fleeing from the fighting
By DOUGLAS BIRCH, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 2 minutes ago
VLADIKAVKAZ, Russia — South Ossetian refugees on Sunday described being shelled and shot at and forced to run for their lives — leaving homes, family members and most of what they had behind. They talked of hiding in the woods, being mocked by Georgian soldiers and passing the dead on the roadside.
The hundreds of refugees from the fighting in the Georgian breakaway region sought shelter in Russia on Sunday. They were among thousands who fled the region, and in particular the capital city of Tskhinvali, in recent days as Georgian forces battled for control.
Marina Dudayeva, a woman in her early 20s, fled from Tskhinvali wearing only her bed clothes and a pair of plastic slippers. On Sunday she found herself at a leafy, run-down summer camp near Alagir in the Russian region of North Ossetia, just across the border from South Ossetia.
The residents of both regions are ethnic Ossetians, and have close family and cultural ties.
Dudayeva said she doesn't know what happened to relatives she left behind, including her 19-year-old brother.
"We can't contact them," she said, standing with her arms folded across her chest.
Many who fled still appeared to be in shock.
"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors.
She seemed confused by the conflict. "The Georgians say it is their land," she said. "Where is our land, then? We don't know."
Before the woman could give her name, police at the camp interrupted the interview. Two foreign reporters were later fined for working without special permission in a restricted border zone.
Russian authorities have detained and questioned a number of journalists working in the region. They have focused on those working for the Western news media — an apparent sign of rising tensions over the conflict in South Ossetia, a region that broke away from Georgian rule in the early 1990s and developed close ties to Russia.
Hundreds of other refugees gathered Sunday at a central square in Vladikavkaz, the North Ossetian capital, waiting to go to be sent to Anapa, a resort city on the Black Sea.
Zema Kulumbegova, a 43-year-old part-time English teacher, said when the shooting started last week, she, her husband and two children took shelter in the wine cellar of their two-story home in Tskhinvali.
At first, the skirmishes lasted a few hours and the Kulumbegov family would venture out. But by early Friday morning, the fighting became intense.
Kulumbegova said a rocket hit their neighbor's house and started a fire. "It's amazing that we weren't all killed," she said.
Her husband, a teacher and craftsman, refused to leave. So did her 90-year-old father, who said he wanted to spend the last days of his life at home.
So she gathered her three girls — Ina, 14, Lina, 12, and Marina, 11 — and called a relative to pick them up in his car. They spent the day in a nearby village, watching the fighting grow closer. Finally, she said, Georgian tanks started firing into nearby houses.
Those huddled in the house climbed into two cars and started off along a road through a stretch of woods. As they passed through the forest, they came under fire. Kulumbegova said she and her daughters ran among the trees and lay on the ground until the firing stopped.
When they returned to the road, they found their vehicles crippled. So she and her girls hiked up the road to the next settlement.
At one point, she said, they ran from the sound of gunfire and a group of Georgian soldiers laughed at them.
At last they reached a village where buses were waiting to take refugees north across the steep Caucasus Mountains and into Russia.
They arrived in Vladikavkaz on Friday, and at first moved in with a distant relative. But there were five other refugees already living in the apartment, a total of 12 people in four small rooms.
Kulumbegova said her father survived, but like many other South Ossetians has become embittered toward the Georgians.
"He always talked of the Georgians as 'our brothers,'" she said. "But now he doesn't say that any more."
Many Ossetians say they believe the United States supported Georgia's use of military force to try to restore Georgian rule in South Ossetia.
Following the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali, Kulumbegova said she expects many South Ossetians who once might have agreed to reunification with Georgia to oppose the idea. More, she predicted, will support unification with Russia.
"If you beat a dog, it will run away," she said, bitterly. "If we become part of Russia, I think that the way we live will in many ways be better than it is now."
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 12:55 PM
War in the Caucasus
Georgia under all-out attack in breakaway Abkhazia
Separatist rebels and Russian forces launch attack on Georgian stronghold in Black Sea territory
* Luke Harding and Mark Tran
* guardian.co.uk,
* Sunday August 10 2008 17:15 BST
* Article history
The conflict in the Caucasus today spread to Georgia's second breakaway province of Abkhazia, where separatist rebels and the Russian air force launched an all-out attack on Georgian forces.
Abkhazia's pro-Moscow separatist leader Sergei Bagapsh said his troops had launched a major "military operation" to force Georgian troops out of the mountainous Kodori gorge, which Georgian forces control as a strategic foothold in the breakaway Black Sea territory.
He said "around 1,000 special Abkhaz troops" were involved. They were attacking and pounding Georgian positions using "warplanes, multiple rocket launchers and artillery", he said.
"The operation will enter the next phase as planned. And you will learn about that," he promised today, adding that he would create a "humanitarian corridor" allowing residents living in the district to flee.
The offensive appeared to mark a dangerous new front in the conflict between Georgia and Russia - following Georgia's apparent withdrawal from its other breakaway region of South Ossetia today.
Georgia immediately accused Russia of planning and executing the attack on the Kodori valley - a small but strategic enclave just inside Abkhazia, and controlled by Georgian forces since 2006.
Georgian interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said: "They have started the operation to storm Kodori gorge." Asked who was behind the operation, he replied: "The Russian army."
Speaking in Tbilisi, Georgia's parliamentary speaker, David Bakradze, said he had "irrefutable proof" that the Russian military was masterminding the "plan". He urged residents to stay calm, adding "the enemy will be offered all resistance".
In an interview on BBC World, the Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, accused Russia of having 150 tanks and 10,000 troops in Abkhazia.
Georgia earlier said Russia had landed 4,000 troops in Abkhazia last night - a subtropical exclave on the eastern coast of the Black Sea, which abuts the Russian resort town of Sochi, where Vladimir Putin has his summer residence.
It added that 10 Russian jets had pounded Tbilisi-controlled 'upper Abkhazia' on Saturday, and that Georgian government troops had shot one of them down.
The Russian air force bombarded Chkhalata - the gorge's main administrative centre, where Georgia has installed an alternative pro-Tbilisi Abkhaz government. It also hit the airdrome village of Omarishara, Georgia said.
Russia today insisted it did not want to "escalate the conflict". Army spokesman Anatoly Nogovitsyn told the agency Interfax: "We do not intend to take the initiative in escalating the conflict in this region. We are primarily interested in stabilisation [in Abkhazia]."
But there seems little doubt that Russia is determined to evict Georgian troops from the Kodori gorge. Its aim appears to be to restore the de facto border between Georgia and Abkhazia - and to boost the pro-Russian separatist government based in the seaside town of Sukhumi.
Abkhazia has enjoyed de facto independence since driving Georgian forces out in a 1992-3 civil war. Like South Ossetia, it has received help and assistance from Russia, with most residents now holding Russian passports.
Vladimir Putin recognised Abkhazia as a legal entity in April - a move that enraged Tbilisi, which accused him of trying to annex the territory.
The UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon said he was profoundly concerned over growing tensions in Abkhazia.
Ukraine also warned that it might not allow Russian ships deployed off Abkhazia to return to their base in the Crimea.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 12:56 PM
War in the Caucasus
Georgia under all-out attack in breakaway Abkhazia
Separatist rebels and Russian forces launch attack on Georgian stronghold in Black Sea territory
* Luke Harding and Mark Tran
* guardian.co.uk,
* Sunday August 10 2008 17:15 BST
* Article history

The conflict in the Caucasus today spread to Georgia's second breakaway province of Abkhazia, where separatist rebels and the Russian air force launched an all-out attack on Georgian forces.
Abkhazia's pro-Moscow separatist leader Sergei Bagapsh said his troops had launched a major "military operation" to force Georgian troops out of the mountainous Kodori gorge, which Georgian forces control as a strategic foothold in the breakaway Black Sea territory.
He said "around 1,000 special Abkhaz troops" were involved. They were attacking and pounding Georgian positions using "warplanes, multiple rocket launchers and artillery", he said.
"The operation will enter the next phase as planned. And you will learn about that," he promised today, adding that he would create a "humanitarian corridor" allowing residents living in the district to flee.
The offensive appeared to mark a dangerous new front in the conflict between Georgia and Russia - following Georgia's apparent withdrawal from its other breakaway region of South Ossetia today.
Georgia immediately accused Russia of planning and executing the attack on the Kodori valley - a small but strategic enclave just inside Abkhazia, and controlled by Georgian forces since 2006.
Georgian interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said: "They have started the operation to storm Kodori gorge." Asked who was behind the operation, he replied: "The Russian army."
Speaking in Tbilisi, Georgia's parliamentary speaker, David Bakradze, said he had "irrefutable proof" that the Russian military was masterminding the "plan". He urged residents to stay calm, adding "the enemy will be offered all resistance".
In an interview on BBC World, the Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, accused Russia of having 150 tanks and 10,000 troops in Abkhazia.
Georgia earlier said Russia had landed 4,000 troops in Abkhazia last night - a subtropical exclave on the eastern coast of the Black Sea, which abuts the Russian resort town of Sochi, where Vladimir Putin has his summer residence.
It added that 10 Russian jets had pounded Tbilisi-controlled 'upper Abkhazia' on Saturday, and that Georgian government troops had shot one of them down.
The Russian air force bombarded Chkhalata - the gorge's main administrative centre, where Georgia has installed an alternative pro-Tbilisi Abkhaz government. It also hit the airdrome village of Omarishara, Georgia said.
Russia today insisted it did not want to "escalate the conflict". Army spokesman Anatoly Nogovitsyn told the agency Interfax: "We do not intend to take the initiative in escalating the conflict in this region. We are primarily interested in stabilisation [in Abkhazia]."
But there seems little doubt that Russia is determined to evict Georgian troops from the Kodori gorge. Its aim appears to be to restore the de facto border between Georgia and Abkhazia - and to boost the pro-Russian separatist government based in the seaside town of Sukhumi.
Abkhazia has enjoyed de facto independence since driving Georgian forces out in a 1992-3 civil war. Like South Ossetia, it has received help and assistance from Russia, with most residents now holding Russian passports.
Vladimir Putin recognised Abkhazia as a legal entity in April - a move that enraged Tbilisi, which accused him of trying to annex the territory.
The UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon said he was profoundly concerned over growing tensions in Abkhazia.
Ukraine also warned that it might not allow Russian ships deployed off Abkhazia to return to their base in the Crimea.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 01:04 PM
War in the Caucasus
South Ossetian refugees flee 'living hell'
Tskhinvali residents head north while volunteer fighters circulate rumours of atrocities in the war zone
* Tom Parfitt in Vladikavkaz, North Ossetia
* guardian.co.uk,
* Sunday August 10 2008 17:49 BST
* Article history
Refugees continued to pour out of South Ossetia today, risking snipers, aerial bombardment and tanks to reach safety across the border.
In the centre of Vladikavkaz, the capital of the neighbouring Russian republic of North Ossetia, refugees crowded on to buses to be dispatched to hotels and sanatoria on the Black Sea coast.
There were women holding infants, children and pensioners in nightclothes who fled as Georgian troops entered their villages.
Many had travelled hours across rocky roads through the mountains to escape the war. Alisa Mamiyeva, 26, a teacher at the arts lyceum in the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, said: "I came in the boot of a car. Georgian snipers were firing at us from the forest. I heard the bullets hitting the chassis.
"My brother stayed to fight. Our grandparents' home was turned to rubble. We don't know where they are. Nothing is left of their village. It was totally destroyed by rockets and tank fire."
The Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, visited refugees near Vladikavkaz yesterday, declaring a "humanitarian catastrophe" had taken place. He said 22,000 Ossetian refugees had crossed the border into Russia. Tent camps and a field hospital manned by surgeons and psychologists have been set up close to the border.
Anatoly Gabarayev, 65, a registered schizophrenic who lived alone in Tskhinvali, stood waiting near a bus with two crumpled plastic bags at his feet. "It's a living hell there," he said, looking blankly into the distance. "I got out this morning. A friend found me and brought me out on the back of his motorbike. I was already waiting for death in my basement. The city is in ruins. There are bodies lying in the street."
He added: "All I have left is the clothes I'm standing in and these two bags. My house was wooden; it was turned to splinters by the shells. I climbed out of the ruins. I don't know where I will go. I don't know what to do."
A woman dressed in a nightgown and slippers from Khubis Ubani village said: "I saw our house in flames as we ran. There's nothing left for us to go back to. Our lives are ruined." As she spoke, her elderly husband collapsed to the ground, suffering from a heart condition. Police called an ambulance and he was driven away.
Aelita Dzhioyeva, a lawyer who fled South Ossetia on Thursday, said she had managed to call relatives in the city on their mobile phones. "The situation is dire," she said. "People have no water, no electricity, no gas and no food."
She added: "My relatives told me Georgian soldiers burnt to death a family of seven people in their apartment. An 18-year-old boy who climbed out into the street for a few moments was shot dead by a sniper."
In a suburb of northern Vladikavkaz, hundreds of volunteer fighters gathered at a temporary dispatching point to be loaded onto minibuses bound for Tskhinvali.
In a reference to Georgian traders working in Russia, a sign on the door read: "Ossetian patriots! First let us cleanse our markets of Georgian spies! Then forward to liberate the homeland!"
"We are sending men who have done military service so teenage lads don't go to die," said an army colonel helping coordinate the recruitment process. As he spoke a group of 30 tough-looking fighters in camouflage and webbing trooped out of the yard.
Sasha Khugayev, 48, said he had left South Ossetia on Friday: "In Tskhinvali you can't find one brick standing on top of another. The city is still disputed. There are Georgian strong-points on the hills surrounding it. I'm going back to fight tonight. I've got my own team of guys."
Nearby stood Gennady Dzhioyev, 38, unemployed. He said: "My cousin came from Dmenis village last night. He got two bullets in the back. We're going to go there and slaughter the Georgians like the fascist pigs they are. If the Russians let us we'll smash them all the way to Tbilisi. We are a warrior race, we know how to fight."
To one side Alan Kokoyev, 48, an Ossetian Cossack, calmly cleaned his teeth with a flickknife. "I got here from Tskhinvali this morning," he said. "The Georgians hit our positions with Grad missiles. They surrounded us but we managed to break out. If I'm needed I'll be heading back."
Rumours circulated among the men of atrocities in the war zone, whipping up their desire for action. "A 78-year-old woman with an infant under each arm was crushed by a tank!" cried Kazbek, 45, who also claimed Georgia had released hundreds of criminals to fight in the conflict.
Most volunteer militia are getting to the war zone through the 4km Roki tunnel, the only link between Russia and South Ossetia.
But one man in Vladikavkaz told the Guardian he and friends had commandeered a private helicopter to fly them in to Tskhinvali. "A lot of volunteers are getting held up in the north of the republic but we wanted to get straight to the action," said the man, who called himself Vadik.
Fighters from other warlike north Caucasus republics, such as Chechnya and Dagestan, are though to have crossed mountain passes to join regular Russian troops battling Georgian forces.
Russia yesterday continued to move military hardware towards the conflict zone. In the morning, the Guardian saw a kilometre-long column of more than 60 tanks and armoured cars plus scores of military trucks and tankers moving along the road that joins Chechnya to North Ossetia.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 05:37 PM
U.S.: Russia trying to topple Georgian government
* Story Highlights
* U.S. ambassador to U.N.: Russian official said Georgian president must go
* Russian foreign minister made comment to Condoleezza Rice, ambassador says
* Russian ambassador objects to disclosure of conversation
* U.S. ambassador asks if Russia seeking "regime change;" drawing Russian retort
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The United States on Sunday accused Russia of trying to overthrow the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia, where Russian troops have been battling Georgian forces over the breakaway territory of South Ossetia.
At an emergency session of the United Nations' Security Council, the U.S. alleged Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili "must go."
"This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line," said the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Zalmay Khalilzad, who made the allegation.
In a crackling exchange of a type rarely seen since the end of the Cold War, Khalilzad asked Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin whether the Russians were seeking "regime change" in Georgia with the military operation they launched Friday.
In response, Churkin objected to the disclosure of a confidential phone call between top diplomats and said "regime change" was "an American expression."
The term was one the Bush administration used to describe its goals in the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which Russia opposed. But Churkin said some leaders "become an obstacle" to their own people, and "some situations take courageous decisions with regard to the political future."
"Sometimes there are democratically elected or semi-democratically elected leaders who do things which create grave problems for their countries," Churkin told reporters after the meeting. "So sometimes, those leaders should contemplate how useful they have become to their people."
The pro-Western Saakashvili came to power in Georgia's "Rose Revolution" in 2003 and was elected president in 2004 and 2008. His government has strong U.S. backing, has contributed troops to the American-led war in Iraq and applied for membership in NATO.
Georgia's ambassador, Irakli Alasania, said Churkin's meaning was clear enough.
"For me, it confirms that what the Russian Federation is seeking through this military aggression and invasion is to change the democratically elected Georgian government," Alasania said.
Khalilzad said the United States plans to offer a draft resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire in Georgia, accusing Russian forces of impeding the withdrawal of Georgian troops from the territory. Though Russia could veto the measure in the Security Council, he said Moscow "is on the wrong side here" and risked damaging its ties with Washington and the West.
"The days of overthrowing leaders by military means in Europe -- those days are gone," Khalilzad said.
The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists.
Russia sent tanks to South Ossetia on Friday, saying it wanted to protect its peacekeepers posted there following cease-fires in years past. By Sunday the conflict was raging in other parts of Georgia as well, including another breakaway area, Abkhazia, located in northwestern Georgia.
Each side accused the other of killing large numbers of civilians. Russia said at least 2,000 people have been killed in South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali.
Churkin repeated Russia's position that it is responding to Thursday's Georgian attack on South Ossetia, which, although inside Georgia, has an autonomous government that is backed by Moscow.
Churkin said Russia's military action is a humanitarian campaign aimed at blocking the "ethnic cleansing" of Ossetians by ethnic Georgians.
He also challenged Khalilzad's argument that Russian forces were waging a "campaign of terror" there, essentially telling council members to consider the source.
"This statement, ambassador, is absolutely unacceptable -- particularly from the lips of the permanent representative of a country whose actions we are aware of, including with regard to civilian populations in Iraq and Afghanistan and Serbia," Churkin said.
But Churkin drew a rebuke from other Security Council members, including its current president, after he questioned the objectivity of a top U.N. official who briefed ambassadors on the conflict in Georgia.
The Security Council's president, Belgium's Jan Grauls, said he was "surprised and dismayed" by Churkin's swipe at Lynn Pascoe, the U.N. undersecretary for political affairs.
Churkin said Pascoe's briefing, which included a statement from Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, "shows that the Secretariat of the United Nations and its leadership was not able to adopt that objective position that is required by the substance of this conflict."
CNN's Richard Roth and Joe Vaccarello contributed to this report.
piccadilly
Aug 10 2008, 05:43 PM
Reuters