Russia is growing muscles again. China is cleaning our clock in acquiring dollars and capability. Both are nuclear powers. Why the emphasis on threats from arab countries that added together don't have a world class military force? Anyone got a clue on what we why we are afraid?
I have listened to the discussions on C-SPAN about the direction of the Democrat Party. Frum wants to out-fear Bush. Should the Democrat Party become another GOP War Party? Which party will then point out the difference between getting bin Laden and unnecessary Iraq? The big sell out is on the way.
Full Version: Is Islam greater threat than Russia China?
Common Ground Common Sense > Issues that Affect Our Lives > Foreign Policy and National Defense > Foreign Policy & National Defense Issues Archive
QUOTE(exploring @ Dec 12 2004, 05:12 PM)
Anyone got a clue on what we why we are afraid?
Sorry, make that "Anyone got a clue why we are afraid?"
CSPAN discussions continued today. Big Democrat split on Iraq wa and corporate influence. Inability to decide will limit Party future. Should Dean/Moore/Nader 'anti-Washington/Corporation' views be ridden out of the party? Big things are going on.
China wants to keep us alive so they have a place to sell their products.
Russians love their children and do not have any great love for Islamic Fascism either.
Radical Islam (not ALL of Islam, just a large part of the believers) want to kill as many of us as possible. They are not really worried so much about dying themselves, as is evidenced by their willingness to blow themselves up in suicide attacks. Their goal is to destroy the US and its allies. They believe they can do this by bringing down the world economy. They do not see themselves as being beneficiaries of it. In fact, they see it as a satanic intrusion on the real way to live according to Allah. They believe that the only system of government that man needs is the Islamic system. This is anti-modernism so it matters little to them if all modern convieniences disappear.
They wish to topple the Saudi regime so they can control the oil. By doing this, they can rule the world. They realize that nothing can be done without oil so they would be in charge. Once they are in charge of Saudi they can have the money to win back Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain, France, the entire middle east and control Asia and destroy the US.
That's something more to fear than Russia. Russia does not seek our demise, and neither does China. They seek to rule, but with us still occupying a continent. The Islamic extremists would destroy our continent, or many cities, so that parts of the country would be uninhabitable or simply out of business. They want us to suffer and die in high numbers because to them we are the personification of evil.
Russians love their children and do not have any great love for Islamic Fascism either.
Radical Islam (not ALL of Islam, just a large part of the believers) want to kill as many of us as possible. They are not really worried so much about dying themselves, as is evidenced by their willingness to blow themselves up in suicide attacks. Their goal is to destroy the US and its allies. They believe they can do this by bringing down the world economy. They do not see themselves as being beneficiaries of it. In fact, they see it as a satanic intrusion on the real way to live according to Allah. They believe that the only system of government that man needs is the Islamic system. This is anti-modernism so it matters little to them if all modern convieniences disappear.
They wish to topple the Saudi regime so they can control the oil. By doing this, they can rule the world. They realize that nothing can be done without oil so they would be in charge. Once they are in charge of Saudi they can have the money to win back Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain, France, the entire middle east and control Asia and destroy the US.
That's something more to fear than Russia. Russia does not seek our demise, and neither does China. They seek to rule, but with us still occupying a continent. The Islamic extremists would destroy our continent, or many cities, so that parts of the country would be uninhabitable or simply out of business. They want us to suffer and die in high numbers because to them we are the personification of evil.
QUOTE(heart @ Dec 12 2004, 03:44 PM)
China wants to keep us alive so they have a place to sell their products.
Russians love their children and do not have any great love for Islamic Fascism either.
Radical Islam (not ALL of Islam, just a large part of the believers) want to kill as many of us as possible. They are not really worried so much about dying themselves, as is evidenced by their willingness to blow themselves up in suicide attacks. Their goal is to destroy the US and its allies. They believe they can do this by bringing down the world economy. They do not see themselves as being beneficiaries of it. In fact, they see it as a satanic intrusion on the real way to live according to Allah. They believe that the only system of government that man needs is the Islamic system. This is anti-modernism so it matters little to them if all modern convieniences disappear.
They wish to topple the Saudi regime so they can control the oil. By doing this, they can rule the world. They realize that nothing can be done without oil so they would be in charge. Once they are in charge of Saudi they can have the money to win back Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain, France, the entire middle east and control Asia and destroy the US.
That's something more to fear than Russia. Russia does not seek our demise, and neither does China. They seek to rule, but with us still occupying a continent. The Islamic extremists would destroy our continent, or many cities, so that parts of the country would be uninhabitable or simply out of business. They want us to suffer and die in high numbers because to them we are the personification of evil.
Russians love their children and do not have any great love for Islamic Fascism either.
Radical Islam (not ALL of Islam, just a large part of the believers) want to kill as many of us as possible. They are not really worried so much about dying themselves, as is evidenced by their willingness to blow themselves up in suicide attacks. Their goal is to destroy the US and its allies. They believe they can do this by bringing down the world economy. They do not see themselves as being beneficiaries of it. In fact, they see it as a satanic intrusion on the real way to live according to Allah. They believe that the only system of government that man needs is the Islamic system. This is anti-modernism so it matters little to them if all modern convieniences disappear.
They wish to topple the Saudi regime so they can control the oil. By doing this, they can rule the world. They realize that nothing can be done without oil so they would be in charge. Once they are in charge of Saudi they can have the money to win back Kashmir, Chechnya, Spain, France, the entire middle east and control Asia and destroy the US.
That's something more to fear than Russia. Russia does not seek our demise, and neither does China. They seek to rule, but with us still occupying a continent. The Islamic extremists would destroy our continent, or many cities, so that parts of the country would be uninhabitable or simply out of business. They want us to suffer and die in high numbers because to them we are the personification of evil.
You make an excellent point which I think a lot of people on this board do not either realize or take seriously.
During the cold war the communist wanted worldly power and dominion though converting the world to their social/economic system. The communist wanted the world to continue, only with the social/economic structure to adhere to their ideology.
Radical Islam wants to destroy western civilization. There is no place in radical Islam for the dissident or the protestor. The very people in the west complaining of the war on radical Islam would be the first people radical Islam would desire to purge from existence. Intolerance is viewed as a virtue by radical Islam. To radical Islam, the only good people are radical Islamist.
QUOTE(Marine @ Dec 12 2004, 08:38 PM)
Radical Islam wants to destroy western civilization. There is no place in radical Islam for the dissident or the protestor. The very people in the west complaining of the war on radical Islam would be the first people radical Islam would desire to purge from existence. Intolerance is viewed as a virtue by radical Islam. To radical Islam, the only good people are radical Islamist.
There is somewhat of a disconnect here. They might have dreams but no capability. All of the other major powers already have advanced nuclear and military capability. How do they plan on taking over the world with car bombs and box cutters? Their threat is demographics. Then their weapon of our mass destruction is our reliance on the pill and the scapel to decrease our population. Perhaps western civilization is destroying itself.
Perhaps western civilization is "destroying itself" but there is no need to see to it that this is furthered along...we can leave that to the end-time people. I don't see how decrying western civilization instead of seeking to protect and defend it is doing much more than pushing for it's demise so you can say, "see I told you so". There is no one-upsmanship in a nuclear or bio/chem disaster.
The radical islamists do not need to be able to launch a nuclear weapon like the soviets did. They need one suitcase bomb to come into port on a ship in a major city. There is a high likelyhood that they are trying to do this. Enriched uranium is available and all it will take is the right person meeting with the right person. We are vulnerable.
They could also overthrow Pakistan, because so many people (like 72%) think highly of Osama bin Ladan, and the large majority of Pak's are educated in Madrasas, that teach only how to memorize the Quran, but little else that is a big vulnerablity. Musharef has already survived 2 attempted assasinations; not mention that he is not elected, and not liked in his own country for supporting the USA. All those years that the Pak's allowed the public television to focus hate on the USA, just like in most of the Middle East, is coming back to haunt them and us.
They will get what they need to attack us again. I think every terrorism expert agrees that it is not "if" but "when". Time is running, and we have to turn these countries around before it's too late. We are failing miserably. My prediction is that eventually, in our lifetime or our kids, if Islam does not undergo a reformation (which is happening), then it will be the Chinese and the Islamic world in control. The Chinese will not have a battle of conscience about dealing with the world like we do. If they were fighting the radical Islamists....well...just look up Thailand's treatment of radical islamists and you will get the idea how they do it...it's not pretty and it makes Abu Graib look like child's play.
I hope that we embark on a better PR campaign soon, destroy the radicals or at least contain them, convert the convertable to a reformative Islam, and fight the ones that we can't convert. I don't know if I see that happening, but many reforms are taking place. A large part of the Islamic world have been alientated by the terrorists attacks they have seen. I remains to be seen whether Al Jazeera and worse, wins the battle for hearts and minds, or if more tolerant and sensible heads prevail.
The radical islamists do not need to be able to launch a nuclear weapon like the soviets did. They need one suitcase bomb to come into port on a ship in a major city. There is a high likelyhood that they are trying to do this. Enriched uranium is available and all it will take is the right person meeting with the right person. We are vulnerable.
They could also overthrow Pakistan, because so many people (like 72%) think highly of Osama bin Ladan, and the large majority of Pak's are educated in Madrasas, that teach only how to memorize the Quran, but little else that is a big vulnerablity. Musharef has already survived 2 attempted assasinations; not mention that he is not elected, and not liked in his own country for supporting the USA. All those years that the Pak's allowed the public television to focus hate on the USA, just like in most of the Middle East, is coming back to haunt them and us.
They will get what they need to attack us again. I think every terrorism expert agrees that it is not "if" but "when". Time is running, and we have to turn these countries around before it's too late. We are failing miserably. My prediction is that eventually, in our lifetime or our kids, if Islam does not undergo a reformation (which is happening), then it will be the Chinese and the Islamic world in control. The Chinese will not have a battle of conscience about dealing with the world like we do. If they were fighting the radical Islamists....well...just look up Thailand's treatment of radical islamists and you will get the idea how they do it...it's not pretty and it makes Abu Graib look like child's play.
I hope that we embark on a better PR campaign soon, destroy the radicals or at least contain them, convert the convertable to a reformative Islam, and fight the ones that we can't convert. I don't know if I see that happening, but many reforms are taking place. A large part of the Islamic world have been alientated by the terrorists attacks they have seen. I remains to be seen whether Al Jazeera and worse, wins the battle for hearts and minds, or if more tolerant and sensible heads prevail.
QUOTE(exploring @ Dec 12 2004, 08:56 PM)
There is somewhat of a disconnect here. They might have dreams but no capability. All of the other major powers already have advanced nuclear and military capability. How do they plan on taking over the world with car bombs and box cutters? Their threat is demographics. Then their weapon of our mass destruction is our reliance on the pill and the scapel to decrease our population. Perhaps western civilization is destroying itself.
Iran is advancing its capabilities quickly and Bush focused his attention on Iraq, it would be very dangerous to underestimate Iran. The radical Islamacists also have a great propaganda machine, a lot of uneducated and very angry poor people and access to pretty signifcant financial assets. Their greatest assets in the US are Bush as President and the Extreme Fundamentalist Christian Right movement (fabulous recruiting tool, additional evidence of the US lead Christian Crusades).
-Pamela, who does not fail to see the irony that Bush claims to be trying to free the Iraqi's from the Islamic version of what he's trying to do here
QUOTE(exploring @ Dec 12 2004, 07:56 PM)
There is somewhat of a disconnect here. They might have dreams but no capability. All of the other major powers already have advanced nuclear and military capability. How do they plan on taking over the world with car bombs and box cutters? Their threat is demographics. Then their weapon of our mass destruction is our reliance on the pill and the scapel to decrease our population. Perhaps western civilization is destroying itself.
When your house is but on trade and economies -missiles and nukes are not needed.
destroy the financial system destroy the world
QUOTE(exploring @ Dec 12 2004, 06:56 PM)
There is somewhat of a disconnect here. They might have dreams but no capability. All of the other major powers already have advanced nuclear and military capability. How do they plan on taking over the world with car bombs and box cutters? Their threat is demographics. Then their weapon of our mass destruction is our reliance on the pill and the scapel to decrease our population. Perhaps western civilization is destroying itself.
I don't see a disconnect that "if" the radical Islamist could get a hold of any one of a number of weapons of mass destruction that they would actually enjoy using it on London, New York, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, Paris, Rome, or any other mass population center to acheive their ends.
Would you doubt that "if" the radical Islamist were able to obtain a thermo-nuclear device they would hesitate to detonated it in New York City? I believe they not only would be no hesitation on their part but they would celebrate in doing it.
Likewise, "if" they were able to obtain poison gases or pathologic biological agents there would be no hesitation to use them against western civilization.
I don't believe the threat is demographics because I believe the vast majority of Muslims are decent people. People who just want to live their lives in peace and be left alone to enjoy life. The radical Islamist are as great an enemy to true Muslims as they are to us.
Islam is not a serious threat. Their attacks are pinpricks. Their only power is the oil they are sitting on. Because they mostly study the Koran, they do not have the scientific base or the natural resourses to be a real threat. They are a backwater of the world. If not for the oil, no one would even care about them. The only thing that scares me is that we are becoming like them. The growing number of people in this country who distain science and rely on the Bible is really scarry to our civilization. Even an attack on our economy would be temporary. we would recover because of our resourses and our brain power which is being utilized efficiently. They cant really beat us. they can only scare us if we allow it to happen.
QUOTE(david sobien @ Dec 12 2004, 08:40 PM)
Islam is not a serious threat. Their attacks are pinpricks. Their only power is the oil they are sitting on. Because they mostly study the Koran, they do not have the scientific base or the natural resourses to be a real threat. They are a backwater of the world. If not for the oil, no one would even care about them. The only thing that scares me is that we are becoming like them. The growing number of people in this country who distain science and rely on the Bible is really scarry to our civilization. Even an attack on our economy would be temporary. we would recover because of our resourses and our brain power which is being utilized efficiently. They cant really beat us. they can only scare us if we allow it to happen.
So the Pakistanis are just bluffing about already having nuclear weapons? I guess India can use this advice to stop worrying about getting nuked and can dispose of their nuclear weapons.
Making the assumption that brown skinned people aren't smart enough to make an atomic bomb is something I would call as being a bigot. I don't think you really meant it that way David, did you?
What I was saying is that they send their children to study the Koran and ours go to college. It is not a matter of being smart or dumb. It is a matter of the alociation of resourses and culltural differences. In addition they do not have the natural resourses in the middle east to challange western civilization. I would be more worried about China who has a dedication to education and the natural resourses base to be a problem. No one is worried about the Islamic Navy attacking the US. They do not have one for good reason. They are no threat to western civilization.
That's such utter and total horsepuckey I can hardly believe you are a damn pilot! You know, it's not the half literate that we are talking about here. Sure, the stupid Taliban are like that, but Osama bin Laden is from a wealthy family, and an educated man who has a degree in civil engineering. His second in command is a Doctor from Egypt. The hijackers of 911 almost all came from the middle to upper classes of society. You have NO IDEA how many chemists, engineers, computer scientists and other heavy duty math professionals the Arab world produces and MANY of them go to school in the west, but even Baghdad university or University of Cairo are extremely good schools. So are the schools in India....these people are taught math and science to the point where by the time they reach the end of primary school they know as much as our high school graduates. You have no idea how difficult it is to pass your exams in the Middle East. Have you EVER been there? I KNOW these people....I know the ones that have never left there AND the gazillion that we teach right here in our own universities. I go to school and see them, talk to them and work with them every day. They are not likely to be able to stay here. They will go home and languish with no work in their home countries.
One of my dearest freinds has a degree in Artificial Intelligence, and she knows other people who do not feel as "american" friendly as she is BUT they are just as educated as she is.
I can't believe the repeated lack of credit you continue to give to the Middle East David. The Middle East has a two-tiered class system. You are right that the poor and iliterate are not cabable of caring out more than the actual delivery system (remember Mohommed al Salami, the guy that tried to get the refund on the rental truck he used to blow up the world trade center the first time? Yeah, not the brightest light on the tree, I'll admit, but it didn't take much smarts now did it?). The other class in the Middle East is about equally divided in their hatred of the West or love of it. It will take only a handful of those people, the educated, the good recon people, the logistics people, and a bit of hob-nobbing with the criminal underground weapons market to carry out any attack they want to. It's not a question of lack of talent at all.
Such bigotry and underestimation of what we face will be the death of us.
Please stop saying "Islam"...Islam is not the problem, it's the Islamic Extremists that are the problem. I admit they are a large segment, but let's not tar everyone with the same brush please.
One of my dearest freinds has a degree in Artificial Intelligence, and she knows other people who do not feel as "american" friendly as she is BUT they are just as educated as she is.
I can't believe the repeated lack of credit you continue to give to the Middle East David. The Middle East has a two-tiered class system. You are right that the poor and iliterate are not cabable of caring out more than the actual delivery system (remember Mohommed al Salami, the guy that tried to get the refund on the rental truck he used to blow up the world trade center the first time? Yeah, not the brightest light on the tree, I'll admit, but it didn't take much smarts now did it?). The other class in the Middle East is about equally divided in their hatred of the West or love of it. It will take only a handful of those people, the educated, the good recon people, the logistics people, and a bit of hob-nobbing with the criminal underground weapons market to carry out any attack they want to. It's not a question of lack of talent at all.
Such bigotry and underestimation of what we face will be the death of us.
Please stop saying "Islam"...Islam is not the problem, it's the Islamic Extremists that are the problem. I admit they are a large segment, but let's not tar everyone with the same brush please.
QUOTE(david sobien @ Dec 12 2004, 08:40 PM)
Islam is not a serious threat. Their attacks are pinpricks. Their only power is the oil they are sitting on. Because they mostly study the Koran, they do not have the scientific base or the natural resourses to be a real threat. They are a backwater of the world. If not for the oil, no one would even care about them. The only thing that scares me is that we are becoming like them. The growing number of people in this country who distain science and rely on the Bible is really scarry to our civilization. Even an attack on our economy would be temporary. we would recover because of our resourses and our brain power which is being utilized efficiently. They cant really beat us. they can only scare us if we allow it to happen.
Thanks....for your comment, I agree with you! If we would leave the Muslims alone, they would not be dangerous, at least, for our Western culture!
the end of the Palestinian problem would be already a big step forward, if Americans would stop their biaised ingerence. The attack on Irak (trying to get their oil) put everybody in danger, in the USA and in Europe(the reluctant allies, at least). How do you explain, that France or Germany, with a lot of Muslims, are not attacked?????? they know how to manage the situation without humiliating the Arabs (or at least, they try!)
Some think that Muslims want the world to adopt their religion......I would say that Christians fundamentalists are more dangerous, for our culture, because of intolerance to others.
We had centuries of occupation by Arabs, in old Europe (ending with the battle of Poitiers in 732, where Charles Martel ended the Muslim occupation) and nobody was forced to convert to Mahomet. This was a reason, they lost, by the way!
religion was always the motivation for endless wars, over the centuries...... and I am afraid, nobody learned the lesson.
not afraid of russia??? speak for yourself.
perhaps the difference between us in this matter is i don't get my news from us media. try listning to putin, foreign affairs people, other politicians and officials, polls.
right, a country with 70% of it's population depressed that considers persecution of anyone based on anything a cultural event, with an economical nightmare, regime near dictatorship, controlled media, powerful maffia, and an underpayed, fustrated military that lacking better, idolizes su era and tries desperately gain/hold his influence over what it considers illegally taken away by insurgents...
mmm.. elections in ukraine... what has the future in store for us?
perhaps the difference between us in this matter is i don't get my news from us media. try listning to putin, foreign affairs people, other politicians and officials, polls.
right, a country with 70% of it's population depressed that considers persecution of anyone based on anything a cultural event, with an economical nightmare, regime near dictatorship, controlled media, powerful maffia, and an underpayed, fustrated military that lacking better, idolizes su era and tries desperately gain/hold his influence over what it considers illegally taken away by insurgents...
mmm.. elections in ukraine... what has the future in store for us?
QUOTE(david sobien @ Dec 13 2004, 01:08 AM)
What I was saying is that they send their children to study the Koran and ours go to college. It is not a matter of being smart or dumb. It is a matter of the alociation of resourses and culltural differences. In addition they do not have the natural resourses in the middle east to challange western civilization. I would be more worried about China who has a dedication to education and the natural resourses base to be a problem. No one is worried about the Islamic Navy attacking the US. They do not have one for good reason. They are no threat to western civilization.
You're making some very great and naive assumptions. The radicals/fanatics are not those who have the financial luxury of studying the Koran for a living (and who may live and "orthodox" life but do not go around perverting their religion to preach hate), they are a mix of college students who have bought into propaganda and the poor illiterate people who are easy prey/pawns.
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