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BNW
i just read part of an http://www.latimes.com/ article, Killings Sting Proud Battalion, that reminded me of Apocalypse Now, in which the rational, civilized military chiefs of the u.s. brand the enemy as irrational and barbaric while denying any irrationality or barbarism in their own military campaigns. at least, that's how Apocalypse Now presents it, on my interpretation.

Experts in military history say they cannot recall another case where so many members from a single unit were charged with so many killings in so short a period. In all, a dozen American servicemen in Iraq have been charged with killing civilians. During the Vietnam War, 122 servicemen were convicted of killing noncombatants.

Some military legal experts say the killing of civilians — whether accidental or intentional — can be expected in a war where insurgents use terrorist tactics such as car and roadside bombs, while also blending in with civilians and firing from mosques, schools and hospitals.

"The circumstances in Iraq are novel," said Eugene Fidell, a lawyer who has represented soldiers and directs the National Institute for Military Justice. "We have unusual, asymmetrical warfare and fairly insane behavior by an enemy that blatantly violates the laws of war."
grammydidi
QUOTE(BNW @ Dec 13 2004, 08:25 AM)
...................
"The circumstances in Iraq are novel," said Eugene Fidell, a lawyer who has represented soldiers and directs the National Institute for Military Justice. "We have unusual, asymmetrical warfare and fairly insane behavior by an enemy that blatantly violates the laws of war."[/i]
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The so-called great minds who planned this stupid war should have taken this fact into account. What did they think was going to happen????? That all the soldiers on the other side were going follow the rules of gentlemanly war?

Maybe Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and all the others should challenge their leaders to individual duels, with one-shot pistols. Zell Miller could be the referee.
BNW
QUOTE(grammydidi @ Dec 13 2004, 06:31 AM)
The so-called great minds who planned this stupid war should have taken this fact into account.  What did they think was going to happen?????  That all the soldiers on the other side were going follow the rules of gentlemanly war? 

Maybe Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and all the others should challenge their leaders to individual duels, with one-shot pistols.  Zell Miller could be the referee.
*
two sad facts:

(1) the circumstances are not novel, look at Vietnam and the French-Algerian war (see the movie, Battle of Algiers)

(2) soldiers take the blame: "During the Vietnam War, 122 servicemen were convicted of killing noncombatants." how many military chiefs were convicted?
progressivephoenix
Maybe this is exactly what they wanted.

QUOTE(grammydidi @ Dec 13 2004, 06:31 AM)
The so-called great minds who planned this stupid war should have taken this fact into account.  What did they think was going to happen?????  That all the soldiers on the other side were going follow the rules of gentlemanly war? 

Maybe Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and all the others should challenge their leaders to individual duels, with one-shot pistols.  Zell Miller could be the referee.
*
Marine
Documented Iraqi Use of Chemical Weapons

Aug 1983
Hajj Umran
Mustard
fewer than 100
Iranians/Kurds

Oct-Nov 1983
Panjwin
Mustard
3,000
Iranian/Kurds

Feb-Mar 1984
Majnoon Island
Mustard
2,500
Iranians

Mar 1984
al-Basrah
Tabun
50 to 100
Iranians

Mar 1985
Hawizah Marsh
Mustard/Tabun
3,000
Iranians

Feb 1986
al-Faw
Mustard/Tabun
8,000 to 10,000
Iranians

Dec 1986
Umm ar Rasas
Mustard
thousands
Iranians

Apr 1987
al-Basrah
Mustard/Tabun
5,000
Iranians

Oct 1987
Sumar/Mehran
Mustard/nerve agents
3,000
Iranians

Mar 1988
Halabjah
Mustard/nerve agents
hundreds
Iranians/Kurds

http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Ir...ct_2002.htm#toc

Iraqi-Acknowledged Open-Air Testing of Biological Weapons

Al Muhammadiyat – Mar 1988
Bacillus subtilis[5]
250-gauge bomb (cap. 65 liters)

Al Muhammadiyat – Mar 1988
Botulinum toxin
250-gauge bomb (cap. 65 liters)

Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989
Bacillus subtilis
122mm rocket (cap. 8 liters)

Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989
Botulinum toxin
122mm rocket (cap. 8 liters)

Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989
Aflatoxin
122mm rocket (cap. 8 liters)

Khan Bani Saad – Aug 1988
Bacillus subtilis
aerosol generator – Mi-2 helicopter with modified agricultural spray equipment

Al Muhammadiyat – Dec 1989
Bacillus subtilis
R-400 bomb (cap. 85 liters)

Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989
Botulinum toxin
R-400 bomb (cap. 85 liters)

Al Muhammadiyat – Nov 1989
Aflatoxin
R-400 bomb (cap. 85 liters)

Jurf al-Sakr Firing Range – Sep 1989
Ricin
155mm artillery shell (cap. 3 liters)

Abu Obeydi Airfield – Dec 1990
Water
Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)

Abu Obeydi Airfield – Dec 1990
Water/potassium permanganate
Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)

Abu Obeydi Airfield – Jan 1991
Water/glycerine
Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)

Abu Obeydi Airfield – Jan 1991
Bacillus subtilis/Glycerine
Modified Mirage F1 drop-tank (cap. 2,200 liters)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Ir...ct_2002.htm#toc

[1] Mustard is a blister agent that causes medical casualties by blistering or burning exposed skin, eyes, lungs, and mucus membranes within hours of exposure. It is a persistent agent that can remain a hazard for days.

[2] Sarin, cyclosarin, and tabun are G-series nerve agents that can act within seconds of absorption through the skin or inhalation. These agents overstimulate muscles or glands with messages transmitted from nerves, causing convulsions and loss of consciousness. Tabun is persistent and can remain a hazard for days. Sarin and cyclosarin are not persistent and pose more of an inhalation hazard than a skin hazard.

[3] VX is a V-series nerve agent that is similar to but more advanced than G-series nerve agents in that it causes the same medical effects but is more toxic and much more persistent. Thus, it poses a far greater skin hazard than G-series agents. VX could be used for long-term contamination of territory.

[4] See footnote 5.

[5] Bacillus subtilis is commonly used as a simulant for B. anthracis.

[6] An infectious dose of anthrax is about 8,000 spores, or less than one-millionth of a gram in a non immuno-compromised person. Inhalation anthrax historically has been 100 percent fatal within five to seven days, although in recent cases aggressive medical treatment has reduced the fatality rate.

[7] Ricin can cause multiple organ failure within one or two days after inhalation.
amy
QUOTE(progressivephoenix @ Dec 13 2004, 11:37 AM)
Maybe this is exactly what they wanted.
*


I always find you opinions well thought out PP. Why would the powers in the White House want to engage in this type of war, knowing the potential for chaos, the unexpected?
poetpj
for all the stated reasons of this war... saddam hussein was not going away, and he was trying to find ways to circumvent the sanctions that many nations wanted to end... I am not a big fan of this messy war.
But, as long as saddam stayed in power, and if the sanctions had been cut or eliminated, we probably still would have ended up fighting there again, but against a re-arming Iraq...
The iraqi regime was probably also playing a game of "guess what we have" as far as arms, to keep potential foes guessing... vis a vis Iran and the U.S.
That doesn't mean we necessarily had to go to war when we did, but if sanctions had been reduced, as many nations who desired to receive Iragi oil wanted, it is very likely Saddam would have tried another very aggressive attack somewhere, as his nation re-armed itself... and as saddam demonstrated in the first gulf war, he was more than willing to try to attack Israel to attempt to create conflict across the region.
The one thing that saddam did not tolerate was opposition to his regime on his own soil and this is likely why his regime rebuffed contacts from Al Quaida. Because of the fundamentalist nature of Al Quaida, he did not want them in his country during his rule.
Al Quaida has used the deposing of saddam to becoming active in Iraq.
The problem seems that western military minds want to demonstrate direct linkage between nations, groups, and causes that oppose our viewpoints. In a situation like Iraq, and across the middle-east, groups will work on different fronts for the same general cause without direct linkage together because of common goals. But it all looks the same to us, when it is not.
Without direct intelligence, we cannot know for sure which groups are working hand in glove together, though working in the same direction... and that is the problem...
peace...
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